Swarthmore restricting on campus to jrs. and srs. in Spring 2021

@Smitty28 posted:

Would small liberal arts D3 colleges have sports if the market didn't force them to?  It costs them money, it goes against the grain of what they are about academically, and many NARP students resent seeing athletes get preferred admissions.  

If they had a chance to flip the question to "Should we add sports next year?", as they do now, would they?  Could this be the beginning of the end of D3 sports?

NYTimes had an article about this just a few days ago:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/1...archResultPosition=1

It seems to go against the cutthroat recruit-and-play ethos that we all espouse on here.  My older son played club ultimate frisbee at college.  Now, those guys are athletes, they run for 4 straight hours a day during tournaments.  Took fall and spring trips, got to beat Arizona State (how many baseball sons have done that?!), trained all year.  He managed their money for one year, learned a lot about budgets, planning, etc.  Their main problem was getting field access, as the varsity teams had priority.

https://www.nytimes.com/intera...e-cases-tracker.html

Let it completely load.

AP, you beat me to it on the other article.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

Haven't seen any reports of students or staff overwhelming hospitals or having any significant issues other than the initial positives. Can you post some?

Why are you asking me for supporting documentation of a statement I didn't make?

If you'd like read about major universities sending kids home, closing dorms, quarantining students, etc. in response to outbreaks in order to prevent those significant issues, you can easily find many examples of that.

@MidAtlanticDad posted:

Yes, every rational person knows that 20 year-olds are very unlikely to be hospitalized or die from COVID-19. But these schools also have employees to consider; around 1 for every 4-6 students. They are also partners in their communities where those students live, shop, eat, etc. It would be wonderful if there were easy answers to this problem but there aren't any. Losing a year of sports will be personally devastating for many students, but most people who work in higher academics don't hold athletics in that same high regard.

Appalachian State just recently had a healthy basketball player die of Covid, so that CAN happen, too.

ETA: link to an article about the Appalachian State athlete's death that also reported two other college student deaths linked to Covid, including one football player:

https://www.insidehighered.com...rsity-call-adherence

Not saying it's going to happen often.  Just saying it can happen, and has.

@Smitty28 posted:

Would small liberal arts D3 colleges have sports if the market didn't force them to?  It costs them money, it goes against the grain of what they are about academically, and many NARP students resent seeing athletes get preferred admissions.  

This is a good question that doesn't get talked about enough. Heres my take...

I don't think it actually sets them back at all. Let's take Swarthmore for example, hovering around 70k a year in tuition. 37 rostered players last year + what I would assume is a few more who were cut. The baseball team alone is bringing in over 2.5 million to the school. They're probably operating on a budget of less than $250k.

The thing is it's almost necessary. There is some academic leeway for the best athletes, but the athletes at these schools are top students as well. If they were to cancel sports and Tufts doesn't, now you have good students who will choose another option. The goal is to make the school as attractive as possible to lure top students in. Certain extracurriculars make the school appealing. Radio club, LGBT, frats, philanthropy, etc. Baseball is no different. The idea is that if School A has a better reputation than school B, but school B has better sports. School B can lure the better student away from school A.

Now the argument against is that those student athlete spots would be filled by regular students and that is probably true. But they are regular students who probably would not have been accepted to the school, making them their second rate students taking away from the academic reputation of the school.

Regular students complaining about admissions when it comes to D2/3 schools have a leg to stand on. But at selective schools there may only be 3 or 4 kids who get thru admissions. At non selective schools, they can't complain because the school isn't selective to begin with. It's not an argument they're going to win and the argument has more to do with their disdain for athletes than it does the admission slots.

I don't think cutting sports is the way to go. I think saying - we're not going to travel more than X miles and only do 3 hotel stays a year - has to be the new way to go for schools with budget problems.

Many of the athletes at “non selective” schools would be at other places without...by the Way “non selective” is about as arrogant as it gets. Reference D1 bottom feeders referring to D3 players as rec level guys.

What other word do you want to use than "selective"?  You yourself have said that many schools need sports to attract students.  There's a big difference between that, and schools that admit 10% of their applicants - they don't need the athletes to fill their classes, they choose (select) to have them.

PA,

I agree with your logic and hope you are right.  I think sports adds a great dimension to the college experience, whether you play or just walk past the field, court, pool or whatever.  Sport brings life to a campus.  

However, we're seeing a strange race to shut down that started in March with Patriot and Ivy spring sports, then spread all the way to P5 football (thank heavens for the SEC and ACC for taking a stand and saying "enough"), and is continuing to spread to various D3 baseball leagues for next year.  Then Lasalle eliminates baseball.  It seems like the smaller schools in particular are falling all over themselves to shed sports.  I can only imagine that the conversations going on in college presidents' offices are more focused on "why keep sports" rather than "why cancel sports".

I don't mean to belabor the thoughts re: athletes getting preferential admissions treatment at some of the HA schools, but since there's gonna be no collegiate baseball for my two guys this spring, what the hell.

I just want to confirm PA Baseballs thoughts on athletes who actually get in to these schools and add some details.  

Even if the coach gets 5-7 slots each year the fact is only ONE of them is going to be in the 25%tile or lower statistically (for grades and test scores). The rest are all just as qualified, in the school's eyes, as any other top end admit.  These schools could fill their classes by admitting only 1600 SATs and 4.0 students.  But they don't just go after those kids because they're trying to appeal to a broader range of students. And those admitted kids-- athletes, musicians, theater kids, bonsai tree experts, and daughters of food truck vendors--are pretty sharp in their own right.

I am amazed at how talented my sons' teammates are when it comes to their academics. My older boy's fellow senior ball players include two future NASA scientists  (one of whom is the team's leading hitter), a molecular spectroscopy and quantum chemistry scientist (starting pitcher),  two guys landing positions with NYC financial firms  older than the school (another starting pitcher and his battery mate) , and two other guys (both starters) ending up at top end private equity firms in Boston.  They're a very tight group of guys all living in a big house two hours from campus, studying remotely and working out in the basement gym. Grinders all.

These guys were not admitted to Amherst (nor were players at any other school like it) just because of baseball.

I've been trying to understand why losing baseball is painful beyond its proportion. I'll get back to you on that.

@old_school posted:

Many of the athletes at “non selective” schools would be at other places without...by the Way “non selective” is about as arrogant as it gets. Reference D1 bottom feeders referring to D3 players as rec level guys.

There's nothing wrong with saying schools are more selective than others. Maybe instead of non selective I should have said less selective, but I thought my point would get across either way.

I don't care what the acceptance rate of your college is, you're either a competent functioning member of society or you're not. Arrogance not intended, I don't care if you go to Harvard or Southeast Northwest State. I resent the looking down on schools from both a baseball and academic perspective.

The reason that HA D3 schools have athletics in the first place is because it rounds a person out and makes them more attractive to potential employers.  I was with my son during the process of picking a school and we visited CalTech.  They were not a good team at the time and I asked the coach -- why does the school keep investing in baseball?  The feedback was then echoed elsewhere...  Job recruiters like the athletes coming out of these high academic schools far better than other students because they knew how to work together with other people.  They understood how to compete, how to fail and how to win.  HA school compete on their ability to place students into jobs or grad school.  

Except for the .05% of baseball players on this board -- the rest are going to stop playing after 4 years of college.  The entire point point is to have fun, to grow as an adult and be better prepared for the next 40 years of their life in the working world.  Which in my opinion (I have a senior ballplayer at a HA D3)  -- baseball has been wonderful at helping him get ready for the real world.  

What I don't get is if colleges can justify football -- where players get up close and personal every 30 seconds for three hours...  how can they say baseball isn't safe.  Granted, I get that its about $$ to the P5 schools.

Im just super pissed that we are in October and making decisions about what's going to happen in March and I am  really worried fear is the reason he may be robbed of his last year playing ball. I hope his school administration doesn't follow Swarthmore's lead.

Just my opinion.

Very sorry to hear that, Smoke. 

@MAM posted:

What I don't get is if colleges can justify football -- where players get up close and personal every 30 seconds for three hours...  how can they say baseball isn't safe.  Granted, I get that its about $$ to the P5 schools.

This is just my observation, something I have said before.

In these times, it's not just about putting players on a field. It takes a lot of planning day in and day out to keep players safe and a LOT of continuous testing. And players have to be seperated from the general school population. I think that a lot of baseball programs have learned from football programs but that isn't always going to work out.  Once the masks come off, in any sport, cases rise. And then you have to make a plan for quarantine. You can test and come out negative and feel sick that day. Plans and schedules change daily due to who is positive and who is negative.

If schools have not taken the time to work out a viable plan this fall, they can't send out the players on the field in spring.  It's not that simple. If you have less than 30 players on a team and half are sick you can't practice, you can't play. It's frustrating.

Look how crazy football has become, hard to get games in.

So if schools have not gotten in full  practice or games, how can you play in the spring?

I might be wrong, are HA D3 practicing? Are D3 schools in session practicing, testing?

@MAM posted:

The reason that HA D3 schools have athletics in the first place is because it rounds a person out and makes them more attractive to potential employers.  

I hear what you're saying, but I don't buy that for a second. A lot of programs have had sports since the early 1900s, I would say it's more rooted in tradition for many and that it is an extracurricular provided to  potential students.

CalTech would also be the extreme example. They barely have enough kids to field a team

Hey TPM -- Can't say for certain but at least at my son's school in Iowa -- they are doing small group practices/bullpens/scrimmages.  

PA, personally I'd rather see a well round kid from a HA than a super book smart kid only when I am hiring.  I don't care if they are from clubs, ultimate, or sports.  The point is the same.  HAs know that today's hiring managers want more well rounded kids.  

Amherst is practicing in small groups.  I think Middlebury is the same. Gov?  Swarthmore is not, but Coach Midkiff has managed to schedule a camp this weekend for prospective players.  In Delaware.  He gets most of his recruits through his two fall camps so it's encouraging, in the long run, that he's keeping them going.

@TPM posted:

I might be wrong, are HA D3 practicing? Are D3 schools in session practicing, testing?

My sons HA D3 is not practicing.  There are no students on campus and everyone is online.

The coaches sent workout plans for the players to follow as best they can while at home.  They also sent out one of those bat swing gizmo's to all the hitters that tracks your swing.  They have weekly zoom calls and discuss how their swings look and what to possibly try working on.  

@smokeminside posted:

Amherst is practicing in small groups.  I think Middlebury is the same. Gov?  Swarthmore is not, but Coach Midkiff has managed to schedule a camp this weekend for prospective players.  In Delaware.  He gets most of his recruits through his two fall camps so it's encouraging, in the long run, that he's keeping them going.

Doesn't Amherst have a bubble attached to one dorm that is housing those on campus?

Quick clarifying update -- At Grinnell -- there are 10+ seniors living right off campus in two houses.  They are the only one practicing together and are self-organizing their practices with direction/plans given remotely from the coaching staff.  The campus is still closed with no one in the dorms.

@MAM posted:

PA, personally I'd rather see a well round kid from a HA than a super book smart kid only when I am hiring.  I don't care if they are from clubs, ultimate, or sports.  The point is the same.  HAs know that today's hiring managers want more well rounded kids.  

A cousin of mine graduated PBK from (as she calls it) one of the more prestigious Ivies. Her brother, his wife and my daughter each graduated from one of those “less prestigious” Ivies. She’s incredibly book smart. But she couldn’t find her way of a paper bag if pointed towards the daylight. She’s also the least successful professionally of all of us.

Holy Cross just now from President:  I want to reiterate that only serious community and state public health concerns will prevent us from being together on campus this spring. To understand any such concerns, we are monitoring the following metrics and trends, and how they relate to each other.

Holy Cross pulled the bait and switch in August (last minute) and the President has decided to retire after the school year perhaps from pressure.  I know he got a flood of negative emails (and yes some support).  This is such welcome news.  What about Patriot League baseball?  I hope they play but this is my daughter's school.  I  will come up to watch some stud Sophomore pitchers however and then head about 40 minutes east to watch my son play for his D3 if his shoulder improves....

If Holy Cross goes back everyone should. They are super conservative.

@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:

Holy Cross just now from President:  I want to reiterate that only serious community and state public health concerns will prevent us from being together on campus this spring. To understand any such concerns, we are monitoring the following metrics and trends, and how they relate to each other.

Holy Cross pulled the bait and switch in August (last minute) and the President has decided to retire after the school year perhaps from pressure.  I know he got a flood of negative emails (and yes some support).  This is such welcome news.  What about Patriot League baseball?  I hope they play but this is my daughter's school.  I  will come up to watch some stud Sophomore pitchers however and then head about 40 minutes east to watch my son play for his D3 if his shoulder improves....

If Holy Cross goes back everyone should. They are super conservative.

I have a feeling that the NCAA will change practice and start dates for all spring sports, if all goes well in the upcoming months, with infection rates.

JMO

@TPM posted:

I have a feeling that the NCAA will change practice and start dates for all spring sports, if all goes well in the upcoming months, with infection rates.

JMO

Do you think they will push back the entire season, including conference tournaments and CWS?  Or start later but end on time with a shortened season?  It would seem pretty disruptive to push the season into June or even July - summer ball, internships, etc would be impacted.

@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:

Holy Cross just now from President:  I want to reiterate that only serious community and state public health concerns will prevent us from being together on campus this spring. To understand any such concerns, we are monitoring the following metrics and trends, and how they relate to each other.

Holy Cross pulled the bait and switch in August (last minute) and the President has decided to retire after the school year perhaps from pressure.  I know he got a flood of negative emails (and yes some support).  This is such welcome news.  What about Patriot League baseball?  I hope they play but this is my daughter's school.  I  will come up to watch some stud Sophomore pitchers however and then head about 40 minutes east to watch my son play for his D3 if his shoulder improves....

If Holy Cross goes back everyone should. They are super conservative.

I actually give HC a pass on the August audible.  I think they earnestly wanted the kids back on campus then were over-ruled by data or "authorities".  It is easier to justify the cost when the kids are there.  They could have been more forthright by acknowledging that Zoom classes are inferior.  I was one of those who emailed the President pointing out that if online learning is so good, there is no reason to ever come back to campus.  But as far as the switcheroo, the decision is a thankless one, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The baseball team has canceled its UNC Wilmington and Florida pre-season series and will likely cancel University of Houston.  They hope to play some non-conference games against other nearby teams.  If there are no non-conference games, Patriot League coaches have discussed the possibility of two four-game series against each other for a total of 40 games.

I am very hopeful that at least the baseball team and other spring teams are on campus.  Basketball and other winter teams are on campus and it seems to have gone ok.  The plan is for basketball games begin in January, I think only league games.

@Texas1836 posted:

I actually give HC a pass on the August audible.  I think they earnestly wanted the kids back on campus then were over-ruled by data or "authorities".  It is easier to justify the cost when the kids are there.  They could have been more forthright by acknowledging that Zoom classes are inferior.  I was one of those who emailed the President pointing out that if online learning is so good, there is no reason to ever come back to campus.  But as far as the switcheroo, the decision is a thankless one, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I give them an F+ for August bait and switch.  The plus is for what you point out, damned if you do and damned if you don't.   Let's we just agree we will give them a low pass grade.....  I hope they play in spring sports too. 

@Smitty28 posted:

Do you think they will push back the entire season, including conference tournaments and CWS?  Or start later but end on time with a shortened season?  It would seem pretty disruptive to push the season into June or even July - summer ball, internships, etc would be impacted.

I had this discussion with a friend of mine whose son is also a coach, but in Ohio. We both agreed that the season may cut out the first month, as that is when cold weather programs fly out every weekend. That would shorten the season games. I am assuming it's a discussion that's already happening. We were having fun putting teams together...lol. Boredom.

I think that conference schedules will also be aligned as to geographical locations. For example, FAU would play FIU twice, UNC Charlotte might play OD twice. UTSA might play Rice twice,  Southern Miss, La Tech, just some possibilities. I believe that other conferences are working on the same premise. They HAVE to have a plan, not just business as usual. Probably would be a minimum to play conference championship.

Regardless, things will change, and it might not be just for next year.

JMO

I had to go into the city (Boston) yesterday for a doctor appointment. Massachusetts a very deep blue state. Boston is an even deeper blue city. The Boston Globe provides nothing but doom, gloom and death every day in the paper.

I decided to hang out in the city walking around. I hadn’t walked around since March. I walked from the North End to Mass Ave (almost to Kenmore Square) and back. In total I probably walked seven or eight miles.

Just so you know the mindset of the city in four  hours of walking around I only saw four people without masks. Three or four times people yelled at me for not wearing a mask even though I wasn’t within ten feet of anyone.

I laugh when I think I live in the most Republican congressional district (North Shore/Cape Ann) in the state. It’s only D+6. The D+6 doesn’t count all the registered Independents who consistently vote Democrat. Seth Mouton won in 2018 D+34.

I could register in District One in North Massachusetts, err Maine where the incumbent Democrat only won D+26.

Nescac HC saying 90% spring canceled. Majority of 2022 and 2023’s plan to gap year and reclassify. They’ll play ball in the summer and intern in the fall.

The majority of these boys hope to play as graduate transfers.

I’m encouraging snowboarding skiing in March.

live life once.

next

What I am hearing is that IF (a big IF) we play a season -- we will not have our typical Midwest D3 spring break trip to Florida or AZ.  We will also only play teams that are within driving range -- so no overnights.   I wonder what this will do to NCAA qualifying (if that even happens at D3 level this year) and the tournament.

Look -- If I could have one answered prayer... its that my senior son gets to play something that looks and/or feels close to a season one more time.  Heck, even one more competitive game.  The ending of last season was so sudden, so abrupt that is it feels wildly unfair.  Yes, life at time is unfair... still.  And if they need to cancel the season --  I hope they wait until the 11th hour to cancel anything.  

@MAM posted:

What I am hearing is that IF (a big IF) we play a season -- we will not have our typical Midwest D3 spring break trip to Florida or AZ.  We will also only play teams that are within driving range -- so no overnights.   I wonder what this will do to NCAA qualifying (if that even happens at D3 level this year) and the tournament.

Look -- If I could have one answered prayer... its that my senior son gets to play something that looks and/or feels close to a season one more time.  Heck, even one more competitive game.  The ending of last season was so sudden, so abrupt that is it feels wildly unfair.  Yes, life at time is unfair... still.  And if they need to cancel the season --  I hope they wait until the 11th hour to cancel anything.  

The school as well as conference more than likely are submitting plans which would include post season.

Students hate online classes.  My guess is that if colleges don't provide things that make being a student worthwhile, large numbers will not enroll in the spring - and not just the athletes.  Unless you're about to graduate, or you have financial aid that is better than a job (and maybe many do), why pay money for more online classes?

MAM, I really hope your son gets to play some baseball, even if it's not a normal season.

@TPM posted:

The school as well as conference more than likely are submitting plans which would include post season.

Plans are great.  I know that my son's school has plans for the Spring. I also know that the AD and the league have plans.  They had them for the fall too.  The question is will the county(s) allow them to implement their plans in the spring.  It's up to them, or, as permission is based on metrics like the daily rate of new infections, arguably it's up to the residents of the county and the everyday choices they make.

@JCG posted:

Plans are great.  I know that my son's school has plans for the Spring. I also know that the AD and the league have plans.  They had them for the fall too.  The question is will the county(s) allow them to implement their plans in the spring.  It's up to them, or, as permission is based on metrics like the daily rate of new infections, arguably it's up to the residents of the county and the everyday choices they make.

So from doing my homework, I found a plan FAU  submitted to the state of Florida to reopen in August. Then I heard that each sport had to submit plans to the AD and President.

Then I suppose that plans went to the city and county, which just recently recently went into phase 2 (Palm Beach County). The 3 South Florida counties are still very strict about wearing masks almost everywhere due to our senior population, even outside when not within 6 feet.

Despite what you hear about out Governor, cities and counties determine what's best for each. So not sure what your schools community would require.

I heard a podcast that Head Coach gave in the spring about the plans that were submitted to conference.

@MAM posted:

What I am hearing is that IF (a big IF) we play a season -- we will not have our typical Midwest D3 spring break trip to Florida or AZ.  We will also only play teams that are within driving range -- so no overnights.   I wonder what this will do to NCAA qualifying (if that even happens at D3 level this year) and the tournament.

I think TPM is correct that the school / conference likely submitting plans for the postseason.  My son's school, D3 too, was telling the kids that outside of playing conference games they will look to add other local D3's for NCAA qualifying purposes. 

@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:

I think TPM is correct that the school / conference likely submitting plans for the postseason.  My son's school, D3 too, was telling the kids that outside of playing conference games they will look to add other local D3's for NCAA qualifying purposes.

The coaches have to submit to their conference for approval who submits it to their NCAA division chair.  I would bet it's already done by most.

Swarthmore's athletics news just keeps getting worse and worse. Women's basketball coach (female) accused of abusive behavior, both sexual and otherwise.  Athletic Director resigns abruptly. Baseball coach sends families note reassuring them about cutting sports (none anticipated) but also acknowledging that that 21-22 baseball roster will be bigger than usual.  

Ugh, Ugh, Ugh.

@Smitty28 posted:

PA,

I agree with your logic and hope you are right.  I think sports adds a great dimension to the college experience, whether you play or just walk past the field, court, pool or whatever.  Sport brings life to a campus.  

However, we're seeing a strange race to shut down that started in March with Patriot and Ivy spring sports, then spread all the way to P5 football (thank heavens for the SEC and ACC for taking a stand and saying "enough"), and is continuing to spread to various D3 baseball leagues for next year.  Then Lasalle eliminates baseball.  It seems like the smaller schools in particular are falling all over themselves to shed sports.  I can only imagine that the conversations going on in college presidents' offices are more focused on "why keep sports" rather than "why cancel sports".

SEC wasn't going to leave the $$$ on the table.

https://www.cbssports.com/coll...r-school-in-2018-19/

Alabama 2019 Budget

La Salle 2019

@smokeminside posted:

Swarthmore's athletics news just keeps getting worse and worse. Women's basketball coach (female) accused of abusive behavior, both sexual and otherwise.  Athletic Director resigns abruptly. Baseball coach sends families note reassuring them about cutting sports (none anticipated) but also acknowledging that that 21-22 baseball roster will be bigger than usual.  

Ugh, Ugh, Ugh.

Wow!