Stop Coddling The Parents

Not really sure what a 'modified' team is?

But I do think there is too much 'coddling' (as you say) of everyone. We had cuts in Jr. HS and I don't recall any damage to anyone who got cut. As you say, the kids move on, one way or another. Back then, so did the parents.

Quick story on 'cuts.' When I was a freshman in HS, I was trying out for the freshman basketball team (had made it in 7th and 8th grade). Well, I got cut. Coach did it halfway through a practice. Had to call my mom to come pick me up.

Conversation:
Me - "Mom, can you come pick me up from basketball, I got cut."
Mom - "Oh my, are you hurt bad? Is it a deep cut?"
Me - (Sigh)

...come to think of it, maybe I was irreparably damaged from that?!

Good story. The good thing is that most Mom's haven't changed much over the years.

Modified is usually 7th and 8th grade teams.

quote:

What are we teaching our kids when there is a no-cut policy? Nothing about the way that the real world operates.

next time you go to the dentist or the doctor you better hope they did not go to a school that let everybody in and had a no cut policy when it came to giving out degrees.

of course that is ridiculous but sooner or later these kids are going to have to make the grade. The longer we have the everybody gets a trophy mentality the worse it will become.

Interesting topic and welcome to the hsbbweb!

Just when you think you've seen all the topics, someone comes along and offers a new slant on something

I think if parents could control every outcome, they would. Thus, everyone wants their kid to play, bat third, start the championship game as a pitcher, play shortstop when they are not pitching, and have all-american teammates surrounding them so they can be on a winning team.

We get parents here who worry their kids aren't getting enough opportunities to pitch. Then, when they do get the opportunity, they worry if they are being overused and might become injured. I guess it's the parents job to worry.

Maybe a no-cut policy allows some to feel like they have one less thing to worry about by removing the fear and uncertainty of their kids having to face the realities of competition...

I think I have a differing view then most on here.

Way too much is made of the "every player gets a trophy" and "no cut" policies. The OP is right, this is more for moms and dads. Kids get it and it wont effect the way they grow up.

At my high school, football did not cut, while every other sport in the school did. Are you going to tell me that the football players were going to grow up with more entitlement issues then the rest of the athletes because of them not being cut? That is ridiculous. Again, the kids got it. The ones who stood on the sideline every Friday night and never played knew their place on the team. Same way the guy on the basketball team that never took off his warm ups.

I have heard the same argument over using a continuous batting order over batting just nine. The kid batting 12th out of 12 gets it that he is the worst hitter. It doesnt take him sitting the bench the whole game to realize this.

The kids get it, parents dont.

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The kids get it, parents dont.

That's it right there. They are usually a lot smarter and more perceptive than we think.

I am a believer in no cut policy when it is possible. Especially at the younger ages. To me it has nothing to do with parents. Parents can be a bigger problem with no cut, when you have more players you have more parents to deal with. I do understand it can't always work that way.

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next time you go to the dentist or the doctor you better hope they did not go to a school that let everybody in and had a no cut policy when it came to giving out degrees.

Will,

You make a good point. On the other hand, do we know who the best dentist or doctor is going to be in the 7th or 8th grade? I bet if we decided who the doctors would be in middle school, we would have missed a lot of great doctors. Getting a degree is something all together different.

I'm not for coddling kids or parents. I'm for giving kids as much opportunity as possible. It's not about toughness or the real world. If getting cut makes kids tougher and more ready for the real world... do the kids who don't get cut miss out on this great benefit?

I'm guessing most who post here are not parents of kids who have been cut from their baseball team. Some, like yourself, have been coaches for a long time. I've been involved in cutting kids and it stinks. I never once felt that I was teaching them something important about life. I think some actually like this position of power. I know someone who says he really enjoys firing people. Hope I don't grow up to be like him.

quote:

On the other hand, do we know who the best dentist or doctor is going to be in the 7th or 8th grade? I

No

but you start getting an idea who the better baseball players will be

Good point.

Some good points by everyone.

They way that I am looking at this, is that in our town kids that don't make the little league 13u and 14u travel teams are getting cut. If they took the best 15 or so kids, the same ones who usually make the travel teams, and they played school modified it would open up slots for those second tier players.

I'm with PG Staff on this much, you can't say what will become of those 12 to 14 year old kids if they get a chance, grow a little and work hard.

Obviously this situation is unique to where I live, but I still maintain that the "fear of being cut" is hurting kids in the long run.

NYdad2017, understand the coddling issue I'm just trying to grasp what advantage you believe your school's program is missing out on by not having 60/90 for 7th & 8th graders.

All of the other teams in our conference, and there are 15 of them, have modified (7th & 8th grade) 60/90 baseball. Five days a week of conditioning, practicing and games comes with that. From watching the HS games and end-of-season results, I believe that part of the reason for the team's lack of success is their having to play catch up.

The emphasis is always on the self-esteem of the kid who gets cut. What about the highly motivated, driven athlete who leaves the sport because he is bored due to a lack of competition?
Don't forget about them!

BaseballByTheYard

quote:

What about the highly motivated, driven athlete who leaves the sport because he is bored due to a lack of competition?

meachrm,

Are there many of those types? Bryce Harper and others just went out and found better competition.

Do highly motivated, driven athletes, get bored and leave a sport they truly love? Guess I can see them going to a different sport, that they like more, if that is what you mean.

quote:

next time you go to the dentist or the doctor you better hope they did not go to a school that let everybody in and had a no cut policy when it came to giving out degrees.

Kids will be cut soon enough after high school.

I don't think they begin dentist cuts in high school.

Of course, if we are talking about 40 man rosters, you would have to cut half of them.

I think from the school's point of view, establishing a 'no-cut' policy gives them a way to deflect any criticism from parents of the kids that may ultimately get cut. Which in a way goes back to your comment about parents being coddled or prevented from getting angry, but from my experience parents will always find something to be upset about, if its not getting outright cut, it will the be playing time etc. I think the know cut policy can be a way for the school to avoid dealing with the parents complaints directly and moves them more towards the coaches.

Baseball in middle school? Dang, we are lucky to have any sports at all at our middle school and then the coaches are volunteer parents.

Of course when I was a kid in Jr. High (7th and 8th) they cut the funding to pay coaches so we didn't have sports teams that played against other schools.

I will say this about middle school. The kids are at that age where some mature faster than others so some of the kids that mature later are cut and lose interest in the sport. So in a way I can understand a no cut policy.

a highly motivated driven athlete won't quit because of weak compeition, he'll go find a higher level to play at. If he quits, he wasn't highly motivated to begin with.

quote:

Originally posted by meachrm:
The emphasis is always on the self-esteem of the kid who gets cut. What about the highly motivated, driven athlete who leaves the sport because he is bored due to a lack of competition?
Don't forget about them!

BaseballByTheYard

Don't know of any....

I would rather there be no program then introduce middle school kids to being cut so early. Many haven't hit a growth spurt while others have finished growing, that doesn't mean the kid that's 5'10" as an eighth grader won't be looking up to the guy that's 5'4" by the time they are seniors and end up the short guy for the rest of his life!

If you want that competition, go out and join a club team aimed at just what you are saying but middle school is a tough enough time to get through without someone's dad cutting you from a baseball team. I bet your high school would rather not have it's player pool thinned by dads before they take a look at them. Weak high school programs typically come when kids aren't getting good instruction the rest of the year....a middle schools job is to educate not teach baseball.

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Originally posted by CollegeParentNoMore:
a highly motivated driven athlete won't quit because of weak compeition, he'll go find a higher level to play at. If he quits, he wasn't highly motivated to begin with.

I agree. When kids quit they cite lots of reasons. They one they don't state is that they just don't love it enough anymore.

Every now and then someone makes the point that by middle school you can tell who will excel later. I just haven't seen it. Sure, there is some correlation in general, but it is hard to tell in 7th grade who will still be playing in 10th grade, much less who will be able to hit a curve ball.

That being said, cuts need to start some time as this is a fact of life. Sometimes a cut can be a great motivator.

All good points.
However, if the advice for the advanced, motivated kid is to just go out and find a club team to play on, why can't that same advice apply equally to the kids who are cut?

BaseballByTheYard

I do sometimes think we take the self esteem issue way to seriously, such as giving partipation trophies for just showing up. However, as it relates to cutting players who are just entering high school I do have a problem with that concept. I prefer having multiple teams such as 9th grade team, JV (A), JV (B) and one varsity team. This is how we used to do at the school my son attends until this year where because of budget cuts we had to cut the JV (B) team.

The reason being is that young boys don't all physically mature at the same time; and some boys are essentially redshirted when they are in kindegarten which allow them to mentally and physically mature in a manner that sometimes gives them an advantage when they enter high school because they are upwards of year older than their peers. This especially plays out when they participate in sports by being physically bigger than their peers.

By not cutting the players it gives the players who physically develop at a later age to compete. Many times the small 9th grader who would have been cut grows up to be the stud ball player where the physically bigger 9th grade stud ends up quiting or never gets much better. Just think of all of the young men who would have been taken out of the game because they matured at a slower rate(thier normal rate). The reality is that the vast majority of high school ball players will never have the chance to play beyond high school. Why rush that process for the under developed ball player who has potential.

Now for the ballplayer who really does not have the basic skills, I can understand that after a careful evaluation by the coach during tryouts it may make sense to cut that ball player. However, for the skilled ball player who is just undersized, I think it may be better to give him the opportunity to develop.

quote:

All good points.
However, if the advice for the advanced, motivated kid is to just go out and find a club team to play on, why can't that same advice apply equally to the kids who are cut?

Actually the same logic does apply. However, it does not apply equally. The Bryce Harper, Justin Upton, Prince Fielder types will be wanted by all the top level club teams. The kid who was cut from his junior HS team will only be wanted for his money in many cases. Or he might find it difficult to find a club team that will take him. This is where "rec" ball comes in, but there seems to be fewer and fewer "rec" leagues these days.

Actually it is really hard to compare the situation of the advanced kid with the situation of the kid being cut.

PGStaff, all valid points as usual.
There are no easy answers which is why we all struggle as coaches this time of year. My kids are too little but I'm sure it's even worse for parents.

BaseballByTheYard

When I see these kinds of threads I think ... You can make excuses or make your way. You can look at what are the alternatives. You can create an alternative. I know several kids playing college ball whose middle school did not have baseball teams.

Is it right or wrong the school doesn't have a team? Is it right or wrong they won't cut kid's if they have a team? There is no right or wrong. There are only alternate views. In the case of the posted situation the alternate is finding the best way to improve in the spring. I suggest travel ball.

Because many school in the Lehigh Valley area of PA dumped middle school baseball there was a very active spring travel schedule. If I had a whine, mine would be middle school ball was boring to watch compared to travel ball. But I enjoyed the social aspect of hanging with parents I've been around the baseball field for years.

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Originally posted by RJM:
In the case of the posted situation the alternate is finding the best way to improve in the spring. I suggest travel ball.

That is what my son has done, but most of the other kids in his school have not.

Meanwhile, I have watched as s***er and LAX has picked up the kids frustrated with the lack of, what is perceived to be, baseball opportunity. Both of those sports run multi-team, multi-season programs. Our LL has not adapted.

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There are no easy answers

meachrm,

I sure do agree with that.

NYdad2017, Is there any organized 13U 54/80 tournament ball in your area???

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Originally posted by NYdad2017:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
In the case of the posted situation the alternate is finding the best way to improve in the spring. I suggest travel ball.

That is what my son has done, but most of the other kids in his school have not.

Meanwhile, I have watched as s***er and LAX has picked up the kids frustrated with the lack of, what is perceived to be, baseball opportunity. Both of those sports run multi-team, multi-season programs. Our LL has not adapted.

S0ccer and lacrosse did not pick up players preceiving lack of baseball opportunity. Players are leaving because they don't see a future in baseball with their level of talent. The structure is just the excuse.

My son's middle school baseball team didn't have cuts per order of the principle. Equal play was also required. A kid could expect about 10 ABs over the course of the season. The following year when my son entered 7th grade all the best baseball players signed up for lacrosse. They had no intention of quitting baseball. Their plan was to play travel ball and return to school ball in high school. The high school varsity coach went to the AD and demanded there be cuts and earned playing time. The players returned.

WHO CODDLES PARENTS?----LILE IT OR NOT THEY HEAR WHAT THEY NEED TO HEAR FROM ME

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Originally posted by journey2:
NYdad2017, Is there any organized 13U 54/80 tournament ball in your area???

No. 11u and 12u can play 46/60 or 50/70. 13u and up is strictly 60/90 in both the leagues, which are mostly wood bat, and tournaments, which are a mix of wood, bbcor and senior league bats.

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Players are leaving because they don't see a future in baseball with their level of talent. The structure is just the excuse.

You may be right.

Around here, those two sports are offering more local training opportunity and playing time through their leagues.

Maybe it's also a matter of convenience for the parents.

Yes too mcuh coddling, and far too much coddling on this site. It seems everytime someone comes here to express frustration with a difficult, unfair, perceived unfair or otherwise distasteful situation many, not all but many comments are "stay strong, prove them wrong, if talented they cannot ignore you, keep your mouth shut, keep your chin up, keep working, put your nose to the grindstone" All great advice but lets temper it with reality. After telling them all that add "life aint fair, sometimes lemons just don't turn into lemonade, sometimes you can do everyting right and things still don't go your way, maybe your just not that talented, sorry the bosses brother got the job or the coaches son got the position, politics in sports as well in life are real and can be nasty. their are circumstances beyond your control so control what you can but realize you will likely be impacted greatly by what you cannot control."

seattlestars16

I don't view advice on the site such as:

"stay strong, prove them wrong, if talented they cannot ignore you, keep your mouth shut, keep your chin up, keep working, put your nose to the grindstone"

..as coddling. I think it is advice from athletes or exathletes who have felt rejection or failure only to persevere past it and win or achieve what they were told they wouldn't. A true athlete who loves to compete will not just give up just because as you put it:

...."things still don't go your way, maybe your just not that talented, sorry the bosses brother got the job or the coaches son got the position, politics in sports as well in life are real and can be nasty."

What is the alternative advise if not to encourage to keep working to achieve your goals? Give up because you suck. I don't see coddling at all on this site. I actually see alot of honesty and hard pills to swallow at times as advice being given out.

However I 100% agree with how you ended your post:

"their are circumstances beyond your control so control what you can but realize you will likely be impacted greatly by what you cannot control."

but what you can control is to "stay strong, prove them wrong, if talented they cannot ignore you, keep your mouth shut, keep your chin up, keep working, put your nose to the grindstone"

It's amazing what you could overcome and accomplish in baseball if you do just that.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

What are we teaching our kids when there is a no-cut policy? Nothing about the way that the real world operates.

next time you go to the dentist or the doctor you better hope they did not go to a school that let everybody in and had a no cut policy when it came to giving out degrees.

Apples and oranges...dentists don't get their training in 7th grade.

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...sooner or later these kids are going to have to make the grade.

Yep. But middle school is the last chance many of these kids will have to play the all American sport. High School is soon enough for reality.

Thank you Jimmy. Short,concise, to the point. And, IMO, on the money. Not sure I believe in "no cut" (actually pretty sure I don't) but everything requires context, and and grades 7-8, unless the size of the team gets unmanageable, why not? Like PG Staff said, opportunities=good.

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Originally posted by EdgarFan:
Thank you Jimmy. Short,concise, to the point. And, IMO, on the money. Not sure I believe in "no cut" (actually pretty sure I don't) but everything requires context, and and grades 7-8, unless the size of the team gets unmanageable, why not? Like PG Staff said, opportunities=good.

I think with the way school districts are going these days we will be lucky to have HS baseball in five years, much less baseball in middle schools. Middle school baseball has been long gone here, thankfully Babe Ruth and PONY have been here for the rec level (and some of the travel team level) teams otherwise there would be little for kids coming into high school.

Middle schools here now only offer basketball and s****r for the kids, both relatively low cost sports. Baseball and football have been gone for a while. The fields are still at the schools but are used for practices by PONY and Babe Ruth teams, at a cost. To be honest, I am suprised that there are still some middle schools with baseball teams.

Hate to see the budget cuts that are taking their toll on HS sports programs. Personally I'm not a fan of middle school baseball. "It is what it is." Can understand a parents desire for one's son to play middle school ball with his classmates, but too often its nothing more than activity ball "coached" by a teacher who is trying to manage a roster of 20 to 35 kids.

A little background about middle school ball in my state for kids playing in approximately 3/4 of the 6A programs feeder middle schools. The biggest classification schools are for the most part programs centered in Tulsa suburbs & OKC suburbs. The Tulsa area (east side) has next to no public school sponsored middle school baseball. Instead, through a local tournament organization, every year a dozen to as many as sixteen 8th grade age teams play in a early week night Super14 league out of a far north Tulsa. Teams playing are for the most part 14U tournament teams or the half dozen created 8th grade "school" teams playing for their future HS. It should be noted, the parents of 8th graders playing on these east side "school" teams usually pay a hefty price which goes to the sponsoring high schools baseball program.

As a comparison, on the west side (OKC suburbs), quite a few districts have no cost middle school baseball. Parents pay for a hat & maybe some pants & that's about it. Like the pay to play "school" teams on the east side in the aforementioned Super14 league, middle school baseball games are usually not that good. For many of these sign-up middle school teams, its a mix of players who haven't picked up a bat since 9 or 10 taking the field with a mix of AAA & Majors tournament players who often play middle school ball along with tournament ball. The mix doesn't usually mesh very well, & there is very little teaching or reinforcing of proper mechanics going on in such middle school programs. Can't say there is a correlation, but 6A programs from the east side of the state have won the 6A HS championship every year since this class's creation in 1996. Many baseball parents & older youth coaches on the west side do not have a very high opinion of school sponsored middle school baseball. There are also the parents who subscribe to the thought that without it, something is missing.