I noticed where an Air Force Academy kid was doing quite well in the GCL. I didn't think those guys could get out of their committment unless they were inordinately tall or otherwise had a special circumstance etc. --- anyone know?
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I'd say being drafted counts as a special circumstance. 
With respect, JW, I doubt a young man who didn't get a place at the service academy and wanted a career in the armed forces would agree with you.
AcademyDad has a thread going in the General section about his son and the GCL.
AcademyDad has a thread going in the General section about his son and the GCL.
quote:I noticed where an Air Force Academy kid was doing quite well in the GCL. I didn't think those guys could get out of their committment
Officer Karl Bolt, Is stationed in Tampa.
Still Fulfilling his commitment to the Armed Forces at this time.
Orlando with respect, Do you think of the Thousands of Cadets that are out there.
That Officer Bolt took that Oppurtunity away from said young man.
Also Officer Bolt could do more for Moral and Honer being an Officer in the MLB, Then anything he could do Stationed over sea's. JMHO.
EH
quote:Originally posted by J.Weaver #5:
I'd say being drafted counts as a special circumstance.
Getting drafted is wonderful, but IMO, there are many things in life much more important than playing baseball.
EH, Orlando brings up a good point.
Of course there are things more important, but it would still count as a special circumstance, in my opinion.
Apparently the school felt the same way?
Apparently the school felt the same way?
TPM, Yes Orlando bring's up a good point.
Just not with this Young Gentlemen.
How many Cadets Fail, Or Get in trouble with Academic's.
Those cadets took a spot from somebody deserving a spot.
Like I said Officer Bolt is still fulfilling his commitment.
Not only that But if Ordered anywhere in the World.
Officer Bolt would Be there, No questions asked.
With No Regrets, It would be his Honer to serve as he is now.
JMHO.
EH
Just not with this Young Gentlemen.
How many Cadets Fail, Or Get in trouble with Academic's.
Those cadets took a spot from somebody deserving a spot.
Like I said Officer Bolt is still fulfilling his commitment.
Not only that But if Ordered anywhere in the World.
Officer Bolt would Be there, No questions asked.
With No Regrets, It would be his Honer to serve as he is now.
JMHO.
EH
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Sadly, I think the aspect that gets lost in this story is the fact that the young man has no intention of not fully fulfilling and honoring his military comittment in WHATEVER capacity that his superiors choose, and whenever and wherever they choose. So far his only "crime" is that he took his responsibility to win ballgames for the Air Force Academy too seriously, worked too hard, got too good and in the process gave himself and the military too many options. Sad when that is considered the WRONG thing to do.
Sadly if those who pass judgement knew him they would understand the situation better. I have known him peripherally for a few years and he is honorable, comitted and about as fine a young man as you will EVER, EVER meet on any level you choose. I think without knowing him and his family you cannot understand what a fine representative he is of the military and of us, and how much he values and takes his position seriously as does his family. I can assure you that he is not looking for "a way out." I can assure you that he is the not the selfish me first athlete that he is made out to be by some and that we are so accustomed to seeing. There are many ways to serve your contry, Might it just be that he can do 100 times more good as a semi-public figure representing the military than he ever could handling logistics?.
I assure you that he will serve, and he will serve with great distinction. The question is when, where, and in what capacity or package of capacities the military, not you, not me, sees best for him. He was brought into the academy in part because is athletically gifted and he was offered the opportunity to see how far that gift will take him, and in this capacity has given the military this option and this profile. So far all he has done is ask, and his superiors so far have agreed that it is in the best interest of their departments to let his baseball progress.
It will continue to be up to his superiors to decide if he is of more use to the nation in the "David Robinson" mode, or some other. That is their choice. He is not a villian for working hard, following his God given talent and giving his superiors that that option. I respectfully submit that where he can be best ultilzed is best left to those who make those decisions.
I only wish those who pass judgement on him knew him personally. As I've said his only crime is giving the military to many options.
I expected he would encounter resistence in the blather of sensationalist media, I had expected that he would be treated better here...
44
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Sadly, I think the aspect that gets lost in this story is the fact that the young man has no intention of not fully fulfilling and honoring his military comittment in WHATEVER capacity that his superiors choose, and whenever and wherever they choose. So far his only "crime" is that he took his responsibility to win ballgames for the Air Force Academy too seriously, worked too hard, got too good and in the process gave himself and the military too many options. Sad when that is considered the WRONG thing to do.
Sadly if those who pass judgement knew him they would understand the situation better. I have known him peripherally for a few years and he is honorable, comitted and about as fine a young man as you will EVER, EVER meet on any level you choose. I think without knowing him and his family you cannot understand what a fine representative he is of the military and of us, and how much he values and takes his position seriously as does his family. I can assure you that he is not looking for "a way out." I can assure you that he is the not the selfish me first athlete that he is made out to be by some and that we are so accustomed to seeing. There are many ways to serve your contry, Might it just be that he can do 100 times more good as a semi-public figure representing the military than he ever could handling logistics?.
I assure you that he will serve, and he will serve with great distinction. The question is when, where, and in what capacity or package of capacities the military, not you, not me, sees best for him. He was brought into the academy in part because is athletically gifted and he was offered the opportunity to see how far that gift will take him, and in this capacity has given the military this option and this profile. So far all he has done is ask, and his superiors so far have agreed that it is in the best interest of their departments to let his baseball progress.
It will continue to be up to his superiors to decide if he is of more use to the nation in the "David Robinson" mode, or some other. That is their choice. He is not a villian for working hard, following his God given talent and giving his superiors that that option. I respectfully submit that where he can be best ultilzed is best left to those who make those decisions.
I only wish those who pass judgement on him knew him personally. As I've said his only crime is giving the military to many options.
I expected he would encounter resistence in the blather of sensationalist media, I had expected that he would be treated better here...
44
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quote:Also Officer Bolt could do more for Moral and Honer being an Officer in the MLB, Then anything he could do Stationed over sea's. JMHO.
WOW! Now THAT is one heck of a statement! I'm sure that all of our service men and woman who are putting their lives on the line everyday overseas would be happy to know that they could be viewed as having more honor by playing baseball back in the USA than serving their country overseas!
To be clear, I do not know Officer Bolt or his family aside from what is written here on the HSBB site. Also, a huge congrats to him for being drafted by MLB. Hey, I'm a Philly gal myself...and Officer Bolt is one of MY guys now! I do not wish him anything but good luck, health and fortune in whatever direction his professional career takes him...whether on the baseball field or the military...or both!
However, to say that Mr. Bolt's contribution on the baseball field carries more honor and morale than anything he could do stationed overseas is a disservice to all of our fine men and women who have made that commitment and have put themselves in harms way in carrying out their duty. As much as we all love baseball, and it plays an important role in all of our lives on this sight...and regardless of political stances....I would think that most of us value and respect our servicemen and women and the sacrifices they make on our behalf. They deserve better than the above statement....JMO.
Considering Officer Bolt's commitment to the military and the type of young man so many have said he is...I would think that he himself would never place himself in the category of having more honor than his fellow soldiers either....regardless of WHERE he serves and in whatever capacity.
mrmom,
O44,
Just explained about as well as anybody could.
Great Testimonial Sir.
EH
quote:anyone know?
O44,
Just explained about as well as anybody could.
Great Testimonial Sir.
EH
luvbb,
You are correct in your Statement.
Although I did not mean it that way.
And there's know way that anything we do in baseball compare's to what are service member's are going thru with honor.
No arguement here.
EH
You are correct in your Statement.
Although I did not mean it that way.
And there's know way that anything we do in baseball compare's to what are service member's are going thru with honor.
No arguement here.
EH
Well said, luvbb.
We all love baseball here, but it is still a game and an entertainment at the professional level.
Being one of the 4100+ minor league ballplayers is about as semi-public as you can get. (As the 66er's fan t-shirt says --- 'all guts, no glory'.)
I'm not sure how observer44 thinks that the young man has been portrayed as a 'villain' here; observer certainly doth protest way too much.
I wonder if there would be such adamant support for the postponing of an armed forces career by a recent academy graduate in wartime if one was an American Idol finalist who wanted to pursue, instead, a singing career.
We all love baseball here, but it is still a game and an entertainment at the professional level.
Being one of the 4100+ minor league ballplayers is about as semi-public as you can get. (As the 66er's fan t-shirt says --- 'all guts, no glory'.)
I'm not sure how observer44 thinks that the young man has been portrayed as a 'villain' here; observer certainly doth protest way too much.
I wonder if there would be such adamant support for the postponing of an armed forces career by a recent academy graduate in wartime if one was an American Idol finalist who wanted to pursue, instead, a singing career.
Orlando, and luvbb.
I do understand where your coming from, And I'm not the one to make a statement.
I'm not articulate enough to explain??
And I'm not here to speak for anybody, These are my thought's and mine only.
Just please do not Question this young man's Character or his commitment to his Duty.
I'm proud of him.
As I hope his fellow Officer's and enlisted men are proud of him.
And if for some reason it boost's morale and fellow Service personal are Honored to have one of there own Represent them in some small capacity.
I feel thats a good thing.
It's just my opinion.
And I apologize if I did not convey my message clearly enough.
EH
I do understand where your coming from, And I'm not the one to make a statement.
I'm not articulate enough to explain??
And I'm not here to speak for anybody, These are my thought's and mine only.
Just please do not Question this young man's Character or his commitment to his Duty.
I'm proud of him.
As I hope his fellow Officer's and enlisted men are proud of him.
And if for some reason it boost's morale and fellow Service personal are Honored to have one of there own Represent them in some small capacity.
I feel thats a good thing.
It's just my opinion.
And I apologize if I did not convey my message clearly enough.
EH
playing MiLB .. very cool
Academy grad - Air Force Officer .. honor
some who see those career paths on the same level may well have precluded an intelligent discussion
I think we'll see things work thru and this young young man will be fine
and btw, I could not speak for the thoughts & intentions of my own children with the assurance O44/EH have on someone they've never met or "known peripherally"
what is known peripherally anyway?
Academy grad - Air Force Officer .. honor
some who see those career paths on the same level may well have precluded an intelligent discussion
I think we'll see things work thru and this young young man will be fine
and btw, I could not speak for the thoughts & intentions of my own children with the assurance O44/EH have on someone they've never met or "known peripherally"
what is known peripherally anyway?
quote:by Orlando: Being one of the 4100+ minor league ballplayers is about as semi-public as you can get
EH/44
I don't think that ANYONE ever questioned character or giving up total commitment or Bolt being portrayed as a villan, those statements are UNFAIR. Let's not get what's really important confused here, that's the point. We all know it takes a special person to be accepted into the service academies.
My reply was about JWeaver's comments. Baseball is a great game, and getting drafted is wonderful and cool but not a great honor. Serving your country is a great honor not playing baseball. In reality it is a job, just like serving your country is a job. One job certainly has a lot more appeal than the other, but one is a lot more important than the other, that's where some people have this issue confused. IMO.
Whatever the decision that will be made by his superiors will be in his best interest. But to suggest it is more important for him to play baseball now, well some may not agree and do not have to agree with that statement. As I said no one has ever questioned his character.
Let's bring our troops home so they can watch a baseball game while sitting in the stands. That would certainly boost morale.
JMO.
I don't think that ANYONE ever questioned character or giving up total commitment or Bolt being portrayed as a villan, those statements are UNFAIR. Let's not get what's really important confused here, that's the point. We all know it takes a special person to be accepted into the service academies.
My reply was about JWeaver's comments. Baseball is a great game, and getting drafted is wonderful and cool but not a great honor. Serving your country is a great honor not playing baseball. In reality it is a job, just like serving your country is a job. One job certainly has a lot more appeal than the other, but one is a lot more important than the other, that's where some people have this issue confused. IMO.
Whatever the decision that will be made by his superiors will be in his best interest. But to suggest it is more important for him to play baseball now, well some may not agree and do not have to agree with that statement. As I said no one has ever questioned his character.
Let's bring our troops home so they can watch a baseball game while sitting in the stands. That would certainly boost morale.
JMO.
quote:Just please do not Question this young man's Character or his commitment to his Duty.
If you re-read my post, you will clearly see that I did neither of the above, and actually made a point to state that in my post. What I DID do was question a statement posted by you. You have stated that your intent was not conveyed by the words you chose...I will take your word for that.
Bee
I never said I never met the young man.
And i'm sure that O44 has met Him also in a round about way?
Thats why i'm so Proud of him.
luvbb,
[qoute] You have stated that your intent was not conveyed by the words you chose...I will take your word for that.[/qoute] Thank You
EH
quote:and btw, I could not speak for the thoughts & intentions of my own children with the assurance O44/EH have on someone they've never met or "known peripherally"
I never said I never met the young man.
And i'm sure that O44 has met Him also in a round about way?
Thats why i'm so Proud of him.
luvbb,
[qoute] You have stated that your intent was not conveyed by the words you chose...I will take your word for that.[/qoute] Thank You
EH
EH/OB44
I admire you both for defending the player as an honorable young man.
It wasn't the issue and I do understand about how things become personal.
If anything was ever stated negative about any of our kids, or any kids, I would zap it in a NY minute.
I hope that you both realize this was about the game of baseball and the non importance of it compared to other things in life, not a hit on the player.
I hope this clears up any comments regarding passing judgement on the player, I don't think that was done here.
Besides, moms very seldom pass judgement on another person's son.
JMO.
I admire you both for defending the player as an honorable young man.
It wasn't the issue and I do understand about how things become personal.
If anything was ever stated negative about any of our kids, or any kids, I would zap it in a NY minute.
I hope that you both realize this was about the game of baseball and the non importance of it compared to other things in life, not a hit on the player.
I hope this clears up any comments regarding passing judgement on the player, I don't think that was done here.
Besides, moms very seldom pass judgement on another person's son.
JMO.
There are some implied indignations in this thread which I believe are perhaps unwarranted - whether you know the young man in question or not. Reading between the lines, it appears some are miffed that the young man may be wanting to have things both ways - get a supreme education for free and then renegotiate something else when the pro option becomes viable. The military academies want it both ways as well. Why do I say that? They could end all this alleged controversy by making it a policy that incoming cadet's must forgo any pro aspirations up front but they have not. I am guessing this would hurt their recruiting... let me explain...
To me the issue with the young man in question is not if he will fullfill his obligation but when (I believe this is what ob44 has been saying). Thus far, he is just asking to delay it till sometime in the future which seems reasonable to me. None of his comments (that I have seen in print) seem to indicate he thinks he is above anything or is trying to get out of anything but others may see it differently.
Here is the other side of it rather than just focusing on this one young man. He has 30 other teammates who were not drafted. If the Academy were to get rid of the ball team just to eliminate the possibility of a kid getting drafted someday, then maybe they would never have been able to attract those 30 other kids in the first place. Thus, it seems to me a small risk for them to take to allow those very few players to have a chance at pro ball IF that even ever happens. Karl is one of very few players in the history of the Air Force Academy to be drafted.
CPLZ's son is going to West Point and I am guessing (correct me if I am wrong Chip) may not be there if they would have nixed the pro option up front. I believe West Point allows pro prospects to buy out their obligation for cash which I believe is 200,000 or something like that. I realize some may have a problem with that policy but the service academy may consider it an acceptable risk since all the other players on the team will indeed become service members. It could be argued that the team is an effective recruiting tool for them (the academies) in spite of the possibility one or two every now and then will be drafted.
I suppose the other option is for the Academies to tell all their athletes that there is no pro option at the end of the rainbow. Either commit to the military or forget the Academy. I am guessing this is not a workable solution for them or otherwise that policy would already be in place.
To me the issue with the young man in question is not if he will fullfill his obligation but when (I believe this is what ob44 has been saying). Thus far, he is just asking to delay it till sometime in the future which seems reasonable to me. None of his comments (that I have seen in print) seem to indicate he thinks he is above anything or is trying to get out of anything but others may see it differently.
Here is the other side of it rather than just focusing on this one young man. He has 30 other teammates who were not drafted. If the Academy were to get rid of the ball team just to eliminate the possibility of a kid getting drafted someday, then maybe they would never have been able to attract those 30 other kids in the first place. Thus, it seems to me a small risk for them to take to allow those very few players to have a chance at pro ball IF that even ever happens. Karl is one of very few players in the history of the Air Force Academy to be drafted.
CPLZ's son is going to West Point and I am guessing (correct me if I am wrong Chip) may not be there if they would have nixed the pro option up front. I believe West Point allows pro prospects to buy out their obligation for cash which I believe is 200,000 or something like that. I realize some may have a problem with that policy but the service academy may consider it an acceptable risk since all the other players on the team will indeed become service members. It could be argued that the team is an effective recruiting tool for them (the academies) in spite of the possibility one or two every now and then will be drafted.
I suppose the other option is for the Academies to tell all their athletes that there is no pro option at the end of the rainbow. Either commit to the military or forget the Academy. I am guessing this is not a workable solution for them or otherwise that policy would already be in place.
I believe the service academies do have a policy in place for cadets who have the opportunity to play professional sports involving two years of active duty and a partial repayment of the cost of their education (to the tune of six figures). I believe this policy was put into place to deal with the very few cadets who develop professional sports potential. The academies have already offered a compromise.
But I do have faith that each year 4,000 quality candidates without professional sports aspirations could be found to fill the incoming places at the service academies.
Much has been made in discussions here before about commitment, questioning the ethics of hs players who verbally commit to one school but change their minds when the possibility of a better offer comes along or programs who fail to fulfill on promises made or even inferred by a player or their families. IMHO, a commitment to serve your country after having been given the benefit of an academy education is much more serious than the commitment to play for any given baseball program and should be held to the exacting standards of those institutions. Or even the standards discussed here before about the value and lesson of commitment.
The academic and physical standards for entry into the academies are high, as are the levels of training in both aspects. Just as the programs any of our sons improved them as players, the coaching and additional physical training geared to make them better and more fit officers involved in four years at a service academy makes their players better and stronger.
About a third of any entry class into one of the academies washes out before graduation for a variety of reasons. It is my understanding that no active duty commitment is incurred until the start of their third year giving, in the instance of a potential professional player, the opportunity to transfer to a civilian universtiy where that potential could be fully explored.
But I do have faith that each year 4,000 quality candidates without professional sports aspirations could be found to fill the incoming places at the service academies.
Much has been made in discussions here before about commitment, questioning the ethics of hs players who verbally commit to one school but change their minds when the possibility of a better offer comes along or programs who fail to fulfill on promises made or even inferred by a player or their families. IMHO, a commitment to serve your country after having been given the benefit of an academy education is much more serious than the commitment to play for any given baseball program and should be held to the exacting standards of those institutions. Or even the standards discussed here before about the value and lesson of commitment.
The academic and physical standards for entry into the academies are high, as are the levels of training in both aspects. Just as the programs any of our sons improved them as players, the coaching and additional physical training geared to make them better and more fit officers involved in four years at a service academy makes their players better and stronger.
About a third of any entry class into one of the academies washes out before graduation for a variety of reasons. It is my understanding that no active duty commitment is incurred until the start of their third year giving, in the instance of a potential professional player, the opportunity to transfer to a civilian universtiy where that potential could be fully explored.
You guys are missing the point. Lt. Karl Bolt, as expressed by Academydad and by Lt. Bolt himself, wants to serve in the United States Air Force. He has requested of the Secretary of Defense an exception to his commitment to the Air Force.. not an out. He has requested that he be allowed to pursue baseball while working in an adapted duty to the Air Force.
West Point has a graduate currently doing the same thing. He plays baseball and works as a recruiter. In fact, ARMY may have more than one doing that. They had two get drafted this past year who signed contracts.
Baseball can be used as a recruitment tool not only for the Academies, but for the armed services themselves.
ARMY, NAVY, and Air Force all compete at the DI level. They need quality athletes to compete at that level. Some of them are going attract attention from MLB scouts.
If you don't want baseball players from the Academies to be drafted, please work to shut down the other sports programs supported by the armed forces that allow military personnel to compete in competitions throughout the world in track, swimming, etc. Might as well be equal, right?
West Point has a graduate currently doing the same thing. He plays baseball and works as a recruiter. In fact, ARMY may have more than one doing that. They had two get drafted this past year who signed contracts.
Baseball can be used as a recruitment tool not only for the Academies, but for the armed services themselves.
ARMY, NAVY, and Air Force all compete at the DI level. They need quality athletes to compete at that level. Some of them are going attract attention from MLB scouts.
If you don't want baseball players from the Academies to be drafted, please work to shut down the other sports programs supported by the armed forces that allow military personnel to compete in competitions throughout the world in track, swimming, etc. Might as well be equal, right?
quote:Originally posted by J.Weaver #5:
I'd say being drafted counts as a special circumstance.
Bulldog,
I think that this was the point in question. And I don't think I missed it.
IMO, pro baseball is the low job on totem poll as far as priorities. My response was to the above comment.
The only people I think I may have offended are those whose sons do this for a living, the same as mine. Until you or your sons are in that situtation some day don't be so quick to judge the importance over other things in life.
quote:Baseball can be used as a recruitment tool not only for the Academies, but for the armed services themselves.
With all due respect....I hardly think the Academies need a "recruitment tool" other than the desire to serve one's country at the highest levels....assignments to the Academies are highly selective and competitive where the demand greatly outnumbers the supply. That is one of the reasons why assignments are held with such prestige.
After dropping my youngest off for his first year of college (no, I did not squall), I stood in the airport waiting to board a plane to head to Chicago to watch my oldest for the first time, when a large group of soldiers arrived to a thunderous round of applause.
It struck me hard that what my family was enjoying was the result of those men and their predecessors have done.
On this board we applaud the success of those that continue to thrive in their baseball careers.
Here we have a young officer has two options that many of us would be proud for our sons to have either offer.
He faces a formidable task in attempting to do both.
Let's wish him well.
It struck me hard that what my family was enjoying was the result of those men and their predecessors have done.
On this board we applaud the success of those that continue to thrive in their baseball careers.
Here we have a young officer has two options that many of us would be proud for our sons to have either offer.
He faces a formidable task in attempting to do both.
Let's wish him well.
quote:You guys are missing the point. Lt. Karl Bolt, as expressed by Academydad and by Lt. Bolt himself, wants to serve in the United States Air Force. He has requested of the Secretary of Defense an exception to his commitment to the Air Force.. not an out. He has requested that he be allowed to pursue baseball while working in an adapted duty to the Air Force.
I didn't miss it, I was trying to stay out of any "personal" discussion when it came to Officer Bolt and was trying to dicuss the military in GENERAL when it comes to our service men and women.
A question I would ask you...what kind of disruption to the military would it cause if every service man and woman who wanted to "pursue a career opportunity" outside of the military requested a deferrment or adapted duty assignment? Lets even take out of the equation all of the military men and woman who have to deal with unbelievable "hardships" in order to serve (ie, moms and dads BOTH being sent overseas leaving behind small children) and if THEY were all granted deferrments or "adapted assignments", which according to stories I see on the news periodically...they are not? Or, all those stories you hear about reservists being called, served their time only to come home and be re-called to duty after having re-established their personal lives and careers? They all go and serve without benefit of deferrment or adapted assignements. Actually, I know of a couple of our websters who have family members who are in these situations.
I think this is an illustration of why the particular case can be a real hot button issue. And why some might question the issues of commitment and ethics. Unfortunately, I see it more as another indication of how the allure of professional sports is dissproportionately valued and revered in our society that we are even discussing this and that a deferrment or adapted assignment is an option in the U.S. military to accomodate a sports career...altho, I can't say I'm surprised.
How proud I am of Officer Bolt and his brother!
I wish the Air Force would really publicize his success across this country for him to be a role model for our young men and women in this day and age of Barry Bonds, Michael Vick, and Lindsay Lohan!
Here is one example of someone who has excellent character, an athlete at the top of his game who is getting to compete at the next level, and also wants to serve his country!
I wish the Air Force would really publicize his success across this country for him to be a role model for our young men and women in this day and age of Barry Bonds, Michael Vick, and Lindsay Lohan!
Here is one example of someone who has excellent character, an athlete at the top of his game who is getting to compete at the next level, and also wants to serve his country!
Very well said, luvbb. Please read her post, Bulldog, as that is, indeed, the point.
With the current situation of extended and multiple tours of duty in Iraq for the active military and reserve personell, the idea of an academy grad enjoying a modified assignment with playing minor league ball being used as a recruiter for the military is dishonest, as the military has no intention to adapt assignments for each signee's individual schedules; it would be impossible to operate that way.
I also don't understand using one as a "recruitment tool" for the Academies. With the number of young Americans vying for those spots, why would the Academies want to attract more cadets hoping to serve modified assignments while pursing a professional sports career which, if successful, would mean leaving the service completely without fulfilling their five year commitment?
Service personell from many countries compete in Olympic individual sports with the name of their country on their chests. The comparison to paid, professional team sports is invalid.
Like luvbb and TPM, I have been trying to avoid making this a personal issue, but a discussion of the principle involved.
With the current situation of extended and multiple tours of duty in Iraq for the active military and reserve personell, the idea of an academy grad enjoying a modified assignment with playing minor league ball being used as a recruiter for the military is dishonest, as the military has no intention to adapt assignments for each signee's individual schedules; it would be impossible to operate that way.
I also don't understand using one as a "recruitment tool" for the Academies. With the number of young Americans vying for those spots, why would the Academies want to attract more cadets hoping to serve modified assignments while pursing a professional sports career which, if successful, would mean leaving the service completely without fulfilling their five year commitment?
Service personell from many countries compete in Olympic individual sports with the name of their country on their chests. The comparison to paid, professional team sports is invalid.
Like luvbb and TPM, I have been trying to avoid making this a personal issue, but a discussion of the principle involved.
quote:With the current situation of extended and multiple tours of duty in Iraq for the active military and reserve personell, the idea of an academy grad enjoying a modified assignment with playing minor league ball being used as a recruiter for the military is dishonest, as the military has no intention to adapt assignments for each signee's individual schedules; it would be impossible to operate that way.
I just read this thread today for the first time. If this was my son, boy would I want him to have a chance to pursue being drafted. However, the posts that recognize to single out any military person for a special opportunity such as this presents problems.
My son has a HS friend that was 20 years old, and a year into the marines (now in Iraq), when his 17 year old girlfriend gave birth to a premature baby who was in NICU for weeks. He was allowed to come home (for a week I believe), but missed the birth of course and left this young single mother to deal with a preemie with health issues. That was a special circumstance. If we brought home all the young men and women in Iraq alone who were having "special circumstances" at home right now, there would be a lot. Not to mention, in the entire military.
It's not as simple as letting someone pursue pro ball.
Please read this article;
Notice who is publishing this article?? EH
Hill, Dinga Excel During First Months Of Pro Careers
Courtesy: Army Athletic Communications
Release: 07/27/2007
Courtesy: Army Athletic Communications
http://www.goarmysports.com
Nick Hill
Nick Hill's Minor League Statistics
Milan Dinga's Minor League Statistics
WEST POINT, N.Y. – Nick Hill and Milan Dinga spent their collegiate baseball careers dominating enemy batters. A move to the professional ranks hardly changed all of that.
Little more than a month into their respective professional baseball careers, both have experienced a great deal of early success in their first stops in the minor leagues.
While Hill was chosen in the seventh round by the Seattle Mariners during June’s Major League Baseball First-Year Player Draft and later assigned to the Everett (Wash.) AquaSox of the Northwest League (Class-A, Short Season), Dinga was snared in the 10th round by the Los Angeles Angels and assigned to the Orem (Ore.) Owlz of the Pioneer League (Rookie League).
Named to the ABCA Northeast Region First Team for the third time in four years last month, Hill closed his collegiate career by copping Patriot League Pitcher of the Year honors for the third time in four years. He established or tied 46 school and conference records on game, season and career levels across a brilliant four-year collegiate career.
A two-time All-America choice and the first player in Patriot League history to win conference pitcher of the year honors outright three times, the native of Bluff City, Tenn. (Sullivan East H.S.), stands as the first player since the league’s inception to earn first team all-conference honors four consecutive years. He ranks as Army’s career leader in pitching victories (modern era), strikeouts, shutouts and innings pitched, among others.
After starring for the USA National Baseball Team last summer, Hill has sparkled during his debut season in the professional ranks. The most decorated baseball player in Army history has allowed just one earned run across 13.1 innings of work, spanning 10 appearances. Hill has yielded just 12 base hits and six walks, while striking out 18. Despite sporting a gaudy 0.68 earned run average, he sports a deceiving 0-3 record.
Hill has been used exclusively out of the bullpen this summer by Everett in an effort to limit his workload. It is believed the Mariners will return Hill to starting duties next spring. In his most recent outing on Monday (July 23), Hill fired two perfect innings of relief against the Vancouver Canadians, fanning four of the six batters he faced.
“It’s been everything I could have hope for, getting to play baseball every day,” explains Hill. “I’m having the time of my life right now. We’re playing games every day. We’re always either playing a game or traveling to a game. I’m very appreciative of the opportunity the Army is giving me to live a dream.”
Dinga experienced similar success before being felled by shoulder troubles, which have landed him on Orem’s Disabled List. Prior to the setback, Dinga had emerged as Orem’s closer, posting one save and a 1.35 ERA across four appearances. He struck out six and walked one, while permitting six base hits and just one earned run in 6.2 innings of work.
The finest closer in Army history, Dinga successfully converted a school- and Patriot League-record 27 career saves during his days at the Academy. He regularly dominated batters during the late innings for four consecutive years while at the Academy, blossoming into one of the nation’s top relief specialists. Dinga successfully converted 27 of 29 career save opportunities, including 23 in a row during a three-year span that ended in his next-to-last collegiate appearance this spring. In all, he established or tied nine Army and Patriot League pitching records.
The Tampa, Fla. (Robinson H.S.), native was scored upon just five times in 61 career appearances, registering a microscopic 1.14 earned run average during that time. The "lights-out" stopper permitted just seven extra-base hits (all doubles) during his Army career, posting 28 consecutive appearances without allowing an extra-base hit during a stretch that spanned his junior and senior seasons. In all, he did not yield a triple or a home run across his collegiate career en route to posting a 4-1 record with 27 saves. A four-year letterwinner, he fanned 71 and walked only 10 for a remarkable 7:1 strikeout-walk ratio, allowing just 43 hits in 63.1 innings pitched.
Scored upon just once during both his junior and senior campaigns, Dinga scripted a school record consecutive scoreless appearance streak of 32 that spanned his junior and senior years, before yielding two runs during his next-to-last career outing. In six career pitching performances against arch-rival Navy, he went 1-0 with three saves and did not allow a single run. He struck out four, did not walk a batter and yielded just three hits in 5.1 innings of work versus the Mids.
“Ever since I was a little kid I dreamed of playing pro ball and it’s been everything I ever dreamed of,” states Dinga, who is currently at the Angels spring training facility in Tempe, Ariz., undergoing rehabilitation for his injured shoulder. “It’s very disappointing being injured, but I’m trying to stay positive and continue with my rehabilitation to get my shoulder better. The Army has been understanding enough to allow me to continue to play the game I love playing and I am very grateful for that.”
Notes: A third alumnus of Army’s baseball program, Josh Holden (USMA’03), is currently toiling in the minor leagues ... Holden is currently a member of the Sarasota (Fla.) Reds of the Florida State League (High Class-A) ... Holden (USMA ‘03) is in his third season with the Reds’ organization, spending the past two summers at Billings (Mont.) (Rookie League) and Dayton (Ohio) (Low-A), respectively ... in 56 games this year (146 official at-bats), Holden is batting .267 with 14 runs scored and 14 runs batted in ... the speedy outfielder has collected two doubles, four triples and nabbed seven stolen bases in 10 attempts ... following a slow start at the plate, Holden is batting .302 in his last 31 games, spanning two months ... he batted a blazing .357 during the month of June and is hitting .333 overall with runners in scoring position this season.
Notice who is publishing this article?? EH
Hill, Dinga Excel During First Months Of Pro Careers
Courtesy: Army Athletic Communications
Release: 07/27/2007
Courtesy: Army Athletic Communications
http://www.goarmysports.com
Nick Hill
Nick Hill's Minor League Statistics
Milan Dinga's Minor League Statistics
WEST POINT, N.Y. – Nick Hill and Milan Dinga spent their collegiate baseball careers dominating enemy batters. A move to the professional ranks hardly changed all of that.
Little more than a month into their respective professional baseball careers, both have experienced a great deal of early success in their first stops in the minor leagues.
While Hill was chosen in the seventh round by the Seattle Mariners during June’s Major League Baseball First-Year Player Draft and later assigned to the Everett (Wash.) AquaSox of the Northwest League (Class-A, Short Season), Dinga was snared in the 10th round by the Los Angeles Angels and assigned to the Orem (Ore.) Owlz of the Pioneer League (Rookie League).
Named to the ABCA Northeast Region First Team for the third time in four years last month, Hill closed his collegiate career by copping Patriot League Pitcher of the Year honors for the third time in four years. He established or tied 46 school and conference records on game, season and career levels across a brilliant four-year collegiate career.
A two-time All-America choice and the first player in Patriot League history to win conference pitcher of the year honors outright three times, the native of Bluff City, Tenn. (Sullivan East H.S.), stands as the first player since the league’s inception to earn first team all-conference honors four consecutive years. He ranks as Army’s career leader in pitching victories (modern era), strikeouts, shutouts and innings pitched, among others.
After starring for the USA National Baseball Team last summer, Hill has sparkled during his debut season in the professional ranks. The most decorated baseball player in Army history has allowed just one earned run across 13.1 innings of work, spanning 10 appearances. Hill has yielded just 12 base hits and six walks, while striking out 18. Despite sporting a gaudy 0.68 earned run average, he sports a deceiving 0-3 record.
Hill has been used exclusively out of the bullpen this summer by Everett in an effort to limit his workload. It is believed the Mariners will return Hill to starting duties next spring. In his most recent outing on Monday (July 23), Hill fired two perfect innings of relief against the Vancouver Canadians, fanning four of the six batters he faced.
“It’s been everything I could have hope for, getting to play baseball every day,” explains Hill. “I’m having the time of my life right now. We’re playing games every day. We’re always either playing a game or traveling to a game. I’m very appreciative of the opportunity the Army is giving me to live a dream.”
Dinga experienced similar success before being felled by shoulder troubles, which have landed him on Orem’s Disabled List. Prior to the setback, Dinga had emerged as Orem’s closer, posting one save and a 1.35 ERA across four appearances. He struck out six and walked one, while permitting six base hits and just one earned run in 6.2 innings of work.
The finest closer in Army history, Dinga successfully converted a school- and Patriot League-record 27 career saves during his days at the Academy. He regularly dominated batters during the late innings for four consecutive years while at the Academy, blossoming into one of the nation’s top relief specialists. Dinga successfully converted 27 of 29 career save opportunities, including 23 in a row during a three-year span that ended in his next-to-last collegiate appearance this spring. In all, he established or tied nine Army and Patriot League pitching records.
The Tampa, Fla. (Robinson H.S.), native was scored upon just five times in 61 career appearances, registering a microscopic 1.14 earned run average during that time. The "lights-out" stopper permitted just seven extra-base hits (all doubles) during his Army career, posting 28 consecutive appearances without allowing an extra-base hit during a stretch that spanned his junior and senior seasons. In all, he did not yield a triple or a home run across his collegiate career en route to posting a 4-1 record with 27 saves. A four-year letterwinner, he fanned 71 and walked only 10 for a remarkable 7:1 strikeout-walk ratio, allowing just 43 hits in 63.1 innings pitched.
Scored upon just once during both his junior and senior campaigns, Dinga scripted a school record consecutive scoreless appearance streak of 32 that spanned his junior and senior years, before yielding two runs during his next-to-last career outing. In six career pitching performances against arch-rival Navy, he went 1-0 with three saves and did not allow a single run. He struck out four, did not walk a batter and yielded just three hits in 5.1 innings of work versus the Mids.
“Ever since I was a little kid I dreamed of playing pro ball and it’s been everything I ever dreamed of,” states Dinga, who is currently at the Angels spring training facility in Tempe, Ariz., undergoing rehabilitation for his injured shoulder. “It’s very disappointing being injured, but I’m trying to stay positive and continue with my rehabilitation to get my shoulder better. The Army has been understanding enough to allow me to continue to play the game I love playing and I am very grateful for that.”
Notes: A third alumnus of Army’s baseball program, Josh Holden (USMA’03), is currently toiling in the minor leagues ... Holden is currently a member of the Sarasota (Fla.) Reds of the Florida State League (High Class-A) ... Holden (USMA ‘03) is in his third season with the Reds’ organization, spending the past two summers at Billings (Mont.) (Rookie League) and Dayton (Ohio) (Low-A), respectively ... in 56 games this year (146 official at-bats), Holden is batting .267 with 14 runs scored and 14 runs batted in ... the speedy outfielder has collected two doubles, four triples and nabbed seven stolen bases in 10 attempts ... following a slow start at the plate, Holden is batting .302 in his last 31 games, spanning two months ... he batted a blazing .357 during the month of June and is hitting .333 overall with runners in scoring position this season.
quote:“Ever since I was a little kid I dreamed of playing pro ball and it’s been everything I ever dreamed of,” states Dinga, who is currently at the Angels spring training facility in Tempe, Ariz., undergoing rehabilitation for his injured shoulder.
Eh....I do not think ANYONE is questioning whether this happens or not in the Academies. However, I DO find the above quote particularly interesting. I would THINK that those who attend any of the Military Academies might have a different "dream"...like serve their country in a high level military capacity????
I also find it interesting that this story does not mention AT ALL how these two men are going to fulfill their obligations to the US Military.
quote:I also find it interesting that this story does not mention AT ALL how these two men are going to fulfill their obligations to the US Military.
Officer Bolt starts work as a Logistics Officer at MacDill AFB in Tampa on Monday. He
has already gone over (about 15 minutes from the Phillies Training Facility in
Clearwater) and met his 3 levels of Superiors over him. He thinks so far they're
great. Each one of them has already stated they would like to see him continue
(live the All-American Dream), and if it can be done on a local level, they're
going to try. At least until the Pentagon makes some sort of decision. I just
saw an article on Nick Hill and Dinga (07 West Point grads) who are both playing
MiLB path is already set... in the off-season they report as Recruiting Officers for
the Army. That's their Active Duty.
EH
Now does anybody have a problem with that.
The Military doesn't think they have a problem.
In fact they promote it.
Why would they [ The Military ] embrace this.
Why.
WHY.
If I have to explain it. It will just fall on Deaf Ears.
EH
The Military doesn't think they have a problem.
In fact they promote it.
Why would they [ The Military ] embrace this.
Why.
WHY.
If I have to explain it. It will just fall on Deaf Ears.
EH
quote:Now does anybody have a problem with that.
The Military doesn't think they have a problem.
In fact they promote it.
Why would they [ The Military ] embrace this.
Why.
WHY.
If I have to explain it. It will just fall on Deaf Ears.
**************
Eh..can you hear me now?
quote:Eh..can you hear me now?
Yes. Loud and clear. LOL
This individual's are fine young men, In fact the finest.
All are Military Are the finest in the world.
And I know for a fact, That if and when the Military calls on these individuals to be Stationed anywhere the Military want's to send them.
They will go, No questions asked.
They will do it with Commitment and with Honor.
EH
quote:And I know for a fact, That if and when the Military calls on these individuals to be Stationed anywhere the Military want's to send them.
They will go, No questions asked.
They will do it with Commitment and with Honor.
Actually Eh...the military DID call (when they entered the Academy and an agreement was entered into) and they DID ask a question when the time came for them to be assigned (can I have a deferred or alternate assignment?). Because I honestly do NOT think the Academy and the US Military had "part time recruitment officer in the pro-ball off season" as a job description in mind when they entered the Academy for that four-year prestigious education!
"Individuals", EH? In the military?
The question isn't about individuals; it's about the principle of commitment, in this case a commitment to serve your country for five years, partially in repayment for the gift of a $400,000 (the Academies' figure) education and certainly out of a stated desire to serve. And about fair play; if you commit to serve whether as a well-educated officer or a private, that commitment should be fulfilled, not deferred because of an elected "better offer".
West Point's motto is Duty, Honor, Country; I'm sure the other Academies have similiar rallying points. But I bet none of them are Duty, Honor, Country...On My Schedule.
The question isn't about individuals; it's about the principle of commitment, in this case a commitment to serve your country for five years, partially in repayment for the gift of a $400,000 (the Academies' figure) education and certainly out of a stated desire to serve. And about fair play; if you commit to serve whether as a well-educated officer or a private, that commitment should be fulfilled, not deferred because of an elected "better offer".
West Point's motto is Duty, Honor, Country; I'm sure the other Academies have similiar rallying points. But I bet none of them are Duty, Honor, Country...On My Schedule.
My son plays baseball at West Point. West Point is the currently the only service academy with a "pro service option" that will allow a player to pursue a pro career after graduation (they cannot be drafted in baseball after their junior year like normal college players).
The pro service option has the player serve as an Army recruiter for his first two off seasons. If he continues in pro ball, he buys out a remainder of his obligation, currently around $33,000, and his remaining three years of obligation would be doubled to 6 and placed in the inactive reserves. This means, that at anytime, the Army can call him back...as they see fit.
Army baseball had its best recruiting year ever this year, including 6 or 7 players that would have been drafted if not for their committment to West Point. The pro service option opens the door to a higher caliber player in all sports that support pro endeavors. My son would have never attended without the option to play professionally. These are agreed upon terms by both player/cadet and the Army. Some players drafted in the past, played for a year in the minors and then quit baseball to rejoin the Army and be shipped overseas. It's what they wanted to do. Whichever route these players go, either pro or military service, there are no losers, only winners. None of them that I have met, for a second think of military service as an obligation, they all view it as a privilige, the same as they view pro baseball. Personally, I find that quite refreshing.
Take a look at it from the Army's perspective. The US Army is the #1 advertiser in all of pro sports. By placing West Point grads in the pro's they are holding up for the country, examples of their fine institution. Pure gold from a marketing perspective, and the cheapest advertising the Army could buy. It works on every level for both the Cadet and the Army.
To try and end the debate about "what about the person who didn't get into West Point and would have preferred to serve in the military?" West Point is not the only way to serve in the Army as an officer. If that is truly their goal, they would hardly be dissuaded by rejection from West Point. Those that never serve active duty and go on to the pro's, they serve their country as examples held up for scrutiny every day. And every day they answer the call with head held high. They feel great affection for their country, their comrades, and their institution...and carry that message forward wherever they go.
Go Army...Beat Everybody
The pro service option has the player serve as an Army recruiter for his first two off seasons. If he continues in pro ball, he buys out a remainder of his obligation, currently around $33,000, and his remaining three years of obligation would be doubled to 6 and placed in the inactive reserves. This means, that at anytime, the Army can call him back...as they see fit.
Army baseball had its best recruiting year ever this year, including 6 or 7 players that would have been drafted if not for their committment to West Point. The pro service option opens the door to a higher caliber player in all sports that support pro endeavors. My son would have never attended without the option to play professionally. These are agreed upon terms by both player/cadet and the Army. Some players drafted in the past, played for a year in the minors and then quit baseball to rejoin the Army and be shipped overseas. It's what they wanted to do. Whichever route these players go, either pro or military service, there are no losers, only winners. None of them that I have met, for a second think of military service as an obligation, they all view it as a privilige, the same as they view pro baseball. Personally, I find that quite refreshing.
Take a look at it from the Army's perspective. The US Army is the #1 advertiser in all of pro sports. By placing West Point grads in the pro's they are holding up for the country, examples of their fine institution. Pure gold from a marketing perspective, and the cheapest advertising the Army could buy. It works on every level for both the Cadet and the Army.
To try and end the debate about "what about the person who didn't get into West Point and would have preferred to serve in the military?" West Point is not the only way to serve in the Army as an officer. If that is truly their goal, they would hardly be dissuaded by rejection from West Point. Those that never serve active duty and go on to the pro's, they serve their country as examples held up for scrutiny every day. And every day they answer the call with head held high. They feel great affection for their country, their comrades, and their institution...and carry that message forward wherever they go.
Go Army...Beat Everybody
quote:West Point's motto is Duty, Honor, Country; I'm sure the other Academies have similiar rallying points. But I bet none of them are Duty, Honor, Country On My Schedule.
Then WHY oh Why, Did the Military agree to these Individuals Request??
Orlando, You seem to be worried about that Dollar amount being paid back to the Tax Payers.
It must be driving you crazy to have Billions and billions and billions of Tax Payers money being unaccounted for in Iraq.
EH
quote:To try and end the debate about "what about the person who didn't get into West Point and would have preferred to serve in the military?" West Point is not the only way to serve in the Army as an officer. If that is truly their goal, they would hardly be dissuaded by rejection from West Point.
CPZL..thank you for the elaboration on "how things work" at West Point. It was very interesting, and best of luck to your son. Actually, one of my son's good friends/teammates from high school is a team mate of your son's.
Re: the above, perhaps I "mistyped" before..but only one of the many issues brought forth so far had to do with taking the military academy EDUCATION, prestige and advantages (ie, life-long contacts and opportunities) away from someone who's dream is to serve in the military...and give it to someone who's dream is to play professional baseball (as mentioned in the article posted by Eh). It wasn't necessarily "just" about becoming an officer in the military. Obviously, that can be attained several different ways and thru different avenues.
Oh, EH, for heaven's sake. I mentioned the figure to demonstrate that the facilities and education provided by the service academies is of a different level than civilian universities. I'm not "worried" about anything here and would hardly engage in a debate with you about military accounting.
I'm long past thinking I can have any impact on the military's decisions. But the rationale that they can accept and educate a young man to be an officer in wartime in order to hold him up as a professional ballplayer recruiting tool to enhance their advertising efforts to get more young people to send off to that war seems cynical in the extreme.
I'm long past thinking I can have any impact on the military's decisions. But the rationale that they can accept and educate a young man to be an officer in wartime in order to hold him up as a professional ballplayer recruiting tool to enhance their advertising efforts to get more young people to send off to that war seems cynical in the extreme.
CPZL...out of curiousity...does West Point allow any sort of "buy out" (for lack of a better word) for an officer who wishes to pursue a career outside of sports????? Would they accomodate someone who wanted to pursue an offer they received in.....I don't know....let's say an officer has a really good singing voice and got an offer to be a back-up singer on a professional tour? 
Or is that option available only for professional sports endeavors?
Orlando,
This is were we differ.
I do understand your point of view.
I'm just trying to explain My point.
Like I said I'm not articulate enough to point that out, Obviously.
LOL
These young men will be the first one's to tell you that it's just a game.
It does not compare to what there Fellow Soldiers are going through in Harm's way.
But the Military must see some Benefit.
The Benefit out ways the Problem
Are it would not happen.
EH
quote:I'm long past thinking I can have any impact on the military's decisions. But the rationale that they can accept and educate a young man to be an officer in wartime in order to hold him up as a professional ballplayer recruiting tool to enhance their advertising efforts to get more young people to send off to that war seems cynical in the extreme.
This is were we differ.
I do understand your point of view.
I'm just trying to explain My point.
Like I said I'm not articulate enough to point that out, Obviously.
LOL
These young men will be the first one's to tell you that it's just a game.
It does not compare to what there Fellow Soldiers are going through in Harm's way.
But the Military must see some Benefit.
The Benefit out ways the Problem
Are it would not happen.
EH
just wondering .. are you CIA?quote:by EH: ... Officer Bolt starts work as a Logistics Officer at MacDill AFB in Tampa on Monday. He has already gone over (about 15 minutes from the Phillies Training Facility in Clearwater* and met his 3 levels of Superiors over him. He thinks so far they're great. Each one of them has already stated they would like to see him continue
(live the All-American Dream), and if it can be done on a local level, they're going to try. At least until the Pentagon makes some sort of decision
can ya tap a few more phones for me??
quote:just wondering .. are you CIA?
can ya tap a few more phones for me??
Yes I am.
What would you like to know.
Of course you know what I have to do now. LOL
We all know this is a sensitive issue.
and i'm not trying to make light of it.
I'm just trying to let you know that these are Honorable young men.
Trying to do the best of both world's.
Embrace it.
It's not a bad thing.
In fact it's a feel good story as far as I'm concerned.
EH
Wow! Never thought my innocent question would get so many emotional responses.
I guess the Services look more favorably on players who have an opportunity for pro ball than they used to...which I think is reasonable if possible.
If that wasn't the case I doubt the MLB would draft them so high (Army guys 7th and 10th rounds).
Personnaly, i think it's great when individuals with individual circumsatnces are treated individually rather than lumped under a general rule!
A step in the right direction...IMO.
I guess the Services look more favorably on players who have an opportunity for pro ball than they used to...which I think is reasonable if possible.
If that wasn't the case I doubt the MLB would draft them so high (Army guys 7th and 10th rounds).
Personnaly, i think it's great when individuals with individual circumsatnces are treated individually rather than lumped under a general rule!
A step in the right direction...IMO.
quote:
I But the rationale that they can accept and educate a young man to be an officer in wartime in order to hold him up as a professional ballplayer recruiting tool to enhance their advertising efforts to get more young people to send off to that war seems cynical in the extreme.
Actually, in the cold light of day, it looks amazingly fiscally responsible for a government entity and a sound business decision that produces nothing but positives.
quote:Originally posted by luvbb:
CPZL...out of curiousity...does West Point allow any sort of "buy out" (for lack of a better word) for an officer who wishes to pursue a career outside of sports????? Would they accomodate someone who wanted to pursue an offer they received in.....I don't know....let's say an officer has a really good singing voice and got an offer to be a back-up singer on a professional tour?
LUVBB,
Is it your intention to try and support your position by bringing up ludicrous examples? Are singers now recruited to major universities and held up as examples or icons for the institutions? How many singers graduate college and make lasting impressions on millions of people?
I outlined as best I could the policy and reasoning for it. Your question is redundant in nature, because the answer to it has already been explained. I can't understand why you would choose to ignore it.
With respect, CPLZ, I don't think minor league ballplayers are held up as icons (even on this site) or "make lasting impressions on millions of people". You're waaayyyy ahead of yourself there.
Although I might hold up Bono as a singer who fits that bill.
The question is hardly ludicrous. The question was, are professional sports the only career that would outrank that of an Academy-educated officer?
Attending a civilian university prepares one for a universe of potential careers; attending a service Academy holds a specific and important commitment. I'm frankly surprised that the Academy allows entry with an alternate path as a goal.
You explained the policy and it is understood. I believe we are allowed to disagree with it, as do previous graduates of West Point.
Although I might hold up Bono as a singer who fits that bill.
The question is hardly ludicrous. The question was, are professional sports the only career that would outrank that of an Academy-educated officer?
Attending a civilian university prepares one for a universe of potential careers; attending a service Academy holds a specific and important commitment. I'm frankly surprised that the Academy allows entry with an alternate path as a goal.
You explained the policy and it is understood. I believe we are allowed to disagree with it, as do previous graduates of West Point.
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:quote:
I But the rationale that they can accept and educate a young man to be an officer in wartime in order to hold him up as a professional ballplayer recruiting tool to enhance their advertising efforts to get more young people to send off to that war seems cynical in the extreme.
Actually, in the cold light of day, it looks amazingly fiscally responsible for a government entity and a sound business decision that produces nothing but positives.
So now I understand that you don't see that using an officer who has had a program tailored to his needs as an example would mislead recruits. The goal is to recruit; the ends justify the means.
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
Although I might hold up Bono as a singer who fits that bill.
You explained the policy and it is understood. I believe we are allowed to disagree with it, as do previous graduates of West Point.
Which college did Bono attend?
What graduates are in disagreement? I haven't met any, and I've met a lot of grads and am ex-Army.
The question wasn't ludicrous, trying to use it to support an argument where evidence to the contrary already in effect was.
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
So now I understand that you don't see that using an officer who has had a program tailored to his needs as an example would mislead recruits. The goal is to recruit; the ends justify the means.
Actually, I believe you are refusing to understand this subject at all. You are entitled to your opinion, but you seem hell bent on disagreement, which is your right.
You are opposed to a pre arranged and explicit program that benefits greatly, both the Service and a Cadet and somehow want to find unfairness where none exists.
quote:LUVBB,
Is it your intention to try and support your position by bringing up ludicrous examples? Are singers now recruited to major universities and held up as examples or icons for the institutions? How many singers graduate college and make lasting impressions on millions of people?
Honestly CPZL...I apologize if you took offense...it was sincerely not meant that way. It was just meant to ask an honest question (because I do not know the answer) if the Academies allow "buy outs" (again...not sure if that is the correct terminology) for professions that are not sports related????? I'm sorry if you took offense...it was not meant to be a "stupid" question. But if you can't take the time to answer it in a polite way...then never mind. I have tried my BEST to be civil in this discussion and not point any fingers PERSONALLY or "name call"....instead I have questioned the military/academies and perhaps society in general for putting "athletes" above the average soldier. I have gone out of my way to say I do not know Mr. Bolt...and I wish him the best. He is only pursuing avenues that the MILITARY and ACADEMY have allowed for him. But we are allowed to disagree on whether those avenues should be allowed to exist. We are allowed to ask questions and debate. Altho, I do not think I have had ANY of my "questions" answered directly except by answers like "when asked, he will serve with honor" and to be called "ludicrous" by you. Honestly, I think the same word COULD be used for the policy in place....but instead of calling it that I have asked some questions and pointed out some examples that have been conveniently ignored.
But..thanks for the input!
LUVBB,
Are singers now recruited to major universities and held up as examples or icons for the institutions? How many singers graduate college and make lasting impressions on millions of people?
****************************
But..to answer your question...I would say definitely YES!!!! Obviously you do not know how hard it is to get into some performing arts majors at major universities...let alone into performing arts colleges (hmmmm....a specialization school...sort of like an "academy"?)???? Yes, the best are contacted and asked to apply. And yes..there are major scholarships for those talented enough. And in answer to your question..I would venture to guess there are about the SAME number of performing artists who have graduated from college and have made a lasting impression on millions of people as there are baseball players who have gone the same route. AND..probably an equally minimal number of each actually become successful enough to make a good living at it. The success rate for both are probably minimal. Singing "backup" I would equate to getting your feet wet in the minors. So personally...I do not think the "comparison" is all that LUDICROUS...EXCEPT for the fact that performing artists aren't asked to serve their country in return for their education....but, again I ask my question...what would happen if an academy graduate was offered an opportunity equally as prestigious as an athlete playing minor league ball? I guess from your "ludicrous" reply you do not think ANYTHING could be on equal footing outside of the athletic realm. But then again...I think our culture has placed way too much of an importance on BOTH professional athletes AND performing artists. Altho, from your "ludicrous" argument....I guess we are safe to assume you only fall into the category of only promoting the former.
Are singers now recruited to major universities and held up as examples or icons for the institutions? How many singers graduate college and make lasting impressions on millions of people?
****************************
But..to answer your question...I would say definitely YES!!!! Obviously you do not know how hard it is to get into some performing arts majors at major universities...let alone into performing arts colleges (hmmmm....a specialization school...sort of like an "academy"?)???? Yes, the best are contacted and asked to apply. And yes..there are major scholarships for those talented enough. And in answer to your question..I would venture to guess there are about the SAME number of performing artists who have graduated from college and have made a lasting impression on millions of people as there are baseball players who have gone the same route. AND..probably an equally minimal number of each actually become successful enough to make a good living at it. The success rate for both are probably minimal. Singing "backup" I would equate to getting your feet wet in the minors. So personally...I do not think the "comparison" is all that LUDICROUS...EXCEPT for the fact that performing artists aren't asked to serve their country in return for their education....but, again I ask my question...what would happen if an academy graduate was offered an opportunity equally as prestigious as an athlete playing minor league ball? I guess from your "ludicrous" reply you do not think ANYTHING could be on equal footing outside of the athletic realm. But then again...I think our culture has placed way too much of an importance on BOTH professional athletes AND performing artists. Altho, from your "ludicrous" argument....I guess we are safe to assume you only fall into the category of only promoting the former.
Perhaps you could investigate the USMA's policy on smilies; then you would have understood the Bono comment.
And if the question wasn't ludicrous, is there an answer?
OK, I'll give you the names of the graduates who disagreed, and you can give me the names of yours. Rather reminds me of the old saw about the child who was told to eat their vegetables because there were starving children in Ethiopia. "Yeah? Name one."
I'm not refusing to understand the subject. (Isn't it odd the way someone in disageeement just "doesn't understand'?) I'm not agreeing with the policy.
There is no "unfairness" as far as the cadets who are drafted (an ironic word in this context) are concerned. The unfairness lies in the applicant who intended to make good on a five year commitment to the military who was not accepted in favor of the applicant with alternate aspirations, the personnel who serve, most particularly in Iraq, leaving difficult circumstances to those they have left behind, and the recruits who are led to believe, by that 'pro sports' example, that their personal aspirations will be taken into consideration for their assignment.
Alas, the army having a policy doesn't make it righteous.
And if the question wasn't ludicrous, is there an answer?
OK, I'll give you the names of the graduates who disagreed, and you can give me the names of yours. Rather reminds me of the old saw about the child who was told to eat their vegetables because there were starving children in Ethiopia. "Yeah? Name one."
I'm not refusing to understand the subject. (Isn't it odd the way someone in disageeement just "doesn't understand'?) I'm not agreeing with the policy.
There is no "unfairness" as far as the cadets who are drafted (an ironic word in this context) are concerned. The unfairness lies in the applicant who intended to make good on a five year commitment to the military who was not accepted in favor of the applicant with alternate aspirations, the personnel who serve, most particularly in Iraq, leaving difficult circumstances to those they have left behind, and the recruits who are led to believe, by that 'pro sports' example, that their personal aspirations will be taken into consideration for their assignment.
Alas, the army having a policy doesn't make it righteous.
we'd be remiss if we didn't mention the rest of the teamquote:by MCO: Although I might hold up Bono as a singer who fits that bill
Oh, Bee, U2?
http://christianmusic.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?...ww.standyesteady.com
WOW....West Point Glee Club has CD's available. I would guess there are some very good singers in that club!
WOW....West Point Glee Club has CD's available. I would guess there are some very good singers in that club!
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
With respect, CPLZ, I don't think minor league ballplayers are held up as icons (even on this site) or "make lasting impressions on millions of people". You're waaayyyy ahead of yourself there.
Although I might hold up Bono as a singer who fits that bill.
The question is hardly ludicrous. The question was, are professional sports the only career that would outrank that of an Academy-educated officer?
Attending a civilian university prepares one for a universe of potential careers; attending a service Academy holds a specific and important commitment. I'm frankly surprised that the Academy allows entry with an alternate path as a goal.
You explained the policy and it is understood. I believe we are allowed to disagree with it, as do previous graduates of West Point.
Sure, after graduating Cadets (and Midshipmen too) have agreed to 5 years of duty. Does anywhere specifically state those 5 years must be done right this second after graduation??
What many do not realize probably is that there are a few who have been drafted, played one summer of ball, and then went to active duty. ARMY's catcher, umm Williamson I believe was the name, was drafted by the Detroit Tigers, played one summer and last I knew was in Iraq. The Army didn't have to give him that summer off to play ball. The leave he used is given to ALL graduates-- 60 days leave after graduation. So far Karl Bolt has used his leave and then was granted additional leave that puts him in the negative for the next year.
Orlando, I kinda started up top and then got carried away with something else. I've put in bold something I feel people don't quite understand about the Service Academies. Sure, one purpose is to develop officers for the respective branch (West Point- Army, Annapolis- Navy and Marine Corps, Air Force- Air Force) but that is not the only purpose. I was going to post the West Point Mission, however reviewing it just now it would contradict my point. West Point was not started to only create officers in the Army. It was an engineering school and still is an engineering school. If the SOLE PURPOSE was to develop war fighters, then why would they have computer science classes or PE classes, etc?
West Point's Mission is this:
"To educate, train, and inspire the Corps of Cadets so that each graduate is a commissioned leader of character committed to the values of Duty, Honor, Country and prepared for a career of professional excellence and service to the Nation as an officer in the United States Army."
But they are also creating LEADERS. Business leaders, politicians, teachers, etc. The government realizes the Army is not for everyone. They have found many West Point graduates are leaving as soon after graduation as possible. For some, that's a year or two; for others it's 5 years. Meanwhile, others stay for many years; 20, 30 years or maybe more. But not all of them could do that. My uncle has a nephew on the other side of the family who graduated West Point in 1999; he was out of the military shortly after September 11. I believe he did maybe one tour in Afghanistan. Now he works in the business world.
Final point. Orlando, you made mention in a later post about the "recruits led to believe their personal aspirations will be taken into consideration for their assignment." It isn't a LEAD ON. Their personal aspirations ARE taken into consideration! As a graduate of an Academy, it depends on class rank. As a recruit who is enlisting, it depends on if that particular slot is available. A recruit typically gets to choose his or her MOS and sometimes even gets to choose his or her first duty station. Now if you screw up and say fail out of a specific class, you could get shipped anywhere for your first duty station. If you were to fail something, you become AT NEED OF THE ARMY. These graduates are much the same. Right now the Army needs recruiters.
quote:You are opposed to a pre arranged and explicit program that benefits greatly, both the Service and a Cadet and somehow want to find unfairness where none exists.
Okay...here is the question that no one seems to be able to answer so far. I will try ONCE AGAIN. Can someone please explain to me how this policy "benefits" the enlisted men and women in the service (from where the GREATEST manpower comes from in all the branches of the service) who do not have the same options for "alternate assignments" and delays in service as an Academy Grad/professional athlete???? This, IMO is where the unfairness DOES exist. Please explain how the lack of "alternate assignments" is FAIR when both mom AND dad are sent overseas. Please explain how the lack of "alternate assignments" is FAIR to the reservist who is re-assigned overseas after already serving his time. BUT, "alternate assignment" IS available to an academy grad/ballplayer. How is that disparity GOOD for the service? Again...I am talking POLICY...not personal.
Let me reiterate AGAIN, this is a question about POLICY....NOT about a cadet's option to utilize that policy. And yes, I understand it is "pre-arranged and agreed" upon by the cadet and the academy. I am not questioning THAT. I AM questioning whether this is a policy JUST for athletes in academies...and I am questioning HOW is it fair to the vast majority of our service men and woman who ARE serving overseas without benefit of "options" even under difficult cirmstances?
I do not understand why terms such as "unwillingness to listen" and "ludicrous" are callously thrown about due to "questioning" and "differing opinions". NO ONE has to agree here...and it is apparent no one will! However, a "polite" dialogue might be nice. But I do find it interesting that people tend to get mean-spirited and veer away from answering questions when opinions are different.
quote:Originally posted by luvbb:
LUVBB,
Are singers now recruited to major universities and held up as examples or icons for the institutions? How many singers graduate college and make lasting impressions on millions of people?
****************************
But..to answer your question...I would say definitely YES!!!! Obviously you do not know how hard it is to get into some performing arts majors at major universities...let alone into performing arts colleges (hmmmm....a specialization school...sort of like an "academy"?)???? Yes, the best are contacted and asked to apply. And yes..there are major scholarships for those talented enough. And in answer to your question..I would venture to guess there are about the SAME number of performing artists who have graduated from college and have made a lasting impression on millions of people as there are baseball players who have gone the same route. AND..probably an equally minimal number of each actually become successful enough to make a good living at it. The success rate for both are probably minimal. Singing "backup" I would equate to getting your feet wet in the minors. So personally...I do not think the "comparison" is all that LUDICROUS...EXCEPT for the fact that performing artists aren't asked to serve their country in return for their education....but, again I ask my question...what would happen if an academy graduate was offered an opportunity equally as prestigious as an athlete playing minor league ball? I guess from your "ludicrous" reply you do not think ANYTHING could be on equal footing outside of the athletic realm. But then again...I think our culture has placed way too much of an importance on BOTH professional athletes AND performing artists. Altho, from your "ludicrous" argument....I guess we are safe to assume you only fall into the category of only promoting the former.
Ok, name 10 famous singers and what college they went to.
I fully appreciate the goal of the Academies and know that all graduates will not be 'on the ground'. Particularly if they graduate from USAFA ) But that doesn't change the point that their work, be it in engineering, administration, logistics, in further training of subsequent cadets, or any one of a number of alternatives should be in service of their country as an officer for, at a minimum, the stated tour of duty, be it 4, 5 or 7 as it has been at one time or another.
Of course, the individual cadet's talents and professional goals should be taken into consideration; it's the best use of personnel. I'm just maintaining that, for Academy graduates, it should be within the realm of the service who educated them.
And of course recruits (not Academy graduates) choose their service based on their interests and request duty. But I would think it is naive to suggest that their requests are universally accommodated or only their failure at that choice would lead them into a choice made by their branch of the service. Needs are needs, and the military will fill their own needs as opposed to taking into consideration the individual's. Were that the case, Hawaii and the Mediteranean would house more troops than Iraq.
I am further aware that graduates have leave after graduation. The question comes in when that leave is over: if that short season is successful, is the graduate a ballplayer with an offseason job of, say, recruiter, or an officer as he commited to be?
This question seems to arise out of the vast over-valuation of professional athletes.
) But that doesn't change the point that their work, be it in engineering, administration, logistics, in further training of subsequent cadets, or any one of a number of alternatives should be in service of their country as an officer for, at a minimum, the stated tour of duty, be it 4, 5 or 7 as it has been at one time or another.Of course, the individual cadet's talents and professional goals should be taken into consideration; it's the best use of personnel. I'm just maintaining that, for Academy graduates, it should be within the realm of the service who educated them.
And of course recruits (not Academy graduates) choose their service based on their interests and request duty. But I would think it is naive to suggest that their requests are universally accommodated or only their failure at that choice would lead them into a choice made by their branch of the service. Needs are needs, and the military will fill their own needs as opposed to taking into consideration the individual's. Were that the case, Hawaii and the Mediteranean would house more troops than Iraq.
I am further aware that graduates have leave after graduation. The question comes in when that leave is over: if that short season is successful, is the graduate a ballplayer with an offseason job of, say, recruiter, or an officer as he commited to be?
This question seems to arise out of the vast over-valuation of professional athletes.
quote:Originally posted by luvbb:quote:You are opposed to a pre arranged and explicit program that benefits greatly, both the Service and a Cadet and somehow want to find unfairness where none exists.
Okay...here is the question that no one seems to be able to answer so far. I will try ONCE AGAIN. Can someone please explain to me how this policy "benefits" the enlisted men and women in the service (from where the GREATEST manpower comes from in all the branches of the service) who do not have the same options for "alternate assignments" and delays in service as an Academy Grad/professional athlete???? This, IMO is where the unfairness DOES exist.
Again, this is a question about POLICY....NOT about a cadet's option to utilize that policy. And yes, I understand it is "pre-arranged and agreed" upon by the cadet and the academy. I am not questioning THAT. I AM questioning whether this is a policy JUST for athletes in academies...and I am questioning HOW is it fair to the vast majority of our service men and woman who ARE serving overseas without benefit of "options".
It does not benefit enlisted personal already in service. However, it is not unfair to them either. That's like saying it is unfair to have a God given ability and be given special priveleges to use it...like make millions of dollars throwing a fastball...or getting a record contract for singing.
No, there are not options to personel for singing. Why would there be? The service cannot use this to their advantage the same way. Universities across America have publicity and marketing departments. These departments use the talents of students within their universities to further themselves. Every college in America participates in this endeavor. Now however, according to you, there is some unfairness when people are allowed options that are not available to other people. I have yet to hear another cadet, service person, retired service, or former grad stand up say they believe this policy to be unfair, yet you point to this as unfair. Army graduated 7 seniors from their baseball team last year. The 5 who are currently serving active duty are thrilled that their other two teammates are playing pro ball. Every cadet I have talked to thinks that the idea of having a high caliber baseball team is really cool. They love the idea that they went to school with guys who might be a major leaguer some day (kinda like civilian universities and non enlisted people).
Why must you purport that people currently serving would think this unfair. This is a voulunteer Army. No one is serving against their will. They didn't enlist in the service or at West Point and then turn and point a finger and ask why someone else is being treated "better" or "differently". You are simply making that up and it doesn't hold water.
The service is trying to use its personal to best benefit themselves. If that means that they can get millions of dollars of free PR and advertising by allowing an occasional cadet to turn pro, they have shown that's an investment they want to make...just the same as any other university in America. Your whole argument is based on the "burden of duty principle". What you fail to realize, is the duty is not considered a burden by the people who bear it, it is considered a privilege. When you come to terms with that, you will be a little closer to understanding how the cadet is torn between baseball and service to his country, and not fleeing an obligation.
CPLZ, your question about college graduate famous singers diverts the question as to whether there are any other careers, other than pro sports, for which a commitment to the service Academies can be "modified".
Of course, that also begs the question as to whether a modified commitment can be called a commitment.
Performance artists who attend college are generally in the realm of chorales or opera; you, then, might argue that they're not 'famous enough'. Immaterial. The original question remains unanswered.
Of course, that also begs the question as to whether a modified commitment can be called a commitment.
Performance artists who attend college are generally in the realm of chorales or opera; you, then, might argue that they're not 'famous enough'.
Immaterial. The original question remains unanswered.quote:Ok, name 10 famous singers and what college they went to.
Okay..you want to play games now. But all's fair...please answer MY question mentioned above when I'm done:
Art Garfunkel - Columbia
Garth Brooks - Oklahoma State
Miles Davis - Julliard (sorry..not sure if that
is actually a 'college' or not...but prestigious
nonetheless...feel free to NOT count it among
my TEN)
Michael Stipe (REM) - U of Georgia
Mick Jagger - London School of Economics
George Strait - SW Texas State
Bob Dylan - U of Minnesota
Patti Smith - Glassboro
Gene Simmons - Sullivan College
Harry Connick Jr. - Hunter College and
Manhattan School of Music
David Byrne - Rhode Island School of Design
Paul Simon - Queens College
Stephen Stills - University of Florida
Grace Slick - University of Miami
Kenny Chesney - East Tennessee State
Herbie Hancock - Grinnell College
Sheryl Crow - U of Missouri
Kenny G - U of Washington
Kris Kristofferson - Oxford (Rhodes Scholar)
Peter Wolf - Boston Museum School of Fine Arts
Just a quick google search...do you want more?
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
And of course recruits (not Academy graduates) choose their service based on their interests and request duty. But I would think it is naive to suggest that their requests are universally accommodated or only their failure at that choice would lead them into a choice made by their branch of the service. Needs are needs, and the military will fill their own needs as opposed to taking into consideration the individual's. Were that the case, Hawaii and the Mediteranean would house more troops than Iraq.
I am further aware that graduates have leave after graduation. The question comes in when that leave is over: if that short season is successful, is the graduate a ballplayer with an offseason job of, say, recruiter, or an officer as he commited to be?
This question seems to arise out of the vast over-valuation of professional athletes.
You are wrong about enlistment. When you enlist, you have a contract that says exactly what duties you will perform in the service. The service doesn't change that, it would be breach. If you enlist for nuclear engineering, that's where you go.
As to which job comes first, take into account the high quality of the individual that they start with, then put 4 years of INTENSIVE molding into as West Point calls it, "Leaders of Character", and I believe you'll find the words, DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY, will answer that question.
As to the value of the player, it's a free market, and I'm proud to say that I did my part in the Army to defend that value and others.
quote:Originally posted by luvbb:quote:Ok, name 10 famous singers and what college they went to.
Okay..you want to play games now. But all's fair...please answer MY question mentioned above when I'm done:
Art Garfunkel - Columbia
Garth Brooks - Oklahoma State
Miles Davis - Julliard (sorry..not sure if that
is actually a 'college' or not...but prestigious
nonetheless...feel free to NOT count it among
my TEN)
Michael Stipe (REM) - U of Georgia
Mick Jagger - London School of Economics
George Strait - SW Texas State
Bob Dylan - U of Minnesota
Patti Smith - Glassboro
Gene Simmons - Sullivan College
Harry Connick Jr. - Hunter College and
Manhattan School of Music
David Byrne - Rhode Island School of Design
Paul Simon - Queens College
Stephen Stills - University of Florida
Grace Slick - University of Miami
Kenny Chesney - East Tennessee State
Herbie Hancock - Grinnell College
Sheryl Crow - U of Missouri
Kenny G - U of Washington
Kris Kristofferson - Oxford (Rhodes Scholar)
Peter Wolf - Boston Museum School of Fine Arts
Just a quick google search...do you want more?
Nope, my point is made...you didn't know a single one, you had to research it...most posters here could give you 10 baseball players and their colleges without having to google it. You shot your own argument in the foot with that one.
You, like Orlando, are hell bent on being right and refuse to listen. That's ok, people do that all the time.
quote:No, there are not options to personel for singing. Why would there be? The service cannot use this to their advantage the same way.
Seriously????? With the unprecedented and unparallelled prestige and influence that BOTH athletes AND performing artists have..you REALLY do not think if someone in the vein of a "Kenny Chesney" was an academy cadet and given an "alternate assignment" to develop his talents and appeal that it could not be used to the military's advantage????? Do you have teenaged kids?
Hey, if the military is going to use ATHLETES to their advantage in the PR department for "morale and honor" (according to EH)....then they sure as heck are missing out on a gold pile by overlooking performing artists. Who do the majority of our youth look up to and revere? Athletes and performing artists.
IMO..not so ludicrous.
But thank you for your explanation. I do not agree with it at all...personally, I see it as a rationalization for preferential treatment and another example of how the value of professional sports is overemphasized by our society, I know you will never see it that way. But I accept your viewpoint without ridicule or put downs. Thank goodness we live in America where differing viewpoints can be accomodated...thanks in large part to our military.
quote:most posters here could give you 10 baseball players and their colleges without having to google it.
Seriously, I couldn't do that either. No, I'm wrong..I could tell you that Pat Burrell/Miami and Chase Utley/UCLA but only because my daughter is obsessed with them....but my daughter didn't enroll at either of those colleges because of them either. Some of those musicians I could tell you off the top of my head too...because "to me" they are common knowledge. Maybe it is the male point of view vs. a woman's. Maybe it is because you pay way too much attention and put too much importance into knowing what colleges professional players attended????? For that matter..are you REALLY surprised I wouldn't know where pro baseball players went to college when I am espousing the idea of professional sports being too important in our society????
quote:You, like Orlando, are hell bent on being right and refuse to listen. That's ok, people do that all the time.
You see...there you go again. Too bad you can't have a civil discussion without getting "personal" when people do not happen to agree with your point of view. Do not assume I don't "listen" just because I don't agree with you. Listening isn't defined as "accepting". If YOU had been listening to ME you would understand that the point isn't to bend one to one's will here.
I have apologized for posting something that you took as an insult and ludicrous. I have TRIED to explain. I have answered your questions (you know..I couldn't tell you 10 types of military aircraft EITHER without googling...sorry....female moron here, guess I can't have an opinion on the military if I can't name those without googling)...I know for a FACT that you are out to WIN an argument...when I am interested in discussing without trying to CHANGE your mind. Do you SERIOUSLY think ANYONE would even TRY to change your mind when you take into consideration you are former military AND your son plays ball at West Point? I know for a fact that trying to discuss with YOU is ludicrous. If "googling" instead of knowing off the top of my head is your PROOF of victory...then I want YOU as opposing counsel some day. My QUESTION was whether West Point allows buyouts for non-athletes for goodness sakes!!!!! YOU are the one who has to have a person who questions "jump thru your hoops" before you'll answer. YOU are the one who wanted lists of performers!!!! And when I gave it to you...you resorted to adding in yet ANOTHER criteria (had to know it off the top of my head rather than google)..and then you say "I REFUSE TO LISTEN?????"
Thanks for proving what we are dealing with here: Your rules didn't work for you...so you changed them.....sound familiar????
To quote CPLZ "You shot your own argument in the foot with that one".
If baseball talent blossomed suddenly during a cadet's junior or senior year, I would be closer to understanding your justification. Prior to that, a cadet has the option of leaving the Academies without a commtiment to serve. Given the goal of a professional baseball career, a player certainly has the option of attending any one of a number of fine universities with strong baeball programs.
I certainly see that attending a service Academy is a priviledge; priviledges hold responsibilites.
I'm curious about this benefit to the military of "millions of dollars of free PR and advertising". As this website is the only place I've heard of the Academy grad as minor leaguer (and I tend to pay attention to Things Baseball), I might suggest their ad campaign is ineffective.
----
Your snide comment to luvbb about having to research singers and their colleges was inappropriate. People interested in performance artists would know that information and would not know what college any given pro ballplayer attended. Being more interested in sport does not make your arguement stronger.
------
Perhaps you are unaware of the contracted tours of duty extended in Iraq at the dictate of the military. Breach? Then I guess that isn't actually happening.
-------
"You, like Orlando, are hell bent on being right and refuse to listen. That's ok, people do that all the time."
Oh, we're well aware of that. Here we have the pot lecturing the kettle on the subject of blackness.
I certainly see that attending a service Academy is a priviledge; priviledges hold responsibilites.
I'm curious about this benefit to the military of "millions of dollars of free PR and advertising". As this website is the only place I've heard of the Academy grad as minor leaguer (and I tend to pay attention to Things Baseball), I might suggest their ad campaign is ineffective.
----
Your snide comment to luvbb about having to research singers and their colleges was inappropriate. People interested in performance artists would know that information and would not know what college any given pro ballplayer attended. Being more interested in sport does not make your arguement stronger.
------
Perhaps you are unaware of the contracted tours of duty extended in Iraq at the dictate of the military. Breach? Then I guess that isn't actually happening.
-------
"You, like Orlando, are hell bent on being right and refuse to listen. That's ok, people do that all the time."
Oh, we're well aware of that. Here we have the pot lecturing the kettle on the subject of blackness.
cpzl your support for a cadet pursuing another career is admirable, but your logic is a mess
tho I'll retract when I see my first
"Be ALL YOU CAN BE ... a switch hitting 1B" commercial
a guy who expresses aspirations to be a pro athelete during the application process would never even sniff an Academy appointment
tho I'll retract when I see my first
"Be ALL YOU CAN BE ... a switch hitting 1B" commercial
a guy who expresses aspirations to be a pro athelete during the application process would never even sniff an Academy appointment
quote:Hey, if the military is going to use ATHLETES to their advantage in the PR department for "morale and honor" (according to EH)....then they sure as heck are missing out on a gold pile by overlooking performing artists. Who do the majority of our youth look up to and revere? Athletes and performing artists.
Have you ever heard of the USO, And Bob Hope. Google It.
They are sent overseas to boost morale, and they are Honored to do it.
They use the Military Musicians most of the time.
These Military Musicians travel with the USO tour.
They are also trained as Rifleman, Field Artillary and the such.
Not one Soldier has ever complained about there Assignment's.
EH
quote:Have you ever heard of the USO, And Bob Hope. Google It.
They are sent overseas to boost morale, and they are Honored to do it.
They use the Military Musicians most of the time.
These Military Musicians travel with the USO tour.
They are also trained as Rifleman, Field Artillary and the such.
First off...Bob Hope and his tour were NOT academy grads or even servicement for that matter. They were volunteers who took it upon themselves to be morale boosters. And yes, there are military musicians. Heck...there are military BASEBALL TEAMS (google it)....hmmmm, now there is a novel concept.
http://www.uso.org/
Look it up, Yes it is Voluntary service to some entertainer's.
But not to the people who put on the show.
Welcome to The USO
The USO is a private, nonprofit organization whose mission is to support the troops by providing morale, welfare and recreation-type services to our men and women in uniform. The original intent of Congress — and enduring style of USO delivery — is to represent the American people by extending a touch of home to the military. The USO currently operates more than 130 centers worldwide, including ten mobile canteens located in the continental United States and overseas. Overseas centers are located in Germany, Italy, the United Arab Emirates, Japan, Qatar, Korea, Afghanistan, Guam, and Kuwait. Service members and their families visit USO centers more than 5.3 million times each year. The USO is the way the American public supports the troops.
Look it up, Yes it is Voluntary service to some entertainer's.
But not to the people who put on the show.
Welcome to The USO
The USO is a private, nonprofit organization whose mission is to support the troops by providing morale, welfare and recreation-type services to our men and women in uniform. The original intent of Congress — and enduring style of USO delivery — is to represent the American people by extending a touch of home to the military. The USO currently operates more than 130 centers worldwide, including ten mobile canteens located in the continental United States and overseas. Overseas centers are located in Germany, Italy, the United Arab Emirates, Japan, Qatar, Korea, Afghanistan, Guam, and Kuwait. Service members and their families visit USO centers more than 5.3 million times each year. The USO is the way the American public supports the troops.
Eh...what can I say? Is it a military strategy to "confound, confuse, conquer and destroy" someone with an opposing view point???
For that matter....it was CPZL who said:
No, there are not options to personel for singing. Why would there be? The service cannot use this to their advantage the same way.
Not me....I was saying that they SHOULD use performers for their positive PR. If they are going to give exemptions to athletes..do it for performers as well.
And CPZL says that "I" am hellbent on not listening and being right??????
For that matter....it was CPZL who said:
No, there are not options to personel for singing. Why would there be? The service cannot use this to their advantage the same way.
Not me....I was saying that they SHOULD use performers for their positive PR. If they are going to give exemptions to athletes..do it for performers as well.
And CPZL says that "I" am hellbent on not listening and being right??????
As I said Before, I understand Your's, Orlando's, and other's point of View.
And it is great that we can discuss this here.
Do you understand my point of view.
EH
And it is great that we can discuss this here.
Do you understand my point of view.
EH
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
Oh, we're well aware of that. Here we have the pot lecturing the kettle on the subject of blackness.
and let's add Orlando's tag line...
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not
one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." --- Terry Pratchett
huh...
Bulldog 19....I wanted to thank you for explaining some principles in your last post. It was informative. Thanks.
What does bringing up the USO have to do with the discussion?
Bee>, you are funny.
I agree, there is a matter of opinion on both sides and opinions should be repsected.
Getting back to the original discussion, I still can't see how "special circumstances" includes baseball.
Good for morale? Go take 1000.00 out of the bank and buy 100 ten dollar phone cards. That boosts morale. Or send DVD copies of the World Series to the bases.
I keep thinking of Pat Tillman, he GAVE UP a lucrative sports career to go to Afghanistan.
Bee>, you are funny.
I agree, there is a matter of opinion on both sides and opinions should be repsected.
Getting back to the original discussion, I still can't see how "special circumstances" includes baseball.
Good for morale? Go take 1000.00 out of the bank and buy 100 ten dollar phone cards. That boosts morale. Or send DVD copies of the World Series to the bases.
I keep thinking of Pat Tillman, he GAVE UP a lucrative sports career to go to Afghanistan.
quote:Bee>, you are funny.
I agree TPM...I'm having fun "visualizing" that commercial!
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
Oh, we're well aware of that. Here we have the pot lecturing the kettle on the subject of blackness.
and let's add Orlando's tag line...
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not
one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." --- Terry Pratchett
huh...
Oh, for heaven's sake. I infer by that that you are under the impression that anyone not agreeing with your take on the situation and policy is displaying ignorance. Such arrogance would fit with a commitment that is self-defined.
My son enlisted in the Army at West Point to lead the brave men and women of this country into battle at risk of his own life. Pat Tillman had already made millions, and when one of his young teammates wanted to enlist with him, Tillmans advice was to make his money in pro ball first and then serve.
Please do not make light of the comittment which I in the past and my son now have made for sport of your argument.
Condemning young men for wanting to pursue the same dreams that your sons have is a double standard. We don't ask anything of you, but are willing to lay down our life for your freedom.
Bring that up next time you want to talk about what is fair and unfair, and don't pretend to stand up for those already in service to their country if you have never served. It's easy to have an opinion from the comfort of your easy chair. It's quite another matter to sign on the dotted line and be willing to pay the ultimate price. It goes to a whole new level when you stand behind your principles and watch your son take up the mantle of burden and risk.
My son wants to play professional baseball. If he doesn't get his wish, he goes to war to defend our country. Stand beside him or go to hell, your choice.
Please do not make light of the comittment which I in the past and my son now have made for sport of your argument.
Condemning young men for wanting to pursue the same dreams that your sons have is a double standard. We don't ask anything of you, but are willing to lay down our life for your freedom.
Bring that up next time you want to talk about what is fair and unfair, and don't pretend to stand up for those already in service to their country if you have never served. It's easy to have an opinion from the comfort of your easy chair. It's quite another matter to sign on the dotted line and be willing to pay the ultimate price. It goes to a whole new level when you stand behind your principles and watch your son take up the mantle of burden and risk.
My son wants to play professional baseball. If he doesn't get his wish, he goes to war to defend our country. Stand beside him or go to hell, your choice.
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:
Condemning young men for wanting to pursue the same dreams that your sons have is a double standard. We don't ask anything of you, but are willing to lay down our life for your freedom.
Bring that up next time you want to talk about what is fair and unfair, and don't pretend to stand up for those already in service to their country if you have never served. It's easy to have an opinion from the comfort of your easy chair. It's quite another matter to sign on the dotted line and be willing to pay the ultimate price. It goes to a whole new level when you stand behind your principles and watch your son take up the mantle of burden and risk.
My son wants to play professional baseball. If he doesn't get his wish, he goes to war to defend our country. Stand beside him or go to hell, your choice.
Your comments are definetly uncalled for. People are entitled to their opinions, it's comments like you have made above that makes the whole thing harder to understand.
My first question was and still is, why should pro baseball be a special circumstance to get out of a commitment, any commitment?
My son made an agreement with his school, he would show up for class, maintain a certain GPA, and show up for practice and games, in exchange he would get his college education paid for. If this didn't happen, or he changed his mind, he would lose his scholarhip. I expected him to live up to his commitment and agreement. I did not expect him to ask the coach if he could have a year off to do something else then come back and play. Do you understand that analogy.
Second question. Does that happen in the service academies? If they do not play baseball do they lose their scholarhips?
TPM, Orlando, luvbb,
With all do Respect.
You did question Young Officers Commitment to there Obligation, And there commitment to there Country.
And I did not care for what you implied.
You can say if you want that you were not questioning there Loyalty.
But I did not read it that way from what you have written.
You all have know idea the Officers involved, and what there commitment is are will be in the future.
Do you understand my point of view now???
EH
With all do Respect.
You did question Young Officers Commitment to there Obligation, And there commitment to there Country.
And I did not care for what you implied.
You can say if you want that you were not questioning there Loyalty.
But I did not read it that way from what you have written.
You all have know idea the Officers involved, and what there commitment is are will be in the future.
Do you understand my point of view now???
EH
Eh...for SOME reason you seem to be unable to distinguish between questioning a POLICY and a personal attack. WE UNDERSTAND FULLY that these young men are not breaking any rules....but we are questioning the POLICY. Yes, there has been name calling, personal attacks and questioning of motives. I suggest you re-read the thread and use an objective viewpoint this time.
hint: "Go to hell" might be a clue
hint: "Go to hell" might be a clue
quote:And THIS is why we question the policy. Defending our country is #2 on the list and apparently the academies/military are A-ok with it.
Yes they are, A-ok with it.
Now I'm going to go beat my brains out against a Brick wall.
Maybe it will understand my point of view.
EH
Well luvbb, you did question loyalty and commitment.
I've read and Reread this post.
And thats the conclusion that I come away with.
You now question are militaries motive's.
How disloyal is that.
EH
I've read and Reread this post.
And thats the conclusion that I come away with.
You now question are militaries motive's.
How disloyal is that.
EH
EH,
Your point of view has always been understood, go back and read my posts.
Questioning military motives is DISLOYAL? Where did you come up with that one?
I never said anything about the young man or any young men regarding them being nothing but fine young men.
I was trying to make a point about commitments. When is it ok to put off commitment for ANYTHING and when is it not ok? Orlando and luvbb have brought up good points in the discussion, asking questions that are not answered. Is playing baseball an exception?
What is the military POLICY for not keeping commitments? At sons school it's no more $$$.
Before you beat your head against the wall, I asked and have asked over and over again. Why should playing pro baseball be a special circumstance. I don't want to hear about morale booster and it's a good recruiting tool.
Can you answer that question?
Your point of view has always been understood, go back and read my posts.
Questioning military motives is DISLOYAL? Where did you come up with that one?
I never said anything about the young man or any young men regarding them being nothing but fine young men.
I was trying to make a point about commitments. When is it ok to put off commitment for ANYTHING and when is it not ok? Orlando and luvbb have brought up good points in the discussion, asking questions that are not answered. Is playing baseball an exception?
What is the military POLICY for not keeping commitments? At sons school it's no more $$$.
Before you beat your head against the wall, I asked and have asked over and over again. Why should playing pro baseball be a special circumstance. I don't want to hear about morale booster and it's a good recruiting tool.
Can you answer that question?
quote:Eh...for SOME reason you seem to be unable to distinguish between questioning a POLICY and a personal attack. WE UNDERSTAND FULLY that these young men are not breaking any rules....
With this statement alone, you question there commitment an loyalty.
By saying there not breaking any rules,
But for unhonorable reasons there using the rules to there advantage, Like there sherking there duty.
And that is why I will not agree with what you say.
EH
quote:Before you beat your head against the wall, I asked and have asked over and over again. Why should playing pro baseball be a special circumstance. I don't want to hear about morale booster and it's a good recruiting tool.
Can you answer that question?
Joint he club TPM....good luck! LOL
I said before TPM, and other's that I understand your Point of View.
Do you understand mine and other's point of view.
By questioning the Military's motive's, You seem to think that it is not right for them to allow this young Officer's a chance to follow there Dream's.
I disagree.
I think they know what there doing when it come's to PR.
And luvbb, The Statement was,
My son wants to play professional baseball. If he doesn't get his wish, he goes to war to defend our country. Stand beside him or go to hell, your choice.
Don't take it out of context.
EH
Do you understand mine and other's point of view.
By questioning the Military's motive's, You seem to think that it is not right for them to allow this young Officer's a chance to follow there Dream's.
I disagree.
I think they know what there doing when it come's to PR.
And luvbb, The Statement was,
My son wants to play professional baseball. If he doesn't get his wish, he goes to war to defend our country. Stand beside him or go to hell, your choice.
Don't take it out of context.
EH
quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
EH,
Your point of view has always been understood, go back and read my posts.
Questioning military motives is DISLOYAL? Where did you come up with that one?
I never said anything about the young man or any young men regarding them being nothing but fine young men.
I was trying to make a point about commitments. When is it ok to put off commitment for ANYTHING and when is it not ok? Orlando and luvbb have brought up good points in the discussion, asking questions that are not answered. Is playing baseball an exception?
What is the military POLICY for not keeping commitments? At sons school it's no more $$$.
Before you beat your head against the wall, I asked and have asked over and over again. Why should playing pro baseball be a special circumstance. I don't want to hear about morale booster and it's a good recruiting tool.
Can you answer that question?
TPM, let me take a stab at your question about commitment...
First you asked about "if they (in reference to SA ballplayers) didn't play baseball, would they lose thier scholarship?" NO. Why? Because they are not there on a baseball scholarship.
Second, you ask about "putting off commitment for ANYTHING"... in the case of Nick Hill and his teammate (sorry name eludes me ATM) neither one of them are putting their commitment aside. Instead, they are serving as recruiters for the United States Army. That is their commitment. Nowhere does it say that a West Point graduate (nor Annapolis grad nor AFA grad) must go to Iraq or other overseas combat zone. It doesn't say it.
Clearing up?
quote:quote:
Eh...for SOME reason you seem to be unable to distinguish between questioning a POLICY and a personal attack. WE UNDERSTAND FULLY that these young men are not breaking any rules....
With this statement alone, you question there commitment an loyalty.
By saying there not breaking any rules,
But for unhonorable reasons there using the rules to there advantage, Like there sherking there duty.
WHAT?????!!!!!! Now I know what it is like dealing with bureaucratic double-talk. Of COURSE they are using the rules to their advantage. Is that the cadets' fault???? NOOOOOOOO....THAT is one of the reasons we are questioning the RULES, why they are how they are...and if they should be changed or altered given all the circumstances we laid out. Questions have been asked and "shirked" by some posters on this thread. Not too many straight answers except by Bulldog in this thread...which are appreciated. And then when we present an alternative view and are told "if we don't stand behind him"....we are told to "go to hell". All your talk about "honor"....does it not apply to common everyday courtesy?
And..you conveniently left out the last few words of my post when you posted it above.....the part where I say:
"We understand fully these young men are not breaking any rules...but we are questioning the POLICY".
How can that be any clearer????
quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
My first question was and still is, why should pro baseball be a special circumstance to get out of a commitment, any commitment?
They do not get out of anything, the Army chooses then to use them in a different capacity, one which is favorable to both the Army and the Cadet. This agreement is established before attendance is accepted. A rifle is not the only good use of a soldier.
My son made an agreement with his school, he would show up for class, maintain a certain GPA, and show up for practice and games, in exchange he would get his college education paid for. If this didn't happen, or he changed his mind, he would lose his scholarhip. I expected him to live up to his commitment and agreement. I did not expect him to ask the coach if he could have a year off to do something else then come back and play. Do you understand that analogy.
Your son may be a fine young man, I don't know, but to try and compare the lifestyle and commitment, just through the academic years, is quite frankly, absurd.
Second question. Does that happen in the service academies? If they do not play baseball do they lose their scholarhips?
Everyone at a service academy is on scholarship regardless of athletics.
CPLZ, Said stand beside him, Are Go to hell.
So are you going to stand beside him, Your choice.
There's no Double talk on my part.
I'm flat out saying, that your questioning these young Officers Commitment and Loyalty to there Country.
Is that plain and simple enough for you.
EH
So are you going to stand beside him, Your choice.
There's no Double talk on my part.
I'm flat out saying, that your questioning these young Officers Commitment and Loyalty to there Country.
Is that plain and simple enough for you.
EH
quote:My son wants to play professional baseball. If he doesn't get his wish, he goes to war to defend our country. Stand beside him or go to hell, your choice.
CPLZ, Said stand beside him, Are Go to hell.
So are you going to stand beside him, Your choice.
*************************
Well Eh..that depends...are we standing beside him on the baseball field or on the battlefield. The latter situation, definetly YES (altho, saying that from cushy armchair, I doubt I'll be believed)....on the ballfield? I don't think any of our boys need us to stand beside them there, especially one's with Academy educations.
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
EH,
Your point of view has always been understood, go back and read my posts.
Questioning military motives is DISLOYAL? Where did you come up with that one?
I never said anything about the young man or any young men regarding them being nothing but fine young men.
I was trying to make a point about commitments. When is it ok to put off commitment for ANYTHING and when is it not ok? Orlando and luvbb have brought up good points in the discussion, asking questions that are not answered. Is playing baseball an exception?
What is the military POLICY for not keeping commitments? At sons school it's no more $$$.
Before you beat your head against the wall, I asked and have asked over and over again. Why should playing pro baseball be a special circumstance. I don't want to hear about morale booster and it's a good recruiting tool.
Can you answer that question?
TPM, let me take a stab at your question about commitment...
First you asked about "if they (in reference to SA ballplayers) didn't play baseball, would they lose thier scholarship?" NO. Why? Because they are not there on a baseball scholarship.
Second, you ask about "putting off commitment for ANYTHING"... in the case of Nick Hill and his teammate (sorry name eludes me ATM) neither one of them are putting their commitment aside. Instead, they are serving as recruiters for the United States Army. That is their commitment. Nowhere does it say that a West Point graduate (nor Annapolis grad nor AFA grad) must go to Iraq or other overseas combat zone. It doesn't say it.
Clearing up?
Did anyone ever say they had to go to Iraq?
Yes, Bulldog, you are clearing things up, without malice or argument. If that is serving their country by way of promoting the academies and deemed acceptable, then thats it. They have not put off their commitment.
BTW, my brother made a commitment to the Naval reserve, got his engineering degree paid for by the Navy and served his duty flying helicopters into Nam to pick up wounded. It wasn't what he wanted to do but he did it. My father also made an agreement with the US government and earned his engineering degree and then served his time in the Air Force during WW2, he was to be assigned to a special team that designed the B52 that dropped the bomb. It wasn't what he really wanted to do, but he did it.
You are a smart young man.
quote:There's no Double talk on my part.
I'm flat out saying, that your questioning these young Officers Commitment and Loyalty to there Country.
Is that plain and simple enough for you.
EH
Sure is Eh! It is plain that after 5 pages of dialogue that you simply don't understand what any of us are trying to say.
luvbb, and other's I'm not here to defend the Military and there Policy's.
I am here to defend these young Officers and there motive's for wanting to persue a career in baseball.
As I said it's not a bad thing.
Embrace it.
And by the way CPLZ, I never Served.
It does not mean I'm any less concerned about a Soldier's Welfare.
EH
I am here to defend these young Officers and there motive's for wanting to persue a career in baseball.
As I said it's not a bad thing.
Embrace it.
And by the way CPLZ, I never Served.
It does not mean I'm any less concerned about a Soldier's Welfare.
EH
luvbb, Your on those same 5 pages.
Do you understand anybody else's point of view.
EH
Do you understand anybody else's point of view.
EH
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:
My son enlisted in the Army at West Point to lead the brave men and women of this country into battle at risk of his own life. Pat Tillman had already made millions, and when one of his young teammates wanted to enlist with him, Tillmans advice was to make his money in pro ball first and then serve.
Please do not make light of the comittment which I in the past and my son now have made for sport of your argument.
Condemning young men for wanting to pursue the same dreams that your sons have is a double standard. We don't ask anything of you, but are willing to lay down our life for your freedom.
Bring that up next time you want to talk about what is fair and unfair, and don't pretend to stand up for those already in service to their country if you have never served. It's easy to have an opinion from the comfort of your easy chair. It's quite another matter to sign on the dotted line and be willing to pay the ultimate price. It goes to a whole new level when you stand behind your principles and watch your son take up the mantle of burden and risk.
My son wants to play professional baseball. If he doesn't get his wish, he goes to war to defend our country. Stand beside him or go to hell, your choice.
Precisely. My posts have been in support of those who have elected to serve in the military, both as commissioned officers out of the Academies and in the ranks. People who committed without the personal reserve clause of ‘as long as I don’t get the opportunity to play professional sports instead.”
In my view, deciding that playing short season ball in Podunk is somehow worth “millions of dollars in free advertising and PR” is making light of the commitment of those who serve. Oh, and then a little TDY as a recruiter.
Your flag-waving post now is one of convenience; appropriate for cadets willing to serve, at least, their minimum term without alteration for an alternate career.
"My son enlisted in the Army at West Point to lead the brave men and women of this country into battle at risk of his own life." "My son wants to play professional baseball." Well, which is it?
Then later you say, "A rifle is not the only good use of a soldier." But wasn't that why he enlisted, according to your previous post?
quote:Did anyone ever say they had to go to Iraq?
Bulldog...a question....do you have any idea, percentage-wise, at West-Point (since that seems to be your area of expertise), how many graduating cadets get stationed overseas to serve their commitment (which I'm sure are in many different capacities)?
Orlando
There you go again Slamming one's commitment to there country and there obligation as a Officer.
Like there not as Loyal and Honorable as the next soldier.
Don't tell me TPM that is not what Orlando meant with this statement.
EH
quote:In my view, deciding that playing short season ball in Podunk is somehow worth “millions of dollars in free advertising and PR” is making light of the commitment of those who serve. Oh, and then a little TDY as a recruiter.
There you go again Slamming one's commitment to there country and there obligation as a Officer.
Like there not as Loyal and Honorable as the next soldier.
Don't tell me TPM that is not what Orlando meant with this statement.
EH
quote:luvbb, Your on those same 5 pages.
Do you understand anybody else's point of view.
EH
Let me summarize EH....because the academies and the US military have decided that it is in the best interest of certain academy graduates with high level athletic skills AND the military in general due to positive PR and morale issues....it would be mutually beneficial to accomodate those special skill sets and allow those officers to either "defer" or receive an "alternate assignment" in order to fully explore their professional options. This is a positive and mutually beneficial arrangement that best utilizes the graduating cadet's presitigous academy education. Oh yes...all cadets will with honor and commitment serve at anytime and anywhere the US military deems appropriate, without question and with full commitment. That this is the policy of the US military and academies and it is an agreement entered into mutually. Also, to question such policy is akin to questioning the commitment and honor of said cadets personally.
Oh yes...that Bob Hope (R.I.P.) and the U.S.O. are a good thing.
Did I get it?
Well luvbb, unfortunately I don't know that information off the top of my head. If I were to take a guess, I'd probably suggest no more than about 250 or so. Tell ya what, in between my schoolwork, I'll see if I can't dig that information up.
It will not be as high as you expect because none of their duty stations would be "Iraq." They would most likely be assigned to a base here CONUS and then deploy to Iraq or Afghanistan with their unit. OCONUS locations that would see graduates going to for their duty stations would include Korea, Italy, Kosovo, and Germany mainly I think.
Also, I believe something like 20% of a graduating class actually goes into a combat field. That's it.. now the thing is that a lot more find themselves in combat so that's decieving.
Finally, luvbb, I won't claim to be an expert about any of this. I believe I know a significant amount, but that's because I'm truly interested in the Service Academies and was EXTREMELY interested in going there. I have done a significant amount of research for that reason. But that doesn't make me an expert!
It will not be as high as you expect because none of their duty stations would be "Iraq." They would most likely be assigned to a base here CONUS and then deploy to Iraq or Afghanistan with their unit. OCONUS locations that would see graduates going to for their duty stations would include Korea, Italy, Kosovo, and Germany mainly I think.
Also, I believe something like 20% of a graduating class actually goes into a combat field. That's it.. now the thing is that a lot more find themselves in combat
so that's decieving.Finally, luvbb, I won't claim to be an expert about any of this. I believe I know a significant amount, but that's because I'm truly interested in the Service Academies and was EXTREMELY interested in going there. I have done a significant amount of research for that reason. But that doesn't make me an expert!
Bulldog..I didn't mean "Iraq" or "combat" specifically. I just meant "overseas" in general.
By the way, are you a high school or college student? I'm very impressed with how you handle yourself and your communciation skills.
By the way, are you a high school or college student? I'm very impressed with how you handle yourself and your communciation skills.
I realize you didn't mean Iraq.. but many would think people would be assigned there.
Must confess I'm no longer a high schooler.. I'm entering my 7th day of college classes in the morning
Must confess I'm no longer a high schooler.. I'm entering my 7th day of college classes in the morning
quote:Must confess I'm no longer a high schooler.. I'm entering my 7th day of college classes in the morning
Well...I think you are going to do just fine!
quote:Originally posted by theEH:
Orlandoquote:In my view, deciding that playing short season ball in Podunk is somehow worth “millions of dollars in free advertising and PR” is making light of the commitment of those who serve. Oh, and then a little TDY as a recruiter.
There you go again Slamming one's commitment to there country and there obligation as a Officer.
Like there not as Loyal and Honorable as the next soldier.
Don't tell me TPM that is not what Orlando meant with this statement.
EH
EH,
Not sure about all she meant but I do understand her comment about playing ss ball in podunk.
There are so many kids to aspire to go to college to play ball, and to play after their college careers end. Many don't get the chance to do either, because someone else was better than them and got the spot. So someone lost out. I think maybe you can understand that. I use that as an example to understand what luvbb and Orlando are trying to say.
My son plays professional ball, well he tried to anyway this summer but they shut him down. It's been a disappointment and he is working hard to get better because that is his dream, always has been. But I think if you ask him, even in the position he was drafted in, he would say there are definetly more important things in life before baseball. So I don't look at getting drafted as a special circumstance if an agreement was made. We put too much importance on the fact that baseball is more important than anything else in the world. That was what I was questioning.
I know we all love the game and want our sons to play at the highest level, but once you really understand the magnitute of the difficulty of reaching the highest level you might understand. Even those new ss guys understand that concept.It's just not a year, or two, or three, even for the best prospects in the country. So what determines how long someone can wait to put off what they promised. I never said he would not, that was not teh point, it was the importance of baseball compared to serving our country. I think the latter is much more important and I think they feel that way too.
I argue this at work, if you have a policy you follow it, if you don't have one be careful as you have to make sure that poicy is fair and makes sense for everyone. It can't be ok to tell a ball player they have a special circumstance when you can't tell a singer he can't go to hollywood to be the next idol. I think that is their point also.
I hope I explained that so that you would understand with out telling me or anyone else to go to h*ll.
JMO.
quote:So I don't look at getting drafted as a special circumstance if an agreement was made. We put too much importance on the fact that baseball is more important than anything else in the world. That was what I was questioning.
I know we all love the game and want our sons to play at the highest level, but once you really understand the magnitute of the difficulty of reaching the highest level you might understand. Even those new ss guys understand that concept.It's just not a year, or two, or three, even for the best prospects in the country. So what determines how long someone can wait to put off what they promised. I never said he would not, that was not teh point, it was the importance of baseball compared to serving our country. I think the latter is much more important and I think they feel that was too.
oh I just wanted to let you know that the other day after working with the pitching director, the guys had to put in "field time". For pitchers that was running the field. In 100 degree heat, 100% humidity he felt like he was going to be sick, and my son is in good condition.
They were told that was just a preview for fall instruction.
Pro ball is great, ain't it?
They were told that was just a preview for fall instruction.
Pro ball is great, ain't it?
quote:Originally posted by theEH:
Orlandoquote:In my view, deciding that playing short season ball in Podunk is somehow worth “millions of dollars in free advertising and PR” is making light of the commitment of those who serve. Oh, and then a little TDY as a recruiter.
There you go again Slamming one's commitment to there country and there obligation as a Officer.
Like there not as Loyal and Honorable as the next soldier.
Don't tell me TPM that is not what Orlando meant with this statement.
EH
EH. My post was in answer to CPZL's; hence the quoted post from him. In that post, he asked that the commitment made by those who enlist (in this case, he and his son) not be made light of. I answered that the Academies' policy and his own statements about the perceived PR and advertising value of playing minor league ball in Podunk (as regularly used in baseball circles to describe the small towns in which the introductory levels of baseball are played) made light of the commitment of those, be they Academy graduates or any other enlistees, who serve, as promised, in military endeavors, whatever they be.
As I have stated previously, I do not understand the 'advertising' value of toiling in the obscurity of the minors. And I do not agree with the policy of modifying the cadets' service in order to play professional sports as if that endeavor is more valuable than the one for which they originally committed.
I'm sure you will interpret this to mean whatever you so choose. Please try to read in context, at a minimum.
Thanks for your answer, TPM, but I have no idea why EH would call upon you to interpret my post.
I asked a person tonight I work with, Who just came back from a one year tour in Iraq. What his thoughts were on this subject,
Trying to get a Military point of view.
He went both ways with the subject matter,
Meaning he believes in there commitment.
But at the same time he understands the facters that goes into how the Military Uses Personel.
He said one guy he was stationed with, was on the all Navel Surf Team.
Now that would be a nice gig.
EH
Trying to get a Military point of view.
He went both ways with the subject matter,
Meaning he believes in there commitment.
But at the same time he understands the facters that goes into how the Military Uses Personel.
He said one guy he was stationed with, was on the all Navel Surf Team.
Now that would be a nice gig.
EH
quote:My posts have been in support of those who have elected to serve in the military, both as commissioned officers out of the Academies and in the ranks. People who committed without the personal reserve clause of ‘as long as I don’t get the opportunity to play professional sports instead.”
Questioning the policy is entirely fair game, statements like these are cheap shots imho.
It is my understanding that the officer in question was about to accept a D1 baseball scholarship in California and the military refused to accept no for an answer. They sweetened their offer by making the pro option available and the young man took the offer. It is entirely reasonable to question the military for making this type of offer, it is quite another to impugn the young man (and others) for accepting it.
Some random thoughts....
Is an enlisted man or officer who signs on to the military with a promise to get stationed in Hawaii somehow less honorable than the enlisted man or officer who gets stationed in some other less than desirable location?
Leaving the military after two years to pursue baseball seems reasonable at first glance but often, propects emerge later in their college careers. They are called senior signs in some cases and in other cases many prospects elevated their status remarkably by having phenomenal junior or senior campaigns.
I don't have a good answer for why the military allows players to pursue pro ball. My guess is it simply comes down to athletic recruiting. The coaches in question probably are asked by potential recruits about the possibilities of pro ball and they simply do not want to have to tell them this is off the table. For whatever reason, the military has chosen to provide D1 sports and apparently are willing to deal with the consequences of an exceptional athlete on an individual basis. Is that the correct policy?
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
In my view, deciding that playing short season ball in Podunk is somehow worth “millions of dollars in free advertising and PR” is making light of the commitment of those who serve. Oh, and then a little TDY as a recruiter.
My post was in answer to CPZL's; hence the quoted post from him. In that post, he asked that the commitment made by those who enlist (in this case, he and his son) not be made light of. I answered that the Academies' policy and his own statements about the perceived PR and advertising value of playing minor league ball in Podunk (as regularly used in baseball circles to describe the small towns in which the introductory levels of baseball are played) made light of the commitment of those, be they Academy graduates or any other enlistees, who serve, as promised, in military endeavors, whatever they be.
As I have stated previously, I do not understand the 'advertising' value of toiling in the obscurity of the minors. And I do not agree with the policy of modifying the cadets' service in order to play professional sports as if that endeavor is more valuable than the one for which they originally committed.
I'm sure you will interpret this to mean whatever you so choose. Please try to read in context, at a minimum.
This is the essence of your ignorance on the issue and evidence that you try and twist anything said.
You claimed to know alot about baseball, yet you've never heard of this policy. It's been in place 6 years now, so I guess you must not be as informed as you purport here.
Saying that the commitment as an Army recruiter in the off season is a little recruiting and some TDY, belittles the comittment and the person. Don't make these people out to be shirkers of duty and lying on a beach somewhere in a cushy job. The army spends hundreds of millions of dollars each year in marketing and advertising, obviously, they place a huge importance on recruiting.
They made a decision that they wanted to take the $350,000 investment they made in a cadet and let him try and make it in pro ball. Currently there are three players from West Point in pro ball, two of them just drafted this year. The other two players that were drafted out of West Point, both played one year and then went back into the Army to serve the remainder of their commitment more traditionally. So your assessment that they are "toiling in the obscurity of the minors" is again premature and ignorant. It's become obvious you lack the prerequisite knowledge to make such statements.
Lets do some math...A player, $350,000 investment. I believe the percentages are around %10 of players taken in the first 10 rounds make it to the pro's. So the Army would have to make a total investment of $3,500,000 to get 1 player into pro baseball. Two years served as an Army recruiter with a value of $50,000, so that deducts a total of $1,000,000 in payback of that investment. Then a buyout of $33,000 per player and now the investment is slightly over $2,000,000 for those 10 players. That is a drop in the advertising bucket over the span of years it will take to place 10 players in pro baseball. If one player lasts 5 years, the return on investment in publicity for the Army would be huge.
Now, let's look at it from an institutional perspective. Just like any college, the acadamies would like to field competitive teams. Having a high profile team brings positive publicity, which is why universities do it. The acadamies are no different than traditional universities in that regard, they want to compete for the highest caliber applicant they can. By offering the "pro service option", it helps recruiters because they don't have to take playing pro sports off the table to a top level recruit.
For those of you who want to argue, "he made a commitment, he should have to fulfill it", well, the Army made a commitment to him also, it's a two way street. The idea that somebody gets out of something is to demean the instilled values of that person. You may choose to ignore it, but all of the cadets so far have been torn between pro ball and the military. They choose pro ball, for the same reasons your son has/did/would, it has been their dream their whole life. It seems quite heavy handed to expect a young man to not only agree to lay his life on the line to defend his and your country, but tell him if he chooses to do it, he must throw away all his childhood dreams. No one is holding your sons up to that same threshold or scrutiny, nor would they want to.
The belief of the acadamies is, paraphrasing MacArthur, "our future leaders of America will come from the fields of friendly strife"...athletics. No institutions in the world place a higher value on conditioning and athletics than the academies. Part of a cadets GPA is formulated using physical assessment test scores. Every cadet at West Point is required to play a sport, whether at the club level, intramural, or intercollegiate. Courses like boxing, swimming, and physical fitness are required core courses. It makes perfect sense that an institution that so values athletics would do whatever it could to raise the level of its competitiveness. After all, isn't war the epitome of competition? It also stands to reason that it would want to showcase its best athletes to perspective cadet candidates through the pro ranks. These are young men with high morals, excellent academics, rock solid values.
As parents, wouldn't you prefer to see a person of that caliber succeeding in pro sports? The Army would like to hold up that person as an icon of what the acadamies produce, thereby publicizing to the parents of potential candidates the example of what they can expect their son or daughter to be as a result of graduation.
My son made a commitment to the Army to serve, with a proviso. The Army made a commitment to my son to provide an education and develop a leader of character, with a proviso. Both parties have every intention of living up to their commitment. The promises made are reciprical, not just on the part of the cadet.
I don't see the unfairness in offering my son the same opportunity to play professionally as your son has. When your son is forced to enlist and serve, that argument might hold water, but it doesn't in an all volunteer military.
quote:Questioning the policy is entirely fair game, statements like these are cheap shots imho.
With all due respect CD, I believe there have been more than ONE "cheapshot" in this thread that have been entirely irrelevent with discussing the policy:
"Bring that up next time you want to talk about what is fair and unfair, and don't pretend to stand up for those already in service to their country if you have never served. It's easy to have an opinion from the comfort of your easy chair."
So...those who have never served in the military are not permitted to stand up for our military...or offer opinions as they pertain to the military either? No need for an answer CD...just pointing out that "cheapshots" flow both ways.
quote:Originally posted by luvbb:quote:Questioning the policy is entirely fair game, statements like these are cheap shots imho.
With all due respect CD, I believe there have been more than ONE "cheapshot" in this thread that have been entirely irrelevent with discussing the policy:
"Bring that up next time you want to talk about what is fair and unfair, and don't pretend to stand up for those already in service to their country if you have never served. It's easy to have an opinion from the comfort of your easy chair."
So...those who have never served in the military are not permitted to stand up for our military...or offer opinions as they pertain to the military either? No need for an answer CD...just pointing out that "cheapshots" flow both ways.
Absolutely that was a shot, but there was nothing cheap about it, it was direct and right on target. You railed about being the champion of rights and judge of fairness for those already in service, yet you have zero experience and want to argue the point with someone who served. I earned my right to that opinion and it is formed from personal experience. The good news for you, is that I and all others who served earned your right to express your opinion also, regardless of its foundation. You and others have taken plenty of shots, that's what happens in a heated debate. I wouldn't characterize most of them as cheap. I'm not whining about it though, I have big shoulders, I can take it.
I may not agree with your opinion, but will defend to the death your right to state it.
In the land of the free and the home of the brave, freedom extends to everyone, yet the bravery is shouldered by a volunteered few.
So, from the comfort of your easy chair, you dictate...get off that baseball field and get out there defend our country right now mister.
cplz, kudos ... your support for cadet options is admirable & makes (some) sense - your drawn out arguments and math do not ...
& hey, that $350K or $3.5Mil is my $$ so my opinion counts too
& hey, that $350K or $3.5Mil is my $$ so my opinion counts too
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:
cplz, kudos ... your support for cadet options is admirable & makes (some) sense - your drawn out arguments and math do not ...
& hey, that $350K or $3.5Mil is my $$ so my opinion counts too
The good news is, that your opinon counts regardless of whether it's your money or not. That's what the brave men and women of this country defend.
lol -
But in 6 pages of emotion & comments, the only thing I've learned is that West Point has let a couple cadets use some "leave" and play 1-ONE-UNO short season before beginning active service.
it kinda sounds more like you're trying to convince youself otherwise -
and I do congratulate your cadet & wish him the best
But in 6 pages of emotion & comments, the only thing I've learned is that West Point has let a couple cadets use some "leave" and play 1-ONE-UNO short season before beginning active service.
it kinda sounds more like you're trying to convince youself otherwise -
and I do congratulate your cadet & wish him the best
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:
lol -
But in 6 pages of emotion & comments, the only thing I've learned is that West Point has let a couple cadets use some "leave" and play 1-ONE-UNO short season before beginning active service.
it kinda sounds more like you're trying to convince youself otherwise -
and I do congratulate your cadet & wish him the best
That's ok if that's what you took from this thread. But even that should prove two points...
1. How strong the commitment to the ideals of service to country are in these young men
2. That they could continue to play in the minors and avoid active duty if they were avoiding or dodging service, as has been suggested, yet put it aside to serve.
Thanks for your best wishes.
quote:So, from the comfort of your easy chair, you dictate...get off that baseball field and get out there defend our country right now mister.
Nope...I think it was the soldier himself who VOLUNTEERED to serve their country. Apparently it was the academies who decided they would better serve our country on the baseball field rather than elsewhere. And that is the disagreement I have.
"yet you have zero experience and want to argue the point with someone who served."I'm not whining about it though, I have big shoulders, I can take it.
This does get tiring..and it will be the last time I say this. I'm not ARGUING with you about ANYTHING. You are the one who has made this a personal issue...not me. My "beef" is with the academies and military who offer these "provisos". Why shouldn't any boy accept such an offer..you get the best of both worlds IF those are the two worlds you wish to be in. Also, since you really know NOTHING about me, my life, or my family....I think you are being quite presumptuous and arrogant in your assumptions. But hey...I guess you need those big shoulders to hold up that big head! NOt a "cheapshot"...right on target.
"The good news for you, is that I and all others who served earned your right to express your opinion also, regardless of its foundation."
And..I have said repeatedly I have nothing but respect for our military and thanks to them...we can have this discussion. BUT...you need to make up your mind...are we ALLOWED to express opinions or not? Before you said we couldn't if we never served personally.
"My son made a commitment to the Army to serve, with a proviso. The Army made a commitment to my son to provide an education and develop a leader of character, with a proviso."
To serve with "Proviso"...now THERE is a motto we can all be proud of. I'm thinking that it could be the closing tagline in that advertisement:
"Bee> all that you can be...a switch hitting first baseman"....."serve with proviso in today's Army".
quote:Originally posted by luvbb:
....I think you are being quite presumptuous and arrogant. But hey...I guess you need those big shoulders to hold up that big head! NOt a "cheapshot"...right on target.
I don't remember calling you a name, but if that's your best tactic, you're welcome to it. It's not presumptious to assume you have no experience with the military, it's quite obvious.
BUT...you need to make up your mind...are we ALLOWED to express opinions or not? Before you said we couldn't if we never served personally.
I don't remember ever saying that anyone wasn't allowed to express an opinion, I think you made that up. There is a monumental difference between allowing an opinion and considering the validity of an opinion...it's not my place to allow anything, I can however question the validity of an opinion whether based in ignorance or fact.
by cplz:
"But even that should prove two points..."
"1. How strong the commitment to the ideals of service to country are in these young men"
agree!
"2. That they could continue to play in the minors ..."
huh?, I can't get there .. you'll have to walk me thru #2 .. soo, you're saying the Army wanted them to stay in MiLB for the recruiting PR, but they chose to go active??
oops, I added while you were responding
"But even that should prove two points..."
"1. How strong the commitment to the ideals of service to country are in these young men"
agree!
"2. That they could continue to play in the minors ..."
huh?, I can't get there .. you'll have to walk me thru #2 .. soo, you're saying the Army wanted them to stay in MiLB for the recruiting PR, but they chose to go active??
oops, I added while you were responding
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:
by cplz:
"But even that should prove two points..."
"1. How strong the commitment to the ideals of service to country are in these young men"
agree!
"2. That they could continue to play in the minors ..."
huh?, you'll have to walk me thru #2
Bee, it has been suggested here that playing baseball is a way to "get out of their commitment". #2 was an attempt to demonstrate that if that was the intention of the player/cadet, they could have continued in the minor leagues and avoided active duty service. Instead they chose to quit pro baseball and serve in traditional active duty.
There isn't a lot of value to a minor leaguer. There is some, but that is more internally at the academy, rather than in the public. The value becomes pronounced when the player reaches the majors. The Army does encourage players to go pro, however I don't believe there is any pressure put on them to stay pro once they get there.
there is no basis for reaching that conclusion ...quote:by cplz: #2 was an attempt to demonstrate that if that was the intention of the player/cadet, they could have continued in the minor leagues and avoided active duty service.
someone else could just as easily conclude that the choice (quietly) given to them was
"begin your active service after 1 season - or face awol & the brig"
If anyone is further interested in discussing the policy in place with the military and academies I am more than willing to participate. But getting bogged down in insults and bullying is a waste of time and energy. I do not presume to know ANYTHING about you CPLZ, your family, your experiences...which is why I only TRIED to focus on policy, which was admittedly daunting at times. It is a shame you couldn't try to do the same.
I'll end with the same sentiment as the very first one I wrote you in this thread:
"CPZL..thank you for the elaboration on "how things work" at West Point. It was very interesting, and best of luck to your son."
So CPLZ...
have fun carrying on the rampage....and enjoy having the last word.
I'll end with the same sentiment as the very first one I wrote you in this thread:
"CPZL..thank you for the elaboration on "how things work" at West Point. It was very interesting, and best of luck to your son."
So CPLZ...
quote:Originally posted by luvbb:
If anyone is further interested in discussing the policy in place with the military and academies I am more than willing to participate. But getting bogged down in insults and bullying is a waste of time and energy. I do not presume to know ANYTHING about you CPLZ, your family, your experiences...which is why I only TRIED to focus on policy, which was admittedly daunting at times. It is a shame you couldn't try to do the same.
I'll end with the same sentiment as the very first one I wrote you in this thread:
"CPZL..thank you for the elaboration on "how things work" at West Point. It was very interesting, and best of luck to your son."
So CPLZ...
Again LUVBB, totally untrue. Your focus was so far from trying to understand it wasn't in the same area code. Using terms like "arrogant, hold up that big head, have fun carrying on the rampage", those are not geared towards understanding. You'd have to point out the insults I used, I don't remember them. I only remember having a strong opinion and no fear of expressing it.
Your effort was to be right, and you weren't.
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:there is no basis for reaching that conclusion ...quote:by cplz: #2 was an attempt to demonstrate that if that was the intention of the player/cadet, they could have continued in the minor leagues and avoided active duty service.
someone else could just as easily conclude their choice was begin active service or awol & the brig
Only true if they were cut, which they weren't. They were still rostered players and made a choice to leave pro baseball. They could have stayed pro if their intent was to "avoid living up to their commitment". The intent of #2 was to show that aversion wasn't their intent as they chose active duty.
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:
Bee, it has been suggested here that playing baseball is a way to "get out of their commitment".
No freakin way!
Comments came after JWeaver's post about special circmustances. Go back and reread.
IMO, from another thread, after following I got the impression the military was the bad guy, they should allow these cadets (for awhile at least) a chance to pursue their dream of playing pro ball. That was my impression.
The next thing ya know, we are told this is good recruiting and PR for the academies and postponing for baseball should be considered a special circumstance. I don't care if anyone wants to postpone anything, but don't convince me pro baseball is a good reason. That's the issue, IMO.
I also felt from CPLZ's remarks, either follow his way or thinking or head south, was not an appropriate comment that should come from active or former military personnel. The next thing you know the conversation turns around, we CAN make those comments and ask questions due to our military. Been so confusing.
Freakin Way,
No Way.
I'm sorry I can not join the Debate this morning,
My first night back at work, After a 2 week Vacation.
And I just don't feel up to it.
Can I take a Break today??
It's not that I'm not Committed to the Fight.
It's just I have Special need's.
And I really don't want to Discuss it here.
EH
No Way.
I'm sorry I can not join the Debate this morning,
My first night back at work, After a 2 week Vacation.
And I just don't feel up to it.
Can I take a Break today??
It's not that I'm not Committed to the Fight.
It's just I have Special need's.
And I really don't want to Discuss it here.
EH
EH,
Are you citing special circumstances for no posting today?
If so, granted.
Are you citing special circumstances for no posting today?
If so, granted.
Yes, CPLZ's posts can be very confusing:
He'll "defend to the death" our right to "pretend to stand up for those already in service to their country if you have never served.". I take it that means we can have an opinion; it's just wrong, de facto, if we don't agree with him.
He insults me with "You claimed to know alot about baseball, yet you've never heard of this policy. It's been in place 6 years now, so I guess you must not be as informed as you purport here." Not knowing about Academy policy prior to this discussion means I'm not informed about baseball?? Blast. If I explain the Balk Rule, can I have my baseball creds back?
No, you didn't call luvbb a name; nor did she say you did. But sometimes people take offense at being told to "go to hell". Hey, ClevelandDad, why didn't that make your 'cheap shots' list?
I don't quite understand your 'nobility' at being able to take shots, considering that your posts, sir, turned a discussion about policy into personal attacks. (Don't trust your memory: reread).
And Bee's assessment on the active duty or awol question? Spot on, Bee.
He'll "defend to the death" our right to "pretend to stand up for those already in service to their country if you have never served.". I take it that means we can have an opinion; it's just wrong, de facto, if we don't agree with him.
He insults me with "You claimed to know alot about baseball, yet you've never heard of this policy. It's been in place 6 years now, so I guess you must not be as informed as you purport here." Not knowing about Academy policy prior to this discussion means I'm not informed about baseball?? Blast. If I explain the Balk Rule, can I have my baseball creds back?
No, you didn't call luvbb a name; nor did she say you did. But sometimes people take offense at being told to "go to hell". Hey, ClevelandDad, why didn't that make your 'cheap shots' list?
I don't quite understand your 'nobility' at being able to take shots, considering that your posts, sir, turned a discussion about policy into personal attacks. (Don't trust your memory: reread).
And Bee's assessment on the active duty or awol question? Spot on, Bee.
ok, you are correct they DID choosequote:by cplz: The intent of #2 was to show that aversion wasn't their intent as they chose active duty.
again, you may have a basis for the conclusion you reached, but have NOT shared that info here so others would have difficulty reaching the same conclusion
and since no facts have been offered otherwise, a reasonable assumption could be that after their 1rst pro season on extended leave, their choices were -
a) report for active duty on xx date
b) DO NOT report for active duty on xx date, be AWOL and subject to military policy for your actions
if ya have some inside info, I'm all ears
I'm not claiming expertise in these matters, just observing the info provided and thinkin' it out ..
tho my son was contacted by both Army and Air Force with recruiting interest & we asked a ton of questions during that time about this issue
quote:Hey, ClevelandDad, why didn't that make your 'cheap shots' list?
That is a fair question. IMHO, there have been some hostilities (cheap shots if you will) in this thread between members but there has only been one "cheap shot" directed (perhaps implied) at another member's kid. When have inuendos like that ever been fair game on the hsbbweb?
The best I can tell by re-reading the posts in this thread is there has been only one member who has taken it beyond the policy discussion and indicated that not only do they disagree with the policy but they also perhaps find it less than honorable for a cadet to take advantage of such policy.
If someone believes cadets who join the military under the "proviso" that they might someday pursue a baseball career is somehow less than the right thing to do, then please come out and say it explicitly. Otherwise, please point out how previous comments have been misinterpreted. Are we talking about policy here or are we also casting aspersions on those who abide by it.
CLPZ and EH have tried to justify the policy. After reading all the arguments here on both sides, I am not sure I am smart enough to do that.
there-in lies the problem ...quote:by CD: If someone believes cadets who join the military under the "proviso" that they might someday pursue a baseball career is somehow less than the right thing to do, then please come out and say it explicitly
if someone could kindly post that "proviso" verbatum, things would be crystal clear -
or is is one of those "classified" things that we can see ... but then ya have to kill us??
in our recruiting converstions with the academies the details of "pro baseball options" were veerry vague - intentionaly or un-intentionaly -
and we NEVER saw anything in print .. maybe things have changed
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:if someone could kindly post that "proviso" verbatum, things would be crystal clearquote:by CD: If someone believes cadets who join the military under the "proviso" that they might someday pursue a baseball career is somehow less than the right thing to do, then please come out and say it explicitly
in our recruiting converstions with the academies the details of "pro baseball options" were veerry vague - intentionaly or un-intentionaly -
and we NEVER saw anything in print .. maybe things have changed
1) Did they in fact say no Bee>? All they have to do to end this controversy is say "no pro option" during the recruiting phase.
IMHO, they (e.g., air force) are vague because they want things both ways as well. An athlete who is on the edge about this issue it allows them to compete with all the other D1's out there by being purposefully vague.
Here is your proof that such a policy and resultant promises do in fact exist:
Why would the Phillies (or any other pro team) blow a draft choice on a player if they did not think in fact the military was willing to work with them on this issue? Because they are stupid and they like to burn draft choices for no reason? I think not.
the "proviso" (that's such a cool wordquote:by CD: Here is your proof that such a policy and resultant promises do in fact exist:
Why would the Phillies (or any other pro team) blow a draft choice on a player if they did not think in fact the military was willing to work with them on this issue? Because they are stupid and they like to burn draft choices for no reason? I think not.
again, we could be certain and understand it clearly if we saw it
is it inked on the back of a cocktail napkin or something??
but to suggest that it MUST BE SO because a player was drafted is a bit far-fetched
the players in question QUIT pro ball after 1-ONE-UNO short season
was the MLB team stupid? I guess that can be debated
were those "burned draft picks"? ABSOLUTLY .. no debate there,
team got 12 weeks (or less) of pro ball out of their draft pick(s)
they coulda filled those roster spots for that season w/undrafted free agents,
signed for a cheesburger & bus ticket (figuratively speaking
)be curious to know if the scout who drafted/signed those guys is still with that team?
quote:in our recruiting converstions with the academies the details of "pro baseball options" were veerry vague - intentionaly or un-intentionaly -
and we NEVER saw anything in print .. maybe things have changed
In our dealings with one academy in particular, when asked point blank about "going pro" we were told "We do not encourage it. If your goal is to play pro ball...you should perhaps re-think attending a military academy. You do not go to 'name of academy' with the ultimate goal to play pro ball." I will say that we are not talking West Point here. And I also will say I appreciated the point blank statement on their part and felt it was upfront and honorable to be so candid. I guess it was a wrong assumption to think that all the academies operated the same way. This was 5 years ago....have things changed that significantly?
quote:Why would the Phillies (or any other pro team) blow a draft choice on a player if they did not think in fact the military was willing to work with them on this issue? Because they are stupid and they like to burn draft choices for no reason? I think not.
I don't know Dan....being a life-long Phillies fan...I have seen my fair share of burned draft choices!
All teams burn draft choices.
IMO.I don't think it is done on purpose. It's up to the drafting scout to make sure he has all information to present to the team. The biggest consideration, this player will sign when drafted. I wouldhope that when presented an opportunity, all players (mine included) make their postiions clear as to their intentions. If any player is told that he would be able to postpone duty and go for it, then so be it, and I would agree the fault lies on mixed signals given from the Academies.
That's where asking about policy comes into the picture.
A large part of the draft is about signability, not always talent. You will understand that someday soon.
Let's not make this a drafting issue.
IMO.I don't think it is done on purpose. It's up to the drafting scout to make sure he has all information to present to the team. The biggest consideration, this player will sign when drafted. I wouldhope that when presented an opportunity, all players (mine included) make their postiions clear as to their intentions. If any player is told that he would be able to postpone duty and go for it, then so be it, and I would agree the fault lies on mixed signals given from the Academies.
That's where asking about policy comes into the picture.
A large part of the draft is about signability, not always talent. You will understand that someday soon.
Let's not make this a drafting issue.
quote:tpm quote:
A large part of the draft is about signability, not always talent
IMO, the draft is about talent, what round you are drafted in is where signability may be a factor. Very, very seldom is an eligible player who has "pro tools" overlooked because he is unsignable. If you have those tools, someone will take a gamble in the late rounds just in case there is a change in a players direction.
ClevelandDad, please turn down your sensitivity receptor. I did a little surfing about drafted cadets; be they ball players or b-ball players, the reports seem to be talking about the potential to play for an allotted period of time, and then go on a recruiting assignment. Not specific to a poster's son --- it was the case with all the drafted cadets (MLB & NBA) I found reference to.
Perhaps it was the Podunk remark that offended you, in which case that would be a reference to all minor league sons here. I'd apologize, but those boys can recognize Podunk when they see it!
Perhaps it was the Podunk remark that offended you, in which case that would be a reference to all minor league sons here. I'd apologize, but those boys can recognize Podunk when they see it!
luvbb, let's see what I can do again
I've never heard of somebody going to an Academy whose ultimate goal was to be drafted for baseball. I'll agree- they'd love to do it and they're not going to just give it up just because they are going to a Service Academy. Wrong or right? Depends on the person. Everybody has an opinion. I personally believe it is important for the Academies to be vague otherwise they would not get even DI-quality athletes. Instead, they would probably end up with medicore players. Therefore they would probably have to compete at a lower level than DI. (Not trying to be offensive to any athletes.. college athletes are college athletes to me) Again, right or wrong? Depends on the person.
There are dual reasons for athletics at a service academy. First, there are the publicity and recruitment aspect. The TV, the big games, etc. How about when the team is doing well and make an appearance in the NCAA Regionals?
The second reason I believe the General Douglas Macarthur sums up very well.On the fields of friendly strife are sown the seeds that on other days and other fields will bear the fruits of victory.
I believe it is wrong for an applicant to a Service Academy to go there with full intentions of playing baseball afterwards. I do, on the other hand, believe though that the opportunity should be allowed if it were to come up. West Point and the Army currently allow that. Navy and Air Force do not.
Luvbb, I haven't gotten to go digging yet for overseas assignments.. I'll try doing that this afternoon
I've never heard of somebody going to an Academy whose ultimate goal was to be drafted for baseball. I'll agree- they'd love to do it and they're not going to just give it up just because they are going to a Service Academy. Wrong or right? Depends on the person. Everybody has an opinion. I personally believe it is important for the Academies to be vague otherwise they would not get even DI-quality athletes. Instead, they would probably end up with medicore players. Therefore they would probably have to compete at a lower level than DI. (Not trying to be offensive to any athletes.. college athletes are college athletes to me) Again, right or wrong? Depends on the person.
There are dual reasons for athletics at a service academy. First, there are the publicity and recruitment aspect. The TV, the big games, etc. How about when the team is doing well and make an appearance in the NCAA Regionals?
The second reason I believe the General Douglas Macarthur sums up very well.On the fields of friendly strife are sown the seeds that on other days and other fields will bear the fruits of victory.
I believe it is wrong for an applicant to a Service Academy to go there with full intentions of playing baseball afterwards. I do, on the other hand, believe though that the opportunity should be allowed if it were to come up. West Point and the Army currently allow that. Navy and Air Force do not.
Luvbb, I haven't gotten to go digging yet for overseas assignments.. I'll try doing that this afternoon
The Air Force Academy decided to recruit this young man!
The Armed Forces decided to allow him to participate in a professional sport without forgiving his future obligation.
The young man has done everything he was told to do and it appears he is prepared to do whatever his country tells him to do.
His father is one of us.
I can’t even imagine why we are questioning what happened. I wonder how far we would allow this type of questioning on here, if it were a different situation regarding another person/player.
I understand why some might feel the need to question the system or policy, but why not give the son of a “high school Webster” a break and pull for his son just like all the other son’s who are playing baseball. There is no set schedule for giving the ultimate for your country. He has to serve because he made the commitment. Near as I can tell he is more than willing to live up to that commitment. We should be honoring him for taking on this obligation to his country rather than trying to find some fault that simply doesn’t exist. Why not just be happy that he is getting this opportunity.
Blame Major League Baseball, blame the Armed Forces, blame the Air Force Academy, blame us because we promoted this kid to all 30 MLB clubs, blame the war, blame anything, but don’t blame this young man. He has done nothing wrong!
The Armed Forces decided to allow him to participate in a professional sport without forgiving his future obligation.
The young man has done everything he was told to do and it appears he is prepared to do whatever his country tells him to do.
His father is one of us.
I can’t even imagine why we are questioning what happened. I wonder how far we would allow this type of questioning on here, if it were a different situation regarding another person/player.
I understand why some might feel the need to question the system or policy, but why not give the son of a “high school Webster” a break and pull for his son just like all the other son’s who are playing baseball. There is no set schedule for giving the ultimate for your country. He has to serve because he made the commitment. Near as I can tell he is more than willing to live up to that commitment. We should be honoring him for taking on this obligation to his country rather than trying to find some fault that simply doesn’t exist. Why not just be happy that he is getting this opportunity.
Blame Major League Baseball, blame the Armed Forces, blame the Air Force Academy, blame us because we promoted this kid to all 30 MLB clubs, blame the war, blame anything, but don’t blame this young man. He has done nothing wrong!
quote:Luvbb, I haven't gotten to go digging yet for overseas assignments.. I'll try doing that this afternoon
Bulldog...hope you had a good day of classes!
I'm sure you have enough to do without digging up info for us here. I can do it myself! Thanks tho.quote:But again, I wouldn't publicly question others who took advantage of an available "proviso"...but I WOULD publicly question the policy that makes such a proviso available.
Point taken. Why don't you question it where it might do some good? No one here has any authority to change it.
For what its worth, my son was sought after by the USAF (being less than an hour away) and back then going pro wasn't much of an option out of the USAF so he passed.
Good post PG!
IMO this topic has run its course.
quote:Point taken. Why don't you question it where it might do some good? No one here has any authority to change it.
I'm sorry Frank...I was answering CD's question.
"IMO this topic has run its course."
Point taken..and I agree.
PG, with respect, we have been trying to discuss the policy of some of the Academies without making it personal. There are a number of cadets drafted for different pro sports. This isn't about any one cadet/officer/player/draftee. Actually, a USMA (rather than a USAFA) father has been quite active in the discussion.
Perhaps if you had read some of the thread before you came out swinging....
Perhaps if you had read some of the thread before you came out swinging....
I agree with Frank's point.
PG,
I know some may feel the player has been slighted, but not sure where anyone blamed him.
PG,
I know some may feel the player has been slighted, but not sure where anyone blamed him.
If there are more questions about these current topics, I would like to recommend that those interested, ask a currently deployed service member what their opinion is.
They are not talking about these issues.
They are not arguing about these issues.
They are living them.
They are not talking about these issues.
They are not arguing about these issues.
They are living them.
agree, kudos to our webster player & his familyquote:by PG: I understand why some might feel the need to question the system or policy, but why not give the son of a “high school Webster” a break and pull for his son
and tho some comments are hard to deceipher, as far as I can tell the past 5 pages or so have been about other players in general, academy "ex-pro-players" specificly, and an elusive policy/promise/proviso (gee, that's such a neat word
)it has been pretty interesting and probably of value for parents of players considering the academy route in the future.
from all indications the "proviso/promise" is similar in form to what many DI coaches offer some top prospects ... that promise, is somewhat vague & NEVER in writing - and the coach and player can have very different understandings of what it means
tho no awol possibilites exist in ncaa
Orlando,
It wasn’t my intent to come out swinging, I’ve found that to be a good way to get knocked on my azz!
However, I can guarantee anyone here, that this thread hit very close to home for one of our “friends” here.
You are correct, I should have read every word in this thread before posting anything. I hardly ever pay attention to who’s posting what. That way you don’t get caught up in choosing any sides.
It’s just that I “thought” I read some words regarding commitment to the military vs being able to pursue other things. Whether that was meant as an overall viewpoint or not, I bet it hit some on here a lot harder than others. Sometimes the blame can be directed to a single person, but it really can seem very personal if you fit in the same picture.
Maybe a certain player wasn't mentioned or blamed. But his situation here is fairly well known. Maybe I will go back and read this thread a bit closer. Sorry if I said anything wrong in that previous post.
It wasn’t my intent to come out swinging, I’ve found that to be a good way to get knocked on my azz!
However, I can guarantee anyone here, that this thread hit very close to home for one of our “friends” here.
You are correct, I should have read every word in this thread before posting anything. I hardly ever pay attention to who’s posting what. That way you don’t get caught up in choosing any sides.
It’s just that I “thought” I read some words regarding commitment to the military vs being able to pursue other things. Whether that was meant as an overall viewpoint or not, I bet it hit some on here a lot harder than others. Sometimes the blame can be directed to a single person, but it really can seem very personal if you fit in the same picture.
Maybe a certain player wasn't mentioned or blamed. But his situation here is fairly well known. Maybe I will go back and read this thread a bit closer. Sorry if I said anything wrong in that previous post.
.
PG,
Spot on in your original post.
Read the first page of the thread...The thread began exactly there.
44.
.
PG,
Spot on in your original post.
Read the first page of the thread...The thread began exactly there.
44.
.
your input is always appreciated PG & maybe you can help me out w/the database in your head ..
the aspect of academy "pro players" I'm trying to understand is
1) are they offered the pro option on a short leash, then "pressured" into active duty?
if NO - - there should be academy players scattered thru-out MiLB/MLB(?) in similar numbers to those of other Patriot League (& similar type) schools
if NO - - it seems odd that the "ex-players" cplz spoke of would, attract pro interest, sign pro contracts, play 12 weeks, then choose active duty & leave pro baseball
the aspect of academy "pro players" I'm trying to understand is
1) are they offered the pro option on a short leash, then "pressured" into active duty?
if NO - - there should be academy players scattered thru-out MiLB/MLB(?) in similar numbers to those of other Patriot League (& similar type) schools
if NO - - it seems odd that the "ex-players" cplz spoke of would, attract pro interest, sign pro contracts, play 12 weeks, then choose active duty & leave pro baseball
Bee,
Thanks, I appreciate reading your posts too.
I really know very little about all this stuff. I’m not very smart and operate off of common sense and this involves the government! So I can't help you out with that question.
I do like some of the Academy coaches I've met. And I surely have utmost respect for any kid who goes that route. And I'm really happy for those who have a chance to live their baseball dream. And I think all those fighting for our country are truly the real heroes. No matter what time of the year they actually serve.
Thanks, I appreciate reading your posts too.
I really know very little about all this stuff. I’m not very smart and operate off of common sense and this involves the government! So I can't help you out with that question.
I do like some of the Academy coaches I've met. And I surely have utmost respect for any kid who goes that route. And I'm really happy for those who have a chance to live their baseball dream. And I think all those fighting for our country are truly the real heroes. No matter what time of the year they actually serve.
What would this group have to say if the player was asked to play in an independent pro league. Would the services allow that? Or, does it have to have the MLB stamp of approval. The Indep Leeague also have "realizing a dream" potential. My only thought here is that any cadet coming out of 4 years of premium service education could find a place in the civilian world where he could play both roles.
I am not passing judgment on Lt Bolt, the Bolt family, or taking sides. I do understand the arguments, am torn if I was in the same shoes, and am only saying that baseball is not the only career in the civilian world where a graduating Service officer could where 2 hats, and be an asset to civilian society. But, for some reason professional athletics takes an upper hand when rules are made.
Lets take a hypothetical situation. Lt Joe Blow graduates from the Academy. A plus personality, big time potential youth leader, and he is recruited to lead large city urban youth organization. Lt Smith sees this as his life long dream position where he can make a difference. What will the Service have to say about this opportunity and his commitment to the armed forces.
Ignorance on my part asks is if everyone has the opportunity to "buy out".
I am not passing judgment on Lt Bolt, the Bolt family, or taking sides. I do understand the arguments, am torn if I was in the same shoes, and am only saying that baseball is not the only career in the civilian world where a graduating Service officer could where 2 hats, and be an asset to civilian society. But, for some reason professional athletics takes an upper hand when rules are made.
Lets take a hypothetical situation. Lt Joe Blow graduates from the Academy. A plus personality, big time potential youth leader, and he is recruited to lead large city urban youth organization. Lt Smith sees this as his life long dream position where he can make a difference. What will the Service have to say about this opportunity and his commitment to the armed forces.
Ignorance on my part asks is if everyone has the opportunity to "buy out".
Well I've read some more and I'll be darned if I don't see a certain name mentioned a lot in this thread. Maybe not in a real bad way, but mentioned with what is perceived to be a somewhat dishonorable type thing.
rz1 posted
I don't think rz meant that as a blow to one individual and was just repeating what some might read as the hidden message here. But what would that one individual and his family feel? Karl Bolt has not been a part of any "buy out"! He is honorably serving his country or at least will be shortly. I'm not sure how the other similiar cases have been worked out.
I can't help but see this as we all know, there are much more important things in life than baseball. For most all of us, fighting for our country is one of those more important things. Even more important to most is the health and happiness of their family. But all seem very important at the time.
rz1 posted
quote:Ignorance on my part asks is if everyone has the opportunity to "buy out".
I don't think rz meant that as a blow to one individual and was just repeating what some might read as the hidden message here. But what would that one individual and his family feel? Karl Bolt has not been a part of any "buy out"! He is honorably serving his country or at least will be shortly. I'm not sure how the other similiar cases have been worked out.
I can't help but see this as we all know, there are much more important things in life than baseball. For most all of us, fighting for our country is one of those more important things. Even more important to most is the health and happiness of their family. But all seem very important at the time.
quote:Ignorance on my part asks is if everyone has the opportunity to "buy out".
PG...the "buy out" was not brought up in reference to the situation you are talking about. Another poster brought it up as an option at West Point. And "buy out" may not be the appropriate terminology. RZ....I asked the same question and as far as I could understand...it was only for athletes...altho I readily admit I could have misunderstood because things got heated. This was in no way referenced to the Air Force Academy...but another option that was presented from a different academy.
No one ever said Officer Bolt was trying to "buy out" his commitment or that it was even an option at the Air Force Academy.
pg: "buy out" was a bad phrase on my part and I hope that was not assumed by any other service family as that was not my intent.
That was my real question and I ask why only athletes as many others may fall into that category?
quote:luvbb quote:
I asked the same question and as far as I could understand...it was only for athletes
That was my real question and I ask why only athletes as many others may fall into that category?
quote:Lets take a hypothetical situation. Lt Joe Blow graduates from the Academy. A plus personality, big time potential youth leader, and he is recruited to lead large city urban youth organization. Lt Smith sees this as his life long dream position where he can make a difference. What will the Service have to say about this opportunity and his commitment to the armed forces.
Ignorance on my part asks is if everyone has the opportunity to "buy out".
Not being a smart alek, but this theme has been worked over earlier in the thread with the singer analogy. I ask those coming in late to the topic to please go back and read the thread because there are many complex issues raised by it.
To answer your question, if hypothetical urban Joe were promised an alternate career path to join the Academy over all the other colleges out there who are competing with said Academy for the respective urban youth organization candidate, then shame on them if they don't live up to their end of things - regardless of how vague they are. If they are not telling urban Joe it is disallowed up front then it impliedly is allowed and we are stuck with the issues raised here in this thread. Apparently the Phillies thought it was allowed.
Interesting you were able to determine we were talking about Lt. Bolt. Some who are lecturing others to "turn down their sensitivity receptors" or to "refrain from swinging" seem obtuse to this fact. I hope their kids are not subjected someday to the indiginities they have bestowed on other's kids in this thread. Just so we are clear on what we are talking about, here is the offensive/insensitive remark imho:
quote:My posts have been in support of those who have elected to serve in the military, both as commissioned officers out of the Academies and in the ranks. People who committed without the personal reserve clause of ‘as long as I don’t get the opportunity to play professional sports instead.”
Someone please explain how that does not reflect badly (impliedly albeit) on Lt. Bolt and then maybe we can turn down the sensitivity receptors.
quote:but this theme has been worked over earlier in the thread with the singer analogy. I ask those coming in late to the topic to please go back and read the thread because there are many complex issues raised by it.
I should be spanked
and sent to my room
I may just be a little ol' shortstawpmom from Kansas, but I for one am getting upset about a current posters son's name continuing to be brought up in this forum. Regardless if its never been the intention of others to put him in a negative light or not.
I have wondered as to why this thread has not been locked yet and then it dawned on me that alot of the conversation going on here is going on by many of the moderators themselves.
I am going to be honest here and go out on a limb. Please know that I say this with a heavy heart.
This is starting to sound like a bunch of upset baseball parents complaining about the system. For many and for most, you are operating on very little true knowledge about how the Armed Services work.
There are chains of command. The chains of command are in charge of our nations armed services and they make the decisions. You can balk about the policies all you want, but you really have no say and are in no position to change things. You may not agree with the Armed Forces policies and because you live in a free country, please feel free to take your complaints up with our fellow politicians.
This is a basebal site.
If parents of future Academy athletes have questions,...I would tell them to ask the chain of command about the policies in place. I guarantee commanders have volumnes and volumnes of regulations and standards that will gladly recite to them. These policies are not made up as they go. There is a military judicial system in place and there are boards set aside to handle specific issues.
Its always very easy to assume, to complain, to be upset, and to doubt when one has not TRUELY been a part of a system.
I will probably be steam rolled over, but can we please leave politics off of this baseball site?
The soldiers are not complaining. Why is everyone else?
Please have confidence in our military leaders. I send my husband, my 19 year old son, and many friends out to war under these commanders. I trust them to make a solid decision in the best interest of America whether or not Academy students should or should not be allowed to persue a professional athletic career. Decisions are based on needs of the military, and who would know better about those needs, than the commanders & soldiers themselves?
Lets end this, and get back to baseball. Whatta ya say?
I have wondered as to why this thread has not been locked yet and then it dawned on me that alot of the conversation going on here is going on by many of the moderators themselves.
I am going to be honest here and go out on a limb. Please know that I say this with a heavy heart.
This is starting to sound like a bunch of upset baseball parents complaining about the system. For many and for most, you are operating on very little true knowledge about how the Armed Services work.
There are chains of command. The chains of command are in charge of our nations armed services and they make the decisions. You can balk about the policies all you want, but you really have no say and are in no position to change things. You may not agree with the Armed Forces policies and because you live in a free country, please feel free to take your complaints up with our fellow politicians.
This is a basebal site.
If parents of future Academy athletes have questions,...I would tell them to ask the chain of command about the policies in place. I guarantee commanders have volumnes and volumnes of regulations and standards that will gladly recite to them. These policies are not made up as they go. There is a military judicial system in place and there are boards set aside to handle specific issues.
Its always very easy to assume, to complain, to be upset, and to doubt when one has not TRUELY been a part of a system.
I will probably be steam rolled over, but can we please leave politics off of this baseball site?
The soldiers are not complaining. Why is everyone else?
Please have confidence in our military leaders. I send my husband, my 19 year old son, and many friends out to war under these commanders. I trust them to make a solid decision in the best interest of America whether or not Academy students should or should not be allowed to persue a professional athletic career. Decisions are based on needs of the military, and who would know better about those needs, than the commanders & soldiers themselves?
Lets end this, and get back to baseball. Whatta ya say?
quote:I should be spanked and sent to my room
Oh RZ...now you too can join the club of having been told off!
You can join me in the corner if you would like! Seriously PG...the first page of this thread did pertain to what you referred to as the original post was directed as his situation...but it QUICKLY veered off into bigger issues and I'll have to go back and check, but I don't even think his name has been mentioned much past the first page or two. Now, that doesn't mean that personal feelings of those directly involved in that situation haven't been hurt just because a particular name isn't mentioned. After going back and re-reading..I'm sure they have, and for that I apologize because that was not the intent. And I can also say that some words and ideas were being attributed to some posters that were not their intent either, and things quickly escalated when those assertions were made. But I think we quickly veered from the Air Force Academy to West Point and the issues involved at that Academy when it comes to athletes....which apparently do not happen at the Air Force Academy. But I admit, the overall ideas and policies probably overlap and I can understand the sensitivity. I do not think ANY of us underestimate the contribution of our armed forces personnel or question their dedication and commitment. The intent was to discuss and question bigger issues, but as we have all seen...and what SSMom has pointed out....that appears to be a futile attempt.
RZ...are you done crying yet?
quote:Originally posted by J.Weaver #5:
I'd say being drafted counts as a special circumstance.
This was the second post in the topic. I did not agree with it, being drafted is not a special circumstance for anything.
It was this post that sparked the flame.
EH was the first to bring up the name of the player.
Luvbb responded to a statment by EH that playing baseball could do more for morale and honor than being an officer. I think that is where things began to unfold.
CD posted something about implied indignations, even after someone apologized about passing judgements.
Questions were asked about policy, with unclear explanation by an ex military dad that became frustrationg by many, we were told either to stand by these players or go to h*ll.
Bulldog probably answered any questions asked pretty easily for some to understand. Pretty sharp for a "kid" first week at school.
Now I read the thread and it is coming back full circle. Now people asking the same questions that were brought up pages back, that some were chastised for brining up.
PG makes a statment about some things being more important in life than baseball. For many of us,
This was the whole idea from the beginning.
I am now going to make a bold statement which most likely will be taken the wrong way, but in defense of those that do have some questions about this and have been chastised for posting, this bother me. And sometimes like many of us, I often speak without
thought, but I thought about this.
My son was drafted this year and so were a lot of our kids. I know how that players dad and folks must have felt, it was posted quite a while back regarding experiences (one of the reasons I started minor league reporting thread) and continued the discussion in General Items. Now there is nothing wrong with that, but IMO, if it were my son, considering the circumstances, I would not have posted links to any article regarding the situation because of the sensitve nature and the circumstances. I would have just told about the great experience he was having, that would be it, no one really needed to know what was happening behind the scenes. Those that inquired could have been repsonded to in a private pm. Once that was done, there were some people, who really didn't feel comfortable but stayed out of the discussion. I think that does, despite what some may think, show respect we give to our parents and their players. Some of you most likely say, why is she opening her mouth, but that is how I see it, and I do apologize for hurting anyone's feelings, this is not meant to be mean, but just an example of how things on a messageboard can get out of control. Even when teh original post was in another thread. We all, everyone, need to think twice when we post, post anything (as I most likely should now). I admit I really goof up on that often.
Orlando did offer an opportunity to let others know details were posted on another thread, but then the baseball being special circumstances came up and the rest is history. No one ever called the young man dishonorable. If that was implied, it was not done on purpose. And I think that implying that it was implied only got others a bit more upset.
I have heard from 3 people that when being recruited by the service academies, baseball after graduation was not much of an option. I think that this is a very good discussion for those that have encountered the situation. If pro baseball career is what you seek, then maybe this is not the right path.
No one stated anything about the player not fulfilling commitments, we all understand it was being postponed. That was also brought up in another topic.
CD has made a great point, if joining the thread, go back and read carefully from the beginning.
There is no reason this post should be locked up. This is about baseball. If someone feels uncomfortable, don't read it.
I do agree with ssm, we all know that the military is known for all teh red tape, but that was NOT what sparked teh discussion.
Baseball being more important than other things was.
JMO.
quote:tpm quote:
CD has made a great point, if joining the thread, go back and read carefully from the beginning.
Being chastised twice on the same page. TPM believe or not, I can read. Now I have to feel bad all over again.
quote:Originally posted by rz1:quote:tpm quote:
CD has made a great point, if joining the thread, go back and read carefully from the beginning.
Being chastised twice on the same page. TPM believe or not, I can read. Now I have to feel bad all over again.
I didn't mean to direct it at you, I know you already were sent to corner, it was for the next guy.
it's basic - - why not quit dancin' & cut the periphrial BS ..
exactly how is that mysterious "proviso" worded?? ... IF IT IS "classified TOP SECRET" ..
PM it to Frank Martin, he can post it ...
then suffer the (dire) consequences ("if we tell ya we have to kill ya")
for the "greater good" of HSBBWEB
thanks
exactly how is that mysterious "proviso" worded?? ... IF IT IS "classified TOP SECRET" ..
PM it to Frank Martin, he can post it ...
then suffer the (dire) consequences ("if we tell ya we have to kill ya")
for the "greater good" of HSBBWEB
thanks
SSm,
That was a great post.
I agree with you 100%. It's hard to judge when you are truely not a part of system.
My reason for stating that baseball should not be a special circumstance. Unless anyone has been in that system, they might not understnad.
Works both ways. I respect your opinion and what you have said.
That was a great post.
I agree with you 100%. It's hard to judge when you are truely not a part of system.
My reason for stating that baseball should not be a special circumstance. Unless anyone has been in that system, they might not understnad.
Works both ways. I respect your opinion and what you have said.
Bee>,
I'm picturing you talking in your sleep tonight mumbling the words: "Proviso, Proviso,
Proviso...cool word
" LOL...better warn the wife!
I'm picturing you talking in your sleep tonight mumbling the words: "Proviso, Proviso,
Proviso...cool word
" LOL...better warn the wife! I'll prolly fall asleep (on "home run" porch) listening to shortwave counting Army/USAF mascotsquote:Bee>, I'm picturing you talking in your sleep tonight mumbling the words: "Proviso, Proviso,
only to be awakened by Andy's husky pup jumping me & licking my face ever few hours
quote:Originally posted by rz1:quote:but this theme has been worked over earlier in the thread with the singer analogy. I ask those coming in late to the topic to please go back and read the thread because there are many complex issues raised by it.
I should be spanked
Randy - sorry for making you feel like that - I did not mean to be rude. I apologize with the proviso that this thread although contentious at times has been one of the more interesting ones we have had here in quite some time.
CD - w/all due respect ... -"proviso"- is NOT available to just use in any ol' context
thanx in adavance for your co-operation
nite-nite ..
thanx in adavance for your co-operation
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:
CD - w/all due respect ... -"proviso"- is NOT available to just use in any ol' context
thanx in adavance for your co-operation
Bee> - I used it out of context on purpose to signal that maybe the thread is cooling down a bit now
I will heed your warnings however
Awwww,....Group Huuuuuuug!!!!
( or if you prefer, a solid handshake will do!)
Pass the nachos over this way would ya?
Chocolate milkshakes for all!!!
Glad we got through that.
( or if you prefer, a solid handshake will do!)
Pass the nachos over this way would ya?
Chocolate milkshakes for all!!!
Glad we got through that.
oops ... in retrospect it's OBVIOUS & I should'a recognized your intent ... never mindquote:by CD: Bee> - I used it out of context on purpose to signal that maybe the thread is cooling down a bit now
PROVISIMO!
Bee,
Please don't letA Frank Martin get into this one.
Bee,
Please don't let
quote:Randy - sorry for making you feel like that - I did not mean to be rude. I apologize with the proviso that this thread although contentious at times has been one of the more interesting ones we have had here in quite some time.
Oh CD..come on and admit it...you secretly WISH this thread were in the OH/KY/PA/WV forum so that our number of posts would close in on the Illinois Forum without help from American Idol chatter!
luvbb,
I can move it.
I can move it.
Seriously,..if it werent for all the kids on this site,..I'd say we need to all head out for a beer.
quote:Originally posted by luvbb:quote:Randy - sorry for making you feel like that - I did not mean to be rude. I apologize with the proviso that this thread although contentious at times has been one of the more interesting ones we have had here in quite some time.
Oh CD..come on and admit it...you secretly WISH this thread were in the OH/KY/PA/WV forum so that our number of posts would close in on the Illinois Forum without help from American Idol chatter!
You know me all too well luvbb
wundering 
... might this hit 11 pages?? (edited)
quote:wundering ... might this hit 10 pages??
Sure...ya wanna banter about rotational vs. linear now?
quote:Sure...ya wanna banter about rotational vs. linear now?
Bring it!
quote:Bring it!
I'm thinking SSM dropped the milkshakes and moved on to the beer without us! LOL
"Sure...ya wanna banter about rotational red wine vs. linear white wine now??"
how 'bout later??
how 'bout later??
quote:quote:
Randy - sorry for making you feel like that - I did not mean to be rude. I apologize with the proviso that this thread although contentious at times has been one of the more interesting ones we have had here in quite some time.
Not to worry Dan, I just wanted to go to the corner to visit, and bring food/drink to my friend luvbb who has been in/out of "time-outs" during this thread.
quote:Not to worry Dan, I just wanted to go to the corner to visit, and bring food/drink to my friend luvbb
Geez RZ...if you REALLY cared, the least you could have done was bring some of Bee>'s "rotational red" with ya!
( chuckle,...chuckle!)
Hey, ( slurp slurp,..ohhh ouch,..brain freeze!!), ummmmm maybe we could move this convo into the chatroom. Coach May is there and says if we dont join him, he's gonna talk smack about us!
Hey, ( slurp slurp,..ohhh ouch,..brain freeze!!), ummmmm maybe we could move this convo into the chatroom. Coach May is there and says if we dont join him, he's gonna talk smack about us!
quote:Geez RZ...if you REALLY cared, the least you could have done was bring some of Bee>'s "rotational red" with ya!
Sorry, this WI boy brings brats, cheese, and beer during visiting hours.
quote:Sorry, this WI boy brings brats, cheese, and beer during visiting hours.
Oh RZ....you clearly don't know me...I can "slum" it with the best of them! Bring on the brats and beer
("slum" meant only in the BEST way! )
Do you all think you are in the OHIO/KY/PA/WV thread?
quote:Originally posted by rz1:
What would this group have to say if the player was asked to play in an independent pro league. Would the services allow that? Or, does it have to have the MLB stamp of approval. The Indep Leeague also have "realizing a dream" potential. My only thought here is that any cadet coming out of 4 years of premium service education could find a place in the civilian world where he could play both roles.
I am not passing judgment on Lt Bolt, the Bolt family, or taking sides. I do understand the arguments, am torn if I was in the same shoes, and am only saying that baseball is not the only career in the civilian world where a graduating Service officer could where 2 hats, and be an asset to civilian society. But, for some reason professional athletics takes an upper hand when rules are made.
Lets take a hypothetical situation. Lt Joe Blow graduates from the Academy. A plus personality, big time potential youth leader, and he is recruited to lead large city urban youth organization. Lt Smith sees this as his life long dream position where he can make a difference. What will the Service have to say about this opportunity and his commitment to the armed forces.
Ignorance on my part asks is if everyone has the opportunity to "buy out".
RZ,
The answer is quite simple. Anyone can apply for a special circumstances leave or exit with a proviso...that it benefit the service branch. If such a person could show that his involvement in an endeavor would show the service branch in a positive light and gain notoriety for the branch, that request would be considered.
The "pro service option" that exists at West Point only, assumes this criteria and therefore does have a written policy regarding it. As to whether it would extend to an independant league, I plead ignorance.
The pro player is not on leave, but is active duty personnel and serves his first two off seasons on full time active duty. At any time during that period he may elect to leave baseball and rejoin traditional active duty for the remainder of his commitment.
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:
it's basic - - why not quit dancin' & cut the periphrial BS ..
exactly how is that mysterious "proviso" worded?? ... IF IT IS "classified TOP SECRET" ..
PM it to Frank Martin, he can post it ...
then suffer the (dire) consequences ("if we tell ya we have to kill ya")
for the "greater good" of HSBBWEB
thanks
Bee,
Do you have a question about the "pro service option" at West Point? I don't know it all, but I am fairly well versed in it and would be happy to try and explain its provisions.
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:quote:Originally posted by rz1:
What would this group have to say if the player was asked to play in an independent pro league. Would the services allow that? Or, does it have to have the MLB stamp of approval. The Indep Leeague also have "realizing a dream" potential. My only thought here is that any cadet coming out of 4 years of premium service education could find a place in the civilian world where he could play both roles.
I am not passing judgment on Lt Bolt, the Bolt family, or taking sides. I do understand the arguments, am torn if I was in the same shoes, and am only saying that baseball is not the only career in the civilian world where a graduating Service officer could where 2 hats, and be an asset to civilian society. But, for some reason professional athletics takes an upper hand when rules are made.
Lets take a hypothetical situation. Lt Joe Blow graduates from the Academy. A plus personality, big time potential youth leader, and he is recruited to lead large city urban youth organization. Lt Smith sees this as his life long dream position where he can make a difference. What will the Service have to say about this opportunity and his commitment to the armed forces.
Ignorance on my part asks is if everyone has the opportunity to "buy out".
RZ,
The answer is quite simple. Anyone can apply for a special circumstances leave or exit with a proviso...that it benefit the service branch. If such a person could show that his involvement in an endeavor would show the service branch in a positive light and gain notoriety for the branch, that request would be considered.
The "pro service option" that exists at West Point only, assumes this criteria and therefore does have a written policy regarding it. As to whether it would extend to an independant league, I plead ignorance.
The pro player is not on leave, but is active duty personnel and serves his first two off seasons on full time active duty. At any time during that period he may elect to leave baseball and rejoin traditional active duty for the remainder of his commitment.
Is this new information you
learned today? I don't remember this earlier.
quote:Originally posted by luvbb:quote:Randy - sorry for making you feel like that - I did not mean to be rude. I apologize with the proviso that this thread although contentious at times has been one of the more interesting ones we have had here in quite some time.
Oh CD..come on and admit it...you secretly WISH this thread were in the OH/KY/PA/WV forum so that our number of posts would close in on the Illinois Forum without help from American Idol chatter!
TPM,
Thanks for Throwing me under the bus.
TPM[quote].
It was EH who brought up
Lt Bolt first in his post.
Only kidding, hehe
You have to go back to the start of the thread
To understand what was written, and how it was interpreted,
And I might add manipulated and sentences taken out of context.
All for the sake of an arguement?
And yes it was a sensitive subject,
Maybe I'm to close to the matter.
To Me,
To question ones commitment.
Is to question ones Honor, Ones Character,
Ones Ethics, Ones Duty.
And you have know idea about whom you post about.
I might add KB is only the second player drafted in school history, since 1957.
EH
Thanks for Throwing me under the bus.
TPM[quote].
It was EH who brought up
Lt Bolt first in his post.
Only kidding, hehe
You have to go back to the start of the thread
To understand what was written, and how it was interpreted,
And I might add manipulated and sentences taken out of context.
All for the sake of an arguement?
And yes it was a sensitive subject,
Maybe I'm to close to the matter.
To Me,
To question ones commitment.
Is to question ones Honor, Ones Character,
Ones Ethics, Ones Duty.
And you have know idea about whom you post about.
I might add KB is only the second player drafted in school history, since 1957.
EH
quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:quote:Originally posted by rz1:
What would this group have to say if the player was asked to play in an independent pro league. Would the services allow that? Or, does it have to have the MLB stamp of approval. The Indep Leeague also have "realizing a dream" potential. My only thought here is that any cadet coming out of 4 years of premium service education could find a place in the civilian world where he could play both roles.
I am not passing judgment on Lt Bolt, the Bolt family, or taking sides. I do understand the arguments, am torn if I was in the same shoes, and am only saying that baseball is not the only career in the civilian world where a graduating Service officer could where 2 hats, and be an asset to civilian society. But, for some reason professional athletics takes an upper hand when rules are made.
Lets take a hypothetical situation. Lt Joe Blow graduates from the Academy. A plus personality, big time potential youth leader, and he is recruited to lead large city urban youth organization. Lt Smith sees this as his life long dream position where he can make a difference. What will the Service have to say about this opportunity and his commitment to the armed forces.
Ignorance on my part asks is if everyone has the opportunity to "buy out".
RZ,
The answer is quite simple. Anyone can apply for a special circumstances leave or exit with a proviso...that it benefit the service branch. If such a person could show that his involvement in an endeavor would show the service branch in a positive light and gain notoriety for the branch, that request would be considered.
The "pro service option" that exists at West Point only, assumes this criteria and therefore does have a written policy regarding it. As to whether it would extend to an independant league, I plead ignorance.
The pro player is not on leave, but is active duty personnel and serves his first two off seasons on full time active duty. At any time during that period he may elect to leave baseball and rejoin traditional active duty for the remainder of his commitment.
Is this new information you
learned today? I don't remember this earlier.
Some I have posted earlier, some I haven't. Is there something specific you'd like to know?
And an FYI that I didn't address earlier, the "buy out" only occurs after serving two years of active duty in the off seasons, AND still a rostered player on a professional team. It's not truly a "buy out" though, because the player is not released from service, just altered the commitment.
The three remaining years of commitment (grads owe 5 years active duty and 3 years reserves), are doubled to 6 years and placed in the reserves. So during the 8 year span, the player will still be a commisioned officer in the Army. At any time during those reserve years, the player can be called back to active duty at the Army's discretion.
quote:any time during those reserve years, the player can be called back to active duty at the Army's discretion.
This goes for regular academy commissioned officers as well. Not just the athletes.
I will add that a MAJORITY are called back and MANY serve back-to-back 12-18 month deployments.
( and I dont mean to beautiful beaches of Tahiti, if you get my drift )
quote:I will add that a MAJORITY are called back and MANY serve back-to-back 12-18 month deployments.
( and I dont mean to beaches of Tahiti, if you get my drift )
Completely understood SSM...it is nice to see some helpful info posted and questions answered. It helps to give a more well-rounded picture of the situation. Thanks!
