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Shift, Swing, Hip Turn

Q Quincy1,000+ posts
Shift can be either weight shift or stride

Swing is that moment where the bat is set in motion to the ball.

Hip turn is the final addition of circular motion increasing bat speed.

Video Analysis

Joe Dimaggio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr5FEomvZ8A

Swing - 01
Hip Turn - 01.7

Babe Ruth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1tgPPlqDtI&feature=related

Swing - 01
Hip Turn - 02

Lou Gehrig

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3nA_T1iv8k&feature=related

Swing - 04
Hip Turn - 04.7

Stan Musial

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLYVDCEz_yg&feature=related

Swing - 02
Hip Turn - 02.5

Mickey Mantle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etSfBwcNpII&feature=related

Swing - 02
Hip Turn - 03
Last edited {1}
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I INshocker100+ posts
Quincy: Did you post this just to bait me? Eek

First, stride and weight shift are NOT the same thing.

Second, as stated before your lower body and hips are what pull the bat through at maximum velocity. If hands go through first...no bat speed.

All of these videos show the lower half starting first and then the bat going through the zone
Last edited by INshocker
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
Here is a video posted by one of our members on another baseball site. I'll add it for discussion.



Quincy, when you say "swing," how are you defining that term? Are you addressing hand/arm movement?

I used to always say, "Hands first, hands last." By "hands first," I meant that in some way the hands have to move into what is now termed "connection." By "hands last," I meant that the hips have fired and the hands/shoulders follow.

Arguments?
Last edited by CoachB25
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
Yes, I define 'swing' as the 'moment' when the hands and arms fire to the ball.

There is no doubt that many other muscles are also involved, but I try to keep it simple.

Lower body = stride or weight shift

Upper body = swing

Middle body = hip or waist turn

I liked the term 'body pivot' but that isn't simple enough in my view.

A Griffey clip would be a great demonstration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t26oVYHGXH4&feature=related
Last edited by Quincy
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
Quincy, as you know, I don't agree with some of these ideas. When I think of the swing, I see the hands makes those movements you see, then I see them seek an area of "connection" and ride that point for a couple of frames along with the shoulder area. I see the hands get locked, the hips fire, then the upper body come along. I don't see much pause in this process but do note that there is point where the hips are ahead of the hands/shoulders. Finally, I see the hands leaving connection. There are many terms for this and some used in ways not intended by the creators of those terms. I wish I had the ability to post clips because I have some clips of side by sides of MLB players from front views and side views that would lend themselves to this argument.

BTW, I have a friend with his own server. Maybe I need to have him over, grill some brats and talk him into some free space.

Oh, if you look at the Upton clip provide above, you see the hips actually start to open prior to the front heel hitting the ground. Thoughts?
Last edited by CoachB25
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
Concerning the front heel as compared to the opening hip, this is the weak front side that I have mentioned previously.

It has been my view that the active or control phase of the swing ends as soon as the bat enters the zone.

From that point through contact, the next active phase is the slow down in the follow through.

Weight shifts, hands fire, hips turn.

Weight shift is obvious in that body weight is moving forwards to contact.

Hands fire to extension and contact. Once the hands and triceps fire, their job is done.

Hip turn is the shortest fastest phase in the swing. It is the axis turning or the pivot allowing the external weight to speed up in its path to contact.

This brings us back to the expression 'strong hands'. It takes strong hands to hold on to the bat at the speed we have generated.

It's a very fluid motion (smooth swing).

IN,

Watch for the hand flex, then see the hip start to open into the turn. One expression that we have seen here is the 'go' move. When the hands flex the 'go' precedes the hip.

As an example, when a batter checks his swing, the hips are not turning.

This is another reason why I am not a fan of the check swing. I would rather lengthen the 'See the ball" phase and at the same time minimize the 'Hit the ball" phase.
C Coachric1,000+ posts
We shouldn't think heel plant, but foot plant, as the most effective way is the ball of the foot planting. Thats why his front side is not week, because he isn't swinging from his heels. His hips and just about all hitters hips move or rotate before the hands come thru. Its the only way it works.
KISS, as has been mentioned many times here over the years. No need to dissect what is easily seen and known.
I INshocker100+ posts
CoachB: I can't pause the video of Upton, but are his hips opening before the heel lands or are they just going forward, then as soon as the heel hits they begin to open? It all happens so quickly it is hard to tell which comes first without being able to pause and go frame by frame.

It seems to me that since Upton is on his toe, when he opens the foot up and sits the heel down, it may cause his front leg to begin to open, not necessarily his hip. His backside, from what I can see without frame by frame, definitely does not fire until the heel is down.

Let me know what you guys see with that front side: are the hips starting before the heel lands or does the angle his foot goes make his front leg change angles; not his hip.
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
When I'm observing video on a site, I put the cursor on some portion of a player's body. For example, front hipline and just below belt to have a couple of reference points. Then, I take a look. It seems that the hips are starting open before the heel hits. That is not something different than most MLB hitters and I don't think it makes them weak. I believe that if that forward movement is excessive then it becomes weeker. In viewing that on quicktime or RVP, that'd amount to about one frame at best from toe touch to heel plant. After you've put your cursor on his hipline, try putting it on his head. JMHO! Great discussion starting.
I INshocker100+ posts
I definitely agree it doesn't make the front side weaker. It all happens simultaneously. Also, once the actual swing starts, the hips stop coming forward; so IMO he hips aren't "floating."

When I was younger, I worked out with one of the head hitting instructors for what was then the Montreal Expos. At the time, I started on my toe (much like Upton, only higher). His response to me was the farther I am up on my toe, the farther the heel has to go before I was able to start my swing. This was part of my problem of getting my hands through on pitches inside. He wanted me to try to get off my toe if possible (which took many repetitions because that is a habit). When I did, I was able to get to pitches much easier and wait longer before "starting" my swing.

I think that the heel is kind what starts our swing to the extent that it has to be on the ground before we can start. I think for Upton, he times his pitches so that once the heel is on the way down, he is deciding whether or not he is swinging. I would like to see a video of him taking a pitch.
Last edited by INshocker
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
Weak front side infers that the weight is mainly on the back leg when the hands fire.

Strong front side infers that the weight is mainly on the front leg when the hands fire.

Kind of hints at differences in Linear vs Rotational Hitting.

Raises that dreaded one legged batter question.

Can a batter with one leg swing a bat?
I INshocker100+ posts
IMO, weak side infers there is a leak in the swing, ie your hips are leaking, causing you to lose power; instead of hitting against the front side.

Where in ANY good swing do you see the weight being on the front leg? You hit against the front leg. The weight should be distributed about 60/40. If you are hitting with the weight on the front foot, you cannot stay behind the baseball and drive it with power. Hitting with the weight forward is being fooled.

Even Ichiro and Robinson Cano, who look like the float, hit against the front side. Once their heel lands, and they begin their swing, all of their weight stops shifting.
Last edited by INshocker
I INshocker100+ posts
Quincy: He most certainly does not start his hands with his weight on the front foot. It is hard to put into words how this all works because I am not big into all of the different hitting philosophies. I do know your front leg stays solid, and you drive your back side into the front...this is what creates the torque to hit home run. They hit homeruns with their back foot off the ground because of the torque created...not because they were on their front foot.
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
You must have been a star in the debate club.

Does this mean that the 60/40 weight ballance does not hold true in all cases?

If his back foot is in the air at contact, your theory loses credibility as authoritative.

As a matter of fact, he does start his swing as his back foot starts to rise so his weight is all front side.

Torque is not at issue since there is no external force to center.

Notice that his hands start forward before hip turn.
I INshocker100+ posts
Quincy: His weight is not on the front side: Again, it is being push into the front side...but when you state hitting off of your front foot, I picture lunging or reaching.

60/40 is a nice balanced position, IMO..if you were hitting with the weight on the front foot, the upper body would be over the front foot as well...I believe we both can agree his upper body is behind his front leg.

Still, I believe you can ask any person on this board and they will tell you it goes hips and then hands.

Also, I don't understand your torque statement....can you please clarify?
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Quincy:
Concerning the front heel as compared to the opening hip, this is the weak front side that I have mentioned previously.

It has been my view that the active or control phase of the swing ends as soon as the bat enters the zone.

From that point through contact, the next active phase is the slow down in the follow through.

Weight shifts, hands fire, hips turn.

Weight shift is obvious in that body weight is moving forwards to contact.

Hands fire to extension and contact. Once the hands and triceps fire, their job is done.

Hip turn is the shortest fastest phase in the swing. It is the axis turning or the pivot allowing the external weight to speed up in its path to contact.

This brings us back to the expression 'strong hands'. It takes strong hands to hold on to the bat at the speed we have generated.

It's a very fluid motion (smooth swing).

IN,

Watch for the hand flex, then see the hip start to open into the turn. One expression that we have seen here is the 'go' move. When the hands flex the 'go' precedes the hip.

As an example, when a batter checks his swing, the hips are not turning.

This is another reason why I am not a fan of the check swing. I would rather lengthen the 'See the ball" phase and at the same time minimize the 'Hit the ball" phase.




The hips SHOULD have started the turn in the check swing, just not the punch at the end (or fire).
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Quincy:
Torque is a turning or twisting external force to center.

In the swing, all force comes from center exerted externally in a circular motion.

Some people think that the 'conservation of angular momentum' is what causes bat speed. It is this misperception that gave rise to the idea of torque in the swing.




Quincy,

Everything that is "twisting or turning" has some sort of center. You can argue where that center is and what is causing said item to "twist or turn" around it, but it does have a center.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Quincy:
The two sentences create a non-statement.

If the weight is on the front leg, it is on the front leg.

If the back foot is off the ground and the front foot is on the ground, the entire body weight is supported by the front foot.




Not necessarily. You can stand on one foot and make much of your weight come off of your foot by starting to jump, but not leaving the ground. Also, even if you do make a complete jump, the weight on your foot will start to decrease all the way up to the time you leave the ground. This is also the case of Hank Aaron and Chipper Jones, the weight is leaving the back foot and being switched to the front foot, but not all since much of the weight/momentum is being used to hit the ball and swing the bat, so much will be going toward the direction of the hit at contact.
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
In the stride or weight shift the front hip has a tendency to open towards the pitcher.

This is not the hip turn in the swing.

Granderson is not a good example because he exaggerates the hip opening on almost every pitch.

The last two responses, though rather Aquinian, border on the absurd. The hopping response was particularly absurd.

That phase of the conversation was based on Clemente's swing in the video. I guess by insinuation at some point in the at bat, he was weightless.
Last edited by Quincy
I INshocker100+ posts
Quincy: Every single video that I have shown to prove my point has gotten the "He's not a good example" response from you. Pujols is a freak and Granderson exaggerates....couldn't it just be you are wrong? I will find another video for you of a check swing.

Btw..you never told me where the center of gravity is on contact.

I am still dumbfounded after all of the videos we have provided that you do not see hips moving and then hands.
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Quincy:
In the stride or weight shift the front hip has a tendency to open towards the pitcher.

This is not the hip turn in the swing.

Granderson is not a good example because he exaggerates the hip opening on almost every pitch.

The last two responses, though rather Aquinian, border on the absurd. The hopping response was particularly absurd.

That phase of the conversation was based on Clemente's swing in the video. I guess by insinuation at some point in the at bat, he was weightless.




Quincy,

Obviously the man is not weightless, just the amount of weight touching the ground. If you don't believe me, get on a scale and spring to your toes and see if the dial does not go below your bodyweight. As far as the hip opening in the stride, it isn't a tendency, it is done on purpose to wind the rubberband (core).
C Coachric1,000+ posts
Just because a hitters back foot is off the ground does not mean that his weight is completely over his front foot. Remember that he's in motion. If he stops, he will have to plant all of his weight onto his front side, but not during a swing in motion. What can't some of us see about the hips turning before the hands coming into the hitting zone? Its pretty simple and just seems as though some people like to change the language to show some new kind of smarts.
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coachric:
Just because a hitters back foot is off the ground does not mean that his weight is completely over his front foot. Remember that he's in motion. If he stops, he will have to plant all of his weight onto his front side, but not during a swing in motion.


Another proponent of the weightless floating batter?

quote:
What can't some of us see about the hips turning before the hands coming into the hitting zone?


It isn't about where they end up, it's about when they start.

quote:
Its pretty simple and just seems as though some people like to change the language to show some new kind of smarts.


By not addressing the issues spoken about, I agree that some seek to change not only the language, but also the subject of the conversation.
Last edited by Quincy
G Gameth10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Quincy:
Torque is a turning or twisting external force to center.

In the swing, all force comes from center exerted externally in a circular motion.

Some people think that the 'conservation of angular momentum' is what causes bat speed. It is this misperception that gave rise to the idea of torque in the swing.


Torque is present in the swing. To say it isnt only shows us all that you really have no idea what you are talking about. Doe's the pelvis rotate durning the swing? Then there is torque.

Your several posts today not only prove you have no degree in physics but after looking at all your clips showing hips leading the way I begin to wonder if you are blind? I clearly see belt buckle begin to rotate before the hands launch. In fact in most of the clips, hands are clearly moving away from the plate as the bottom half is moving forward and pelvis begins to rotate.

I also like the topic of "hands fire." How do the hands fire? Strong hands? Does that mean that working out on your forarms would increase bat velocity? What fires the hands?
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
Ah, the 'torque' issue again.

If 'torque' is an external force moving to center, and the pelvis is the center, then there actually is a degree of torque exerted by the bat head on the pelvis in the swing.

The pelvis, being the center, cannot exert external force on itself to center.

Since you need a dose of physics

In general, a particle (the bat head in this case) moving in a circle experiences both angular acceleration and centripetal acceleration.

http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/physics/circ/node6.html

Strong forearms in conjunction with strong triceps would indeed increase one's ability to propel the bat head in the swing.
Last edited by Quincy
G Gameth10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Quincy:
Ah, the 'torque' issue again.

If 'torque' is an external force moving to center, and the pelvis is the center, then there actually is a degree of torque exerted by the bat head on the pelvis in the swing.

The pelvis, being the center, cannot exert external force on itself to center.

Since you need a dose of physics

In general, a particle (the bat head in this case) moving in a circle experiences both angular acceleration and centripetal acceleration.

http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/physics/circ/node6.html

Strong forearms in conjunction with strong triceps would indeed increase one's ability to propel the bat head in the swing.



I believe the topic was torque, correct?

Now you need a biomechanics lesson I guess.

THE PELVIS IS NOT CENTER! The sacrum/spine is!

Force would transfer up the leg into the acetabulum of the pelvis. From there it would use the pelvic bones (Ala) as the lever arm applying torque to the sacrum.

Since there is rotation in the swing, there is torque, unless you are a wizard or something using magic.

This topic discussion can go nowhere though if you really believe the "bat" is generating the force on the spine. Once again, maybe we are using magic.

The only force the bat creates is when it hits the ball and when the player begins the load phase and torque is created between the top and bottom half. Call it torso-pelvic separation if you like. Either way, the bat did not start first. Its a dead piece of wood! All the clips prove this but you refuse to see it for some reason.

I really think you are just trying to ruffle feathers with this nonsense.


BTW, your comment on the strong hands is pure opinion that has been disproved in studies. Forearm strength plays no part in bat velocity.
Last edited by Gameth
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
Actually, the topic is swing styles.

I engaged your mention of torque. Explained what torque is, only to have you take me on a voyage of minutia.

I agree that the arms generate a degree of force to center, but the bat head in motion at distance creates more torque than the arms.

The idea of the legs actively transmitting force to center in the swing is quite a stretch.

If we engage in biomechanical minutia, we will reach a major level of pettiness and complexity that has no value in the discussion. It is on a par with a discussion of opposing muscles maintaining balance while walking, though we make no conscious effort.

Let's try keeping the discussion on a level conducive to communication and clarity.
G Gameth10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Quincy:
Actually, the topic is swing styles.



The idea of the legs actively transmitting force to center in the swing is quite a stretch.



That must be how Tiger Woods suffered stress fractures to his leg as a result of his golf swing and the violent extension at his front knee at contact.

It seems that you have a problem understanding what others are trying to say when they challenge your "beliefs."


BTW, you mentioned torque and angular mumbo jumbo before I did.

Without looking back I think it was something about torque needing an external force to be created.
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