I noticed where an Air Force Academy kid was doing quite well in the GCL. I didn't think those guys could get out of their committment unless they were inordinately tall or otherwise had a special circumstance etc. --- anyone know?
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I'd say being drafted counts as a special circumstance. 
With respect, JW, I doubt a young man who didn't get a place at the service academy and wanted a career in the armed forces would agree with you.
AcademyDad has a thread going in the General section about his son and the GCL.
AcademyDad has a thread going in the General section about his son and the GCL.
quote:I noticed where an Air Force Academy kid was doing quite well in the GCL. I didn't think those guys could get out of their committment
Officer Karl Bolt, Is stationed in Tampa.
Still Fulfilling his commitment to the Armed Forces at this time.
Orlando with respect, Do you think of the Thousands of Cadets that are out there.
That Officer Bolt took that Oppurtunity away from said young man.
Also Officer Bolt could do more for Moral and Honer being an Officer in the MLB, Then anything he could do Stationed over sea's. JMHO.
EH
quote:Originally posted by J.Weaver #5:
I'd say being drafted counts as a special circumstance.
Getting drafted is wonderful, but IMO, there are many things in life much more important than playing baseball.
EH, Orlando brings up a good point.
Of course there are things more important, but it would still count as a special circumstance, in my opinion.
Apparently the school felt the same way?
Apparently the school felt the same way?
TPM, Yes Orlando bring's up a good point.
Just not with this Young Gentlemen.
How many Cadets Fail, Or Get in trouble with Academic's.
Those cadets took a spot from somebody deserving a spot.
Like I said Officer Bolt is still fulfilling his commitment.
Not only that But if Ordered anywhere in the World.
Officer Bolt would Be there, No questions asked.
With No Regrets, It would be his Honer to serve as he is now.
JMHO.
EH
Just not with this Young Gentlemen.
How many Cadets Fail, Or Get in trouble with Academic's.
Those cadets took a spot from somebody deserving a spot.
Like I said Officer Bolt is still fulfilling his commitment.
Not only that But if Ordered anywhere in the World.
Officer Bolt would Be there, No questions asked.
With No Regrets, It would be his Honer to serve as he is now.
JMHO.
EH
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Sadly, I think the aspect that gets lost in this story is the fact that the young man has no intention of not fully fulfilling and honoring his military comittment in WHATEVER capacity that his superiors choose, and whenever and wherever they choose. So far his only "crime" is that he took his responsibility to win ballgames for the Air Force Academy too seriously, worked too hard, got too good and in the process gave himself and the military too many options. Sad when that is considered the WRONG thing to do.
Sadly if those who pass judgement knew him they would understand the situation better. I have known him peripherally for a few years and he is honorable, comitted and about as fine a young man as you will EVER, EVER meet on any level you choose. I think without knowing him and his family you cannot understand what a fine representative he is of the military and of us, and how much he values and takes his position seriously as does his family. I can assure you that he is not looking for "a way out." I can assure you that he is the not the selfish me first athlete that he is made out to be by some and that we are so accustomed to seeing. There are many ways to serve your contry, Might it just be that he can do 100 times more good as a semi-public figure representing the military than he ever could handling logistics?.
I assure you that he will serve, and he will serve with great distinction. The question is when, where, and in what capacity or package of capacities the military, not you, not me, sees best for him. He was brought into the academy in part because is athletically gifted and he was offered the opportunity to see how far that gift will take him, and in this capacity has given the military this option and this profile. So far all he has done is ask, and his superiors so far have agreed that it is in the best interest of their departments to let his baseball progress.
It will continue to be up to his superiors to decide if he is of more use to the nation in the "David Robinson" mode, or some other. That is their choice. He is not a villian for working hard, following his God given talent and giving his superiors that that option. I respectfully submit that where he can be best ultilzed is best left to those who make those decisions.
I only wish those who pass judgement on him knew him personally. As I've said his only crime is giving the military to many options.
I expected he would encounter resistence in the blather of sensationalist media, I had expected that he would be treated better here...
44
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Sadly, I think the aspect that gets lost in this story is the fact that the young man has no intention of not fully fulfilling and honoring his military comittment in WHATEVER capacity that his superiors choose, and whenever and wherever they choose. So far his only "crime" is that he took his responsibility to win ballgames for the Air Force Academy too seriously, worked too hard, got too good and in the process gave himself and the military too many options. Sad when that is considered the WRONG thing to do.
Sadly if those who pass judgement knew him they would understand the situation better. I have known him peripherally for a few years and he is honorable, comitted and about as fine a young man as you will EVER, EVER meet on any level you choose. I think without knowing him and his family you cannot understand what a fine representative he is of the military and of us, and how much he values and takes his position seriously as does his family. I can assure you that he is not looking for "a way out." I can assure you that he is the not the selfish me first athlete that he is made out to be by some and that we are so accustomed to seeing. There are many ways to serve your contry, Might it just be that he can do 100 times more good as a semi-public figure representing the military than he ever could handling logistics?.
I assure you that he will serve, and he will serve with great distinction. The question is when, where, and in what capacity or package of capacities the military, not you, not me, sees best for him. He was brought into the academy in part because is athletically gifted and he was offered the opportunity to see how far that gift will take him, and in this capacity has given the military this option and this profile. So far all he has done is ask, and his superiors so far have agreed that it is in the best interest of their departments to let his baseball progress.
It will continue to be up to his superiors to decide if he is of more use to the nation in the "David Robinson" mode, or some other. That is their choice. He is not a villian for working hard, following his God given talent and giving his superiors that that option. I respectfully submit that where he can be best ultilzed is best left to those who make those decisions.
I only wish those who pass judgement on him knew him personally. As I've said his only crime is giving the military to many options.
I expected he would encounter resistence in the blather of sensationalist media, I had expected that he would be treated better here...
44
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quote:Also Officer Bolt could do more for Moral and Honer being an Officer in the MLB, Then anything he could do Stationed over sea's. JMHO.
WOW! Now THAT is one heck of a statement! I'm sure that all of our service men and woman who are putting their lives on the line everyday overseas would be happy to know that they could be viewed as having more honor by playing baseball back in the USA than serving their country overseas!
To be clear, I do not know Officer Bolt or his family aside from what is written here on the HSBB site. Also, a huge congrats to him for being drafted by MLB. Hey, I'm a Philly gal myself...and Officer Bolt is one of MY guys now! I do not wish him anything but good luck, health and fortune in whatever direction his professional career takes him...whether on the baseball field or the military...or both!
However, to say that Mr. Bolt's contribution on the baseball field carries more honor and morale than anything he could do stationed overseas is a disservice to all of our fine men and women who have made that commitment and have put themselves in harms way in carrying out their duty. As much as we all love baseball, and it plays an important role in all of our lives on this sight...and regardless of political stances....I would think that most of us value and respect our servicemen and women and the sacrifices they make on our behalf. They deserve better than the above statement....JMO.
Considering Officer Bolt's commitment to the military and the type of young man so many have said he is...I would think that he himself would never place himself in the category of having more honor than his fellow soldiers either....regardless of WHERE he serves and in whatever capacity.
mrmom,
O44,
Just explained about as well as anybody could.
Great Testimonial Sir.
EH
quote:anyone know?
O44,
Just explained about as well as anybody could.
Great Testimonial Sir.
EH
luvbb,
You are correct in your Statement.
Although I did not mean it that way.
And there's know way that anything we do in baseball compare's to what are service member's are going thru with honor.
No arguement here.
EH
You are correct in your Statement.
Although I did not mean it that way.
And there's know way that anything we do in baseball compare's to what are service member's are going thru with honor.
No arguement here.
EH
Well said, luvbb.
We all love baseball here, but it is still a game and an entertainment at the professional level.
Being one of the 4100+ minor league ballplayers is about as semi-public as you can get. (As the 66er's fan t-shirt says --- 'all guts, no glory'.)
I'm not sure how observer44 thinks that the young man has been portrayed as a 'villain' here; observer certainly doth protest way too much.
I wonder if there would be such adamant support for the postponing of an armed forces career by a recent academy graduate in wartime if one was an American Idol finalist who wanted to pursue, instead, a singing career.
We all love baseball here, but it is still a game and an entertainment at the professional level.
Being one of the 4100+ minor league ballplayers is about as semi-public as you can get. (As the 66er's fan t-shirt says --- 'all guts, no glory'.)
I'm not sure how observer44 thinks that the young man has been portrayed as a 'villain' here; observer certainly doth protest way too much.
I wonder if there would be such adamant support for the postponing of an armed forces career by a recent academy graduate in wartime if one was an American Idol finalist who wanted to pursue, instead, a singing career.
Orlando, and luvbb.
I do understand where your coming from, And I'm not the one to make a statement.
I'm not articulate enough to explain??
And I'm not here to speak for anybody, These are my thought's and mine only.
Just please do not Question this young man's Character or his commitment to his Duty.
I'm proud of him.
As I hope his fellow Officer's and enlisted men are proud of him.
And if for some reason it boost's morale and fellow Service personal are Honored to have one of there own Represent them in some small capacity.
I feel thats a good thing.
It's just my opinion.
And I apologize if I did not convey my message clearly enough.
EH
I do understand where your coming from, And I'm not the one to make a statement.
I'm not articulate enough to explain??
And I'm not here to speak for anybody, These are my thought's and mine only.
Just please do not Question this young man's Character or his commitment to his Duty.
I'm proud of him.
As I hope his fellow Officer's and enlisted men are proud of him.
And if for some reason it boost's morale and fellow Service personal are Honored to have one of there own Represent them in some small capacity.
I feel thats a good thing.
It's just my opinion.
And I apologize if I did not convey my message clearly enough.
EH
playing MiLB .. very cool
Academy grad - Air Force Officer .. honor
some who see those career paths on the same level may well have precluded an intelligent discussion
I think we'll see things work thru and this young young man will be fine
and btw, I could not speak for the thoughts & intentions of my own children with the assurance O44/EH have on someone they've never met or "known peripherally"
what is known peripherally anyway?
Academy grad - Air Force Officer .. honor
some who see those career paths on the same level may well have precluded an intelligent discussion
I think we'll see things work thru and this young young man will be fine
and btw, I could not speak for the thoughts & intentions of my own children with the assurance O44/EH have on someone they've never met or "known peripherally"
what is known peripherally anyway?
quote:by Orlando: Being one of the 4100+ minor league ballplayers is about as semi-public as you can get
EH/44
I don't think that ANYONE ever questioned character or giving up total commitment or Bolt being portrayed as a villan, those statements are UNFAIR. Let's not get what's really important confused here, that's the point. We all know it takes a special person to be accepted into the service academies.
My reply was about JWeaver's comments. Baseball is a great game, and getting drafted is wonderful and cool but not a great honor. Serving your country is a great honor not playing baseball. In reality it is a job, just like serving your country is a job. One job certainly has a lot more appeal than the other, but one is a lot more important than the other, that's where some people have this issue confused. IMO.
Whatever the decision that will be made by his superiors will be in his best interest. But to suggest it is more important for him to play baseball now, well some may not agree and do not have to agree with that statement. As I said no one has ever questioned his character.
Let's bring our troops home so they can watch a baseball game while sitting in the stands. That would certainly boost morale.
JMO.
I don't think that ANYONE ever questioned character or giving up total commitment or Bolt being portrayed as a villan, those statements are UNFAIR. Let's not get what's really important confused here, that's the point. We all know it takes a special person to be accepted into the service academies.
My reply was about JWeaver's comments. Baseball is a great game, and getting drafted is wonderful and cool but not a great honor. Serving your country is a great honor not playing baseball. In reality it is a job, just like serving your country is a job. One job certainly has a lot more appeal than the other, but one is a lot more important than the other, that's where some people have this issue confused. IMO.
Whatever the decision that will be made by his superiors will be in his best interest. But to suggest it is more important for him to play baseball now, well some may not agree and do not have to agree with that statement. As I said no one has ever questioned his character.
Let's bring our troops home so they can watch a baseball game while sitting in the stands. That would certainly boost morale.
JMO.
quote:Just please do not Question this young man's Character or his commitment to his Duty.
If you re-read my post, you will clearly see that I did neither of the above, and actually made a point to state that in my post. What I DID do was question a statement posted by you. You have stated that your intent was not conveyed by the words you chose...I will take your word for that.
Bee
I never said I never met the young man.
And i'm sure that O44 has met Him also in a round about way?
Thats why i'm so Proud of him.
luvbb,
[qoute] You have stated that your intent was not conveyed by the words you chose...I will take your word for that.[/qoute] Thank You
EH
quote:and btw, I could not speak for the thoughts & intentions of my own children with the assurance O44/EH have on someone they've never met or "known peripherally"
I never said I never met the young man.
And i'm sure that O44 has met Him also in a round about way?
Thats why i'm so Proud of him.
luvbb,
[qoute] You have stated that your intent was not conveyed by the words you chose...I will take your word for that.[/qoute] Thank You
EH
EH/OB44
I admire you both for defending the player as an honorable young man.
It wasn't the issue and I do understand about how things become personal.
If anything was ever stated negative about any of our kids, or any kids, I would zap it in a NY minute.
I hope that you both realize this was about the game of baseball and the non importance of it compared to other things in life, not a hit on the player.
I hope this clears up any comments regarding passing judgement on the player, I don't think that was done here.
Besides, moms very seldom pass judgement on another person's son.
JMO.
I admire you both for defending the player as an honorable young man.
It wasn't the issue and I do understand about how things become personal.
If anything was ever stated negative about any of our kids, or any kids, I would zap it in a NY minute.
I hope that you both realize this was about the game of baseball and the non importance of it compared to other things in life, not a hit on the player.
I hope this clears up any comments regarding passing judgement on the player, I don't think that was done here.
Besides, moms very seldom pass judgement on another person's son.
JMO.
There are some implied indignations in this thread which I believe are perhaps unwarranted - whether you know the young man in question or not. Reading between the lines, it appears some are miffed that the young man may be wanting to have things both ways - get a supreme education for free and then renegotiate something else when the pro option becomes viable. The military academies want it both ways as well. Why do I say that? They could end all this alleged controversy by making it a policy that incoming cadet's must forgo any pro aspirations up front but they have not. I am guessing this would hurt their recruiting... let me explain...
To me the issue with the young man in question is not if he will fullfill his obligation but when (I believe this is what ob44 has been saying). Thus far, he is just asking to delay it till sometime in the future which seems reasonable to me. None of his comments (that I have seen in print) seem to indicate he thinks he is above anything or is trying to get out of anything but others may see it differently.
Here is the other side of it rather than just focusing on this one young man. He has 30 other teammates who were not drafted. If the Academy were to get rid of the ball team just to eliminate the possibility of a kid getting drafted someday, then maybe they would never have been able to attract those 30 other kids in the first place. Thus, it seems to me a small risk for them to take to allow those very few players to have a chance at pro ball IF that even ever happens. Karl is one of very few players in the history of the Air Force Academy to be drafted.
CPLZ's son is going to West Point and I am guessing (correct me if I am wrong Chip) may not be there if they would have nixed the pro option up front. I believe West Point allows pro prospects to buy out their obligation for cash which I believe is 200,000 or something like that. I realize some may have a problem with that policy but the service academy may consider it an acceptable risk since all the other players on the team will indeed become service members. It could be argued that the team is an effective recruiting tool for them (the academies) in spite of the possibility one or two every now and then will be drafted.
I suppose the other option is for the Academies to tell all their athletes that there is no pro option at the end of the rainbow. Either commit to the military or forget the Academy. I am guessing this is not a workable solution for them or otherwise that policy would already be in place.
To me the issue with the young man in question is not if he will fullfill his obligation but when (I believe this is what ob44 has been saying). Thus far, he is just asking to delay it till sometime in the future which seems reasonable to me. None of his comments (that I have seen in print) seem to indicate he thinks he is above anything or is trying to get out of anything but others may see it differently.
Here is the other side of it rather than just focusing on this one young man. He has 30 other teammates who were not drafted. If the Academy were to get rid of the ball team just to eliminate the possibility of a kid getting drafted someday, then maybe they would never have been able to attract those 30 other kids in the first place. Thus, it seems to me a small risk for them to take to allow those very few players to have a chance at pro ball IF that even ever happens. Karl is one of very few players in the history of the Air Force Academy to be drafted.
CPLZ's son is going to West Point and I am guessing (correct me if I am wrong Chip) may not be there if they would have nixed the pro option up front. I believe West Point allows pro prospects to buy out their obligation for cash which I believe is 200,000 or something like that. I realize some may have a problem with that policy but the service academy may consider it an acceptable risk since all the other players on the team will indeed become service members. It could be argued that the team is an effective recruiting tool for them (the academies) in spite of the possibility one or two every now and then will be drafted.
I suppose the other option is for the Academies to tell all their athletes that there is no pro option at the end of the rainbow. Either commit to the military or forget the Academy. I am guessing this is not a workable solution for them or otherwise that policy would already be in place.
I believe the service academies do have a policy in place for cadets who have the opportunity to play professional sports involving two years of active duty and a partial repayment of the cost of their education (to the tune of six figures). I believe this policy was put into place to deal with the very few cadets who develop professional sports potential. The academies have already offered a compromise.
But I do have faith that each year 4,000 quality candidates without professional sports aspirations could be found to fill the incoming places at the service academies.
Much has been made in discussions here before about commitment, questioning the ethics of hs players who verbally commit to one school but change their minds when the possibility of a better offer comes along or programs who fail to fulfill on promises made or even inferred by a player or their families. IMHO, a commitment to serve your country after having been given the benefit of an academy education is much more serious than the commitment to play for any given baseball program and should be held to the exacting standards of those institutions. Or even the standards discussed here before about the value and lesson of commitment.
The academic and physical standards for entry into the academies are high, as are the levels of training in both aspects. Just as the programs any of our sons improved them as players, the coaching and additional physical training geared to make them better and more fit officers involved in four years at a service academy makes their players better and stronger.
About a third of any entry class into one of the academies washes out before graduation for a variety of reasons. It is my understanding that no active duty commitment is incurred until the start of their third year giving, in the instance of a potential professional player, the opportunity to transfer to a civilian universtiy where that potential could be fully explored.
But I do have faith that each year 4,000 quality candidates without professional sports aspirations could be found to fill the incoming places at the service academies.
Much has been made in discussions here before about commitment, questioning the ethics of hs players who verbally commit to one school but change their minds when the possibility of a better offer comes along or programs who fail to fulfill on promises made or even inferred by a player or their families. IMHO, a commitment to serve your country after having been given the benefit of an academy education is much more serious than the commitment to play for any given baseball program and should be held to the exacting standards of those institutions. Or even the standards discussed here before about the value and lesson of commitment.
The academic and physical standards for entry into the academies are high, as are the levels of training in both aspects. Just as the programs any of our sons improved them as players, the coaching and additional physical training geared to make them better and more fit officers involved in four years at a service academy makes their players better and stronger.
About a third of any entry class into one of the academies washes out before graduation for a variety of reasons. It is my understanding that no active duty commitment is incurred until the start of their third year giving, in the instance of a potential professional player, the opportunity to transfer to a civilian universtiy where that potential could be fully explored.
You guys are missing the point. Lt. Karl Bolt, as expressed by Academydad and by Lt. Bolt himself, wants to serve in the United States Air Force. He has requested of the Secretary of Defense an exception to his commitment to the Air Force.. not an out. He has requested that he be allowed to pursue baseball while working in an adapted duty to the Air Force.
West Point has a graduate currently doing the same thing. He plays baseball and works as a recruiter. In fact, ARMY may have more than one doing that. They had two get drafted this past year who signed contracts.
Baseball can be used as a recruitment tool not only for the Academies, but for the armed services themselves.
ARMY, NAVY, and Air Force all compete at the DI level. They need quality athletes to compete at that level. Some of them are going attract attention from MLB scouts.
If you don't want baseball players from the Academies to be drafted, please work to shut down the other sports programs supported by the armed forces that allow military personnel to compete in competitions throughout the world in track, swimming, etc. Might as well be equal, right?
West Point has a graduate currently doing the same thing. He plays baseball and works as a recruiter. In fact, ARMY may have more than one doing that. They had two get drafted this past year who signed contracts.
Baseball can be used as a recruitment tool not only for the Academies, but for the armed services themselves.
ARMY, NAVY, and Air Force all compete at the DI level. They need quality athletes to compete at that level. Some of them are going attract attention from MLB scouts.
If you don't want baseball players from the Academies to be drafted, please work to shut down the other sports programs supported by the armed forces that allow military personnel to compete in competitions throughout the world in track, swimming, etc. Might as well be equal, right?
quote:Originally posted by J.Weaver #5:
I'd say being drafted counts as a special circumstance.
Bulldog,
I think that this was the point in question. And I don't think I missed it.
IMO, pro baseball is the low job on totem poll as far as priorities. My response was to the above comment.
The only people I think I may have offended are those whose sons do this for a living, the same as mine. Until you or your sons are in that situtation some day don't be so quick to judge the importance over other things in life.
quote:Baseball can be used as a recruitment tool not only for the Academies, but for the armed services themselves.
With all due respect....I hardly think the Academies need a "recruitment tool" other than the desire to serve one's country at the highest levels....assignments to the Academies are highly selective and competitive where the demand greatly outnumbers the supply. That is one of the reasons why assignments are held with such prestige.
After dropping my youngest off for his first year of college (no, I did not squall), I stood in the airport waiting to board a plane to head to Chicago to watch my oldest for the first time, when a large group of soldiers arrived to a thunderous round of applause.
It struck me hard that what my family was enjoying was the result of those men and their predecessors have done.
On this board we applaud the success of those that continue to thrive in their baseball careers.
Here we have a young officer has two options that many of us would be proud for our sons to have either offer.
He faces a formidable task in attempting to do both.
Let's wish him well.
It struck me hard that what my family was enjoying was the result of those men and their predecessors have done.
On this board we applaud the success of those that continue to thrive in their baseball careers.
Here we have a young officer has two options that many of us would be proud for our sons to have either offer.
He faces a formidable task in attempting to do both.
Let's wish him well.
quote:You guys are missing the point. Lt. Karl Bolt, as expressed by Academydad and by Lt. Bolt himself, wants to serve in the United States Air Force. He has requested of the Secretary of Defense an exception to his commitment to the Air Force.. not an out. He has requested that he be allowed to pursue baseball while working in an adapted duty to the Air Force.
I didn't miss it, I was trying to stay out of any "personal" discussion when it came to Officer Bolt and was trying to dicuss the military in GENERAL when it comes to our service men and women.
A question I would ask you...what kind of disruption to the military would it cause if every service man and woman who wanted to "pursue a career opportunity" outside of the military requested a deferrment or adapted duty assignment? Lets even take out of the equation all of the military men and woman who have to deal with unbelievable "hardships" in order to serve (ie, moms and dads BOTH being sent overseas leaving behind small children) and if THEY were all granted deferrments or "adapted assignments", which according to stories I see on the news periodically...they are not? Or, all those stories you hear about reservists being called, served their time only to come home and be re-called to duty after having re-established their personal lives and careers? They all go and serve without benefit of deferrment or adapted assignements. Actually, I know of a couple of our websters who have family members who are in these situations.
I think this is an illustration of why the particular case can be a real hot button issue. And why some might question the issues of commitment and ethics. Unfortunately, I see it more as another indication of how the allure of professional sports is dissproportionately valued and revered in our society that we are even discussing this and that a deferrment or adapted assignment is an option in the U.S. military to accomodate a sports career...altho, I can't say I'm surprised.
How proud I am of Officer Bolt and his brother!
I wish the Air Force would really publicize his success across this country for him to be a role model for our young men and women in this day and age of Barry Bonds, Michael Vick, and Lindsay Lohan!
Here is one example of someone who has excellent character, an athlete at the top of his game who is getting to compete at the next level, and also wants to serve his country!
I wish the Air Force would really publicize his success across this country for him to be a role model for our young men and women in this day and age of Barry Bonds, Michael Vick, and Lindsay Lohan!
Here is one example of someone who has excellent character, an athlete at the top of his game who is getting to compete at the next level, and also wants to serve his country!
Very well said, luvbb. Please read her post, Bulldog, as that is, indeed, the point.
With the current situation of extended and multiple tours of duty in Iraq for the active military and reserve personell, the idea of an academy grad enjoying a modified assignment with playing minor league ball being used as a recruiter for the military is dishonest, as the military has no intention to adapt assignments for each signee's individual schedules; it would be impossible to operate that way.
I also don't understand using one as a "recruitment tool" for the Academies. With the number of young Americans vying for those spots, why would the Academies want to attract more cadets hoping to serve modified assignments while pursing a professional sports career which, if successful, would mean leaving the service completely without fulfilling their five year commitment?
Service personell from many countries compete in Olympic individual sports with the name of their country on their chests. The comparison to paid, professional team sports is invalid.
Like luvbb and TPM, I have been trying to avoid making this a personal issue, but a discussion of the principle involved.
With the current situation of extended and multiple tours of duty in Iraq for the active military and reserve personell, the idea of an academy grad enjoying a modified assignment with playing minor league ball being used as a recruiter for the military is dishonest, as the military has no intention to adapt assignments for each signee's individual schedules; it would be impossible to operate that way.
I also don't understand using one as a "recruitment tool" for the Academies. With the number of young Americans vying for those spots, why would the Academies want to attract more cadets hoping to serve modified assignments while pursing a professional sports career which, if successful, would mean leaving the service completely without fulfilling their five year commitment?
Service personell from many countries compete in Olympic individual sports with the name of their country on their chests. The comparison to paid, professional team sports is invalid.
Like luvbb and TPM, I have been trying to avoid making this a personal issue, but a discussion of the principle involved.
quote:With the current situation of extended and multiple tours of duty in Iraq for the active military and reserve personell, the idea of an academy grad enjoying a modified assignment with playing minor league ball being used as a recruiter for the military is dishonest, as the military has no intention to adapt assignments for each signee's individual schedules; it would be impossible to operate that way.
I just read this thread today for the first time. If this was my son, boy would I want him to have a chance to pursue being drafted. However, the posts that recognize to single out any military person for a special opportunity such as this presents problems.
My son has a HS friend that was 20 years old, and a year into the marines (now in Iraq), when his 17 year old girlfriend gave birth to a premature baby who was in NICU for weeks. He was allowed to come home (for a week I believe), but missed the birth of course and left this young single mother to deal with a preemie with health issues. That was a special circumstance. If we brought home all the young men and women in Iraq alone who were having "special circumstances" at home right now, there would be a lot. Not to mention, in the entire military.
It's not as simple as letting someone pursue pro ball.
Please read this article;
Notice who is publishing this article?? EH
Hill, Dinga Excel During First Months Of Pro Careers
Courtesy: Army Athletic Communications
Release: 07/27/2007
Courtesy: Army Athletic Communications
http://www.goarmysports.com
Nick Hill
Nick Hill's Minor League Statistics
Milan Dinga's Minor League Statistics
WEST POINT, N.Y. – Nick Hill and Milan Dinga spent their collegiate baseball careers dominating enemy batters. A move to the professional ranks hardly changed all of that.
Little more than a month into their respective professional baseball careers, both have experienced a great deal of early success in their first stops in the minor leagues.
While Hill was chosen in the seventh round by the Seattle Mariners during June’s Major League Baseball First-Year Player Draft and later assigned to the Everett (Wash.) AquaSox of the Northwest League (Class-A, Short Season), Dinga was snared in the 10th round by the Los Angeles Angels and assigned to the Orem (Ore.) Owlz of the Pioneer League (Rookie League).
Named to the ABCA Northeast Region First Team for the third time in four years last month, Hill closed his collegiate career by copping Patriot League Pitcher of the Year honors for the third time in four years. He established or tied 46 school and conference records on game, season and career levels across a brilliant four-year collegiate career.
A two-time All-America choice and the first player in Patriot League history to win conference pitcher of the year honors outright three times, the native of Bluff City, Tenn. (Sullivan East H.S.), stands as the first player since the league’s inception to earn first team all-conference honors four consecutive years. He ranks as Army’s career leader in pitching victories (modern era), strikeouts, shutouts and innings pitched, among others.
After starring for the USA National Baseball Team last summer, Hill has sparkled during his debut season in the professional ranks. The most decorated baseball player in Army history has allowed just one earned run across 13.1 innings of work, spanning 10 appearances. Hill has yielded just 12 base hits and six walks, while striking out 18. Despite sporting a gaudy 0.68 earned run average, he sports a deceiving 0-3 record.
Hill has been used exclusively out of the bullpen this summer by Everett in an effort to limit his workload. It is believed the Mariners will return Hill to starting duties next spring. In his most recent outing on Monday (July 23), Hill fired two perfect innings of relief against the Vancouver Canadians, fanning four of the six batters he faced.
“It’s been everything I could have hope for, getting to play baseball every day,” explains Hill. “I’m having the time of my life right now. We’re playing games every day. We’re always either playing a game or traveling to a game. I’m very appreciative of the opportunity the Army is giving me to live a dream.”
Dinga experienced similar success before being felled by shoulder troubles, which have landed him on Orem’s Disabled List. Prior to the setback, Dinga had emerged as Orem’s closer, posting one save and a 1.35 ERA across four appearances. He struck out six and walked one, while permitting six base hits and just one earned run in 6.2 innings of work.
The finest closer in Army history, Dinga successfully converted a school- and Patriot League-record 27 career saves during his days at the Academy. He regularly dominated batters during the late innings for four consecutive years while at the Academy, blossoming into one of the nation’s top relief specialists. Dinga successfully converted 27 of 29 career save opportunities, including 23 in a row during a three-year span that ended in his next-to-last collegiate appearance this spring. In all, he established or tied nine Army and Patriot League pitching records.
The Tampa, Fla. (Robinson H.S.), native was scored upon just five times in 61 career appearances, registering a microscopic 1.14 earned run average during that time. The "lights-out" stopper permitted just seven extra-base hits (all doubles) during his Army career, posting 28 consecutive appearances without allowing an extra-base hit during a stretch that spanned his junior and senior seasons. In all, he did not yield a triple or a home run across his collegiate career en route to posting a 4-1 record with 27 saves. A four-year letterwinner, he fanned 71 and walked only 10 for a remarkable 7:1 strikeout-walk ratio, allowing just 43 hits in 63.1 innings pitched.
Scored upon just once during both his junior and senior campaigns, Dinga scripted a school record consecutive scoreless appearance streak of 32 that spanned his junior and senior years, before yielding two runs during his next-to-last career outing. In six career pitching performances against arch-rival Navy, he went 1-0 with three saves and did not allow a single run. He struck out four, did not walk a batter and yielded just three hits in 5.1 innings of work versus the Mids.
“Ever since I was a little kid I dreamed of playing pro ball and it’s been everything I ever dreamed of,” states Dinga, who is currently at the Angels spring training facility in Tempe, Ariz., undergoing rehabilitation for his injured shoulder. “It’s very disappointing being injured, but I’m trying to stay positive and continue with my rehabilitation to get my shoulder better. The Army has been understanding enough to allow me to continue to play the game I love playing and I am very grateful for that.”
Notes: A third alumnus of Army’s baseball program, Josh Holden (USMA’03), is currently toiling in the minor leagues ... Holden is currently a member of the Sarasota (Fla.) Reds of the Florida State League (High Class-A) ... Holden (USMA ‘03) is in his third season with the Reds’ organization, spending the past two summers at Billings (Mont.) (Rookie League) and Dayton (Ohio) (Low-A), respectively ... in 56 games this year (146 official at-bats), Holden is batting .267 with 14 runs scored and 14 runs batted in ... the speedy outfielder has collected two doubles, four triples and nabbed seven stolen bases in 10 attempts ... following a slow start at the plate, Holden is batting .302 in his last 31 games, spanning two months ... he batted a blazing .357 during the month of June and is hitting .333 overall with runners in scoring position this season.
Notice who is publishing this article?? EH
Hill, Dinga Excel During First Months Of Pro Careers
Courtesy: Army Athletic Communications
Release: 07/27/2007
Courtesy: Army Athletic Communications
http://www.goarmysports.com
Nick Hill
Nick Hill's Minor League Statistics
Milan Dinga's Minor League Statistics
WEST POINT, N.Y. – Nick Hill and Milan Dinga spent their collegiate baseball careers dominating enemy batters. A move to the professional ranks hardly changed all of that.
Little more than a month into their respective professional baseball careers, both have experienced a great deal of early success in their first stops in the minor leagues.
While Hill was chosen in the seventh round by the Seattle Mariners during June’s Major League Baseball First-Year Player Draft and later assigned to the Everett (Wash.) AquaSox of the Northwest League (Class-A, Short Season), Dinga was snared in the 10th round by the Los Angeles Angels and assigned to the Orem (Ore.) Owlz of the Pioneer League (Rookie League).
Named to the ABCA Northeast Region First Team for the third time in four years last month, Hill closed his collegiate career by copping Patriot League Pitcher of the Year honors for the third time in four years. He established or tied 46 school and conference records on game, season and career levels across a brilliant four-year collegiate career.
A two-time All-America choice and the first player in Patriot League history to win conference pitcher of the year honors outright three times, the native of Bluff City, Tenn. (Sullivan East H.S.), stands as the first player since the league’s inception to earn first team all-conference honors four consecutive years. He ranks as Army’s career leader in pitching victories (modern era), strikeouts, shutouts and innings pitched, among others.
After starring for the USA National Baseball Team last summer, Hill has sparkled during his debut season in the professional ranks. The most decorated baseball player in Army history has allowed just one earned run across 13.1 innings of work, spanning 10 appearances. Hill has yielded just 12 base hits and six walks, while striking out 18. Despite sporting a gaudy 0.68 earned run average, he sports a deceiving 0-3 record.
Hill has been used exclusively out of the bullpen this summer by Everett in an effort to limit his workload. It is believed the Mariners will return Hill to starting duties next spring. In his most recent outing on Monday (July 23), Hill fired two perfect innings of relief against the Vancouver Canadians, fanning four of the six batters he faced.
“It’s been everything I could have hope for, getting to play baseball every day,” explains Hill. “I’m having the time of my life right now. We’re playing games every day. We’re always either playing a game or traveling to a game. I’m very appreciative of the opportunity the Army is giving me to live a dream.”
Dinga experienced similar success before being felled by shoulder troubles, which have landed him on Orem’s Disabled List. Prior to the setback, Dinga had emerged as Orem’s closer, posting one save and a 1.35 ERA across four appearances. He struck out six and walked one, while permitting six base hits and just one earned run in 6.2 innings of work.
The finest closer in Army history, Dinga successfully converted a school- and Patriot League-record 27 career saves during his days at the Academy. He regularly dominated batters during the late innings for four consecutive years while at the Academy, blossoming into one of the nation’s top relief specialists. Dinga successfully converted 27 of 29 career save opportunities, including 23 in a row during a three-year span that ended in his next-to-last collegiate appearance this spring. In all, he established or tied nine Army and Patriot League pitching records.
The Tampa, Fla. (Robinson H.S.), native was scored upon just five times in 61 career appearances, registering a microscopic 1.14 earned run average during that time. The "lights-out" stopper permitted just seven extra-base hits (all doubles) during his Army career, posting 28 consecutive appearances without allowing an extra-base hit during a stretch that spanned his junior and senior seasons. In all, he did not yield a triple or a home run across his collegiate career en route to posting a 4-1 record with 27 saves. A four-year letterwinner, he fanned 71 and walked only 10 for a remarkable 7:1 strikeout-walk ratio, allowing just 43 hits in 63.1 innings pitched.
Scored upon just once during both his junior and senior campaigns, Dinga scripted a school record consecutive scoreless appearance streak of 32 that spanned his junior and senior years, before yielding two runs during his next-to-last career outing. In six career pitching performances against arch-rival Navy, he went 1-0 with three saves and did not allow a single run. He struck out four, did not walk a batter and yielded just three hits in 5.1 innings of work versus the Mids.
“Ever since I was a little kid I dreamed of playing pro ball and it’s been everything I ever dreamed of,” states Dinga, who is currently at the Angels spring training facility in Tempe, Ariz., undergoing rehabilitation for his injured shoulder. “It’s very disappointing being injured, but I’m trying to stay positive and continue with my rehabilitation to get my shoulder better. The Army has been understanding enough to allow me to continue to play the game I love playing and I am very grateful for that.”
Notes: A third alumnus of Army’s baseball program, Josh Holden (USMA’03), is currently toiling in the minor leagues ... Holden is currently a member of the Sarasota (Fla.) Reds of the Florida State League (High Class-A) ... Holden (USMA ‘03) is in his third season with the Reds’ organization, spending the past two summers at Billings (Mont.) (Rookie League) and Dayton (Ohio) (Low-A), respectively ... in 56 games this year (146 official at-bats), Holden is batting .267 with 14 runs scored and 14 runs batted in ... the speedy outfielder has collected two doubles, four triples and nabbed seven stolen bases in 10 attempts ... following a slow start at the plate, Holden is batting .302 in his last 31 games, spanning two months ... he batted a blazing .357 during the month of June and is hitting .333 overall with runners in scoring position this season.
quote:“Ever since I was a little kid I dreamed of playing pro ball and it’s been everything I ever dreamed of,” states Dinga, who is currently at the Angels spring training facility in Tempe, Ariz., undergoing rehabilitation for his injured shoulder.
Eh....I do not think ANYONE is questioning whether this happens or not in the Academies. However, I DO find the above quote particularly interesting. I would THINK that those who attend any of the Military Academies might have a different "dream"...like serve their country in a high level military capacity????
I also find it interesting that this story does not mention AT ALL how these two men are going to fulfill their obligations to the US Military.
quote:I also find it interesting that this story does not mention AT ALL how these two men are going to fulfill their obligations to the US Military.
Officer Bolt starts work as a Logistics Officer at MacDill AFB in Tampa on Monday. He
has already gone over (about 15 minutes from the Phillies Training Facility in
Clearwater) and met his 3 levels of Superiors over him. He thinks so far they're
great. Each one of them has already stated they would like to see him continue
(live the All-American Dream), and if it can be done on a local level, they're
going to try. At least until the Pentagon makes some sort of decision. I just
saw an article on Nick Hill and Dinga (07 West Point grads) who are both playing
MiLB path is already set... in the off-season they report as Recruiting Officers for
the Army. That's their Active Duty.
EH
Now does anybody have a problem with that.
The Military doesn't think they have a problem.
In fact they promote it.
Why would they [ The Military ] embrace this.
Why.
WHY.
If I have to explain it. It will just fall on Deaf Ears.
EH
The Military doesn't think they have a problem.
In fact they promote it.
Why would they [ The Military ] embrace this.
Why.
WHY.
If I have to explain it. It will just fall on Deaf Ears.
EH
quote:Now does anybody have a problem with that.
The Military doesn't think they have a problem.
In fact they promote it.
Why would they [ The Military ] embrace this.
Why.
WHY.
If I have to explain it. It will just fall on Deaf Ears.
**************
Eh..can you hear me now?
quote:Eh..can you hear me now?
Yes. Loud and clear. LOL
This individual's are fine young men, In fact the finest.
All are Military Are the finest in the world.
And I know for a fact, That if and when the Military calls on these individuals to be Stationed anywhere the Military want's to send them.
They will go, No questions asked.
They will do it with Commitment and with Honor.
EH
quote:And I know for a fact, That if and when the Military calls on these individuals to be Stationed anywhere the Military want's to send them.
They will go, No questions asked.
They will do it with Commitment and with Honor.
Actually Eh...the military DID call (when they entered the Academy and an agreement was entered into) and they DID ask a question when the time came for them to be assigned (can I have a deferred or alternate assignment?). Because I honestly do NOT think the Academy and the US Military had "part time recruitment officer in the pro-ball off season" as a job description in mind when they entered the Academy for that four-year prestigious education!
"Individuals", EH? In the military?
The question isn't about individuals; it's about the principle of commitment, in this case a commitment to serve your country for five years, partially in repayment for the gift of a $400,000 (the Academies' figure) education and certainly out of a stated desire to serve. And about fair play; if you commit to serve whether as a well-educated officer or a private, that commitment should be fulfilled, not deferred because of an elected "better offer".
West Point's motto is Duty, Honor, Country; I'm sure the other Academies have similiar rallying points. But I bet none of them are Duty, Honor, Country...On My Schedule.
The question isn't about individuals; it's about the principle of commitment, in this case a commitment to serve your country for five years, partially in repayment for the gift of a $400,000 (the Academies' figure) education and certainly out of a stated desire to serve. And about fair play; if you commit to serve whether as a well-educated officer or a private, that commitment should be fulfilled, not deferred because of an elected "better offer".
West Point's motto is Duty, Honor, Country; I'm sure the other Academies have similiar rallying points. But I bet none of them are Duty, Honor, Country...On My Schedule.
My son plays baseball at West Point. West Point is the currently the only service academy with a "pro service option" that will allow a player to pursue a pro career after graduation (they cannot be drafted in baseball after their junior year like normal college players).
The pro service option has the player serve as an Army recruiter for his first two off seasons. If he continues in pro ball, he buys out a remainder of his obligation, currently around $33,000, and his remaining three years of obligation would be doubled to 6 and placed in the inactive reserves. This means, that at anytime, the Army can call him back...as they see fit.
Army baseball had its best recruiting year ever this year, including 6 or 7 players that would have been drafted if not for their committment to West Point. The pro service option opens the door to a higher caliber player in all sports that support pro endeavors. My son would have never attended without the option to play professionally. These are agreed upon terms by both player/cadet and the Army. Some players drafted in the past, played for a year in the minors and then quit baseball to rejoin the Army and be shipped overseas. It's what they wanted to do. Whichever route these players go, either pro or military service, there are no losers, only winners. None of them that I have met, for a second think of military service as an obligation, they all view it as a privilige, the same as they view pro baseball. Personally, I find that quite refreshing.
Take a look at it from the Army's perspective. The US Army is the #1 advertiser in all of pro sports. By placing West Point grads in the pro's they are holding up for the country, examples of their fine institution. Pure gold from a marketing perspective, and the cheapest advertising the Army could buy. It works on every level for both the Cadet and the Army.
To try and end the debate about "what about the person who didn't get into West Point and would have preferred to serve in the military?" West Point is not the only way to serve in the Army as an officer. If that is truly their goal, they would hardly be dissuaded by rejection from West Point. Those that never serve active duty and go on to the pro's, they serve their country as examples held up for scrutiny every day. And every day they answer the call with head held high. They feel great affection for their country, their comrades, and their institution...and carry that message forward wherever they go.
Go Army...Beat Everybody
The pro service option has the player serve as an Army recruiter for his first two off seasons. If he continues in pro ball, he buys out a remainder of his obligation, currently around $33,000, and his remaining three years of obligation would be doubled to 6 and placed in the inactive reserves. This means, that at anytime, the Army can call him back...as they see fit.
Army baseball had its best recruiting year ever this year, including 6 or 7 players that would have been drafted if not for their committment to West Point. The pro service option opens the door to a higher caliber player in all sports that support pro endeavors. My son would have never attended without the option to play professionally. These are agreed upon terms by both player/cadet and the Army. Some players drafted in the past, played for a year in the minors and then quit baseball to rejoin the Army and be shipped overseas. It's what they wanted to do. Whichever route these players go, either pro or military service, there are no losers, only winners. None of them that I have met, for a second think of military service as an obligation, they all view it as a privilige, the same as they view pro baseball. Personally, I find that quite refreshing.
Take a look at it from the Army's perspective. The US Army is the #1 advertiser in all of pro sports. By placing West Point grads in the pro's they are holding up for the country, examples of their fine institution. Pure gold from a marketing perspective, and the cheapest advertising the Army could buy. It works on every level for both the Cadet and the Army.
To try and end the debate about "what about the person who didn't get into West Point and would have preferred to serve in the military?" West Point is not the only way to serve in the Army as an officer. If that is truly their goal, they would hardly be dissuaded by rejection from West Point. Those that never serve active duty and go on to the pro's, they serve their country as examples held up for scrutiny every day. And every day they answer the call with head held high. They feel great affection for their country, their comrades, and their institution...and carry that message forward wherever they go.
Go Army...Beat Everybody
quote:West Point's motto is Duty, Honor, Country; I'm sure the other Academies have similiar rallying points. But I bet none of them are Duty, Honor, Country On My Schedule.
Then WHY oh Why, Did the Military agree to these Individuals Request??
Orlando, You seem to be worried about that Dollar amount being paid back to the Tax Payers.
It must be driving you crazy to have Billions and billions and billions of Tax Payers money being unaccounted for in Iraq.
EH
quote:To try and end the debate about "what about the person who didn't get into West Point and would have preferred to serve in the military?" West Point is not the only way to serve in the Army as an officer. If that is truly their goal, they would hardly be dissuaded by rejection from West Point.
CPZL..thank you for the elaboration on "how things work" at West Point. It was very interesting, and best of luck to your son. Actually, one of my son's good friends/teammates from high school is a team mate of your son's.
Re: the above, perhaps I "mistyped" before..but only one of the many issues brought forth so far had to do with taking the military academy EDUCATION, prestige and advantages (ie, life-long contacts and opportunities) away from someone who's dream is to serve in the military...and give it to someone who's dream is to play professional baseball (as mentioned in the article posted by Eh). It wasn't necessarily "just" about becoming an officer in the military. Obviously, that can be attained several different ways and thru different avenues.
Oh, EH, for heaven's sake. I mentioned the figure to demonstrate that the facilities and education provided by the service academies is of a different level than civilian universities. I'm not "worried" about anything here and would hardly engage in a debate with you about military accounting.
I'm long past thinking I can have any impact on the military's decisions. But the rationale that they can accept and educate a young man to be an officer in wartime in order to hold him up as a professional ballplayer recruiting tool to enhance their advertising efforts to get more young people to send off to that war seems cynical in the extreme.
I'm long past thinking I can have any impact on the military's decisions. But the rationale that they can accept and educate a young man to be an officer in wartime in order to hold him up as a professional ballplayer recruiting tool to enhance their advertising efforts to get more young people to send off to that war seems cynical in the extreme.
CPZL...out of curiousity...does West Point allow any sort of "buy out" (for lack of a better word) for an officer who wishes to pursue a career outside of sports????? Would they accomodate someone who wanted to pursue an offer they received in.....I don't know....let's say an officer has a really good singing voice and got an offer to be a back-up singer on a professional tour? 
Or is that option available only for professional sports endeavors?
Orlando,
This is were we differ.
I do understand your point of view.
I'm just trying to explain My point.
Like I said I'm not articulate enough to point that out, Obviously.
LOL
These young men will be the first one's to tell you that it's just a game.
It does not compare to what there Fellow Soldiers are going through in Harm's way.
But the Military must see some Benefit.
The Benefit out ways the Problem
Are it would not happen.
EH
quote:I'm long past thinking I can have any impact on the military's decisions. But the rationale that they can accept and educate a young man to be an officer in wartime in order to hold him up as a professional ballplayer recruiting tool to enhance their advertising efforts to get more young people to send off to that war seems cynical in the extreme.
This is were we differ.
I do understand your point of view.
I'm just trying to explain My point.
Like I said I'm not articulate enough to point that out, Obviously.
LOL
These young men will be the first one's to tell you that it's just a game.
It does not compare to what there Fellow Soldiers are going through in Harm's way.
But the Military must see some Benefit.
The Benefit out ways the Problem
Are it would not happen.
EH
just wondering .. are you CIA?quote:by EH: ... Officer Bolt starts work as a Logistics Officer at MacDill AFB in Tampa on Monday. He has already gone over (about 15 minutes from the Phillies Training Facility in Clearwater* and met his 3 levels of Superiors over him. He thinks so far they're great. Each one of them has already stated they would like to see him continue
(live the All-American Dream), and if it can be done on a local level, they're going to try. At least until the Pentagon makes some sort of decision
can ya tap a few more phones for me??
quote:just wondering .. are you CIA?
can ya tap a few more phones for me??
Yes I am.
What would you like to know.
Of course you know what I have to do now. LOL
We all know this is a sensitive issue.
and i'm not trying to make light of it.
I'm just trying to let you know that these are Honorable young men.
Trying to do the best of both world's.
Embrace it.
It's not a bad thing.
In fact it's a feel good story as far as I'm concerned.
EH
Wow! Never thought my innocent question would get so many emotional responses.
I guess the Services look more favorably on players who have an opportunity for pro ball than they used to...which I think is reasonable if possible.
If that wasn't the case I doubt the MLB would draft them so high (Army guys 7th and 10th rounds).
Personnaly, i think it's great when individuals with individual circumsatnces are treated individually rather than lumped under a general rule!
A step in the right direction...IMO.
I guess the Services look more favorably on players who have an opportunity for pro ball than they used to...which I think is reasonable if possible.
If that wasn't the case I doubt the MLB would draft them so high (Army guys 7th and 10th rounds).
Personnaly, i think it's great when individuals with individual circumsatnces are treated individually rather than lumped under a general rule!
A step in the right direction...IMO.
quote:
I But the rationale that they can accept and educate a young man to be an officer in wartime in order to hold him up as a professional ballplayer recruiting tool to enhance their advertising efforts to get more young people to send off to that war seems cynical in the extreme.
Actually, in the cold light of day, it looks amazingly fiscally responsible for a government entity and a sound business decision that produces nothing but positives.
quote:Originally posted by luvbb:
CPZL...out of curiousity...does West Point allow any sort of "buy out" (for lack of a better word) for an officer who wishes to pursue a career outside of sports????? Would they accomodate someone who wanted to pursue an offer they received in.....I don't know....let's say an officer has a really good singing voice and got an offer to be a back-up singer on a professional tour?
LUVBB,
Is it your intention to try and support your position by bringing up ludicrous examples? Are singers now recruited to major universities and held up as examples or icons for the institutions? How many singers graduate college and make lasting impressions on millions of people?
I outlined as best I could the policy and reasoning for it. Your question is redundant in nature, because the answer to it has already been explained. I can't understand why you would choose to ignore it.
With respect, CPLZ, I don't think minor league ballplayers are held up as icons (even on this site) or "make lasting impressions on millions of people". You're waaayyyy ahead of yourself there.
Although I might hold up Bono as a singer who fits that bill.
The question is hardly ludicrous. The question was, are professional sports the only career that would outrank that of an Academy-educated officer?
Attending a civilian university prepares one for a universe of potential careers; attending a service Academy holds a specific and important commitment. I'm frankly surprised that the Academy allows entry with an alternate path as a goal.
You explained the policy and it is understood. I believe we are allowed to disagree with it, as do previous graduates of West Point.
Although I might hold up Bono as a singer who fits that bill.
The question is hardly ludicrous. The question was, are professional sports the only career that would outrank that of an Academy-educated officer?
Attending a civilian university prepares one for a universe of potential careers; attending a service Academy holds a specific and important commitment. I'm frankly surprised that the Academy allows entry with an alternate path as a goal.
You explained the policy and it is understood. I believe we are allowed to disagree with it, as do previous graduates of West Point.
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:quote:
I But the rationale that they can accept and educate a young man to be an officer in wartime in order to hold him up as a professional ballplayer recruiting tool to enhance their advertising efforts to get more young people to send off to that war seems cynical in the extreme.
Actually, in the cold light of day, it looks amazingly fiscally responsible for a government entity and a sound business decision that produces nothing but positives.
So now I understand that you don't see that using an officer who has had a program tailored to his needs as an example would mislead recruits. The goal is to recruit; the ends justify the means.
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
Although I might hold up Bono as a singer who fits that bill.
You explained the policy and it is understood. I believe we are allowed to disagree with it, as do previous graduates of West Point.
Which college did Bono attend?
What graduates are in disagreement? I haven't met any, and I've met a lot of grads and am ex-Army.
The question wasn't ludicrous, trying to use it to support an argument where evidence to the contrary already in effect was.
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
So now I understand that you don't see that using an officer who has had a program tailored to his needs as an example would mislead recruits. The goal is to recruit; the ends justify the means.
Actually, I believe you are refusing to understand this subject at all. You are entitled to your opinion, but you seem hell bent on disagreement, which is your right.
You are opposed to a pre arranged and explicit program that benefits greatly, both the Service and a Cadet and somehow want to find unfairness where none exists.
quote:LUVBB,
Is it your intention to try and support your position by bringing up ludicrous examples? Are singers now recruited to major universities and held up as examples or icons for the institutions? How many singers graduate college and make lasting impressions on millions of people?
Honestly CPZL...I apologize if you took offense...it was sincerely not meant that way. It was just meant to ask an honest question (because I do not know the answer) if the Academies allow "buy outs" (again...not sure if that is the correct terminology) for professions that are not sports related????? I'm sorry if you took offense...it was not meant to be a "stupid" question. But if you can't take the time to answer it in a polite way...then never mind. I have tried my BEST to be civil in this discussion and not point any fingers PERSONALLY or "name call"....instead I have questioned the military/academies and perhaps society in general for putting "athletes" above the average soldier. I have gone out of my way to say I do not know Mr. Bolt...and I wish him the best. He is only pursuing avenues that the MILITARY and ACADEMY have allowed for him. But we are allowed to disagree on whether those avenues should be allowed to exist. We are allowed to ask questions and debate. Altho, I do not think I have had ANY of my "questions" answered directly except by answers like "when asked, he will serve with honor" and to be called "ludicrous" by you. Honestly, I think the same word COULD be used for the policy in place....but instead of calling it that I have asked some questions and pointed out some examples that have been conveniently ignored.
But..thanks for the input!
LUVBB,
Are singers now recruited to major universities and held up as examples or icons for the institutions? How many singers graduate college and make lasting impressions on millions of people?
****************************
But..to answer your question...I would say definitely YES!!!! Obviously you do not know how hard it is to get into some performing arts majors at major universities...let alone into performing arts colleges (hmmmm....a specialization school...sort of like an "academy"?)???? Yes, the best are contacted and asked to apply. And yes..there are major scholarships for those talented enough. And in answer to your question..I would venture to guess there are about the SAME number of performing artists who have graduated from college and have made a lasting impression on millions of people as there are baseball players who have gone the same route. AND..probably an equally minimal number of each actually become successful enough to make a good living at it. The success rate for both are probably minimal. Singing "backup" I would equate to getting your feet wet in the minors. So personally...I do not think the "comparison" is all that LUDICROUS...EXCEPT for the fact that performing artists aren't asked to serve their country in return for their education....but, again I ask my question...what would happen if an academy graduate was offered an opportunity equally as prestigious as an athlete playing minor league ball? I guess from your "ludicrous" reply you do not think ANYTHING could be on equal footing outside of the athletic realm. But then again...I think our culture has placed way too much of an importance on BOTH professional athletes AND performing artists. Altho, from your "ludicrous" argument....I guess we are safe to assume you only fall into the category of only promoting the former.
Are singers now recruited to major universities and held up as examples or icons for the institutions? How many singers graduate college and make lasting impressions on millions of people?
****************************
But..to answer your question...I would say definitely YES!!!! Obviously you do not know how hard it is to get into some performing arts majors at major universities...let alone into performing arts colleges (hmmmm....a specialization school...sort of like an "academy"?)???? Yes, the best are contacted and asked to apply. And yes..there are major scholarships for those talented enough. And in answer to your question..I would venture to guess there are about the SAME number of performing artists who have graduated from college and have made a lasting impression on millions of people as there are baseball players who have gone the same route. AND..probably an equally minimal number of each actually become successful enough to make a good living at it. The success rate for both are probably minimal. Singing "backup" I would equate to getting your feet wet in the minors. So personally...I do not think the "comparison" is all that LUDICROUS...EXCEPT for the fact that performing artists aren't asked to serve their country in return for their education....but, again I ask my question...what would happen if an academy graduate was offered an opportunity equally as prestigious as an athlete playing minor league ball? I guess from your "ludicrous" reply you do not think ANYTHING could be on equal footing outside of the athletic realm. But then again...I think our culture has placed way too much of an importance on BOTH professional athletes AND performing artists. Altho, from your "ludicrous" argument....I guess we are safe to assume you only fall into the category of only promoting the former.
Perhaps you could investigate the USMA's policy on smilies; then you would have understood the Bono comment.
And if the question wasn't ludicrous, is there an answer?
OK, I'll give you the names of the graduates who disagreed, and you can give me the names of yours. Rather reminds me of the old saw about the child who was told to eat their vegetables because there were starving children in Ethiopia. "Yeah? Name one."
I'm not refusing to understand the subject. (Isn't it odd the way someone in disageeement just "doesn't understand'?) I'm not agreeing with the policy.
There is no "unfairness" as far as the cadets who are drafted (an ironic word in this context) are concerned. The unfairness lies in the applicant who intended to make good on a five year commitment to the military who was not accepted in favor of the applicant with alternate aspirations, the personnel who serve, most particularly in Iraq, leaving difficult circumstances to those they have left behind, and the recruits who are led to believe, by that 'pro sports' example, that their personal aspirations will be taken into consideration for their assignment.
Alas, the army having a policy doesn't make it righteous.
And if the question wasn't ludicrous, is there an answer?
OK, I'll give you the names of the graduates who disagreed, and you can give me the names of yours. Rather reminds me of the old saw about the child who was told to eat their vegetables because there were starving children in Ethiopia. "Yeah? Name one."
I'm not refusing to understand the subject. (Isn't it odd the way someone in disageeement just "doesn't understand'?) I'm not agreeing with the policy.
There is no "unfairness" as far as the cadets who are drafted (an ironic word in this context) are concerned. The unfairness lies in the applicant who intended to make good on a five year commitment to the military who was not accepted in favor of the applicant with alternate aspirations, the personnel who serve, most particularly in Iraq, leaving difficult circumstances to those they have left behind, and the recruits who are led to believe, by that 'pro sports' example, that their personal aspirations will be taken into consideration for their assignment.
Alas, the army having a policy doesn't make it righteous.
we'd be remiss if we didn't mention the rest of the teamquote:by MCO: Although I might hold up Bono as a singer who fits that bill
Oh, Bee, U2?
http://christianmusic.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?...ww.standyesteady.com
WOW....West Point Glee Club has CD's available. I would guess there are some very good singers in that club!
WOW....West Point Glee Club has CD's available. I would guess there are some very good singers in that club!
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
With respect, CPLZ, I don't think minor league ballplayers are held up as icons (even on this site) or "make lasting impressions on millions of people". You're waaayyyy ahead of yourself there.
Although I might hold up Bono as a singer who fits that bill.
The question is hardly ludicrous. The question was, are professional sports the only career that would outrank that of an Academy-educated officer?
Attending a civilian university prepares one for a universe of potential careers; attending a service Academy holds a specific and important commitment. I'm frankly surprised that the Academy allows entry with an alternate path as a goal.
You explained the policy and it is understood. I believe we are allowed to disagree with it, as do previous graduates of West Point.
Sure, after graduating Cadets (and Midshipmen too) have agreed to 5 years of duty. Does anywhere specifically state those 5 years must be done right this second after graduation??
What many do not realize probably is that there are a few who have been drafted, played one summer of ball, and then went to active duty. ARMY's catcher, umm Williamson I believe was the name, was drafted by the Detroit Tigers, played one summer and last I knew was in Iraq. The Army didn't have to give him that summer off to play ball. The leave he used is given to ALL graduates-- 60 days leave after graduation. So far Karl Bolt has used his leave and then was granted additional leave that puts him in the negative for the next year.
Orlando, I kinda started up top and then got carried away with something else. I've put in bold something I feel people don't quite understand about the Service Academies. Sure, one purpose is to develop officers for the respective branch (West Point- Army, Annapolis- Navy and Marine Corps, Air Force- Air Force) but that is not the only purpose. I was going to post the West Point Mission, however reviewing it just now it would contradict my point. West Point was not started to only create officers in the Army. It was an engineering school and still is an engineering school. If the SOLE PURPOSE was to develop war fighters, then why would they have computer science classes or PE classes, etc?
West Point's Mission is this:
"To educate, train, and inspire the Corps of Cadets so that each graduate is a commissioned leader of character committed to the values of Duty, Honor, Country and prepared for a career of professional excellence and service to the Nation as an officer in the United States Army."
But they are also creating LEADERS. Business leaders, politicians, teachers, etc. The government realizes the Army is not for everyone. They have found many West Point graduates are leaving as soon after graduation as possible. For some, that's a year or two; for others it's 5 years. Meanwhile, others stay for many years; 20, 30 years or maybe more. But not all of them could do that. My uncle has a nephew on the other side of the family who graduated West Point in 1999; he was out of the military shortly after September 11. I believe he did maybe one tour in Afghanistan. Now he works in the business world.
Final point. Orlando, you made mention in a later post about the "recruits led to believe their personal aspirations will be taken into consideration for their assignment." It isn't a LEAD ON. Their personal aspirations ARE taken into consideration! As a graduate of an Academy, it depends on class rank. As a recruit who is enlisting, it depends on if that particular slot is available. A recruit typically gets to choose his or her MOS and sometimes even gets to choose his or her first duty station. Now if you screw up and say fail out of a specific class, you could get shipped anywhere for your first duty station. If you were to fail something, you become AT NEED OF THE ARMY. These graduates are much the same. Right now the Army needs recruiters.
quote:You are opposed to a pre arranged and explicit program that benefits greatly, both the Service and a Cadet and somehow want to find unfairness where none exists.
Okay...here is the question that no one seems to be able to answer so far. I will try ONCE AGAIN. Can someone please explain to me how this policy "benefits" the enlisted men and women in the service (from where the GREATEST manpower comes from in all the branches of the service) who do not have the same options for "alternate assignments" and delays in service as an Academy Grad/professional athlete???? This, IMO is where the unfairness DOES exist. Please explain how the lack of "alternate assignments" is FAIR when both mom AND dad are sent overseas. Please explain how the lack of "alternate assignments" is FAIR to the reservist who is re-assigned overseas after already serving his time. BUT, "alternate assignment" IS available to an academy grad/ballplayer. How is that disparity GOOD for the service? Again...I am talking POLICY...not personal.
Let me reiterate AGAIN, this is a question about POLICY....NOT about a cadet's option to utilize that policy. And yes, I understand it is "pre-arranged and agreed" upon by the cadet and the academy. I am not questioning THAT. I AM questioning whether this is a policy JUST for athletes in academies...and I am questioning HOW is it fair to the vast majority of our service men and woman who ARE serving overseas without benefit of "options" even under difficult cirmstances?
I do not understand why terms such as "unwillingness to listen" and "ludicrous" are callously thrown about due to "questioning" and "differing opinions". NO ONE has to agree here...and it is apparent no one will! However, a "polite" dialogue might be nice. But I do find it interesting that people tend to get mean-spirited and veer away from answering questions when opinions are different.
quote:Originally posted by luvbb:
LUVBB,
Are singers now recruited to major universities and held up as examples or icons for the institutions? How many singers graduate college and make lasting impressions on millions of people?
****************************
But..to answer your question...I would say definitely YES!!!! Obviously you do not know how hard it is to get into some performing arts majors at major universities...let alone into performing arts colleges (hmmmm....a specialization school...sort of like an "academy"?)???? Yes, the best are contacted and asked to apply. And yes..there are major scholarships for those talented enough. And in answer to your question..I would venture to guess there are about the SAME number of performing artists who have graduated from college and have made a lasting impression on millions of people as there are baseball players who have gone the same route. AND..probably an equally minimal number of each actually become successful enough to make a good living at it. The success rate for both are probably minimal. Singing "backup" I would equate to getting your feet wet in the minors. So personally...I do not think the "comparison" is all that LUDICROUS...EXCEPT for the fact that performing artists aren't asked to serve their country in return for their education....but, again I ask my question...what would happen if an academy graduate was offered an opportunity equally as prestigious as an athlete playing minor league ball? I guess from your "ludicrous" reply you do not think ANYTHING could be on equal footing outside of the athletic realm. But then again...I think our culture has placed way too much of an importance on BOTH professional athletes AND performing artists. Altho, from your "ludicrous" argument....I guess we are safe to assume you only fall into the category of only promoting the former.
Ok, name 10 famous singers and what college they went to.
I fully appreciate the goal of the Academies and know that all graduates will not be 'on the ground'. Particularly if they graduate from USAFA ) But that doesn't change the point that their work, be it in engineering, administration, logistics, in further training of subsequent cadets, or any one of a number of alternatives should be in service of their country as an officer for, at a minimum, the stated tour of duty, be it 4, 5 or 7 as it has been at one time or another.
Of course, the individual cadet's talents and professional goals should be taken into consideration; it's the best use of personnel. I'm just maintaining that, for Academy graduates, it should be within the realm of the service who educated them.
And of course recruits (not Academy graduates) choose their service based on their interests and request duty. But I would think it is naive to suggest that their requests are universally accommodated or only their failure at that choice would lead them into a choice made by their branch of the service. Needs are needs, and the military will fill their own needs as opposed to taking into consideration the individual's. Were that the case, Hawaii and the Mediteranean would house more troops than Iraq.
I am further aware that graduates have leave after graduation. The question comes in when that leave is over: if that short season is successful, is the graduate a ballplayer with an offseason job of, say, recruiter, or an officer as he commited to be?
This question seems to arise out of the vast over-valuation of professional athletes.
) But that doesn't change the point that their work, be it in engineering, administration, logistics, in further training of subsequent cadets, or any one of a number of alternatives should be in service of their country as an officer for, at a minimum, the stated tour of duty, be it 4, 5 or 7 as it has been at one time or another.Of course, the individual cadet's talents and professional goals should be taken into consideration; it's the best use of personnel. I'm just maintaining that, for Academy graduates, it should be within the realm of the service who educated them.
And of course recruits (not Academy graduates) choose their service based on their interests and request duty. But I would think it is naive to suggest that their requests are universally accommodated or only their failure at that choice would lead them into a choice made by their branch of the service. Needs are needs, and the military will fill their own needs as opposed to taking into consideration the individual's. Were that the case, Hawaii and the Mediteranean would house more troops than Iraq.
I am further aware that graduates have leave after graduation. The question comes in when that leave is over: if that short season is successful, is the graduate a ballplayer with an offseason job of, say, recruiter, or an officer as he commited to be?
This question seems to arise out of the vast over-valuation of professional athletes.
quote:Originally posted by luvbb:quote:You are opposed to a pre arranged and explicit program that benefits greatly, both the Service and a Cadet and somehow want to find unfairness where none exists.
Okay...here is the question that no one seems to be able to answer so far. I will try ONCE AGAIN. Can someone please explain to me how this policy "benefits" the enlisted men and women in the service (from where the GREATEST manpower comes from in all the branches of the service) who do not have the same options for "alternate assignments" and delays in service as an Academy Grad/professional athlete???? This, IMO is where the unfairness DOES exist.
Again, this is a question about POLICY....NOT about a cadet's option to utilize that policy. And yes, I understand it is "pre-arranged and agreed" upon by the cadet and the academy. I am not questioning THAT. I AM questioning whether this is a policy JUST for athletes in academies...and I am questioning HOW is it fair to the vast majority of our service men and woman who ARE serving overseas without benefit of "options".
It does not benefit enlisted personal already in service. However, it is not unfair to them either. That's like saying it is unfair to have a God given ability and be given special priveleges to use it...like make millions of dollars throwing a fastball...or getting a record contract for singing.
No, there are not options to personel for singing. Why would there be? The service cannot use this to their advantage the same way. Universities across America have publicity and marketing departments. These departments use the talents of students within their universities to further themselves. Every college in America participates in this endeavor. Now however, according to you, there is some unfairness when people are allowed options that are not available to other people. I have yet to hear another cadet, service person, retired service, or former grad stand up say they believe this policy to be unfair, yet you point to this as unfair. Army graduated 7 seniors from their baseball team last year. The 5 who are currently serving active duty are thrilled that their other two teammates are playing pro ball. Every cadet I have talked to thinks that the idea of having a high caliber baseball team is really cool. They love the idea that they went to school with guys who might be a major leaguer some day (kinda like civilian universities and non enlisted people).
Why must you purport that people currently serving would think this unfair. This is a voulunteer Army. No one is serving against their will. They didn't enlist in the service or at West Point and then turn and point a finger and ask why someone else is being treated "better" or "differently". You are simply making that up and it doesn't hold water.
The service is trying to use its personal to best benefit themselves. If that means that they can get millions of dollars of free PR and advertising by allowing an occasional cadet to turn pro, they have shown that's an investment they want to make...just the same as any other university in America. Your whole argument is based on the "burden of duty principle". What you fail to realize, is the duty is not considered a burden by the people who bear it, it is considered a privilege. When you come to terms with that, you will be a little closer to understanding how the cadet is torn between baseball and service to his country, and not fleeing an obligation.
CPLZ, your question about college graduate famous singers diverts the question as to whether there are any other careers, other than pro sports, for which a commitment to the service Academies can be "modified".
Of course, that also begs the question as to whether a modified commitment can be called a commitment.
Performance artists who attend college are generally in the realm of chorales or opera; you, then, might argue that they're not 'famous enough'. Immaterial. The original question remains unanswered.
Of course, that also begs the question as to whether a modified commitment can be called a commitment.
Performance artists who attend college are generally in the realm of chorales or opera; you, then, might argue that they're not 'famous enough'.
Immaterial. The original question remains unanswered.quote:Ok, name 10 famous singers and what college they went to.
Okay..you want to play games now. But all's fair...please answer MY question mentioned above when I'm done:
Art Garfunkel - Columbia
Garth Brooks - Oklahoma State
Miles Davis - Julliard (sorry..not sure if that
is actually a 'college' or not...but prestigious
nonetheless...feel free to NOT count it among
my TEN)
Michael Stipe (REM) - U of Georgia
Mick Jagger - London School of Economics
George Strait - SW Texas State
Bob Dylan - U of Minnesota
Patti Smith - Glassboro
Gene Simmons - Sullivan College
Harry Connick Jr. - Hunter College and
Manhattan School of Music
David Byrne - Rhode Island School of Design
Paul Simon - Queens College
Stephen Stills - University of Florida
Grace Slick - University of Miami
Kenny Chesney - East Tennessee State
Herbie Hancock - Grinnell College
Sheryl Crow - U of Missouri
Kenny G - U of Washington
Kris Kristofferson - Oxford (Rhodes Scholar)
Peter Wolf - Boston Museum School of Fine Arts
Just a quick google search...do you want more?
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
And of course recruits (not Academy graduates) choose their service based on their interests and request duty. But I would think it is naive to suggest that their requests are universally accommodated or only their failure at that choice would lead them into a choice made by their branch of the service. Needs are needs, and the military will fill their own needs as opposed to taking into consideration the individual's. Were that the case, Hawaii and the Mediteranean would house more troops than Iraq.
I am further aware that graduates have leave after graduation. The question comes in when that leave is over: if that short season is successful, is the graduate a ballplayer with an offseason job of, say, recruiter, or an officer as he commited to be?
This question seems to arise out of the vast over-valuation of professional athletes.
You are wrong about enlistment. When you enlist, you have a contract that says exactly what duties you will perform in the service. The service doesn't change that, it would be breach. If you enlist for nuclear engineering, that's where you go.
As to which job comes first, take into account the high quality of the individual that they start with, then put 4 years of INTENSIVE molding into as West Point calls it, "Leaders of Character", and I believe you'll find the words, DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY, will answer that question.
As to the value of the player, it's a free market, and I'm proud to say that I did my part in the Army to defend that value and others.
quote:Originally posted by luvbb:quote:Ok, name 10 famous singers and what college they went to.
Okay..you want to play games now. But all's fair...please answer MY question mentioned above when I'm done:
Art Garfunkel - Columbia
Garth Brooks - Oklahoma State
Miles Davis - Julliard (sorry..not sure if that
is actually a 'college' or not...but prestigious
nonetheless...feel free to NOT count it among
my TEN)
Michael Stipe (REM) - U of Georgia
Mick Jagger - London School of Economics
George Strait - SW Texas State
Bob Dylan - U of Minnesota
Patti Smith - Glassboro
Gene Simmons - Sullivan College
Harry Connick Jr. - Hunter College and
Manhattan School of Music
David Byrne - Rhode Island School of Design
Paul Simon - Queens College
Stephen Stills - University of Florida
Grace Slick - University of Miami
Kenny Chesney - East Tennessee State
Herbie Hancock - Grinnell College
Sheryl Crow - U of Missouri
Kenny G - U of Washington
Kris Kristofferson - Oxford (Rhodes Scholar)
Peter Wolf - Boston Museum School of Fine Arts
Just a quick google search...do you want more?
Nope, my point is made...you didn't know a single one, you had to research it...most posters here could give you 10 baseball players and their colleges without having to google it. You shot your own argument in the foot with that one.
You, like Orlando, are hell bent on being right and refuse to listen. That's ok, people do that all the time.
quote:No, there are not options to personel for singing. Why would there be? The service cannot use this to their advantage the same way.
Seriously????? With the unprecedented and unparallelled prestige and influence that BOTH athletes AND performing artists have..you REALLY do not think if someone in the vein of a "Kenny Chesney" was an academy cadet and given an "alternate assignment" to develop his talents and appeal that it could not be used to the military's advantage????? Do you have teenaged kids?
Hey, if the military is going to use ATHLETES to their advantage in the PR department for "morale and honor" (according to EH)....then they sure as heck are missing out on a gold pile by overlooking performing artists. Who do the majority of our youth look up to and revere? Athletes and performing artists.
IMO..not so ludicrous.
But thank you for your explanation. I do not agree with it at all...personally, I see it as a rationalization for preferential treatment and another example of how the value of professional sports is overemphasized by our society, I know you will never see it that way. But I accept your viewpoint without ridicule or put downs. Thank goodness we live in America where differing viewpoints can be accomodated...thanks in large part to our military.
quote:most posters here could give you 10 baseball players and their colleges without having to google it.
Seriously, I couldn't do that either. No, I'm wrong..I could tell you that Pat Burrell/Miami and Chase Utley/UCLA but only because my daughter is obsessed with them....but my daughter didn't enroll at either of those colleges because of them either. Some of those musicians I could tell you off the top of my head too...because "to me" they are common knowledge. Maybe it is the male point of view vs. a woman's. Maybe it is because you pay way too much attention and put too much importance into knowing what colleges professional players attended????? For that matter..are you REALLY surprised I wouldn't know where pro baseball players went to college when I am espousing the idea of professional sports being too important in our society????
quote:You, like Orlando, are hell bent on being right and refuse to listen. That's ok, people do that all the time.
You see...there you go again. Too bad you can't have a civil discussion without getting "personal" when people do not happen to agree with your point of view. Do not assume I don't "listen" just because I don't agree with you. Listening isn't defined as "accepting". If YOU had been listening to ME you would understand that the point isn't to bend one to one's will here.
I have apologized for posting something that you took as an insult and ludicrous. I have TRIED to explain. I have answered your questions (you know..I couldn't tell you 10 types of military aircraft EITHER without googling...sorry....female moron here, guess I can't have an opinion on the military if I can't name those without googling)...I know for a FACT that you are out to WIN an argument...when I am interested in discussing without trying to CHANGE your mind. Do you SERIOUSLY think ANYONE would even TRY to change your mind when you take into consideration you are former military AND your son plays ball at West Point? I know for a fact that trying to discuss with YOU is ludicrous. If "googling" instead of knowing off the top of my head is your PROOF of victory...then I want YOU as opposing counsel some day. My QUESTION was whether West Point allows buyouts for non-athletes for goodness sakes!!!!! YOU are the one who has to have a person who questions "jump thru your hoops" before you'll answer. YOU are the one who wanted lists of performers!!!! And when I gave it to you...you resorted to adding in yet ANOTHER criteria (had to know it off the top of my head rather than google)..and then you say "I REFUSE TO LISTEN?????"
Thanks for proving what we are dealing with here: Your rules didn't work for you...so you changed them.....sound familiar????
To quote CPLZ "You shot your own argument in the foot with that one".
If baseball talent blossomed suddenly during a cadet's junior or senior year, I would be closer to understanding your justification. Prior to that, a cadet has the option of leaving the Academies without a commtiment to serve. Given the goal of a professional baseball career, a player certainly has the option of attending any one of a number of fine universities with strong baeball programs.
I certainly see that attending a service Academy is a priviledge; priviledges hold responsibilites.
I'm curious about this benefit to the military of "millions of dollars of free PR and advertising". As this website is the only place I've heard of the Academy grad as minor leaguer (and I tend to pay attention to Things Baseball), I might suggest their ad campaign is ineffective.
----
Your snide comment to luvbb about having to research singers and their colleges was inappropriate. People interested in performance artists would know that information and would not know what college any given pro ballplayer attended. Being more interested in sport does not make your arguement stronger.
------
Perhaps you are unaware of the contracted tours of duty extended in Iraq at the dictate of the military. Breach? Then I guess that isn't actually happening.
-------
"You, like Orlando, are hell bent on being right and refuse to listen. That's ok, people do that all the time."
Oh, we're well aware of that. Here we have the pot lecturing the kettle on the subject of blackness.
I certainly see that attending a service Academy is a priviledge; priviledges hold responsibilites.
I'm curious about this benefit to the military of "millions of dollars of free PR and advertising". As this website is the only place I've heard of the Academy grad as minor leaguer (and I tend to pay attention to Things Baseball), I might suggest their ad campaign is ineffective.
----
Your snide comment to luvbb about having to research singers and their colleges was inappropriate. People interested in performance artists would know that information and would not know what college any given pro ballplayer attended. Being more interested in sport does not make your arguement stronger.
------
Perhaps you are unaware of the contracted tours of duty extended in Iraq at the dictate of the military. Breach? Then I guess that isn't actually happening.
-------
"You, like Orlando, are hell bent on being right and refuse to listen. That's ok, people do that all the time."
Oh, we're well aware of that. Here we have the pot lecturing the kettle on the subject of blackness.
cpzl your support for a cadet pursuing another career is admirable, but your logic is a mess
tho I'll retract when I see my first
"Be ALL YOU CAN BE ... a switch hitting 1B" commercial
a guy who expresses aspirations to be a pro athelete during the application process would never even sniff an Academy appointment
tho I'll retract when I see my first
"Be ALL YOU CAN BE ... a switch hitting 1B" commercial
a guy who expresses aspirations to be a pro athelete during the application process would never even sniff an Academy appointment
quote:Hey, if the military is going to use ATHLETES to their advantage in the PR department for "morale and honor" (according to EH)....then they sure as heck are missing out on a gold pile by overlooking performing artists. Who do the majority of our youth look up to and revere? Athletes and performing artists.
Have you ever heard of the USO, And Bob Hope. Google It.
They are sent overseas to boost morale, and they are Honored to do it.
They use the Military Musicians most of the time.
These Military Musicians travel with the USO tour.
They are also trained as Rifleman, Field Artillary and the such.
Not one Soldier has ever complained about there Assignment's.
EH
quote:Have you ever heard of the USO, And Bob Hope. Google It.
They are sent overseas to boost morale, and they are Honored to do it.
They use the Military Musicians most of the time.
These Military Musicians travel with the USO tour.
They are also trained as Rifleman, Field Artillary and the such.
First off...Bob Hope and his tour were NOT academy grads or even servicement for that matter. They were volunteers who took it upon themselves to be morale boosters. And yes, there are military musicians. Heck...there are military BASEBALL TEAMS (google it)....hmmmm, now there is a novel concept.
http://www.uso.org/
Look it up, Yes it is Voluntary service to some entertainer's.
But not to the people who put on the show.
Welcome to The USO
The USO is a private, nonprofit organization whose mission is to support the troops by providing morale, welfare and recreation-type services to our men and women in uniform. The original intent of Congress — and enduring style of USO delivery — is to represent the American people by extending a touch of home to the military. The USO currently operates more than 130 centers worldwide, including ten mobile canteens located in the continental United States and overseas. Overseas centers are located in Germany, Italy, the United Arab Emirates, Japan, Qatar, Korea, Afghanistan, Guam, and Kuwait. Service members and their families visit USO centers more than 5.3 million times each year. The USO is the way the American public supports the troops.
Look it up, Yes it is Voluntary service to some entertainer's.
But not to the people who put on the show.
Welcome to The USO
The USO is a private, nonprofit organization whose mission is to support the troops by providing morale, welfare and recreation-type services to our men and women in uniform. The original intent of Congress — and enduring style of USO delivery — is to represent the American people by extending a touch of home to the military. The USO currently operates more than 130 centers worldwide, including ten mobile canteens located in the continental United States and overseas. Overseas centers are located in Germany, Italy, the United Arab Emirates, Japan, Qatar, Korea, Afghanistan, Guam, and Kuwait. Service members and their families visit USO centers more than 5.3 million times each year. The USO is the way the American public supports the troops.
Eh...what can I say? Is it a military strategy to "confound, confuse, conquer and destroy" someone with an opposing view point???
For that matter....it was CPZL who said:
No, there are not options to personel for singing. Why would there be? The service cannot use this to their advantage the same way.
Not me....I was saying that they SHOULD use performers for their positive PR. If they are going to give exemptions to athletes..do it for performers as well.
And CPZL says that "I" am hellbent on not listening and being right??????
For that matter....it was CPZL who said:
No, there are not options to personel for singing. Why would there be? The service cannot use this to their advantage the same way.
Not me....I was saying that they SHOULD use performers for their positive PR. If they are going to give exemptions to athletes..do it for performers as well.
And CPZL says that "I" am hellbent on not listening and being right??????
As I said Before, I understand Your's, Orlando's, and other's point of View.
And it is great that we can discuss this here.
Do you understand my point of view.
EH
And it is great that we can discuss this here.
Do you understand my point of view.
EH
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
Oh, we're well aware of that. Here we have the pot lecturing the kettle on the subject of blackness.
and let's add Orlando's tag line...
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not
one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." --- Terry Pratchett
huh...
Bulldog 19....I wanted to thank you for explaining some principles in your last post. It was informative. Thanks.
What does bringing up the USO have to do with the discussion?
Bee>, you are funny.
I agree, there is a matter of opinion on both sides and opinions should be repsected.
Getting back to the original discussion, I still can't see how "special circumstances" includes baseball.
Good for morale? Go take 1000.00 out of the bank and buy 100 ten dollar phone cards. That boosts morale. Or send DVD copies of the World Series to the bases.
I keep thinking of Pat Tillman, he GAVE UP a lucrative sports career to go to Afghanistan.
Bee>, you are funny.
I agree, there is a matter of opinion on both sides and opinions should be repsected.
Getting back to the original discussion, I still can't see how "special circumstances" includes baseball.
Good for morale? Go take 1000.00 out of the bank and buy 100 ten dollar phone cards. That boosts morale. Or send DVD copies of the World Series to the bases.
I keep thinking of Pat Tillman, he GAVE UP a lucrative sports career to go to Afghanistan.
quote:Bee>, you are funny.
I agree TPM...I'm having fun "visualizing" that commercial!
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
Oh, we're well aware of that. Here we have the pot lecturing the kettle on the subject of blackness.
and let's add Orlando's tag line...
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not
one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." --- Terry Pratchett
huh...
Oh, for heaven's sake. I infer by that that you are under the impression that anyone not agreeing with your take on the situation and policy is displaying ignorance. Such arrogance would fit with a commitment that is self-defined.
My son enlisted in the Army at West Point to lead the brave men and women of this country into battle at risk of his own life. Pat Tillman had already made millions, and when one of his young teammates wanted to enlist with him, Tillmans advice was to make his money in pro ball first and then serve.
Please do not make light of the comittment which I in the past and my son now have made for sport of your argument.
Condemning young men for wanting to pursue the same dreams that your sons have is a double standard. We don't ask anything of you, but are willing to lay down our life for your freedom.
Bring that up next time you want to talk about what is fair and unfair, and don't pretend to stand up for those already in service to their country if you have never served. It's easy to have an opinion from the comfort of your easy chair. It's quite another matter to sign on the dotted line and be willing to pay the ultimate price. It goes to a whole new level when you stand behind your principles and watch your son take up the mantle of burden and risk.
My son wants to play professional baseball. If he doesn't get his wish, he goes to war to defend our country. Stand beside him or go to hell, your choice.
Please do not make light of the comittment which I in the past and my son now have made for sport of your argument.
Condemning young men for wanting to pursue the same dreams that your sons have is a double standard. We don't ask anything of you, but are willing to lay down our life for your freedom.
Bring that up next time you want to talk about what is fair and unfair, and don't pretend to stand up for those already in service to their country if you have never served. It's easy to have an opinion from the comfort of your easy chair. It's quite another matter to sign on the dotted line and be willing to pay the ultimate price. It goes to a whole new level when you stand behind your principles and watch your son take up the mantle of burden and risk.
My son wants to play professional baseball. If he doesn't get his wish, he goes to war to defend our country. Stand beside him or go to hell, your choice.
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:
Condemning young men for wanting to pursue the same dreams that your sons have is a double standard. We don't ask anything of you, but are willing to lay down our life for your freedom.
Bring that up next time you want to talk about what is fair and unfair, and don't pretend to stand up for those already in service to their country if you have never served. It's easy to have an opinion from the comfort of your easy chair. It's quite another matter to sign on the dotted line and be willing to pay the ultimate price. It goes to a whole new level when you stand behind your principles and watch your son take up the mantle of burden and risk.
My son wants to play professional baseball. If he doesn't get his wish, he goes to war to defend our country. Stand beside him or go to hell, your choice.
Your comments are definetly uncalled for. People are entitled to their opinions, it's comments like you have made above that makes the whole thing harder to understand.
My first question was and still is, why should pro baseball be a special circumstance to get out of a commitment, any commitment?
My son made an agreement with his school, he would show up for class, maintain a certain GPA, and show up for practice and games, in exchange he would get his college education paid for. If this didn't happen, or he changed his mind, he would lose his scholarhip. I expected him to live up to his commitment and agreement. I did not expect him to ask the coach if he could have a year off to do something else then come back and play. Do you understand that analogy.
Second question. Does that happen in the service academies? If they do not play baseball do they lose their scholarhips?
TPM, Orlando, luvbb,
With all do Respect.
You did question Young Officers Commitment to there Obligation, And there commitment to there Country.
And I did not care for what you implied.
You can say if you want that you were not questioning there Loyalty.
But I did not read it that way from what you have written.
You all have know idea the Officers involved, and what there commitment is are will be in the future.
Do you understand my point of view now???
EH
With all do Respect.
You did question Young Officers Commitment to there Obligation, And there commitment to there Country.
And I did not care for what you implied.
You can say if you want that you were not questioning there Loyalty.
But I did not read it that way from what you have written.
You all have know idea the Officers involved, and what there commitment is are will be in the future.
Do you understand my point of view now???
EH
Eh...for SOME reason you seem to be unable to distinguish between questioning a POLICY and a personal attack. WE UNDERSTAND FULLY that these young men are not breaking any rules....but we are questioning the POLICY. Yes, there has been name calling, personal attacks and questioning of motives. I suggest you re-read the thread and use an objective viewpoint this time.
hint: "Go to hell" might be a clue
hint: "Go to hell" might be a clue
quote:And THIS is why we question the policy. Defending our country is #2 on the list and apparently the academies/military are A-ok with it.
Yes they are, A-ok with it.
Now I'm going to go beat my brains out against a Brick wall.
Maybe it will understand my point of view.
EH
Well luvbb, you did question loyalty and commitment.
I've read and Reread this post.
And thats the conclusion that I come away with.
You now question are militaries motive's.
How disloyal is that.
EH
I've read and Reread this post.
And thats the conclusion that I come away with.
You now question are militaries motive's.
How disloyal is that.
EH
EH,
Your point of view has always been understood, go back and read my posts.
Questioning military motives is DISLOYAL? Where did you come up with that one?
I never said anything about the young man or any young men regarding them being nothing but fine young men.
I was trying to make a point about commitments. When is it ok to put off commitment for ANYTHING and when is it not ok? Orlando and luvbb have brought up good points in the discussion, asking questions that are not answered. Is playing baseball an exception?
What is the military POLICY for not keeping commitments? At sons school it's no more $$$.
Before you beat your head against the wall, I asked and have asked over and over again. Why should playing pro baseball be a special circumstance. I don't want to hear about morale booster and it's a good recruiting tool.
Can you answer that question?
Your point of view has always been understood, go back and read my posts.
Questioning military motives is DISLOYAL? Where did you come up with that one?
I never said anything about the young man or any young men regarding them being nothing but fine young men.
I was trying to make a point about commitments. When is it ok to put off commitment for ANYTHING and when is it not ok? Orlando and luvbb have brought up good points in the discussion, asking questions that are not answered. Is playing baseball an exception?
What is the military POLICY for not keeping commitments? At sons school it's no more $$$.
Before you beat your head against the wall, I asked and have asked over and over again. Why should playing pro baseball be a special circumstance. I don't want to hear about morale booster and it's a good recruiting tool.
Can you answer that question?
quote:Eh...for SOME reason you seem to be unable to distinguish between questioning a POLICY and a personal attack. WE UNDERSTAND FULLY that these young men are not breaking any rules....
With this statement alone, you question there commitment an loyalty.
By saying there not breaking any rules,
But for unhonorable reasons there using the rules to there advantage, Like there sherking there duty.
And that is why I will not agree with what you say.
EH
quote:Before you beat your head against the wall, I asked and have asked over and over again. Why should playing pro baseball be a special circumstance. I don't want to hear about morale booster and it's a good recruiting tool.
Can you answer that question?
Joint he club TPM....good luck! LOL
I said before TPM, and other's that I understand your Point of View.
Do you understand mine and other's point of view.
By questioning the Military's motive's, You seem to think that it is not right for them to allow this young Officer's a chance to follow there Dream's.
I disagree.
I think they know what there doing when it come's to PR.
And luvbb, The Statement was,
My son wants to play professional baseball. If he doesn't get his wish, he goes to war to defend our country. Stand beside him or go to hell, your choice.
Don't take it out of context.
EH
Do you understand mine and other's point of view.
By questioning the Military's motive's, You seem to think that it is not right for them to allow this young Officer's a chance to follow there Dream's.
I disagree.
I think they know what there doing when it come's to PR.
And luvbb, The Statement was,
My son wants to play professional baseball. If he doesn't get his wish, he goes to war to defend our country. Stand beside him or go to hell, your choice.
Don't take it out of context.
EH
quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
EH,
Your point of view has always been understood, go back and read my posts.
Questioning military motives is DISLOYAL? Where did you come up with that one?
I never said anything about the young man or any young men regarding them being nothing but fine young men.
I was trying to make a point about commitments. When is it ok to put off commitment for ANYTHING and when is it not ok? Orlando and luvbb have brought up good points in the discussion, asking questions that are not answered. Is playing baseball an exception?
What is the military POLICY for not keeping commitments? At sons school it's no more $$$.
Before you beat your head against the wall, I asked and have asked over and over again. Why should playing pro baseball be a special circumstance. I don't want to hear about morale booster and it's a good recruiting tool.
Can you answer that question?
TPM, let me take a stab at your question about commitment...
First you asked about "if they (in reference to SA ballplayers) didn't play baseball, would they lose thier scholarship?" NO. Why? Because they are not there on a baseball scholarship.
Second, you ask about "putting off commitment for ANYTHING"... in the case of Nick Hill and his teammate (sorry name eludes me ATM) neither one of them are putting their commitment aside. Instead, they are serving as recruiters for the United States Army. That is their commitment. Nowhere does it say that a West Point graduate (nor Annapolis grad nor AFA grad) must go to Iraq or other overseas combat zone. It doesn't say it.
Clearing up?
quote:quote:
Eh...for SOME reason you seem to be unable to distinguish between questioning a POLICY and a personal attack. WE UNDERSTAND FULLY that these young men are not breaking any rules....
With this statement alone, you question there commitment an loyalty.
By saying there not breaking any rules,
But for unhonorable reasons there using the rules to there advantage, Like there sherking there duty.
WHAT?????!!!!!! Now I know what it is like dealing with bureaucratic double-talk. Of COURSE they are using the rules to their advantage. Is that the cadets' fault???? NOOOOOOOO....THAT is one of the reasons we are questioning the RULES, why they are how they are...and if they should be changed or altered given all the circumstances we laid out. Questions have been asked and "shirked" by some posters on this thread. Not too many straight answers except by Bulldog in this thread...which are appreciated. And then when we present an alternative view and are told "if we don't stand behind him"....we are told to "go to hell". All your talk about "honor"....does it not apply to common everyday courtesy?
And..you conveniently left out the last few words of my post when you posted it above.....the part where I say:
"We understand fully these young men are not breaking any rules...but we are questioning the POLICY".
How can that be any clearer????
quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
My first question was and still is, why should pro baseball be a special circumstance to get out of a commitment, any commitment?
They do not get out of anything, the Army chooses then to use them in a different capacity, one which is favorable to both the Army and the Cadet. This agreement is established before attendance is accepted. A rifle is not the only good use of a soldier.
My son made an agreement with his school, he would show up for class, maintain a certain GPA, and show up for practice and games, in exchange he would get his college education paid for. If this didn't happen, or he changed his mind, he would lose his scholarhip. I expected him to live up to his commitment and agreement. I did not expect him to ask the coach if he could have a year off to do something else then come back and play. Do you understand that analogy.
Your son may be a fine young man, I don't know, but to try and compare the lifestyle and commitment, just through the academic years, is quite frankly, absurd.
Second question. Does that happen in the service academies? If they do not play baseball do they lose their scholarhips?
Everyone at a service academy is on scholarship regardless of athletics.
CPLZ, Said stand beside him, Are Go to hell.
So are you going to stand beside him, Your choice.
There's no Double talk on my part.
I'm flat out saying, that your questioning these young Officers Commitment and Loyalty to there Country.
Is that plain and simple enough for you.
EH
So are you going to stand beside him, Your choice.
There's no Double talk on my part.
I'm flat out saying, that your questioning these young Officers Commitment and Loyalty to there Country.
Is that plain and simple enough for you.
EH
quote:My son wants to play professional baseball. If he doesn't get his wish, he goes to war to defend our country. Stand beside him or go to hell, your choice.
CPLZ, Said stand beside him, Are Go to hell.
So are you going to stand beside him, Your choice.
*************************
Well Eh..that depends...are we standing beside him on the baseball field or on the battlefield. The latter situation, definetly YES (altho, saying that from cushy armchair, I doubt I'll be believed)....on the ballfield? I don't think any of our boys need us to stand beside them there, especially one's with Academy educations.
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
EH,
Your point of view has always been understood, go back and read my posts.
Questioning military motives is DISLOYAL? Where did you come up with that one?
I never said anything about the young man or any young men regarding them being nothing but fine young men.
I was trying to make a point about commitments. When is it ok to put off commitment for ANYTHING and when is it not ok? Orlando and luvbb have brought up good points in the discussion, asking questions that are not answered. Is playing baseball an exception?
What is the military POLICY for not keeping commitments? At sons school it's no more $$$.
Before you beat your head against the wall, I asked and have asked over and over again. Why should playing pro baseball be a special circumstance. I don't want to hear about morale booster and it's a good recruiting tool.
Can you answer that question?
TPM, let me take a stab at your question about commitment...
First you asked about "if they (in reference to SA ballplayers) didn't play baseball, would they lose thier scholarship?" NO. Why? Because they are not there on a baseball scholarship.
Second, you ask about "putting off commitment for ANYTHING"... in the case of Nick Hill and his teammate (sorry name eludes me ATM) neither one of them are putting their commitment aside. Instead, they are serving as recruiters for the United States Army. That is their commitment. Nowhere does it say that a West Point graduate (nor Annapolis grad nor AFA grad) must go to Iraq or other overseas combat zone. It doesn't say it.
Clearing up?
Did anyone ever say they had to go to Iraq?
Yes, Bulldog, you are clearing things up, without malice or argument. If that is serving their country by way of promoting the academies and deemed acceptable, then thats it. They have not put off their commitment.
BTW, my brother made a commitment to the Naval reserve, got his engineering degree paid for by the Navy and served his duty flying helicopters into Nam to pick up wounded. It wasn't what he wanted to do but he did it. My father also made an agreement with the US government and earned his engineering degree and then served his time in the Air Force during WW2, he was to be assigned to a special team that designed the B52 that dropped the bomb. It wasn't what he really wanted to do, but he did it.
You are a smart young man.
quote:There's no Double talk on my part.
I'm flat out saying, that your questioning these young Officers Commitment and Loyalty to there Country.
Is that plain and simple enough for you.
EH
Sure is Eh! It is plain that after 5 pages of dialogue that you simply don't understand what any of us are trying to say.
luvbb, and other's I'm not here to defend the Military and there Policy's.
I am here to defend these young Officers and there motive's for wanting to persue a career in baseball.
As I said it's not a bad thing.
Embrace it.
And by the way CPLZ, I never Served.
It does not mean I'm any less concerned about a Soldier's Welfare.
EH
I am here to defend these young Officers and there motive's for wanting to persue a career in baseball.
As I said it's not a bad thing.
Embrace it.
And by the way CPLZ, I never Served.
It does not mean I'm any less concerned about a Soldier's Welfare.
EH
luvbb, Your on those same 5 pages.
Do you understand anybody else's point of view.
EH
Do you understand anybody else's point of view.
EH
