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Tebow's eye black

ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
There need to be policies that either disallow everything except 'official' uniforms, or you simply can't allow some expressions while disallowing others. I'm a lot more conservative than many folks, but I simply can't argue with a straight face that people should be allowed to express themselves in certain ways, but not others.

Totally agree. I would argue that they disallow everything. It would be a bad idea to try and allow somethings while banning others imho. It would ultimately be unworkable imho. See my post above - nothing is absolute.
DB Danny Boydston1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
quote:
There need to be policies that either disallow everything except 'official' uniforms, or you simply can't allow some expressions while disallowing others. I'm a lot more conservative than many folks, but I simply can't argue with a straight face that people should be allowed to express themselves in certain ways, but not others.

Totally agree. I would argue that they disallow everything. It would be a bad idea to try and allow somethings while banning others imho. It would ultimately be unworkable imho. See my post above - nothing is absolute.

Agree, I think that's the point of this whole argument.
CPLZCPLZ1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Dad04:
Christians have been persecuted for 2000 years and the beat goes on.


I'll start here, but Dad04, I'm not singling you out.

Christians have also been some of histories biggest butchers in the last 2000 years. There are plenty of religions that can lay claim to persecution, many at the hands of Christians.

I have been a paid spokesman and promoter in my field for well over 15 years. In my little (emphasis on little) niche of business, my celebrity endorsements and opinions are somewhat influential. From that experience, I can tell you that the single most ineffective promotion is standing on the mountaintop and turning up the volume of constant noise. Nothing tunes people out faster. You don't reach people and connect with them in a meaningful manner that influences their lives by "wearing the logo of God", or any logo for that matter.

The most effective form of influence is attraction rather than promotion. If people want to be like you, they will ask, "how did you do it". At that point, people are captive and want to hear. Influence at that point can be tremendous because minds are open.

The zealousness that Tebow displays for his faith is a sign of his immaturity as much as a belief in his faith. If he had the experience to understand the negative ramifications of his display, he may question it and choose other tacts. I doubt 20 years from now you'll see Tebow sporting a LaCoste shirt on a golf course with God logos on it. He like most who evolve, will figure out that it is inappropriate and that inappropriate actions do more harm than good.

On a more personal note, displays like this are divisive. Many religions, on a most basic level have a philosophy of "my way or the highway". Quiet beliefs and worship show a respect for other people and their right to their beliefs and worship. Wearing your Gods logo is a bit more in your face.

While I can admire people for their actions that stem from their faith beliefs, I do also appreciate those that show respect for diversity.

I don't think it should be disallowed. People should be allowed to make any decision/mistake they wish as long as it causes no direct harm. JMHO's
Last edited by CPLZ
06catcherdad06catcherdad1,000+ posts
CD, I agree with what you're saying, and while I couldn't begin to tell you what the religious passage that Tebow referred to says, I can't logically find an arguement that he in any way harms anyone with it. It may offend some, but since when does being offended actually give one cause for action? In our society these days, way too many people think that they have a cause of action if they're offended. GET OVER IT, is what I have to say to those people. Lots of things offend many people, but that doesn't mean they should be outlawed.

I'm not an overly religious person, in fact many who know me would say I'm not very religious at all, but I do draw a distinction between displaying something one finds inspirational, or that one believes in, when it isn't harming anyone or referring to anything that would incite others to violence (and if anyone would like to post what that passage says, I'll gladly make my bet that it references something 'good' and not evil or promoting violence or hate) than I do when it promotes violence or hate. Like it or not, what bothers people about christian displays like Tebow made is that it makes the 'offended' uncomfortable for no reason that actually pertains to them. Tebow is religious, ok, I can live with that. If his religion espoused killing others for having different beliefs like some do, then I'd have a problem with it. The people who have a problem with this expression are the same groups of people who have issues with so much of what people do in society these days. They are control freaks who think that what they believe or support is what everyone should believe or support. They don't like people to view things differently than they do, and rather than accept that there are a wide variety of values and views, they want to legislate and litigate to force others to do things as they see fit.

If the ACLU wants to sue based on the arguement that public funding means Tebow and others can't express themselves, I hope that Tebow and anyone else who is muzzled sues the ACLU for suppresion of their civil liberties that are guaranteed by our constitution. Does public funding mean that anyone who attends the university can only express themselves in ways the ACLU see fit? THAT is suppresion of freedom of speech, religion, and thought. If that's the case, so much for our institutions of higher learning being places for developing better thinkers.
Tx-HuskerTx-Husker1,000+ posts
CPLZ...you're right about Christian history and the in your face thing. I hardly think what Tebow does is in your face. When he is interviewed, he's anything but in your face. Most importantly, he more than backs up his beliefs with actions. He's simply using the platform given to him to do what he thinks is important...in the face of people telling him he's a jerk for doing it. What he is doing and how he is handling himself is hardly a sign of immaturity.
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
I didn't say it doesn’t make me sorta cringe also, but I understand the context it is used. That is him though. He and his family are out front walking the walk every day, all day long. He has my approval, which he doesn't need or want, really. I certainly respect anyones opinion who disaproves.

He views the game as his "battle" and chooses to illustrate the support he feels at that time, in the fashion of the day.

quote:
Many religions, on a most basic level have a philosophy of "my way or the highway". Quiet beliefs and worship show a respect for other people and their right to their beliefs and worship. Wearing your Gods logo is a bit more in your face.


Is it ok to wear a crucifix around the neck at the plate or on the mound? Just checking...

If one person googles John 3:16 he is happy. I guarantee more than that did.
Last edited by Dad04
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion are very complex ideas in a free thinking society. There is not a clear cut answer nor is there a right answer.

Tim Tebow puts scriptures on his eyeblack but someone who is not religious says it's offensive - who's right?

Is it ok for Tebow to display this although ONE person is upset over it?

Is it ok to stop Tebow (and others) from displaying this because ONE person is upset over it?

There is no middle ground here.

So who should get their way?

Do we go with the how the majority of people feel about something?

Do we allow the government to establish which way the decision will go?

Do we allow everything and tell people who are offended to suck it up?

Do we allow nothing because someone may be offended?

If someone did have "Praise Allah" or "I hate (insert race / group)" what should be done to them? Should anything be done to them? Should the court of public opinion pass judgement?

You can sit here and say that only things that are in good taste should be allowed. Well then what is good taste? With a population over 300 million America has a lot of different tastes.

In the movie The American President starring Michael Douglas he gives a speech near the end of the movie that (in my opinion) does a good job of explaining freedom in America once you get past the Hollywood cover.

quote:
For the last couple of months, Senator Rumson has suggested that being president of this country was, to a certain extent, about character, and although I have not been willing to engage in his attacks on me, I've been here three years and three days, and I can tell you without hesitation: Being President of this country is entirely about character. For the record: yes, I am a card-carrying member of the ACLU. But the more important question is why aren't you, Bob? Now, this is an organization whose sole purpose is to defend the Bill of Rights, so it naturally begs the question: Why would a senator, his party's most powerful spokesman and a candidate for President, choose to reject upholding the Constitution? If you can answer that question, folks, then you're smarter than I am, because I didn't understand it until a few hours ago. America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free". I've known Bob Rumson for years, and I've been operating under the assumption that the reason Bob devotes so much time and energy to shouting at the rain was that he simply didn't get it. Well, I was wrong. Bob's problem isn't that he doesn't get it. Bob's problem is that he can't sell it! We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious people to solve them. And whatever your particular problem is, I promise you, Bob Rumson is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things and two things only: making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections. You gather a group of middle-aged, middle-class, middle-income voters who remember with longing an easier time, and you talk to them about family and American values and character. And wave an old photo of the President's girlfriend and you scream about patriotism and you tell them, she's to blame for their lot in life, and you go on television and you call her a *****. Sydney Ellen Wade has done nothing to you, Bob. She has done nothing but put herself through school, represent the interests of public school teachers, and lobby for the safety of our natural resources. You want a character debate, Bob? You better stick with me, 'cause Sydney Ellen Wade is way out of your league.
C CaBB1,000+ posts
You have all brought up interesting points that have really made me think (and that's hard).

However, when I see his eyeblack it reminds me of burgers and fries!! In CA there is a chain of fast food restaurants called In and Out Burgers. They are family owned and if you turn over their cups and other paper goods you will find "John 3:16" printed on the underside.
H HaverDad500+ posts
Not far from here, there was a recent thread about baseball players seeking to express their "individualism' via flat caps, long hair, pants up/down. This is no different than that.

They call it a "uniform" for a reason.

Like it or not, when ANY amature player makes a individual statement, of ANY sort, with his/her game appearance...... that player is calling attention to their "issue", or themselves, rather than the team.

Its another slippery slope. You don't have imagine a swastika or an evil 666, imagine the words "Obama" or "McCain" instead. If you endorse a "3:16" on the eye black, you must also allow an "Al Franken".

With the pros, corporate sponsorship and individual branding changes everything.
Last edited by HaverDad
CPLZCPLZ1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Dad04:
Is it ok to wear a crucifix around the neck at the plate or on the mound? Just checking...

If one person googles John 3:16 he is happy. I guarantee more than that did.


This goes right to the heart of my point.

It is absolutely ok to wear or display any religious sign/emblem, etc.

Would he be unhappy if he found out the ratio of people he influenced positively to people he infuenced negatively was 5:1 favoring negative?

At a later point in life, most people figure out that the ratio is the important figure. As a salesman, what good would it do you to attain one customer yet alienate 5 potentials? The pool of prospects is finite and maturity teaches us that the best, most effective tact, is a patient course that minimizes alienation.

TxHusker,
You've twisted my meaning a little bit, could be my fault for poor explanation. His immaturity is a lack of practical experience at learning effective influence, not childlike emotional behavior. That is one reason you don't see those same former athletes that had somewhat grandiose displays of faith on the sports platform, behaving similarly later in life. Their beliefs and message haven't changed, the delivery method has matured and evolved.
Last edited by CPLZ
Tx-HuskerTx-Husker1,000+ posts
quote:
In and Out Burgers. They are family owned and if you turn over their cups and other paper goods you will find "John 3:16" printed on the underside.


I didn't know that, CaBB....they make great burgers and fries tho. In a similiar, but less obvious way, Chic-Fil-A doesn't stay open on Sundays (sabath).

Bottom line is all laws are based on rights/responsibilities. One person's right, is another person's responsibility to tollerate...and vis versa. There has to be a reasonableness test applied, but gosh for being a "diverse" society we sure have gotten awfully intollerant and willing to trample on other people's rights, don't you think?
Tx-HuskerTx-Husker1,000+ posts
CPLZ...I follow. Didn't intend to twist your meaning. I suspect if he turned off 5 for every 1 he influenced in a positive way, he wouldn't be happy about that at all and would change his behavior....which would be a sign of maturity and learning. I don't know the kid, but he seems to have a pretty good head on his shoulders.

But I don't think that ratio is anywhere close to how people not previously locked into a position would have been influenced. I would guess there are as many who hate his actions as love it, and both are dwarfed by those who don't care.
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CPLZ:
quote:
Originally posted by Dad04:
Is it ok to wear a crucifix around the neck at the plate or on the mound? Just checking...

If one person googles John 3:16 he is happy. I guarantee more than that did.



This goes right to the heart of my point.

It is absolutely ok to wear or display any religious sign/emblem, etc.

Would he be unhappy if he found out the ratio of people he influenced positively to people he infuenced negatively was 5:1 favoring negative?

I think he would be happy 20% liked the message.

TxHusker,
You've twisted my meaning a little bit, could be my fault for poor explanation. His immaturity is a lack of practical experience at learning effective influence, not childlike emotional behavior.


Yes, he 22 years old. I think he handles himself as one way beyond his years. He consistently wills his team to victory and shoulders the blame when they (rarely) lose. If you will excuse me, I am detecting a sense of hating on him. Excuse the expression, but he walks on water around here. Lee Corso called him one of the five best college players...ever. I guess there is always going to be tugging on Supermans cape.
Last edited by Dad04
CPLZCPLZ1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Dad04:
Yes, he 22 years old. I think he handles himself as one way beyond his years. He consistently wills his team to victory and shoulders the blame when they (rarely) lose. If you will excuse me, I am detecting a sense of hating on him.


If I gave that sense, it was inadvertant. I have tremendous respect for what I know of him and his accomplishments. If he were my son I don't know if I could be prouder.

But...(you knew that was coming, didn't you Smile) we all know that no one's perfect, (except my sons Big Grin...mostly Big Grin)
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Yes, he 22 years old. I think he handles himself as one way beyond his years. He consistently wills his team to victory and shoulders the blame when they (rarely) lose. If you will excuse me, I am detecting a sense of hating on him. Excuse the expression, but he walks on water around here. Lee Corso called him one of the five best college players...ever. I guess there is always going to be tugging on Supermans cape.

Along with advising against tugging on Superman's cape, I would also advise against spitting in the wind Big Grin

Seriously, good point about Tebow - regardless of what his eyeblack says. His leadership skills are off the charts imho. The best leaders take the blame on themseleves when the team loses and pass out the credit to the team when they win.
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Dad04....it's hard not to measure a boy/man by the "would I be happy if my daughter brought him home" rule, and I would be thrilled...and that thrill has nothing to do with him playing college football.


I heard his dad speak at a large Gathering a year ago. The family is as humble as can be possible. I respect them greatly.
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
Its a football game. Its Florida vs OU. I fail to see how the verse on his eye black has anything to do with the game? I do not understand how you can be for this type of thing and at the same time if someone wrote "The Devil is Great" on their eye black you would oppose it. What prohibits anyone else from using their uniform , face etc as a way to express their views regardless of what those views are? Just because we are Christians and we love the verse and what it stands for does not mean we can be for it and against what others do. When you allow one person to do it you must allow others to do it. And the problem is who is going to determine what is acceptable and what it not?

Its a game. The uniform , body etc should be about Florida and OU and nothing else. What happens when every player has a verse of some kind on his face. Every player has a slogan or a saying drawn on his face. What stops someone who belongs to a gang that they believe is a religion to them from slapping gang signs on their face? Hey Tebow can express his views but I can not? Its a game , lets keep it a game. If Tim wants to preach after the game I am all for it.
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CPLZ:
quote:
Originally posted by Dad04:
Yes, he 22 years old. I think he handles himself as one way beyond his years. He consistently wills his team to victory and shoulders the blame when they (rarely) lose. If you will excuse me, I am detecting a sense of hating on him.


If I gave that sense, it was inadvertant. I have tremendous respect for what I know of him and his accomplishments. If he were my son I don't know if I could be prouder.

But...(you knew that was coming, didn't you Smile) we all know that no one's perfect, (except my sons Big Grin...mostly Big Grin)


There was just one perfect man and Tebow knows that ...and Him. Sorry, but you teed that one up pretty high. Smile
Last edited by Dad04
Tx-HuskerTx-Husker1,000+ posts
Dad04...I have heard similar things about Tebow's folks from others. I was lucky enough to hear Josh Hamilton speak when his book came out. He's a very impressive fellow, beyond his baseball skills. He's gone a much more difficult life path to get to where he is now. Well worth the listen if you get the chance. I recommend his book too...an interesting, quick read. He's a very matter of fact guy that doesn't throw it in your face...but there's no doubt what he believes in.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
I'm with Coach May on this. What if the face ad would have been.

G*y Pride

or if you had really big bloodshot eyes

Legalize marijuana

Besides the fact that there is someting about the "seperation of church and State" I think he got a free pass because of who he is. If the third stringer did the same, would he be asked to remove it?
Last edited by rz1
dad43dad431,000+ posts
Coach2709....as I was reading all the posts it got me thinking about one of my favorite movies and then came your post with Douglas speech...thanks I have always wanted to get the words to that speech..With all of that said I agbree with Coach May.....there are team uniforms for a reason and unless everyone is willing to accept anything, no matter how offensive it might be to someone, there we are better off keeping to the standards of a "team" uniform. I have a lot of respect for What Tebow stands for but I can't wait to hear and read about in the after game articles and interviews.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Don't know about the eye black, but Tebow is one unbelievabley fierce competitor. I get kind of tired of the "Superman" stuff, though.

Here is a question... Is the real Tim Tebow the one we see during interviews or the one who would get an unsportsmanlike penalty after the game was already wrapped up? Can they possibly be the same kid? I know he must be a great kid, but I would still pick the real Superman. There are thousands of great kids, this one just happens to be a great football player.

In fact, I actually thought that Percy Harvin was the difference in last nights game. Florida has a ton of talent and great coaching. Yes, it's pretty hard to find a leader any better than Tebow. However, Florida won it all a couple years ago with a different starting QB.

Note: Bobby Stoops was a HAWKEYE! Smile
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
I am sure God holds no rooting interest in the outcome.
This is my only issue with sports and religion. It annoys me when athletes state God helped them win the game. God doesn't care who wins. If God has any impact at all, it's the athlete's belief system may have given him the inner strength to compete. But there may be just as many players on the other team who believe. So it rally comes down to who can play.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
From what I gather Tebow does what he does because of his beliefs not for show or for any personal accolades. Blame that on the media.

The announcers were over the top on Tebow. They kept repeating and repeating the stuff. I was thinking his first name should be changed to Saint. His story is a great one until it's thrown at you for three hours.
Last edited by RJM
Tx-HuskerTx-Husker1,000+ posts
quote:
God doesn't care who wins.


RJM, To say He doesn't care is strong, but, I'll bet God gets a big belly laugh out of how important we make sports out to be! [sort of like we laugh at dogs chasing their own tail] I believe you are right in the indifference in the outcome. I'm sure He cares, however, about the process and how the game is played.
Last edited by Tx-Husker
J J.Weaver #5100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Here is a question... Is the real Tim Tebow the one we see during interviews or the one who would get an unsportsmanlike penalty after the game was already wrapped up? Can they possibly be the same kid?


Go back and look at how many unsportsmanlikes he had previously, I doubt there were many more, if any.

Everyone makes mistakes. Judging from his missions work, I am sure that the Tebow we see during the interviews is the real Tebow. I think it would be foolish to even question that.

I see no problem with the eyeblack with a personal message. I am a Christian like Tebow, and many other people on here. I know that if someone were to put a "Praise Allah" message on their eyeblack, as suggested before, I would disagree with their statement, but respect their decision to take such a strong public stance. I don't really see what all the fuss is about. I don't see it as that big of a deal at all.

As for whoever it was that raised the situation of someone putting "I hate so and so", this is completely irrelevant as that would be discriminating and based off of hate. Putting a Bible verse is nothing even close to that.

One last thing... CPLZ suggested that Tebow might change his decision to put the verse on his eyeblack if he knew that he were turning off 5 people to every 1 he made a positive impact on...

1.) I think that the majority of people would fall under either agreeing with Tebow or being indifferent rather than disagreeing as adamantly as some have here and
2.) The Bible says the reason Christians are on the Earth is to reach other people for Christ. It also says that we should present the Word and let others decide on if they want to pursue it or not. That is what Tebow is trying to do. He is not shoving his beliefs down anyone's throat. There is, IMO, nothing wrong with him using his status as a platform to voice his beliefs.

Sorry for the Bible references... I don't want to offend anyone.....
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