Should Pre-High School players and teams be travelling so much

Hey NC. I am not the knowledgeable source you seek, but I have not been an advocate of too much tournament ball before high school age. At that time its great for exposure and opens opportunities for players wanting to move to the next level. Below age 14 it just seems like its a big money maker for operators and a financial burden on parents. Many here will say they want higher levels of competition and thats why they go to these. Way beck when, all of the talent stayed in town and then there was plenty of talent in local leagues. JMHO, but I favor tournaments and showcases for ages 14 and up.

Like most questions, there are as many answers as there are situations. When my son was at these ages (8-10 years ago), we ran into few teams who weren't of good quality. From some of the posts here, I presume that has changed --- teams are being started up on the premise that simply being on a travel team makes your son a good player. That certainly complicates matters.

While my son was in hs, a few companies started up (and were discussed here) that seem to be in the business to take advantage of parents who believe that an invitation to a showcase validates their son's future.

If a family has the money and wishes to enjoy the experience of travel ball, they're making some great memories. Enjoy the moment. That's what you're buying at that age --- you're not 'buying' his future success.

Quality teams and quality competition do make better players. If you're considering a team, go to games, ask team parents questions, watch the interaction.

Coach, we're fortunate to live in one of the areas of the country with year-round ball and a lot of good ballplayers and facilites. If we lived elsewhere, travel to find enough competition might be more of an issue.

The state & regional boards here can be of invaluable assistance in helping parents determine where to spend their son's talent and their family's money.

Our son didn't start travel ball until age 15 and we're still broke! I honestly don't know how some of these families do it.

Our son was approached to play for a travel team at age 11. We declined mainly because it would prohibit us from attending church as a family. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be a concern of most folks these days.

I'm also concerned about the siblings of young travel ball players. What about their interests and activities? There's no time to pursue them if you're traveling all the time.

Our son played locally through age 14 and the talent level was always pretty high. At age 14, my son and his team went to the junior league state tourney and my son was the only player to get a hit off the opposing pitcher in the championship game. (This pitcher is now the highest '08 ranked player in Texas and he was still playing locally at that age.)

Unfortunately, talent on the local level has gotten pretty diluted in the past few years. The younger brother of one of my son's high school teammates played on a 10-year-old All Star team this summer and they won the state tourney. That was all fine and good, but they won 12-13 games straight, outscoring their opponents 144-14. Something is wrong with that picture.

Frankly, I'm glad we have only one son so we're not having to deal with the temptation to travel at a much earlier age.

You pay the money you can have a team. I was talking to a parent who was complaining he paid so much money traveled to a tournament stayed in a motel food gas etc etc. and his kid only got a couple of bats. burn out? following scenario. a kid plays in Middle school, summer ball, fall ball then joins a team that plays in a tournament in jan and Feb then school ball starts. Now what if he is a pitcher? a lot of the posters complain about the number of pitches a kid throws in a 6 or 7 inning game. what about the number for this in 12 months?

As someone who heads up a travel baseball program, I'll say that I do not believe in pre-high school kids doing very much travel ball, if any at all. When we had a 14u team, and that's the youngest we've ever fielded, we played in the local Sandy Koufax league, played in a FEW local tournaments and took the boys to Oneonta, New York to play in the Cooperstown Baseball World tournament. That was the only out of area traveling we did, and it was a fantastic time as every boy except one had his dad, grandfather or both with him. We took that trip five years ago, and the boys and dads still talk about how grea it was. We also made it more than just a baseball tournament. We took the boys to see a Yankees game and toured New York City, which most of us had never seen before. That was an outstanding trip, but I think it's the exception to what most do with travel ball, even at the youngest ages.

I believe that younger players should primarily play locally, and everyone-parents especially, should remember that at these younger ages the single most important thing should be to have FUN. It'll get plenty serious enough sooner than some kids are ready for. They can still learn to play the game the right way while having lots of FUN doing it.

My oldest son started traveling at 12. I have mixed feelings....and I may get into that later....but what I wanted to address was the issue of the younger siblings.....My younger daughters were 6 and 4 at the time. They grew up at various sporting locations...football and baseball fields, basketball courts, etc....They loved it. They soaked it all in. Both of my daughters (currently 12 and 14) play travel softball (much nuttier than baseball, let me tell you). They both have such knowledge of the game of baseball it really isn't even funny. Talk about an "unfair advantage".

Right about now, I am burnt out. Not sure if it's due to all that we've been through lately, or if it's my age and all ....or just the thousands of games that I've attended....My daughters can't get enough, especially the younger one. Last year at 10, she played in 108 games. !!! She wanted more and couldn't wait until fall ball started two weeks later. Of course, it helps to be on a winning team...winning is contagious and fun....

We turned traveling to tournaments into "family vacations"--and coaches would ask us, "Where do you guys go????"

There is a lot to be said for playing locally, but it sure is fun knowing kids and playing with kids around the country.

And speaking of fun...I'll echo what 06catcherdad said about the having fun....Some of these travel coaches succk all the life out of these young kids. At that point, it sure isn't worth it. It better be fun, by golly, or it's not worth it at all. And they need to learn, too... and not that life isn't fair or what daddy-ball or mommy-ball is all about. When these little kids learn the fundamentals WELL and HAVE FUN while playing, it is a great experience for them and in turn, for at least these two parents.

Knowing what we know now, and knowing how much money we spent (ha! at the snack bar alone, never mind fast food joints. Thank God for Subway! And coupons to Subway!!!!) I'm not sure that we would have started when we did....but when I asked my son the day after his Tommy John surgery if it was all worth it, he said YES! very exuberantly.

And the beat goes on.....My 14 year old daughter had her first practice of the new softball season today and the younger one was jealous...She doesn't start for another week....

And the beat goes on....and on....and on.......



P.S. I may get into the other side of my feelings about this later....if I get depressed or angry about something....

ncball - You know how I feel.

Are you back in town?

Our son began playing travel at 12. He went to Cooperstown last summer. This summer he just wrapped up playing high school summer ball. BIG Changes Really Fast. He has a June Birthday, so playing travel was important in order to play real ball and on bigger fields. He was the youngest out of 28 this summer. (But he was also the tallest, bringing its own set of pressures) The best REC players in our area eventually move on by age 12.

We are very lucky. There are at least 7 venues within an hour and a half. Four or five more are two and a half hours away. Those are considered big trips for our team. Every situation is different. It was the right move for us. We love it. Even 45 minutes away, we can spend a ton of money, just not on hotels. For the last year, we have had great parents and a team that continues to improve. This Fall will probably be the last one for this team since our son is aging out. Our coaches are not focusing on winning at any cost which is unusual.

We are very lucky.

Yes and I fully agree with you!

The whole idea of Select or Travel Ball.
Is to seek to play against the best talent available.
But ages 12 thru 14/15 should be more for development and less on winning every tournament.
We had a 13u team qualify for AAU national tournament.
Parent's said this team wasn't good enough to go to the nationals. What a missed oppurtunity to have memories that would lasted a lifetime.
EH

ncball,

I coach a 14U team (13u in 2007). The problem with traveling to tourneys like the Elite 24 is you typically don't play against the real team. They will pull 4-5 guys from other teams. This tells me the coach is there to win at all costs...not my style at all.

Our team can compete with anyone because we have had the same 9 or so kids for the last 3 years. We have worked on the fundamentals. We have never recruited kids to play for us and certainly never replaced a current player with a bigger/stronger kid.

The advantage for our kids in having the reputation as a very good team is that we ALWAYS face a team's ace, even when we played up against 14U last year. When they get to HS, they should not be overmatched or face a situation that will surprise them. We travel for this reason.

I have coached travel ball for the last 5 years. My son enjoyed it but I sometimes think he might be burned out. I see the value in the competition (our local little league was a joke). Travel ball is being watered down over the years as more and more teams and leagues are formed, looking for better competition (or as Dad's get kicked out of local leagues )

But lets face it. This is all about the parents. I have never heard 1 young player say: I really want to travel all over the state (or country) to play ball.... They just want to play ball! They usually don't care where. You don't hear them say.. Oh we need to play more games against tougher competition... this is the sound of parents not kids IMO!

Cong, I think you just scored a bullseye with the parent observation.

I’m with Orlando here --- Many different situations warrant many different actions. Recreational teams in many areas have gotten very weak because they have lost most of their quality players to some type of travel team. The incoming players find themselves being “forced” to join a travel team in order to play some good baseball. This in itself creates more travel teams and suddenly you have so many travel teams that in reality you have nothing more that recreational level teams traveling around the USA, staying in motels, dining out at Ruth Crisps, and playing other rec teams. Parents can end up spending time and money for no real gain other than saying their son plays on a travel team. However, if parents do their homework they can find the right fit (whether it is local or on a travel team) and the odds of success are greatly improved. We had a great experience of travel teams. My son joined a 13u travel team when he was 11 and loved it. He had no siblings so that didn’t factor in. To me there is no comparison in wearing steel cleats, swinging big barreled bats, and throwing a no hitter against an East Cobb team or going yard against Rancho Cucamonga when compared to run ruling the Dairy Queen team at the county baseball field wearing rubber cleats and swinging a “skinny” bat. He loved on the competition and couldn’t wait for the next tournament. As far as cost goes I think families have to evaluate their personal situation and act accordingly. I can understand how some would not (or could not) spend the money. Personally I gave up tournament bass fishing to follow my son’s baseball. I can assure you I enjoyed his baseball more that being an “also ran” in a bass tournament.

I have told you how I see it today ---- Now here is how I think it should be ----


In a perfect world youth baseball would revert back very much to the way it was. The recreational teams would be a viable baseball experience providing instructions and quality play for all players up to age 16. Recreational baseball would continue for players up to age 18. Travel teams would be few and far between with teams being in the 16-18 age bracket. They would be a top quality team(s) 100% sponsored by the business community. Pay to play would not factor in. Players would be the best and the teams would compete against similar teams in other towns/states. I know that will never happen because there is too much parental money involved. Many parents/coaches “build” teams to fit their needs and convince other parents (investors) to join in. I don't fault them for their actions but they do impact every other player in the community. Hey, I did it when my son was that age --- but my situation was different
Fungo

Very well stated Fungo. I too wish that we could turn the clocks back to a less hectic, less expensive, and more innocent time for youth baseball. It seemed to work well enough back then.



Now in regards to your bass fishing...

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
Personally I gave up tournament bass fishing to follow my son’s baseball. I can assure you I enjoyed his baseball more that being an “also ran” in a bass tournament.

The lonely and placid life of the also ran...

cong, although I believe in many cases your point is spot on, I will say that my son was getting bored with the whole LL thing at the age of 10. We had decent athleticism in the league, but few fundamentals and little understanding of the game.

I was afraid he was seriously considering quitting baseball; the S word was mentioned a lot, and he was invited to a select team to play goalie.....

I had already signed him up at a Christmas Camp with Chet Lemon, where he played with some very good young players (several of whom are playing pro right now), and was invited to join his AAU team. It put the fire back in him and the rest, as they say, is history.

Side note: One of those 10-12u Juice teammates came up to bat as Aeden was catching in the NW League a few weeks back. Hadn't seen each other in 10 years. As they exchanged greetings, they couldn't help but say "How freaky is this?"

I'm neither angry or depressed, but will write my other side of it....

In a word, NO. In an "audience" with my sons' orthopedic surgeon immediately post-op after the labrum surgery, the doctor stated that he has been operating on more and more young kids. He considered my 17 year old to be a young kid. By the way, when my older son had the Tommy John operation 2 weeks ago, the doc had performed some other elbow surgery on a 12 year old. When I asked the doctor what he thought the reason for all of the injuries resulting in surgeries, in his opinion it was all of the year round travel sports. Not just baseball, but swimming, volleyball, basketball, and another "s" sport. He explained that the muscles need a significant amount of time to rest, two months at least, and with travel sports there just is no down time. He also said that kids should play more than one sport so as not work the same muscles too much. Need to rest the muscles.

It's quite a dilemma. If you don't travel early, then you may be at a disadvantage because the other kids have developed more skills, etc. But if you do travel early, then you may risk injury from overuse....and are then out for an important junior or senior year (or both) and if that is the case, then what was the point of all that travel?

Actually a qualified "maybe"--Maybe if you limit the number of games or limit the number of weekend tournaments. If you live in an area with a lot of good travel teams, then play locally and don't go to out-of-town tourneys which require a hotel stay. Make sure the kids get involved with other sports--even if they prefer to play baseball. And know that you must be an advocate for your own kid. Make sure that at that age (12-14) the kids go to birthday parties and swimming and bike riding and get a chance to hang out with their friends and especially family events. And watch for signs of burn-out...and pull back. Know who the coaches are and make sure that you are all on the proverbial same page before you commit to playing for them. There are a lot of games to be played in high school and later and you want to make sure that your child will not only want to play, but is physically able to play.

And don't forget the "F" factor...F as in Fun.

Cong - Parents can be a big problem at any level.

We have definitely seen some pushy loud mouth parents who think their son is the next ---fill in famous player here---. I do think these kids will be burned out or turned off - not by the game or travel but by the heavy burden placed on them by their parents. Haven't we all seen and heard parents screaming at their child after errors? scary - sit far far away is my motto. (Maybe they feel empowered because of the money paid out?)

Play Baseball - I hope you sons are recovering well from surgery. Your point is well taken.

Playbaseball,
I thank you for your post and hope that more parents will listen to what your doctor told you.

I began reading the HSBBW in 2002 and began posting in 2003. I know we have many more readers, but I am just amazed that at least once a week, a parent comes on asking about specific questions about elbow and shoulder problems their players are having, not just HS players but younger as well.

The only thing that has changed since I first began posting has been the emergence of more and more travel teams for younger players. So I,along with others, assume injuries have to do with playing so young, too often.

About 3 years ago after my son's BF had TJS in college, his mom told me that Dr. Andrews was beginning to see the emergence of 9,10,11 year olds with serious injuries. That fact was challenged at that time, now we all know this to be true, just in what was posted above regarding what a doctor has said.

My son joined a travel team pre high school, but it was local travel, maybe the farthest being an hour away. And this travel team was an off shoot of his local rec league, allowed by the league. He did not join a travel team that traveled nationally until HS.
Yes, we were fortunate to have great talent here, so meeting up with the same teams over and over, may have been a bit boring at times but was for the sheer purpose of playing for learning and having fun. Those are the developmental years and that is what it should be about, IMO. Our kids would sometimes take a beating, because they were not allowed to throw curveballs to WIN games. We were a very good team, and won on pitchers FB's and good hitting and good coaching. That is all my son ever threw at those ages, 2 seam, 4 seam and learned his change up early and location and he had success, he didn't dominate, but who really cared at that age?

Baseball is a game of skill, which takes years to learn and develop. We adopted the philososphy that our son could learn just by attending and watching baseball games in the off season and rest. The money spent to buy milb or MLB tickets was well worth the investment, better than traveling all over the country to play. Fortunetly, as a pitcher remained in good health to be able to get a good scholarship and drafted. Unfortunetly he is experiencing a minor setback, most likley due to his first and only complete game, after pitching a very long season. This is something else that upsets me, parents who are so proud of their pre high school pitchers complete games, with well over 100 pitches in the count, throwing the CB often. For those of you who feel this is important, well, I say, enjoy it while you can, someday you will look back and wish that game never took place. Same thing I am noticing in college ball, so many good pitchers doing over 100 innings a year with high pitch counts. Freshman year is a developmental year, and innings should be gradual year to year. Make sure you make that a priority in your recruiting. A few years ago I watched a nationally ranked team keep a pitcher out for well over 100 pitches, first month of the season. That was enough for me to decide my son wasn't going to go there. As it is, I feel he put in too much his freshman year but that was why he didn't go to the cape his first summer but rested.

If parents and players look upon their travel experience, their many showcase experiences, their many camp experiences for fun, that's good, if it is looked upon as investment, that's not a good thing, especially for pitchers, I cannot speak for position players. However, most younger players will pitch and play other positions. So the arm is getting a double whammy in the scheme of things. As a young player, being developed as a pitcher he would play first or play CF (8,9,10,11 you don't see much but dandelions sometimes) and DH. He never once came from the mound to take another position or vice versa.

This is just my opinion, one parents opinion, and although I am a bit miffed at why my opinions or information sometimes shut down, this might be the most important thing I can convey to parents. Nothing counts, nothing, until your son reaches his last years in HS, senior summer for college commitment and then senior season for the draft. That's it. The object is for him to remain healthy and free from burn out. You do not have to break the bank because in the long run his talent, will get him where HE wants to be and should be, not playing tournaments at age 8-14.

We never had the wonderful experiences of LL World series, Cooperstown, Steamboat springs and all of the other national championships. In return, because son remained healthy we had other experiences that have had so much more meaning than what he did at 10,11,12. It may not have been the right way, but it worked for us and in the end for him as well.

NC ball - Good discussion...

Burnouts and "no fun" can happen at home too, as our son had a LL coach who burned everyone out. Travel ball didn't start until 14-15 high school Freshman year, and was never more than 2 hours away. It was a wonderful experience, because it was F..U..N. And it got better at age 15, as he traveled all across the country playing top flight competition at beautiful venues and won an AAU national championship. I truly believe that playing against the best makes for better players, but wait until they are in high school. All parents must be mindful of injury issues. I just shake my head when I hear about kids playing on multiple teams, and Dads bragging about complete games and high pitch counts, as if that proves anything other than their stupidity.

If "travel ball" means better coaching and fundamentals (not Daddyball and endless and expensive tournaments ) as well as significant playing time, then go for it. My advice is always to play on the highest level of baseball you can where you'll get playing time. Here's a way to check - how many "practice" days on your schedule? However, as your player gets older, he needs to condition more, not play more, and spend time developing the mental side of the game.

Basketball, s****r, and volleyball, among others (hockey?), are way ahead of baseball in terms of expensive travel, and multiple junior teams. Football teams and camps are everywhere. I am sure many of these parents also think it is a roadway to college or the pros. At least some of us have perspective on the HSBBW.

Here is my take.
Our summer ball for our boys has now been over for 2 weeks. Our boys 10, 13, 16 combined played in 235 games this spring summer. My wife and I looked at each other and ask, how did this happen? It is not as much fun for my wife and I as it used to be. When the summer begins to the end, we are just 2 farts in a whirlwind trying to figure out the next weekend.
So how did it happen? Well, it started when our oldest was 12. A travel team was put together that took the top players from several area rec leagues.
The team hit the road and traveled all over. It was an exceptional team with an 80+ game schedule losing only 6. It was fun, memorable and all good. The younger brothers watching big brother bring home those big shiny trophies pretty much sealed their fate. So son #2 starts travel ball at 11 and son #3 starts at 10. The boys do love it, and are not even close to being burned out. By the end of the season mom and dad are definitly burned out and need a rest.
Having been through this and watched before my eyes how the youth baseball landscape has changed, I agree with TPM. From a development standpoint, I don't think it matters much. 5 years ago I asked an ex MLB player (that was coaching a travel team) his opinion on travel ball. He said the HS coaches have told him the travel ball kids coming into their programs are much better than those that did not play travel ball. I took this as gospel and proceeded accordingly. What I believe now is that travel didn't make them better, they were better already and that's why they played travel ball.

Anyway, after much discussion about next year my wife and I will let the oldest play on a team that travels nationally (obvious reasons). For son #2 and #3 they will "play travel" ball but on teams that stay mostly local(we are lucky to have those options). I had this discussion with son #2 and #3
and they are ok with it. They will be allowed to play on a "real" travel team when they are 15yr and it really starts to matter.
For those that do travel < 15 I think it is great!, but do it for the right reasons, Do it because it is a freakin blast!
Something to keep in mind for those who are breaking the bank for your little Johnny to play travel ball "so he can face the best competition".
When it comes time 16,17 to play on a powerhouse team that can compete nationally. Will your kid be good enough to make that team?
In the end, the travel ball question has to be answered by the individual family. What is right for your family is the right answer on travel ball.
I think all of us have their own experiences to draw from and they are all different.

Some variables:
Money
Sponsors
Team Talent
Local Talent
Team objective
Player objective
Parents (do they get along)
A real coach or daddy coach
Time
Player committment
Parent committment

Hello folks, new member. My daughter plays college softball. My son is entering high school.

Before discussing travel and quantifying it's positives and negatives "travel" has to be defined. I find travel to be a definition of a team rather than a distance traveled to play. There are also various degrees of travel. At one end is the community team playing against other communities. I see this kind of ball as advanced rec ball. These team's rosters will be very similar to the local rec league all-star team.

On the other extreme are the heavily funded teams who's focus is recruiting and winning. These teams will recruit talent before they waste time developing it. In between these two ends of the spectrum are the teams designed to instruct and develop talent, the daddyball teams created so daddy can claim junior played travel and the academy teams who are willing to suck every last dime out of the parents with promises (they can't keep) of a baseball future.

Now that I've provided my view on types of travel teams, here's my view on the stages of baseball. There's preteen, early teen transition to the big field/prepping for high school ball, high school ball, and high school ball/possibly a college prospect.

In the preteen years I feel the only thing a kid gets out of playing is learning basic fundamentals, learning to compete and building a passion for the game. Being a stud on the small field whether it be a LL field or a USSSA 50/70 field with open bases, is not a guarantee of future success on the full size baseball field. Playing on open bases on the 50/70 is a limited advantage that quickly disappears as soon talented LL'ers learn how to play on open bases.

Playing 75-100 games as a preteen is not needed. There's a point where it stopps being experience and starts being a potential danger for Repetitive Stress Syndrome with growing bodies. My son played about 45 games between CR and community travel at ages nine and ten. At eleven and twelve he played 50-55 games between LL, LL all-stars and USSSA tournament travel.

Once a player hits the big field (60/90) if he desires to play high school ball he needs to find the best coaching and best competition he can find. In some areas rec ball may still be good, but in our area it's a disaster. The potential high school talent heads for USSSA or Junior Legion. The past two seasons my son has played 50 games for his travel team this spring and summer. He played another 12 for his middle school team. To me this is enough.

One of the mistakes many travel teams make is playing too many tournaments and not enough practice. We practiced twice a week for five months. The kids also got practice with their middle school teams. We played two tournaments a month. In the off weeks we had additional practices on the weekends. The goal of our travel team is to develop high school players. As a function of their talent and training the boys won two tournaments and made the semis in five others (10 total tournaments).

The world has changed. When I was a kid rec ball was quality ball. Kids had to make teams. There wasn't entitlement to make a team and play. My Babe Ruth (13-15) program had ten teams. Each year there would be openings for 50 new thirteen year olds. The BR league was fed by twelve LL's with four teams a peace. That means 144 LL all-stars were trying out and competing for 50 BR openings. The quality of the league was strong. Before anyone thinks the rest of the kids got stiffed out of playing, LL Jr's ran tryouts after the BR teams were announced. LL Jrs was a much weaker league. But it was a place for more kids to play.

As a kid between BR and BR all-stars we played about 35 games. We were also at the park playing all day long on our own. When my kids asked where I got my outfield training I told them the hundreds off pickup games I played in the summer. There isn't enough travel practice and games to equal the reps I got tracking balls in pickup games.

The cost of my son's travel experience the past two years (13U and 14U) has been about $450 plus the cost of gas to travel 45 miles on the weekends of tournaments. The 9U to 12U cost were much less. Then there's my daughter's 18U/G travel softball team ($$$). But that was high school and she got the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

quote:

Originally posted by TripleDad:
What I believe now is that travel didn't make them better, they were better already and that's why they played travel ball.

My son is entering high school. After having a killer 8th grade season the varsity coach invited him to the voluntary (sure) summer workouts. Through these workouts he's getting a varsity tryout as a freshman. I believe travel ball had a lot to do with it.

First a player has to have ability. The competition in 13U USSSA tournament ball prepped him for the big 8th grade season. He felt a majority of the middle school pitchers looked like batting practice. The best middle school pitchers he had faced in travel.

This year the best 14U pitchers he faced were throwing 80+. When my son went to the high school summer workouts, the high school pitchers throwing 82-85 didn't seem that fast to him. Had my son been playing rec ball facing 65-70 mph pitching this summer, the high school pitchers would probably have overwhelmed him.

I don't expect my son to make varsity as a freshman. He attends a large classification school in a fairly large state. But he has placed himself high on the varsity coach's radar screen for soph year. After talent I attribute it to the challenges he faced in USSSA travel and the training he received from a coaching staff with college and/or pro baseball experience and knowledge.

Most preadpolescent travel parents are laboring under false beliefs that include the necessity to play at the highest levels possible in order to progress up the ladder and if a few games are good a lot are better.

In my experience, playing more than rec ball prior to hitting the full sized diamond does nothing to impact the ability of a good athlete to play HS ball. Some of those on the bubble may play an extra year at HS due to their knowledge of the game and refined techniques. But ultimately, it is the players with the innate ability who will survive.

Once a player hits the full sized diamond, about age 13, he should play with and against the best players he can and with the best coaching available. Whether that turns out to be Legion/Jr. Legion or travel depends on a host of factors beyond the scope of this writing.

Very good topic.

I think the first thing that we need to do in this discussion is to differntiate between NATIONAL travel and LOCAL travel- the costs are vastly different...

The financial costs of the National travel are real. But local travel ball has been MOSTLY a positive in raising the quality of play in our region.

When I started a program 6 years ago, the reason was largely that the local leagues were not serving the needs of the better players. At all. The best players in the county were being used and abused and not taught. The players were coasting to victory on athletic ability and astronomical numbers of innings pitched.

Travel ball (at least in my area) was started as a way for some very skilled players to have more fun doing something they love and to get better.

For better teams- the "Major" level in our area- the level of play in travel ball is WAY above what can be found even in league all-stars in most places.

Travel ball has many faults too. Not going to go into all of them here.

The question I want to pose back to the board is this:

IF NONE OF THIS EXISTED, WHAT IS THE BEST FORMAT FOR (THE MOST TALENTED) YOUNG PLAYERS TO ENJOY THE GAME AND GROW THEIR SKILLS AS PLAYERS AND PEOPLE?

I have my thoughts, but would be interested to hear the chorus...

Cong wrote:

But lets face it. This is all about the parents. I have never heard 1 young player say: I really want to travel all over the state (or country) to play ball.... They just want to play ball! They usually don't care where. You don't hear them say.. Oh we need to play more games against tougher competition... this is the sound of parents not kids IMO!


Wow I really disagree with the second part of that paragraph. The kids I've coached (most of them) know the difference between a weak competition and strong. They get BORED playing weaker teams.

And most (not all) parents DO NOT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE. They can only tell if their child (or the team) is DOING WELL.

A year and a half ago, we had a 14-u team for which we held a "players only" conversation about which National tournament to try to attend. The kids were initially split between the "easier" and "harder" tournament, but eventually chose to play in the harder one, swayed by one kid's comment that "I want to play against the BEST."

The parents on the team were probably 90% in favor of going to the "easier" tournament.

So I just straight up disagree that players don't care about playing better competition.

I think the point Cong was making, at least this is how I interpreted it, is that kids at the 12-14 age level don't know what greater competition levels are. They only know what we expose them to. If they only play within an hour or two of home and say they want to play the best, it's the best of what they know exists. If they've traveled, they probably have a bit different perspective.

I'm still of the belief that traveling much more than an hour or two at these young ages is largely a waste. They can play plenty of good ball staying close enough to drive home at night. Yeah, it's nice to make a trip like we did to Cooperstown and I'd do that again. However, that trip was set up as much as a father/son week as it was with the intend to go win a tournament. We darn near did win the thing (We lost to Coach Merc's World Yacht Clippers team, 4-3) but the focus of the trip was to have a great time. Other than that, we stayed pretty local.

Let me just state that my comments are really about my experiences with much younger players... My son is only 14 so much of my experience has been since he was 10.

There is no way a 10 year old is thinking about playing tougher competition... He is thinking about that hotdog after the game

Well I agree with you cong regarding a 10-year old. To a 10-year old, the next town over is far away! At 12 maybe, and especially 13 and 14 the awareness level is higher.

However, 06catcherdad is right that they are only aware of the level of the play to which they are exposed. But isn't that an argument for exposing them to a higher level of play?

Having said that, I don't think you need to travel thousands of miles to see better competition. In most places, the tournaments are 1-2 hours away. If not, play up in age...

I actually agree with you that too much travel at young ages is generally more negative than positive.

No, it's not just about the level of play. How about these things:

Staying in a hotel, going swimming, being in the room with friends, walking around a mall, going to a new sporting goods store, playing on a better field, flying to a location to play, eating at pizza restaurants, amusement parks, sitting at the table with the team members instead of parents, getting to stay up a little later, playing video games, maybe staying at a hotel with a girls volleyball team, no homework!

Wait, I think I just described baseball all the way to the Major Leagues...

brod...I gotta' ask...what exactly is that anteater doing in your avatar?

Mr Wood - you are funny.

daque - I agree with your statement, "playing more than rec ball prior to hitting the full sized diamond does nothing to impact the ability...". However, playing only Rec ball impacts the way a player plays the game. I think too, that an average athlete who works hard and has a love of the game can be successful at the HS level as well. They may not go on, but who knows what coaches look for anyway?

These LLs on ESPN are on closed bases. Holding a runner on and not balking is a huge skill set. Stealing - good base running in general - is simply hard to come by. These kids are good ball players, and now they are going to have to relearn part of the game in only one season.

One more example is playing the outfield. In rec ball where everyone is accepted, the outfielders are usually not the better players - mainly because they could get hurt in the infield. In HS they need to be fast and agressive. So if a kid is moved from ss to of, they may feel insulted, (which happens all the time) plus they don't have the skills necessary to play the ball.

I'm not saying that little Johnny needs to be traveling at coach pitch, though it's out there, but kids need at least two seasons of real ball before hgh school. IMO

Seems like the biggest impact of travel is on the pitcher. I know there are inning restrictions in USSSA and Triple Crown. Our coaches use pitch counts too.

Mom: I figure that the majority of kids are on the full sized diamond at 13 or a year before HS ball. Which of the skills that you described in your post do you feel could not be learned in a year?

I once taight a LL pitcher the moves and other things necessary to pitch from the stretch in 30 minutes before he pitched as a "hired gun" on open bases. While not perfect, he did well and picked off two.

My point is that we are talking about innate ability trumping learned skills every time. And we are not teaching rocket science.

"Should Pre-High School players and teams be travelling so much?"

my 2 cents - it's all about the level of play

most community leagues are structured to accomodate the entire community youth, and as such coaches are forced to teach to the middle of the pack. many rec teams have 12-13 yr olds that cannot effectivly "play catch" to warm up.

this situation & flexibility caused the rapid growth of travel teams searching nearby communities for similar competition-

a SIDE EFFECT of the newfound flexibility was for SOME parents to start teams for reasons other than "pure youth baseball".

national baseball organizations noticed that of the thousands & thousands of players - many players had 2 parents & each had a checkbook - hence ... world series (w 40/teams), world championships, galactic championships, etc - YOU HOLD A CHAMPIONSHIP TOURNEY & THEY WILL COME

Looking back at my son's travel ball committments made him a better player. At 12 he played travel ball and it was the best decision he made. Currently plays ball at highschool and with that competitive experience he developed into a good player. Made Freshman and JV teams and was usually the stand out player. I don't think he would have done this is he stayed in his rec league.

After reading the additional posts, I have a some comments.

Seven years ago my oldest son was 12 and in his first year of travel baseball. He had a phenomenal coach. Travel baseball in this area was just getting started. This team played in a few tournaments, two out of town, but the balance of the games were scrimmages against other local teams. I enjoyed the scrimmages almost as much as the competitive games, for the coach, who acted as umpire on the mound, would stop the game after certain plays and teach the boys from each team what should have been done. Or he gave them an "atta boy" for making the right play. He actually taught them how to play the game within the context of the game, not just practicing drills. It was a pleasure to watch and with all of the experiences with our travel teams, much like TripleDad, I don't recall this ever happening. They learned so much and it was all positive. The emphasis was on learning, not just playing. Both of my sons were coached by this man and they say that he was the best teacher/coach they had.

My youngest daughter's softball team (10U) last year was good. They played in 108 games, including 11 tournaments and two national tourneys. Two national tournaments back to back is ridiculous and although I was very against it, I did not want to be the only parent to say that my daughter would not play. I would do so now, though. Her team had won all of the tourneys except the national ones, but came in 8 and 5 place in each of those and was the last remaining Midwest or east coast team. Please. I am not bragging about that. My point is that these little girls were all competitors, they loved to play and win, but playing the local teams was not fun for them. Beating a team 20-something to 1 or 2 was not fun, it was painful. It was a waste of time and very discouraging and dejecting for the other team...although had either of the coaches done what my boys' coach had done and taught the girls the game there would have been a purpose for it.

cong-- Sure, the hotel is fun. But not too many kids eat hot dogs after the game--not very healthy. They learned this from their health or wellness class at school. Definitely has changed my cooking and eating habits...bummer.

I've discovered that kids are competitive and some rise to it. So many are faced with competition not only with sports but in junior high or middle school--the Math team, Speech and Drama team, Geography Bee, Spelling Bee, Straight A Honor Roll, etc...Sports are a natural extension. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but this is what we have produced.


TPM: Great post.

No disrespect to Xtreme, but I agree with Cong. These kids who want better competition, they aren't the ones who sent for the tournament brochures, or searched the web to find the big tournament. We, adults, parents are the ones who show them the way. Once they've tasted it, they certainly want more and as Bee says, who wouldn't want all the experiences that go with it.
After coaching youth thru college, and playing with both college and past minor league players, my opinion is that the competition isn't as important until it been determined if the player can and will have a future at a high level, college or minors. Now, that doesn't mean we all don't want to see great baseball at all ages, it just isn't as important before high school.
Points are being made about rec leagues.
Here's my view. All types of talent used to try out for youth ball, and many didn't make it. The better players played and the others seeked out different forms of youth entertainment, and even without adult supervision.
Then, PC came along, and the L.L. said that all who wanted to play had to be allowed. Many teams were added. Many of the best players families were discouraged and looked for others venues and competition. Soon, every kid who would have made L.L. in the 80's and before (in other words, decent players) were getting on aau and travel teams formed by mostly parents who wanted more for their kid. Then they began hiring coaches who knew the game and could recruit, not necessarily teach. Soon after they were traveling the countryside as...Elite teams. I have been invited to so many of these tournaments to check out individual players, to see what I thouth of them, to see if I could help them. 98% of the time these kids are just average or below average players.
For goodness sake, whatever level they play at, lets just let them enjoy it before high school.

It may not be rocket science, but it is chess with sweat.

One of the many reasons baseball is The Perfect Game is because the situation changes with every pitch. Each position has a set of responsibilites, things he needs to be aware of, anticipations --- all in addition to the physical tools.

An OFer fast enough to judge the best line to a ball is of limited use of he doesn't know where the play is once he gets there. A pitcher who learned to pitch from the stretch in half hour won't be successful in picking anyone off if 1B is unaware or doesn't know how to lay down a quick tag.

Travel ball at 10 - 13 certainly isn't as esoteric as college ball. However, the 'between the ears' talent is starting to develop then just as much as the 'between the lines' talent.

Better competition makes for a better player...or weeds out players without the spirit. But the quality of the team as a whole is of more importance.

A pitcher with a great curve ball in the dirt isn't going to throw it to a catcher he can't trust to block. A catcher with a howitzer isn't going to throw to a MIF too scared to catch it or who can't make the tag. An OFer who doesn't understand the cutoff is going to discourage the IF from lining up. Without a team learning together, any given player who has the talent and drive to elevate his game will have to start thinking mid-play: can I risk throwing this when chances are he won't catch it? This is not a recipe for success, it's a recipe for frustration, discouragement, and maybe ultimately apathy.

If good players can sit back on their heels and still look good on a team, they're not learning and the fire can go out. Not from burn-out, but from lack of tending the fire.

I agree with baseballbum. Those early experiences lay a solid foundation for future success.

quote:

Then they began hiring coaches who knew the game and could recruit, not necessarily teach. Soon after they were traveling the countryside as...Elite teams. I have been invited to so many of these tournaments to check out individual players, to see what I thouth of them, to see if I could help them. 98% of the time these kids are just average or below average players.

98% of the time these kids are just average or below? Well then how can you describe these teams as Elite? How does an average or below average player play on an "Elite"team . Am I missing something here?