Should he go to a showcase?

But if he is not at 100% will it hurt him more than help?

He has the whole summer of 2012 to showcase when he is fully healthy and has a season of facing live batters. 6'6" and throwing 89 will get plenty of notice so don't rush it. My two cents worth is wait till summer.

That's sort of our feelings too but he is very, very anxious to start, after reading the posts on here he feels that he is way behind and he wants to make up for lost time.

Do not take my opinion as gospel because it does not come from experience in your particular injury/recovery situation.
My son is a RHP and almost 6'5" and growing, so they are close physically. He throws in the mid 80's and has hit 88. We assumed he would be seen playing for a state championship team and did not go the exposure route. Now he is a senior and we are way behind in the game without him being committed. I am now a firm believer that the way of thinking we used was wrong, and that you need to get your son out there to be seen as much as possible in his junior year unless he is considered a "stud". Even then the exposure is not going to hurt.

However, with your son not being 100%, I'd seriously consider not having him comeback too soon and risk injury. Furthermore, if he has a bad outing I'd think it might do more harm than good. It will certainly be a waste of time and money, and might even knock his confidence. Remember many good players attend these events, so he might be facing some formidable kids and not have his stuff. The scouts will not be overly concerned with X' & O's, because they are looking at mechanics among other things, but if he gets hammered, that will not be good.
For example a player from my sons school went to PG this past weekend and got hammered giving up 9 earned runs in 2/3 innings. He was not a strong pitcher mentally to begin with and had a fragile psyche. Now he is even more shaky mentally according to my son, and thinking about hanging up his glove. The point being your son needs to feel confident in his ability to pitch in addition to his physical condition. So give him time to fully recover, and most importantly make sure a top pitching coach looks at his mechanics to insure that was not the cause of his original arm/shoulder problems.

Good luck

I agree that if he is not 100%, he should wait until he is.

If he is not known, the first impression will be more damaging than if he is known and is making a recovery back to what they know he did before.

This is besides the potential injury question of trying to come back too soon and over throw.

Good Luck, enjoy the ride!

quote:

Originally posted by hokieone:
He has the whole summer of 2012 to showcase when he is fully healthy and has a season of facing live batters. 6'6" and throwing 89 will get plenty of notice so don't rush it. My two cents worth is wait till summer.

I am with hokieone on this one, never showcase unless in proper condition. It could hurt you more than help you. Use this time to fully recover from the injury with a good throwing program, conditioning, etc., so that he can play through spring, summer and fall. Find a good travel team for exposure next summer(the key here because of your location)and explore camp opportunities of programs that may be the right fit for him (academic and athletic). Make it a priority to get to a PG showcase for a good evaluation. Pro workout and tryouts are great for the experience to see what you need to work on.

Sometimes it's very confusing reading all that is posted here and the route taken by others. IMO, it's not what you do but if those choices are the right ones and seen in front of the right people at the right time.

He is very confident in his ability to perform and is throwing with no problems on the throwing program put together by his sports physical therapist, he did well when he did pitch in the summer, even when he was hurting, and had the good sense to shut himself down before he hurt himself. Now, with the throwing that he's doing, he feels like he is 100% but I guess what I don't understand is how do you know you are 100% if you're not actually in a game situation and is it that much different than practice pitching. I know he wouldn't do anything to physically hurt himself but, other than asking him how he feels how do we know if he's ready?

We are in a difficult situation geographically and very limited in that everything we do will involve pretty significant travel, adding to it our ignorance on the whole process makes it pretty overwheming.

You really odn't know until you throw to live batters.

FWIW, my pitcher sort of went through what your son did, he missed his sophmore fall due to some tendinitous, after therapy went through a proper throwing program and conditioning program then shut down until spring. I do know that our spring begins sooner than yours, so he didn't have to shut down for too long, so you do have that dilemma to consider.

Are they still playing fall ball up by you, how about a college showcase that may not cost that much?

No baseball now and probably nothing until April here! I don't know of any college showcases - how do you find them

Google , Baseball Showcase . Go to a local hitting facility and ask if they know any good ones ? Sometimes local colleges put on camps ( that are really showcase events ).

vtmom,

The most important recruiting time is the summer before Senior year, so your son has plenty of time and should as the other poster's stated make sure he is fully recovered. If you could find a local college showcase that would be low pressure and he could ease into things that would be terrific. But if not, then something shortly before school starts would work. He may have to travel south to find something with the weather factor. I will say this though. If he is six-six and can throw 89 consistantly, he could be here in TX where there are tons of great players and he would get noticed. So the whole thing is to get him out there definitely this coming summer. The larger, better program you are looking for, the further you have to cast the net. Good Luck!

vtmom,

You can ease your mind about being way behind and wanting to make up for lost time. Although you hear a lot about the few top-shelf players who commit early in their junior year, next summer is when most of the action will happen for the class of 2012.

Fear not. A player with your son's frame and velocity isn't behind. He might not be known yet, but he is not behind.

I fully agree with the posters who say not to showcase him until he is healthy.

One thing I'd add: You didn't say anything about his summer travel team. Does he have one? Does its coach have a strong record of sending players from your area to colleges your son would be interested in?

As a parent who doesn't really know the ropes, the single best thing you can do is get connected with a travel coach who does know which tournaments, showcases, and camps make sense for your son, his skill, and his goals. If he is already on a good travel team, you should be directing these questions to the coach.

You might want to PM Trhit: he knows northeast baseball real well and can advise you on suitable teams.

Good luck--and please update this thread as your son does get known.

One more thing I almost forgot TRHit is from that area I believe and possibly can help you via PM.

My son said , 6'6 throwing 89 , he can move into our basenemt and play with us in Georgia! We need another pitcher. Not to late to transfer ! Really with that frame , you are in great shape. I like the ideal about attending a smaller camp / showcase first. TPX has one in Jan in Flordia . Cheap airfare and 75 degrees ! Also , alot of Fla coaches .

The key for this young man is that time is on his side. Being a 2012 he has all of next summer and fall to be seen and seen when he is in tip top baseball shape

In my experience I have seen too many HS players return too early---not only do they not perform up to their true talent but they take the chance of injuring themselves.

Have him take his time so he can do it right.

I agree.

VTMOM

You have a PM

“how do we know if he's ready?”

The problem here is in order to make the all mighty dollar the showcase (baseball evolved ignorance) establishment does not care about or understand interval training timeline!

The day after the last summer game, pitchers should start an interval “sport specific “ training program where they slowly build up by going into complete training regression by making continual physiological gains weekly that will leave them in no condition to compete!

By participating in showcases, camps and games in the fall this never happens and they are in a continual train (work out somewhat) to detrain (I better rest to be ready for this event) timeline to mediocrity and then susceptible to injury from their injurious traditional mechanics.

When an athlete trains correctly all fall and winter with no breaks then Spring rolls around they are now completely ready!

Thank you everyone for the input, my head is spinning but it is all helpful!

Yardbird,

I really don't care whether pitchers want to shut down after summer.

However, I have to ask this question. Why do college programs play in the fall? Why do they hold camps in the off season? Why do professional players play in the fall and the winter leagues? Why do MLB clubs have instructs?

Also, would you describe a pitcher that ends up going early in the first round as taking the wrong approach if he plays beyond the summer?

Not saying you are wrong, but we can give hundreds of examples of those who did not follow your advice above. Did they take the wrong approach?

Scott Kazmir, Chad Billingsley, Matt Cain, John Danks, Gerritt Cole, Jameson Tallion, Shelby Miller, Nick Adenhart, etc. On the other hand, to be fair, we could name several who did not play after the summer season.

Also I take exception to your comments about "the all mighty dollar" and what exactly is "the showcase (baseball evolved ignorance) establishment"? Just to be clear, we are not part of any establishment.

BTW, would you describe those listed above as taking a "timeline to mediocrity"? Don't want to get involved in a discussion regarding traditional mechanics. That belongs in the pitching forum. I will say this... There is no reward without risk! It just doesn't ever happen in any baseball player. So I could say, playing it too safe will lead to mediocrity. Not to be confused with being stupid pertaining to the risk.

vtmom,

Your son sounds very interesting. However, not knowing the entire situation, I can't suggest what to do. Every situation is different. Can say this... If he is not ready please don't attend any event, including ours.

I would email his information to staff@perfectgame.org, to make sure we know who he is. This does not cost anything and it will make sure he is in the database. It can be very important.

PGStaff,

quote:

”I really don't care whether pitchers want to shut down after summer”

Shutting down has nothing to do with this subject! They should not shut down they should turn it on and I’m not talking about competitions because the way they perform their mechanics they are in a perpetual detraining state by having to take time off to recover having their bodies atrophy while having to do so.

quote:

"Why do college programs play in the fall?

Good question ? why do they? They should be training this has already been stated.
How many head or assistant coaches understand sports physiology training timeline?
From what I’ve seen not many, I wish they would take the appropriate steps to do so and by me suggesting that they do so should not cause the same reaction you have just displayed that keeps the statis quo.

quote:

Why do they hold camps in the off season?

To pay out stipends to their coaches. These participants should be in training regression and unable to show their wares. The NCAA has something to do with this improper timeline also.

quote:

Why do professional players play in the fall and the winter leagues?

They hardly play and are coddled by non credentialed professionals who have been doing the same thing that they did. Would you admit to this if you actually saw and realized it?

If after they turn biologically 19 and are now adults they should be in full shape within 2 years of aggressive training and then able to maintain and compete year round but since there are few sports physiologists running the show this training timeline morphs into an the anecdotal yard myth training timeline of rest and detraining that never gets any of them into maximal shape at any time during the year even during spring thru summer competitions.

quote:

Why do MLB clubs have instructs?

You tell me? no mechanical instructs happen! This is a fact, they are professionals who do what they want anyways. Instructs is a waste of time! The coaches are paid on year round contracts and are asked to participate during this dead period.
When an adult pitcher ends his last game of season he should immediately begin aggressive training and not be able to compete.

quote:

Also, would you describe a pitcher that ends up going early in the first round as taking the wrong approach if he plays beyond the summer?

If he is an adult he should then never shut it down unless he is injured, this is a physiological fact, do you understand this sports physiological tenet? I know the establishment does not.

quote:

”Not saying you are wrong”

How can you say this if it is the first time you have probably heard this? and the only reason I am answering you is because you asked me to and I am taking a chance here on being censored because you are an advertiser that this information goes against. I have been wanting to correct you on many falsities you have stated in the past but know what has happened in the past to others who speak their minds, especially when the truth is uttered that is opposite of evolved anecdotal belief.

quote:

"we can give hundreds of examples of those who did not follow your advice above. Did they take the wrong approach?

They took the lesser approach that leads to the results they have been all dealing with in regards to their athletic health that is reversible.

quote:

"I take exception to your comments about "the all mighty dollar" and what exactly is "the showcase (baseball evolved ignorance) establishment"

This is the way it has anecdotally evolved, I’m not against you making a dollar off of those who can afford you but believe you should be running your showcases in the summer only! Not in the fall and winter when these youth athletes should be in training regression. It is what it is, take it or leave it. Establishment ignorance is not just with the showcase orgs but rampant within all. IMO.

quote:

“? Just to be clear, we are not part of any establishment.”

You are as big a part of the anecdotal baseball establishment as every other organization and again I believe you have your place, just remember If none of your type organizations existed, all the College spots would still be filled easily and with all deserving kids.

quote:

"would you describe those listed above as taking a "timeline to mediocrity"

If these adults all trained “sport specifically” and correctly they would all be as good as they can possibly be is what I am saying, right now with the way they approach their training and mechanics they are not, again this is a fact not a guess.

quote:

“Don't want to get involved in a discussion regarding traditional mechanics.”

You can’t have it both ways by saying this and then saying what comes next!

quote:

I will say this... There is no reward without risk!

Then take off those damm batting helmets! This statement is as ridiculous as it comes when what I am talking about is reducing the risk through training or mechanics!

quote:

“It just doesn't ever happen in any baseball player.”

When it comes to controllable pitching mechanics or and especially training you could not be so wrong in your statement. All athletes attempt to reduce risk while still retaining maximal effort and you making this ridiculous argument is way below you from what I have read from you in the past.

quote:

“So I could say, playing it too safe will lead to mediocrity.”

Your statement here is correct but that’s not what I’m talking about.
I’m talking about the disruption in training timeline that you participate in!

quote:

“Not to be confused with being stupid pertaining to the risk”

If your pitching mechanics are injurious as proven in thousands of traditional pitchers every year what else would you call it, pitchers seriously injure them selves then return to the exact same way they performed previously because some prestigious organization run by orthopedic surgeon that does not understand what they are doing recommends that it is not the mechanics, it is the number of pitches they throw, this is a travesty that just keeps the OR’s full over and over. What’s the old saying about repetition and stupidity?

You run your showcases when these youth players are not in shape, is this the risk you speak of? How about the kids whom are training hard and feel they are missing something if they miss Peoria or Jupiter or camps and they are going thru training regression, do you think you can give a fair evaluation at this time? Not knowing their actual condition?

Again let me make the suggestion that you should run your showcases at the appropriate time during the summer when these youth athletes are at least in fair shape to show their true potential at that time.

Sincerely,

Lon Fullmer
Saddleback Valley baseball

Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo, we had direct examination, cross-examination, and now I guess we're on to re-direct...

Whew, glad I'm not in this one... (other than for my early, innocent, good for nothing advice to wait...)

Yardbird,

You seem to have invested a lot of time and energy into your positions. From what I read, you purport to know the path to ultimate baseball success while the "baseball establishment" does not. Instructs are a waste of time and camps are only held to line the pockets of instructors, if I read this right.

Pretty harsh...by the way, it's status quo, not statis.

Baseballdad1228,

quote:

“You seem to have invested a lot of time and energy into your positions’

My positions have been gathered after 40 years of coaching at every level and realizing nothing was changing and only getting worse. Since I have taken the course that I am now on things have changed for the better for my clients and only wish for you to think about what I am saying.

quote:

From what I read, you purport to know the path to ultimate baseball success while the "baseball establishment" does not

.

I was a part of the dogmatic baseball establishment thinking for over 30 years that was not working well for the athletes involved, I have made the change for the better.

quote:

“Instructs are a waste of time”

Most endeavors professional can be said the same when it comes to training and pitching mechanics but are slowly changing towards what I am talking about.
I had 12 kids just go through them again, what do you think they say?

quote:

“camps are only held to line the pockets of instructors”

Why else would Colleges perform this service with youth athletes?
I’ve been there and done that, I’m not lying to you and don’t believe the derogatory word you (line their pockets) used did I use. These assistant coaches do not get paid well and need these camps to help out. It is what it is, it is not necessary to pick athletes as it is believed to do and a distraction to the training timeline I am talking about.

quote:

“if I read this right”

You have not taken or read this right! Try seriousness next time

I always keep an open mind and work on learning all I can. Your positions are, in fact, only your opinion based on your baseball experiences. While you are entitled to them, they do not make you the final authority on sports training in baseball. You also launch them from one of the most condescending and cynical perches imaginable. It doesn't make you seem more intelligent, it just makes you appear pompous.

The baseball establishment is filled with knowledgable sports medicine staffs who utilize state-of-the-art training methods and procedures to maintain and advance the health of their pitchers. I trust them. Good luck training your guys.

Lon,

You sure went to a lot of work there. It's not really necessary to dissect every word.
I actually disagree with some of what you write, but I’ve seen you in action at the Pitching Forum and I’m a bit frightened by your extreme knowledge.

So rather than get into a long drawn out disagreement dealing with your last post, let me just point out a few things you have said here.

About colleges playing in the Fall you said… why do they? They should be training this has already been stated.
How many head or assistant coaches understand sports physiology training timeline?
From what I’ve seen not many.

So you know more than college coaches including some that are considered legends in the game?

About instructs you said… Instructs is a waste of time!

And you know more about this than the MLB organizations?

About Pro Ball Winter and Fall Baseball Leagues you said… They hardly play and are coddled by non credentialed professionals who have been doing the same thing that they did. Would you admit to this if you actually saw and realized it?

Without knowing for sure, I would bet you my right arm that I have not only seen more of this than you, but know much more about this than you do. Your not the only person who has been around for over 40 years.

About me you said… I am taking a chance here on being censored because you are an advertiser that this information goes against. I have been wanting to correct you on many falsities you have stated in the past but know what has happened in the past to others who speak their minds, especially when the truth is uttered that is opposite of evolved anecdotal belief.

You’re not taking any chances here. I would never want someone censored simply because they didn’t agree with what I say. I’ve said here very many times that I have been wrong and do make mistakes. How about you, you ever been wrong? Who are you to say that “I have been wanting to correct you on many falsities” Have at it, that is an absolute insult. What are these falsities you speak of? Speaking their minds? Are you shi**ing me. There have been people (competitors) come on here to try and discredit us, if that is what you mean. In several cases they have been discovered and revealed. And who exactly are you to claim falsity or try to correct anyone?

You also said… You are as big a part of the anecdotal baseball establishment as every other organization and again I believe you have your place, just remember If none of your type organizations existed, all the College spots would still be filled easily and with all deserving kids.

Yes, so why in the heck do these college coaches come to these events looking for players. Especially seeing they can fill their rosters with deserving kids? Yes, the rosters would be full except it might be with at least some different players.

When I mentioned risk vs reward you said… Then take off those damm batting helmets! This statement is as ridiculous as it comes!

Everyone including you knew what I was referring to. I’ll let others decide which statement is ridiculous.

Then after several comments regarding mechanics which still have not been well received here and very much unproven at the highest level, you said… Again let me make the suggestion that you should run your showcases at the appropriate time during the summer when these youth athletes are at least in fair shape to show their true potential at that time.

Well Lon, Had we done that Carl Crawford might be playing in the NFL. Jameson Tallion would have had to wait another year to be so well known nationally. Thousands of draft picks and college scholarships might have been different.

I do appreciate you signing your name. I respect that and I’m sure you’re a good baseball coach. But I learned a long time ago, that those who think they know everything are the ones who have the most to learn. I’ve never met the person who knows everything about baseball. That’s because that person does not exist. I seriously doubt that you are that person! BTW, the one thing that counts the most? RESULTS!

This is truly an interesting debate!!!

Do not be fooled by my avatar. I'm really not that stupid, just a bad gambler!

baseballdad1228,

quote:

‘I always keep an open mind and work on learning all I can”

When your head stops rolling around then this will be believed.

quote:

“Your positions are, in fact, only your opinion based on your baseball experiences.”

In fact they are based on sound sports physiological training tenets no matter what the sport and then applied to baseball and that’s all I was giving, you made it bigger than it was

quote:

“While you are entitled to them, they do not make you the final authority on sports training in baseball”

I realize I am not entitled to my own facts but I try to stick to actual know sports physiological facts. This is wholly lacking in the established baseball training techniques and timelines of today.

quote:

“You also launch them from one of the most condescending and cynical perches imaginable”

Sometimes the truth hurts especially when dealing with pitching injuries, I apologize if anything I say that is opposite what you believe and hurts in anyway, just let me know when I cross this line and I will try to put it in a more politically correct manor for you, sorry.

quote:

“:It doesn't make you seem more intelligent, it just makes you appear pompous:”

This is not what I want but how else do you say that training is disrupted by trying to compete when you should be training? I’m not to good at beating around the bush and my intent is not to look intelligent here, I’m not the one selling something.

quote:

”The baseball establishment is filled with knowledgeable sports medicine staffs who utilize state-of-the-art training methods and procedures to maintain and advance the health of their pitchers. I trust them.”

I used to trust them with their general and non “sport specific” training techniques but they have had their chance and have failed, it’s time to make a positive change to actual exacting physiological tenets that work.

quote:

“Good luck training your guys”

No luck necessary now, we have a much better handle on it!
Thanx for the encouragement, it’s an uphill battle

PGStaff,

quote:

”I actually disagree with some of what you write, but I’ve seen you in action at the Pitching Forum and I’m a bit frightened by your extreme knowledge”

I do not want or expect you to be frightened by or lower yourself to making absolute condescending insults as the subliminal statement “extreme knowledge” as you have always discussed with others on a respectful basis in the past.

quote:

”So you know more than college coaches including some that are considered legends in the game?”

I have great respect for all coaches at all levels whether they proceed correctly or not and believe the College coaches do a 10 fold better job than professional coaches and realize most of them are properly credentialed

quote:

“And you know more about this than the MLB organizations?”

These questions and all the previous ones have not addressed what I was even talking about, why the dance? MLB organizations do very little in the way of mechanical diagnosis or training and you know this, I think?

quote:

”Without knowing for sure, I would bet you my right arm”

Nobody has questioned your knowledge only your proceedings, there is no knowledge competition going on here, BTW, Dr.Richand Kimble is now looking for you.

quote:

”About me you said”

Don’t get all touchy feely, you interjected yourself here, I am hoping to stick around, we will see, I was talking about the situation that exists at all these boards when someone important has their feeling hurt by the truth.

quote:

“ I would never want someone censored simply because they didn’t agree with what I say.”

This would not be your decision now would it?

quote:

“I’ve said here very many times that I have been wrong and do make mistakes.”

I have never questioned you ethics and respect you very much as I have read you many times and enjoy every one of them.

quote:

“How about you, you ever been wrong?”

Did you not read where I admitted to being wrong when I followed the established dogma in my past?

quote:

“I have been wanting to correct you on many falsities”

I have never commented on some of your wrong headed mechanical beliefs in the past, would you like me to start? I think not?

quote:

“There have been people (competitors) come on here to try and discredit us, if that is what you mean.”

Absolutely not, you guys do a great job, all was talking about is what you have not still yet addressed

quote:

‘Yes, so why in the heck do these college coaches come to these events looking for players.”

Again your events are fine for the upper middle class and above, it is your I’ll timing that is bothersome and you seem to not understand this by your silence on my actual complaint.

quote:

“Then after several comments regarding mechanics which still have not been well received here and very much unproven at the highest level”

These tenets have been proven at all levels but then you must say what the people want to hear by taking this stand, understandable. Then you would have had to notice them?
I have had hundreds of kids go through your process and even been rated at the top, you were totally oblivious to the differences in them.

quote:

“Well Lon, Had we done that Carl Crawford might be playing in the NFL”

For this I have to commend you, this Marshallized trainer lost Mark Sanches in the same manor.

quote:

“ Jameson Tallion would have had to wait another year to be so well known nationally. Thousands of draft picks and college scholarships might have been different”

This is your weakest argument about kids whom would have found their place but then again I’m NOT against what you do only your timing.

quote:

” But I learned a long time ago, that those who think they know everything are the ones who have the most to learn.”

So. You are telling someone who did it your way for 30 years then learned he was in error by learning new knowledge that he has not learned, catch my drift? I am in the extreme in the quote you so fondly quip!

quote:

“I seriously doubt that you are that person! BTW, the one thing that counts the most? RESULTS!”

I am not here or care less for your opinion of me, I am here so parents of and or youth pitchers have a chance to make a informed choices so that their RESULTS lead them to healthy and correct advancement.

Can you please now talk about the concerns I registered? Since you are so much more knowledgeable than me please tell me how you missed the fact that these athletes training is negatively effected by attending your events during this time period? Or have I missed something and you actually have a questioner asking the athletes where they are at in their training regimens so you can weigh this against their performance?

Okay Yardbird, what do you recommend for position players and pitchers (if it's different) to be doing from the end of their season (or now for that matter) until the HS season begins in late Feb?

Yardbird,

I laughed at the picture with the smoking head...get over it.

As I said, you have your opinions and perspectives. If you are making money from people buying into your training schedule, good for you.

Good luck not needing luck...lol

Hi vtmom,

I feel your confusion and pain, but do not worry you are not hurting your son, just the contrary you are helping him.

Idea after YOU ARE SURE HE IS PAIN FREE, see what he is clocked at now, and if 85 ++ then try having him at a local indoor college camp thats not to expensive. but make sure they are going to clock him. While they do this you should be filming him for the dvd video you are going to create of your son.

Your son has strengths that can not be coached , he is 6'6" and shows tons of upside. Start sending e mails to the recruiting coords of colleges he wants to go to you will be surprised how much interest you my get. I would not worry abut the live games if yoiu can not find any right now. The camp will offer you the validation of your sons velocity which yoi can cite in your e mails and video.

quote:

vtmom,

Your son sounds very interesting. However, not knowing the entire situation, I can't suggest what to do. Every situation is different. Can say this... If he is not ready please don't attend any event, including ours.

I would email his information to staff@perfectgame.org, to make sure we know who he is. This does not cost anything and it will make sure he is in the database. It can be very important.

Since so much has been written contrary to my response to vtmom, thought it should be repeated.

I have nothing against off season training, pitchers shutting it down, or even being out of shape. That is not our decision to make. All we can do is tell people if they are not ready, don't come! That was the message above.

If there is any disadvantage in sending us information about a player, I don't know what it would be. Anyone who thinks it's better if we don't know about a player has received bad advice.

All that said, there is no perfect guideline to reaching the top. It's been done many different ways. To be honest, it has been done with PG and it has been done without PG. So it's not a PG thing at all. The most important thing is to keep getting better.

Not sure how pitching mechanics got involved in this discussion. I don't recall mentioning that, but yardbird did write...

quote:

If your pitching mechanics are injurious as proven in thousands of traditional pitchers every year what else would you call it, pitchers seriously injure them selves then return to the exact same way they performed previously because some prestigious organization run by orthopedic surgeon that does not understand what they are doing recommends that it is not the mechanics, it is the number of pitches they throw, this is a travesty that just keeps the OR’s full over and over. What’s the old saying about repetition and stupidity?

First of all, you are wrong. The people we work with are very much into injury prevention in every way. That would include number of pitches, insufficient recovery time, conditioning AND mechanics.

Listen you throw less pitches and at lower velocity, you are less likely to get hurt. You are also unlikely to be successful. You throw underhand and your likely to stay healthy, but unlikely you will be successful. Here is the question... Would you rather have perfect mechanics or mechanics that are safer and be unsuccessful or would you rather have mechanical flaws but pitch in the big leagues. I know the answer is to have it both ways, but obviously that is not happening these days. My belief... If you butt your head against the wall enough times, sooner or later you will have a head injury. If you pitch long enough there is a very high percentage you will have an arm injury. The number of great pitchers who have had TJ surgery is astounding.

I have nothing but respect for Marshall and his beliefs. He is one very smart guy. However, we need to know the results. How many MLB pitchers have followed his plan (mechanics)? We can talk forever, but sooner or later it is all about the results. In time we might all find out that he was correct. It will take results for that to happen. He knows that!

PG,
I think you should only hold your showcases during the HS regular season. That way you can be sure that the kids are in playing shape. You might have a little problem with none of them being able to attend but that way they'll be as safe as they can possibly be until they all change to the truly safe mechanics.

BTW, I work with really smart, capable people every day and I don't think Marshall is anywhere near as bright as he thinks he is or as he has convinced people he is. I know PHDs who are absolutely brilliant and I know PHDs who aren't very smart. A PHD, especially in kinesiology, is no guarantee of brilliance.

We are being told that the way we do it is wrong and we should change. We are being told that you have the answers. So if you would give us some examples of pitchers that have followed this plan and have had success with it that would be great. If your so sold on Marshall mechanics there must be some players out there that you can use as examples. Some players that have reached the pinnacle of the profession because of Marshall mechanics.

If you can not give us examples of players that have done this what are you basing your belief in? If you can eliminate or reduce greatly the risk of injury from pitching and at the same time reach your full potential as a pitcher using Marshall mechanics give us some results that prove this. That would be very helpfull.

PG Staff,

You posted...

"I would email his information to staff@perfectgame.org, to make sure we know who he is. This does not cost anything and it will make sure he is in the database. It can be very important."

... do you recommend this to all kids interested in playing college baseball or just 6'6" kids wh throw 89mph?

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by NP13:
PG Staff,

You posted...

"I would email his information to staff@perfectgame.org, to make sure we know who he is. This does not cost anything and it will make sure he is in the database. It can be very important."

... do you recommend this to all kids interested in playing college baseball or just 6'6" kids wh throw 89mph?

Thanks

Not to speak for PGstaff, but I would think he only does this for members of this board as a courtsey. I have seen him do it on numerous occasions with kids of all sizes. I wouldn't get overly cynical about it.

I wasn't trying to be "cynical" at all. I wasn't sure if he posted that because the kid sounded interesting or if they wanted kids in their database even if they haven't gone to a PG showcase yet.

There are lots of kids in the PG database who have not attended a PG showcase. Publicly, you will see many kids who are just listed as attending a PG tournament. From my understanding, the Perfect Game Staff attend other tournaments as well and will keep records on prospects from those tournaments. This information is not available to the general public.

My understanding is that when PG ranks the Top 1000 (or what ever), there are numerous kids on the list who have not attended a PG showcase. Obviously, they are in the PG database or they wouldn't be on the list, but never attended a PG event.

Like I said, this is all my understanding from what I have read PGStaff writing about as well as reading up on their website. If I am off base, I'm sure someone will let me know. I'm also sure PGStaff will come on here and answer the questions you have and explain things better than me.

NP13,

I do recommend talented players send us information, especially those who truly believe they have a chance to play at the next level. It may not help them unless they have some talent. And of course, we would be interested in any and all 6'6 pitchers in the upper 80s. Same way we would be interested in a small shortstop who can make all the plays look easy and swing the bat.

PGStaff -

Thank you, that is all I wanted to know. There was no hidden shot. I subscribe to your site and like it very much. I expect my son will end up at one of your events sooner or later. I didn't know that you took information from those who haven't attend any PG events.

Trojan-skipper,

quote:

“what do you recommend for position players”

This all depends on their biological age the amount and timing of the training stress that is appropriate.
Kids that are biologically 16 and younger should be performing aggressive field agility, glove field motor skills and throwing motor skills with light resistance overload training for no more than 120 consecutive days in the late fall and winter leading up to spring then maintain at ½ the weight and reps during competitive season.
Throw interval overload “sport specific” training should be performed with no more than 6 lb wrist weights and a 4 lb. Iron ball with reps starting at 12 a day leading up to 48 by spring with the 4 drills we use then low trajectory bullet Crowstep long toss starting 6 weeks before spring games using a pronated mechanic.

Kids that are biologically 16 to 19 can perform for 180 consecutive days the same field and glove motor skills with 10 lb. Wrist weights and a 6 Lb. Iron ball then maintain at ½ weight and reps to maintain during season using a pronated mechanic.

quote:

“pitchers (if it's different)”

Pitchers have appropriate biological age amounts also but they have more pitch type motor skill overload “sport specific” training to get through and it is every day, not the 1 day on and 2 days off most general trainers recommend with their non sport specific programs.

My pitchers use the wrist weights, Bucket twirls, Iron and lead ball throws and for motor skill training they use footballs (end over end) for all 6 pitch types, bucket lids for the pronated curve and baseballs off the mound for their underload training, every day.
They do bottom half training by running bases and doing sprint poles called speed ups by starting at the line and walk 10 Jog 10 trot 10 run 10 sprint 10 run 10 trot 10 Jog 10 then walk to the line and turn around and do it again 5 reps to start going up to 20 reps by spring, this drill eliminated Ham string pulls by training the proprioceptors to fire off at different rates so there is no neural confusion that cause Ham string pulls.
These kids are unable to compete because they are in continual training regression making a physiological adjustment week to week, any breaks and they go backwards and detrain like what happens with general techniques. If you read Marshalls materials it goes into detail if you are interested, believe me it is the best training program available for baseball players, field or pitching.

PGStaff,

quote:

“Since so much has been written contrary to my response to vtmom, thought it should be repeated.”

I have read nothing contrary to your original response to the OP and my response was not to you in particular and only to the way training timeline has evolved incorrectly due only in part by your organization.

quote:

“All we can do is tell people if they are not ready, don't come! That was the message above.”

This was completely understood! Did you understand my response? None of the pitchers you evaluate in the fall and winter are ready especially the ones that train correctly!

quote:

”If there is any disadvantage in sending us information about a player, I don't know what it would be”

There is none

quote:

“Anyone who thinks it's better if we don't know about a player has received bad advice”

Nobody has said this! why are you saying they have?

quote:

”All that said, there is no perfect guideline to reaching the top”

This is where you fail in understanding training timeline and proper exercise physiological principles. That’s all I’m saying and I’m not wrong on this.

quote:

“It's been done many different ways”

All to the detriment of pitchers and their upcoming seasons that should come first!
You must really be unaware this is happening?

quote:

To be honest, it has been done with PG and it has been done without PG.

It is disrupted with PG, now add in all the rest of the perceived importance obligations.

quote:

“The most important thing is to keep getting better.”

Do you understand that what I have been saying is exactly what this quote is saying and any shutdown in training is detrimental to physiological advancement by trying to be ready for all these events run continually? You have still not discussed my only contentions.

quote:

“First of all, you are wrong.”

I am absolutely not wrong on this and I am not questioning your staffs injury prevention
theory and if you mean the people you work with being the baseball establishment at all youth, college and pro levels? You are the one that is wrong on this, injuries have been increasing not reducing and this is my worry and complaint to you and all the rest that by doing what you all do at the inappropriate time these kids are never ready to compete at the beginning of the season.

quote:

“The people we work with are very much into injury prevention in every way”

You wouldn’t know it by the mechanics and training they agree with!

quote:

“That would include number of pitches”

with injurious mechanics they better be!

quote:

“insufficient recovery time”

I believe you guys can’t screw this up, there’s to many of them.

quote:

conditioning

I’m telling you they do not have a handle on this by the many disruptions along the way.

quote:

AND mechanics.

How wrong can you be in a thread where the OP’s kid is coming off of arm problems!
If your going to yell at least be correct, you are not, the mechanics (or not) that you evaluate at these events are injurious as taught by all these well meaning but wrong headed pitching coaches, It’s a fact and this is one of the fallacies I speak of and nobody is blaming YOU.

quote:

“Listen you throw less pitches and at lower velocity, you are less likely to get hurt. You are also unlikely to be successful.”

What are you saying here, I am really confused by this statement?

quote:

‘Would you rather have perfect mechanics or mechanics that are safer and be unsuccessful or would you rather have mechanical flaws but pitch in the big leagues”

How can I answer this utterly non-sensible question?
Non-injurious force application that is performed at maximally still does not injure you unless you are not in shape!
Injurious force application at maximal intensities continually breaks you down until you break.

quote:

“If you pitch long enough there is a very high percentage you will have an arm injury. The number of great pitchers who have had TJ surgery is astounding.”

Glad you recognize this! Are you aware there is a simple fix? If you have been reading my posts you might have run across the fix even though I am a cultist shill kool aid drinker, it still works.

quote:

”I have nothing but respect for Marshall and his beliefs. He is one very smart guy. However, we need to know the results.

He has produced results even with the broken pitchers he receives, can you name the pitchers whom he has trained that made it to the top? Can you name the current MLB pitchers that are using his tenets now and increasing every year?

quote:

How many MLB pitchers have followed his plan (mechanics)?

One of them holds many MLB records (now for over 30 years) including winning 3 games (3 straight days) in a row and won the first Cy Young award as a reliever, don’t tell me you can’t name him? Results.

quote:

“In time we might all find out that he was correct.”

You would have to do what I have done to find out, I have tried to show it from the bottom up but everybody balks at it and since this sport has no bar to jump over it is squelched through subjection, do you think it will magicly come in from the top down?

quote:

“ It will take results for that to happen. He knows that!”

There has been plenty of great results, you are either not aware of them or are playing the Ostrich like many.

How come the knowledgeable people in your organization do not assign a biological age assessment in your analysis?
And could you please now address my original concern? I have answered all your off subject questions, how about some fair quid?

CADad,

quote:

”I think you should only hold your showcases during the HS regular season. That way you can be sure that the kids are in playing shape.”

This is a great idea and the perfect time to do it, there is a one week dead period after Easter that would give you the best results but down (SoCal) here CIF might balk.

The actual best time would be 5 days before the draft just after the play off’s

quote:

“I don't think Marshall is anywhere near as bright as he thinks he is”

Marshall has never claimed brightness but you on the other hand are showing yours.
What does your disrespectful thoughts have to do with the subject we are discussing?

“A PHD, especially in kinesiology, is no guarantee of brilliance.”

He has already cleaned up the NFL throwers 30 years ago, he figures baseball while not having many advanced educated participants yet might want to clean up their mess also?

Coach May,

quote:

“We are being told that the way we do it is wrong and we should change.”

How do you do it in the fall and winter?
I don’t believe you have divulged your particular technique but wish to we yourself.

quote:

“We are being told that you have the answers.”

You are being told that breaks in training timeline are detrimental to physiological advancement. It is your right to disbelieve these exercise physiological tenets if you wish.

quote:

“So if you would give us some examples of pitchers that have followed this plan and have had success with it that would be great”

Start with Dr Mike Marshall!

quote:

“If your so sold on Marshall mechanics there must be some players out there that you can use as examples. Some players that have reached the pinnacle of the profession because of Marshall mechanics”

This is really not necessary being that these are known physiological tenets that you can easily find with some book learnin and the mechanics part has had very little time to give provenance but since I love reading your positive and thoughtful posts in the past and future I will indulge you just this once.

quote:

” If you can eliminate or reduce greatly the risk of injury from pitching and at the same time reach your full potential as a pitcher using Marshall mechanics give us some results that prove this. That would be very helpful”

I will give you 2, one drafted in the first round with an MLB org. and one drafted in the first round in the NFL.

Tyler Matzek (Rockies) was trained for 8 years using Marshalls mechanics and training and is currently in progressive sport specific training regression and will not come out of it until Feb..

Mark Sanches (Jets) was trained using Marshall mechanics and partially trained (just learning) because he was to young where when he entered SMCHS as a freshman he was pitching in the low 9’s then quit baseball to pursue his dream of signing for over 50 mil.

There are many more and another AFLAC pitcher this year but I can’t give you his name because of the negative stigma that many attach like you see here that may effect his draftability?

PGStaff,

quote:

“Since so much has been written contrary to my response to vtmom, thought it should be repeated.”

I have read nothing contrary to your original response to the OP and my response was not to you in particular and only to the way training timeline has evolved incorrectly due only in part by your organization.

quote:

“All we can do is tell people if they are not ready, don't come! That was the message above.”

This was completely understood! Did you understand my response? None of the pitchers you evaluate in the fall and winter are ready especially the ones that train correctly!

quote:

”If there is any disadvantage in sending us information about a player, I don't know what it would be”

There is none

quote:

“Anyone who thinks it's better if we don't know about a player has received bad advice”

Nobody has said this! why are you saying they have?

quote:

”All that said, there is no perfect guideline to reaching the top”

This is where you fail in understanding training timeline and proper exercise physiological principles. That’s all I’m saying and I’m not wrong on this.

quote:

“It's been done many different ways”

All to the detriment of pitchers and their upcoming seasons that should come first!
You must really be unaware this is happening?

quote:

To be honest, it has been done with PG and it has been done without PG.

It is disrupted with PG, now add in all the rest of the perceived importance obligations.

quote:

“The most important thing is to keep getting better.”

Do you understand that what I have been saying is exactly what this quote is saying and any shutdown in training is detrimental to physiological advancement by trying to be ready for all these events run continually? You have still not discussed my only contentions.

quote:

“First of all, you are wrong.”

I am absolutely not wrong on this and I am not questioning your staffs injury prevention
theory and if you mean the people you work with being the baseball establishment at all youth, college and pro levels? You are the one that is wrong on this, injuries have been increasing not reducing and this is my worry and complaint to you and all the rest that by doing what you all do at the inappropriate time these kids are never ready to compete at the beginning of the season.

quote:

“The people we work with are very much into injury prevention in every way”

You wouldn’t know it by the mechanics and training they agree with!

quote:

“That would include number of pitches”

with injurious mechanics they better be!

quote:

“insufficient recovery time”

I believe you guys can’t screw this up, there’s to many of them.

quote:

conditioning

I’m telling you they do not have a handle on this by the many disruptions along the way.

quote:

AND mechanics.

How wrong can you be in a thread where the OP’s kid is coming off of arm problems!
If your going to yell at least be correct, you are not, the mechanics (or not) that you evaluate at these events are injurious as taught by all these well meaning but wrong headed pitching coaches, It’s a fact and this is one of the fallacies I speak of and nobody is blaming YOU.

quote:

“Listen you throw less pitches and at lower velocity, you are less likely to get hurt. You are also unlikely to be successful.”

What are you saying here, I am really confused by this statement?

quote:

‘Would you rather have perfect mechanics or mechanics that are safer and be unsuccessful or would you rather have mechanical flaws but pitch in the big leagues”

How can I answer this utterly non-sensible question?
Non-injurious force application that is performed at maximally still does not injure you unless you are not in shape!
Injurious force application at maximal intensities continually breaks you down until you break.

quote:

“If you pitch long enough there is a very high percentage you will have an arm injury. The number of great pitchers who have had TJ surgery is astounding.”

Glad you recognize this! Are you aware there is a simple fix? If you have been reading my posts you might have run across the fix even though I am a cultist shill kool aid drinker, it still works.

quote:

”I have nothing but respect for Marshall and his beliefs. He is one very smart guy. However, we need to know the results.

He has produced results even with the broken pitchers he receives, can you name the pitchers whom he has trained that made it to the top? Can you name the current MLB pitchers that are using his tenets now and increasing every year?

quote:

How many MLB pitchers have followed his plan (mechanics)?

One of them holds many MLB records (now for over 30 years) including winning 3 games (3 straight days) in a row and won the first Cy Young award as a reliever, don’t tell me you can’t name him? Results.

quote:

“In time we might all find out that he was correct.”

You would have to do what I have done to find out, I have tried to show it from the bottom up but everybody balks at it and since this sport has no bar to jump over it is squelched through subjection, do you think it will magicly come in from the top down?

quote:

“ It will take results for that to happen. He knows that!”

There has been plenty of great results, you are either not aware of them or are playing the Ostrich like many.

How come the knowledgeable people in your organization do not assign a biological age assessment in your analysis?
And could you please now address my original concern? I have answered all your off subject questions, how about some fair quid?

CADad,

quote:

”I think you should only hold your showcases during the HS regular season. That way you can be sure that the kids are in playing shape.”

This is a great idea and the perfect time to do it, there is a one week dead period after Easter that would give you the best results but down (SoCal) here CIF might balk.

The actual best time would be 5 days before the draft just after the play off’s

quote:

“I don't think Marshall is anywhere near as bright as he thinks he is”

Marshall has never claimed brightness but you on the other hand are showing yours.
What does your disrespectful thoughts have to do with the subject we are discussing?

“A PHD, especially in kinesiology, is no guarantee of brilliance.”

He has already cleaned up the NFL throwers 30 years ago, he figures baseball while not having many advanced educated participants yet might want to clean up their mess also?

Coach May,

quote:

“We are being told that the way we do it is wrong and we should change.”

How do you do it in the fall and winter?
I don’t believe you have divulged your particular technique but wish to we yourself.

quote:

“We are being told that you have the answers.”

You are being told that breaks in training timeline are detrimental to physiological advancement. It is your right to disbelieve these exercise physiological tenets if you wish.

quote:

“So if you would give us some examples of pitchers that have followed this plan and have had success with it that would be great”

Start with Dr Mike Marshall!

quote:

“If your so sold on Marshall mechanics there must be some players out there that you can use as examples. Some players that have reached the pinnacle of the profession because of Marshall mechanics”

This is really not necessary being that these are known physiological tenets that you can easily find with some book learnin and the mechanics part has had very little time to give provenance but since I love reading your positive and thoughtful posts in the past and future I will indulge you just this once.

quote:

” If you can eliminate or reduce greatly the risk of injury from pitching and at the same time reach your full potential as a pitcher using Marshall mechanics give us some results that prove this. That would be very helpful”

I will give you 2, one drafted in the first round with an MLB org. and one drafted in the first round in the NFL.

Tyler Matzek (Rockies) was trained for 8 years using Marshalls mechanics and training and is currently in progressive sport specific training regression and will not come out of it until Feb..

Mark Sanches (Jets) was trained using Marshall mechanics for 4 years and partially trained (just learning) because he was to young where when he entered SMCHS as a freshman he was pitching in the low 9’s then quit baseball to pursue his dream of signing for over 50 mil.

There are many more and another AFLAC pitcher this year but I can’t give you his name because of the negative stigma that many attach like you see here that may effect his draftability?

Yardbird,

Posts are somewhat like outfield signs-less is more. We often tell out sponsors that people are reading the signs from 300 feet away, so keep the message big but brief.

On line posts would seem to require a similar philosophy...if you want them to be read.

I agree with hokieone about length of posts!

Yardbird, your extremely long posts often seem like lecture attempts rather than discussion points. As the forum administrator, I sometimes wonder if I should remove your posts to avoid "turning off" readers who will simply stop reading the discussion at that point because it is so difficult to slog through your post. Think about it.

Julie

Marshall did not use the tenets he teaches now when he pitched 30 years ago. Please don't use him as an example.

Tyler Matzek strayed from the Marshall teachings as admitted by you. You have stated that he will wind up with an injury because of this. (please don't make me go back and find the place you made this assertion). Although he may use some of the Marshall tenets, he is NOT a full Marshall pitcher.

Please give an expample of a full Marshall pitcher who has made it to the MLB. Not Dr. Marshall who pitched before he developed the current tenets and has said himself he researched and came up with his current teachings because his own mechanics were flawed and injurious. And not a kid who trained with the Marshall tenets, but left them behind to be more effective.

quote:

And could you please now address my original concern?

What was it again? I got to say, is this really a concern of yours or some kind of advertisement?

quote:

He has produced results even with the broken pitchers he receives, can you name the pitchers whom he has trained that made it to the top? Can you name the current MLB pitchers that are using his tenets now and increasing every year?

No I can not name them. All I am asking is please name them, so I and others might know who they are. It seems like such a simple thing to do.

The year before he was drafted in the first round, Tyler Matzek pitched for the Braves Scout Team in late October WWBA Jupiter, FL 2008. In late August he pitched in the Aflac All American Game.
Here is the proof... Tyler Matzek

So if you are saying pitchers are not in shape during this period of time and should not be pitching and you're also using Tyler Matzek as your "only" example (Other than Marshall himself 30 years ago)... I am very confused. Did he not listen to your advice? Did pitching in that event cause him problems. The following spring he was the 11th pick first round and signed for nearly $4,000,000.00. What am I missing here?

MN-Mom,

quote:

”Yardbird, your extremely long posts often seem like lecture attempts rather than discussion points.”

Explaining these important tenets takes some word smithing that I am not very to good at but learning, people ask questions and make personal disparaging comments and get away with it with out response, explaining this information thoroughly allows the ones who wish to read what I say a chance to understand better.

quote:

“As the forum administrator, I sometimes wonder if I should remove your posts to avoid "turning off" readers who will simply stop reading the discussion at that point because it is so difficult to slog through your post. Think about it.”

I have in the past asked people who see my posts to just ignore them but they keep reading them and responding.

I would hope that this important information does not get censored as it has been in the past and beg your indulgence and sincerely apologize.

I actually love PGStaff and coach Mays many past longer responses but now know they have this luxury and I do not.

I will take your recommendations and warning seriously and in the future to keep from getting eliminated I will give lesser responses. You do realize that this is what many want to happen?

Hokieone,

Thanx for your thoughtful and respectful response, I will do as you suggest.

Go Rams!!!!

Bballman,

quote:

Marshall did not use the tenets he teaches now when he pitched 30 years ago. Please don't use him as an example.

Yes he did! He is a perfect example.

quote:

”Tyler Matzek strayed from the Marshall teachings as admitted by you.”

Yes he did, when he went pro he followed their recommendations and his shoulder and elbow started to react negatively! He is back now training the way he used to.

quote:

’Please give an expample of a full Marshall pitcher who has made it to the MLB.”

You have asked this many times before and I am being warned not to expand.
Joe Williams made it to AA by way of the lower development personnel with the Cardinals then the upper development personnel found out and he was eliminated.
Like I said if you are not going to be allowed in from the bottom up do not expect to see it from the top down with any pace. Many MLB pitchers have his information, Halladay being one of them.

quote:

“Not Dr. Marshall who pitched before he developed the current tenets”

He used all the upper half tenets!

quote:

“and has said himself he researched and came up with his current teachings because his own mechanics were flawed and injurious.

Wrong and that ain’t right! Bottom half only!
You know this but being a devout Marshall info hater you must respond as you do

Talk about being "brainwashed" !!!

PGStaff,

quote:

What was it again? I got to say, is this really a concern of yours or some kind of advertisement?

This response is not like you, I see no advertisement, you must think I’m a brainwashed tard shill like Trhit and MTH.

quote:

“All I am asking is please name them, so I and others might know who they are. It seems like such a simple thing to do.”

I did, Jeff Kubenca is another, there are more. I have to be careful in my response length?

quote:

I am very confused. Did he not listen to your advice?

No! and that is what I am saying, he was so loaded up with fall and winter distractions he was not ready to start hid senior year regular season and only got in shape by the end of that season and not in the beginning of it as it should be as witnessed by his erratic and low velocity start and high velocity acute command finish and he is only one of them.

quote:

“Did pitching in that event cause him problems.”

Yes training timeline problems!!!!! That’s all I have been saying!

quote:

The following spring he was the 11th pick first round and signed for nearly $4,000,000.00. What am I missing here?

You are missing the fact that these high profile pitchers do not need what you offer and should be eliminated from your database, what are they an advertisement?
You should be concentrating on the bubble kids who are not exposed, now we are on a different subject that you started, happy. Do you think pro scouts need you for these exceptional kids?

I haven't read any of this thread.

I don't know why but when I see Yardbird, I smell chicken ****.

Or BBQ.

quote:

Originally posted by FormerObserver:
I haven't read any of this thread.

I don't know why but when I see Yardbird, I smell chicken ****.

Or BBQ.

Brilliant minds think alike FO

I am pretty sure "no trolls" (llorton spelled backwards) are involved here

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
Bballman,

quote:

Marshall did not use the tenets he teaches now when he pitched 30 years ago. Please don't use him as an example.

Yes he did! He is a perfect example.

quote:

“Not Dr. Marshall who pitched before he developed the current tenets”

He used all the upper half tenets!

So Dr. Marshall was using all his upper half tenets between 1961 and 1981 (at least prior to 1981 when his career ended) and has not come up with anything new for the upper half since then?

So, he has been teaching the exact same thing on the upper half Marshall mechanics for the last 29 years, minimum, and he has not had more people than the 2 or 3 you mentioned, make it to the major leagues?

I really thought he had been developing and testing and researching this in an evolving progression all this time. If he had it down pat by 1981, was all the research he has done since then just been to justify his method that he had already developed? I thought science and reasearch and testing was to come up with the most effective, effecient way of doing things. Not to provide data to people to justify the way it is already being done.

Wow, you taught me something new here Yard.

Julie, please don't remove Yardbird's lengthy posts. I read just one when I got to work this morning and suddenly it was time for lunch!

People should, however, have to send a dime into the HSBBW for every quote clip they use in a post...

As for the Marshall philosophy, the lack of big league pitchers it's produced over decades renders it basically useless.

quote:

Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
Julie, please don't remove Yandbird's lengthy posts. I read just one when I got to work this morning and suddenly it was time for lunch!

People should, however, have to send a dime into the HSBBW for every quote clip they use in a post...

Baseballdad1228, I owe you a dime

quote:
The following spring he was the 11th pick first round and signed for nearly $4,000,000.00. What am I missing here?


You are missing the fact that these high profile pitchers do not need what you offer and should be eliminated from your database, what are they an advertisement?
You should be concentrating on the bubble kids who are not exposed, now we are on a different subject that you started, happy. Do you think pro scouts need you for these exceptional kids?

I'm not sure pro scouts "need" us for any kid. However they sure come to the events and watch them play and, along with college recruiters, they sure are the majority of our scouting service subscribers. How do we eliminate them from the database when they have been to the event.

BTW, what do you mean advertisement... I didn't bring up Tyler Matzek... YOU did! Maybe this quote will refresh your memory...

quote:

Tyler Matzek (Rockies) was trained for 8 years using Marshalls mechanics and training and is currently in progressive sport specific training regression and will not come out of it until Feb..

Who is advertising here... I just told you he pitched in late October the fall before he swigned for nearly $4 Million dollars. He pitched in front of hundreds of scouts including most of the Scouting Directors. Did you even know that?

You were also the first person to mentiion mechanics in this topic.

Ask the first pitcher selected this past year if he is happy about going to those events. Ask Madison Bumgarner, Zach Greinke, Chad Billingsley, Jeremy Hellickson, I can name hundreds if you wish.

What are you trying to start here. Your defense seems to be, take the offensive.

No one forces any kid to attend our event. There were well over 100 that threw 90 or better in Jupiter about a week ago. That was the same event that Tyler Matzek pitched in. BTW, it wasn't us that got him there. He played for the team put together by the Atlanta Braves!!!! Sorry, it just happened to be our event.

Man, what is your problem? Why do you have to be a jerk? If you were representing us, I'd tell you to shut up and get lost. Do you really think you're helping Marshall and what he is trying to accomplish? You're not helping a bit by just creating enemies.

Once again, is that all the names you can come up with? If so, wouldn't it make sense to do it the way all the best pitchers do it? You know... all those "other" guys?

BTW, I have never before said anything against Marshall's theories. Just goes to show what a sh*tty job you are doing representing him.

BTW, I call BS about this remark... There are many more and another AFLAC pitcher this year but I can’t give you his name because of the negative stigma that many attach like you see here that may effect his draftability?

Just how important do you think you are? You mention his name and they don't draft him? Come on! If they think he's the best pitcher, he will be the first pitcher selected. I'm growing tired of your BS!

PGStaff,

I was asked to answer these questions and it had nothing to do with you. Now that you and others are getting snotty with the personal attacks (typical) and getting away with it and you are not going to address the problem and questions I raised there is nothing else to say other than the original posters child needs to get into shape before he shows, this takes a minimum of 6 months and nice post length.

What, no quotes?

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
PGStaff,

the original posters child needs to get into shape before he shows

Now, there is something I can totally agree with you on Yard.

I actually just wrote a post about professional workouts and college show cases if you were interested. Hope this helps!

Danramosd,

Nice article and very informative!

As you can see you had to put in this disclaimer and exactly the subject that I have been talking about and nothing more.

Now add in all the other events and competitions these parents believe they must attend and you have exacerbated the positive training timeline into a detraining timeline.

The week before

quote:

“To make sure you are prepared for the workout you have to plan your bullpen and workout schedule a week in advance.”

This is preparation to shut it down a week ahead to be in perceived readiness.

quote:

“ I’m not going to go into specifics about when you should or shouldn’t throw and lift because everyone is different when it comes to that.”

Physiologically everybody is basically the same, their workout routines are different though because of what they do privately.

quote:

“The key is to make sure you are strong”

Are you aware of how an athlete comes out of training regression to get ready for competition?

quote:

“but well rested going into your workout.”

Rest = Atrophy, one week of rest = 2.5 weeks in reduction of previous gains!

Yard why not start your own discussion on what you believe is the right way to train and those that care can read it instead of trying to force feed us?

The OP asked a simple question:

"Will it hurt him if he goes and does not do as well as he could potentially do or is it better to wait until after he has been playing for a while with his HS team?"

People have answered and given feedback. No need to drag things out.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
Danramosd,

Nice article and very informative!

As you can see you had to put in this disclaimer and exactly the subject that I have been talking about and nothing more.

Now add in all the other events and competitions these parents believe they must attend and you have exacerbated the positive training timeline into a detraining timeline.

The week before

quote:

“To make sure you are prepared for the workout you have to plan your bullpen and workout schedule a week in advance.”

This is preparation to shut it down a week ahead to be in perceived readiness.

quote:

“ I’m not going to go into specifics about when you should or shouldn’t throw and lift because everyone is different when it comes to that.”

Physiologically everybody is basically the same, their workout routines are different though because of what they do privately.

quote:

“The key is to make sure you are strong”

Are you aware of how an athlete comes out of training regression to get ready for competition?

quote:

“but well rested going into your workout.”

Rest = Atrophy, one week of rest = 2.5 weeks in reduction of previous gains!

Thank you for the feedback on my article. My intentions for this post was never to describe or go into detail about your actual workout before the showcase or workout. I will not go into detail about something that I'm not an expert in, which is work out regimens. I know what works for me and other guys I have played with even though I might not be able to explain why. So whenever I mention working out it will usually be in the most general sense of the word. I tend to focus most of my posts on the mental part of the game which is where I was going with this post.

As for the original post I seemed to neglect to answer. I think since he is a 2012 he has plenty of time to still attend show cases. Even if he can't get to as many as he would like, he should be sending out emails to coaches introducing himself. Ask coaches to come out and watch him pitch the next time he is throwing in a game. You don't always have to pay the big $$ to get big results.

Bigdog44,

As with the rest and now you all I have done is answered their questions and contentions.
Danramosd showed exactly what I was talking about as being part of the baseball establishment..

quote:

‘instead of trying to force feed us?”

Nobody has been forced to do anything but they all seem to want to change my original contention into something we were not even discussing

quote:

The OP asked a simple question:

And got many good answers, my original answer was short and to the point, it all fell apart when PG had to protect himself then by not answering the actual contention by escalation into off subjects, all I did was answer back.

quote:

”People have answered and given feedback.’ No need to drag things out.

So, bacicly the question mark you posted at the end of you first question I should just have ignored? I believe this is rude and I will always answer legitimate questions unlike many others.

Yardbird,

Start at the top and read all of this. Once again my response to your first post and the original question...

quote:

Yardbird,

I really don't care whether pitchers want to shut down after summer.

However, I have to ask this question. Why do college programs play in the fall? Why do they hold camps in the off season? Why do professional players play in the fall and the winter leagues? Why do MLB clubs have instructs?

Also, would you describe a pitcher that ends up going early in the first round as taking the wrong approach if he plays beyond the summer?

Not saying you are wrong, but we can give hundreds of examples of those who did not follow your advice above. Did they take the wrong approach?

Scott Kazmir, Chad Billingsley, Matt Cain, John Danks, Gerritt Cole, Jameson Tallion, Shelby Miller, Nick Adenhart, etc. On the other hand, to be fair, we could name several who did not play after the summer season.

Also I take exception to your comments about "the all mighty dollar" and what exactly is "the showcase (baseball evolved ignorance) establishment"? Just to be clear, we are not part of any establishment.

BTW, would you describe those listed above as taking a "timeline to mediocrity"? Don't want to get involved in a discussion regarding traditional mechanics. That belongs in the pitching forum. I will say this... There is no reward without risk! It just doesn't ever happen in any baseball player. So I could say, playing it too safe will lead to mediocrity. Not to be confused with being stupid pertaining to the risk.

vtmom,

Your son sounds very interesting. However, not knowing the entire situation, I can't suggest what to do. Every situation is different. Can say this... If he is not ready please don't attend any event, including ours.

I would email his information to staff@perfectgame.org, to make sure we know who he is. This does not cost anything and it will make sure he is in the database. It can be very important.

Then you took it upon yourself to dissect just about every word of the above. What makes you right and nearly everyone else in College or Professional baseball wrong? I don't understand!

PGStaff,

quote:

Then you took it upon yourself to dissect just about every word of the above.

You said “I have to ask this question “ then asked 4 in the first paragraph, Then you said “would you describe”, “did they”,” what exactly”, “would you describe” and in each case I honestly answered you and asked a few questions myself that you refused to answer and went off on a different track that usually means something

quote:

What makes you right and nearly everyone else in College or Professional baseball wrong?

Like I said, Look at the injury ratios in these and all levels with pitchers that are escalating and it all gets back to proper training and mechanics of which I only posed the training timeline that is constantly being disrupted through a multitude of competitive events or implemented incorrectly through general means.

Your highlighted statement was perfect the way it was and in keeping with your usual gentlemanly and personable style and I did not comment on it but the later cursing and personal attacks were telling and I am very sorry to have seen you break down in this manor and had been a part of it and apologize for being this part.

quote:

I don't understand!

I hope you think about this, it is real! I’m sorry I’m the one that had to make you aware or not but it is what it is. I’m sure there is a way to resolve it but not if it is not recognized or admitted to or understood.
A good test for you to cross check this contention would be to pose the question to all your personnel and see if they are aware of the problem and honestly evaluate their responses, then you will know where the established evolved thinking is and if it matches yours.
You could e-mail the leading expert on the subject and get his honest qualified opinion but that would take very large nads and may lead to unintended consequences for you so you might just leave that one alone. Curious?

Julie, you don't need to remove posts because most of us just skip the long winded, self serving posts.

It doesn't take long on this forum to realize who the knowledgeable, responsible posters are. It also doesn't take long to realize those people who will argue about whether the grass is green and the sky is blue.

VT Mom, there was a thread on the NE Forum about showcases/college camps in the region this fall. There are some helpful posters who visit that forum who might have some regional information if you are looking for opportunities in the area, and if your son is ready. I think there's some value in attending something low profile (not at his dream school), just to get him accustomed to the format before the summer showcase season.