The #1 Myth About The Baseball Swing

Nice! I think you did a very good job explaining an efficient repeatable swing.

No prob, you're welcome!

Hey guys,

I've been getting a lot of good feedback on this video about the Myth about the Swing Down concept...Let me know if you can think of any other Myths about the baseball swing or questionable concepts about the swing and I will see if I can put another video together for you guys to differentiate between the Myths and the Non-Myths so you know what really works, or what the MLB players are really doing, not just what someone thinks they’re doing…which many times results in poor information being passed on to kids.

Vin

The #1 Myth About The Baseball Swing

I've never used youtube before, I'm not the most computer savvy, but I'll see if I can get my computer tech guy to change the format...Did you enjoy the video?

Vin

Vinny,

Not so fast here, you might wonder why the top batting instructors use this age old cue?

In coaching there is a classic effective trick of over extending a teach to get favorable results in difficult and previously ingrained bad mechanic.
Since we are built to drop the back side (barrel dump, Bow loop lead in) and drive up through the front side (corresponding wave Bow loop finish) batters tend to drive radically up through the ball putting it on the ground if contacted exactly at the back of the ball. Preferable contact is when the barrel vector and the ball vector have just slight miss direction with the barrel exiting just below the ball exit imparting backspin resulting in lift and carry. The Cue swing down is only intended to mean do not let you initial forwards drive force when and after you turn the corner to drop below your deltoid in a an initial dump that will have you up through the ball causing mostly top spin exit tendencies giving you ball dive not lift.

The Cue is worded incorrectly but if you try to swing down it still will still not happen but will fix the problem by way of over extending the initial drive timeline mechanic so that you can attain a straighter barrel path to the ball with as little contact upwards loop as possible.

Yardbird,

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you...I can guarantee you that Manny Ramirez arguably one of the best hitters in baseball does not speak or explain hitting in this kind of concept that you just did and I can guarantee you that he does have a slight upper cut to his swing...Check out this video on you tube of him...www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e7p6nvA6po

(In response to someone's question above I can access and click on a video in you tube, but don't know how to upload video on youtub)

Also I don't agree with everything the narrator says in the video but most of it is correct, such as the part on Manny Ramirez having a slight upper cut, which is the point I'm trying to get a cross.

Enjoy,

Vinny

manny ramirez swing analysis

Yardbird

with the exception of C. Lau which top hitting guy teaches to swing down?


(this thread should be in the hitting forum)

It's not that many people want you to actually swing downwards. It's a "swing thought" so to speak. What feels like swinging down is actually going to correct the dropping hands/backside issue for many.

But the problem is that too many kids are getting the wrong impression and are actually swinging down through the ball, not a good thing...

Vinny,

quote:

“I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you.”

This is a good thing, if you are willing to discuss it then all is good.

quote:

“I can guarantee you that Manny Ramirez arguably one of the best hitters in baseball does not speak or explain hitting in this kind of concept that you just did”

I can guarantee you that Manny Ramirez arguably could not teach a youth batter the first thing about what he is actually doing as seen in his many changes in his approach especially in his new Dodger one last year where his swing went upwards loop more from his new barrel dump.

quote:

I can guarantee you that he does have a slight upper cut to his swing”

Key word here slight in the past!

quote:

“Check out this video on you tube of him”

I have analyzed his varying approaches since he became shown.

quote:

”such as the part on Manny Ramirez having a slight upper cut, which is the point I'm trying to get a cross”

As long as this slight upper cut does not turn into a large one were OK but history has proven that this is a constant fight to maintain path to contact that the cue “swing down” to it cures by allowing you to pronate your forearm at the last 1/3 of the forwards barrel
path into contact that eliminates the excessive upper cut.

quote:

“But the problem is that too many kids are getting the wrong impression”

This is because internet diagnosers see a slight uppercut then proclaim you are supposed to voluntarily contract an uppercut and since we uppercut naturally already this belief exacerbates to much uppercut, then when they here an instructor say swing down, it means to them at contact. This was never a problem until the internet came into existence with it’s poor 30 frames a second grainy video that proved what these new Gurus believed, so now they teach voluntary uppercut, destroying swings daily.
You better rethink your game plan here?

quote:

“are actually swinging down through the ball, not a good thing”

These are only the ones that have other mechanical problems like getting out over the front side from a poor pivot. If you perform the pivot timely and correctly by keeping your weight evenly distributed and contact out in front depending on where the ball is placed in or out it is impossible to make contact with a downward strike, it is always slightly upwards even with the swing down cued. The difference is the kids that practice the downwards path create more backspin exit on the ball by pronating their forearm at contact.

JPontiac has it right!!!!!

Cball,

quote:

“with the exception of C. Lau which top hitting guy teaches to swing down?”

Defiantly not Upstein who is now finally getting it changing a few things.
The guys that have it right and do not bother to push perceived beliefs on the internet as though they have invented something that is new! Guys that are sitting on the bucket for a living and hands on teaching pros as pro roving batting coaches and many more at all levels and they all recognize that the barrel actually travels slightly up at contact with a backspin producing swing. depending on the balls altitude.
Here is one listen to what he says at the end of the video. Most understand this
http://www.youtube.com/user/Rightview1

Outstanding post Yardbird. Simply outstanding stuff. And I say that because I know it to be true from my experiences in the game. You simply hit the nail on the head.

quote:

This is because internet diagnosers see a slight uppercut then proclaim you are supposed to voluntarily contract an uppercut and since we uppercut naturally already this belief exacerbates to much uppercut, then when they here an instructor say swing down, it means to them at contact.

This is the nuttiest thing I have seen today. I guess Ted Williams is an Internet guru.

All MLB hitters use an uppercut swing. I feel sorry for anyone left that still teaches to swing down.

quote:

These are only the ones that have other mechanical problems like getting out over the front side from a poor pivot. If you perform the pivot timely and correctly by keeping your weight evenly distributed and contact out in front depending on where the ball is placed in or out it is impossible to make contact with a downward strike, it is always slightly upwards even with the swing down cued. The difference is the kids that practice the downwards path create more backspin exit on the ball by pronating their forearm at contact.

I take it back, this is the nuttiest thing.

You don't have to be any kind of guru at all. Even a 5 yo can see this is an uppercut.


Yet, many coaches still use a (level ball) 2 tee drill. What are you teaching?

/trying a blunt approach tonight

I did not take that comment the way you did Sultan. And I dont feel nearly as sorry for the instructors that teach swing down on the ball as I do the students who are being taught this as an approach.

That is what I call slight lift in the swing. Or loft as some scouts will say. Uppercut it is not. Uppercut will not produce that swing. But maybe we just have a different vocabulary.

Agree with Yardbird (ahhhh....run for the hills!) and Coach May on this. It isn't hard to see that most MLB hitters swing slightly up on the waist high pitch. There are also MLB hitters who uppercut. If we were looking at low outside fastballs we'd see a lot of MLB hitters swinging slightly down at contact, although not necessarily on purpose.

The cue of swinging down or swinging level is good for reducing an excessive uppercut as long as the instructor is careful to make sure it doesn't become a reality rather than just a cue. It was a cue that Ted Williams used when he was trying to correct an excessive uppercut in a young hitter.

My pet peeve in all this is those who are trying so hard to cut down on instructors who have been successful in teaching students with whatever cues they use simply because they can look at a student and suggest a change that will move them toward what works for that particular student. There's a big difference between knowing what the "correct" mechanics are and being a good instructor.

BTW, there are a few players, a minority to be certain, at every level who will get the best results from a level or even slightly downward swing.

It's fun to watch people rationalize that "down" really means "up". Only in baseball... we love our myths, and our myth-tellers.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
My pet peeve in all this is those who are trying so hard to cut down on instructors who have been successful in teaching students with whatever cues they use simply because they can look at a student and suggest a change that will move them toward what works for that particular student. There's a big difference between knowing what the "correct" mechanics are and being a good instructor.

CaDad, you are one of my favorites here. But, my pet peeve is when we gladly pass on these myths to hundreds of new youth coaches year after year, just so we can protect a few "hero" players or instructors who have been teaching the wrong thing. I'm a nobody, and I taught "swing down" (and worse) years ago, and I stopped doing it as soon as I realized I was wrong.

Maybe we need to host a celebrity rehab for chronic downers.

quote:

we gladly pass on these myths to hundreds of new youth coaches year after year, just so we can protect a few "hero" players or instructors who have been teaching the wrong thing.

"self teaching"

I am a believer of self teaching. Watch this video received by my son today. Robert is the SSK Promotions and Pablo is a client. He is swinging a 34.5" SSK maple bat.

http://pablosandoval48.com/index.cfm

Bob Williams

I have had a lot of problems understanding this swing down swing up argument. I guess I just always understood that the swing travels up matching the angle of the pitch before during and after contact. To get my swing moving upward, matching the downward angle of the pitch, and starting with my hands at upper chest level, I could only do one of two things. Drop my hands and swing with an uppercut or swing down. At no point did I ever believe that swinging down meant "down thru the ball". Once the top hand elbow locks to the body and the upper body opens up then the swing moves upward. Not opening up and disconnecting is the only way to keep the swing going down.

Again I always thought the swing down cue just meant "don't drop your hands". I do see though how someone that hears this, doesn't have a clue about the swing, and teaches it wrong can cause problems. I guess my hitting instructor (my dad) just knew what he was doing because as his student I always understood this.

One my favorite clips, Babe Ruth and a miss hit.

http://www.viddler.com/explore/perryhusband/videos/33

Sultanofswat,

quote:

“This is the nuttiest thing I have seen today. I guess Ted Williams is an Internet guru”

Ted was a dead pull hitter where all his swing we’re way out in front where bow loop exit is exacerbated and he still maintained his hand height at the turn.He could not handle low and away but that did not seem to enlighten many pitchers back then.

quote:

”All MLB hitters use an uppercut swing.”

This is far from accurate, very few lead in by dropping first! Giving you 90% of the barrels path heading down until contact.

quote:

“I feel sorry for anyone left that still teaches to swing down”

With a good start this cue need not be used and when it is the instructor need’s to explain why correctly.

quote:

“Even a 5 yo can see this is an uppercut”

But can someone over 5cyo keep from trying to prove their point with letter high examples.

quote:

What are you teaching?

The only reason coach May has my back here is because his butt has a permanently imbedded upside-down 5gal. imprinted in bass relief on it like mine and has seen enough ball exits and barrel paths to see how it really works not to mention he probably has swung a Fungo about ten to the sixth power times and felt how it works, experience has it's advantages.

I use different terminology but understand that even the poisonous cue “swing down” to it is inert and actually fixes many swing starts and really never ruins any.

CaDad,

quote:

“My pet peeve in all this is those who are trying so hard to cut down on instructors who have been successful in teaching students with whatever cues they use simply because they can look at a student and suggest a change that will move them toward what works for that particular student. There's a big difference between knowing what the "correct" mechanics are and being a good instructor.”

This is a Web gem!!!

quote:

“BTW, there are a few players, a minority to be certain, at every level who will get the best results from a level or even slightly downward swing.”

If you are trying to hit tape measure shots, down is king as with the LeBron of baseball!



coachscotty

quote:

“Not opening up and disconnecting is the only way to keep the swing going down”

Strong top hand pronation where the backside wrist continues inertia built up by early torso rotation then arm extention keeps it on path and is a better Kinetic chain than the disconnected isometric wristed all rotational believers insist on!

Vinny?

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:

If you are trying to hit tape measure shots, down is king as with the LeBron of baseball!

yard, a cage clip with a ball at the knees, hmmm. Do you normally model your swing after cage clips? Do we have any idea what he's working on here? His back foot action is completely different than his game swings (edit: after looking at this by frame, the back foot is OK at contact).

Here is Harper actually swinging at a ball a couple inches above his knees in a game this year, where he uses the same swing as MLB players (uppercut). See 0:21 mark - they even made a nice little yellow graphic to point out the swing path.

Okay this "he keeps the bat in the hitting zone" is ridiculous to me.
By that logic you should hit a golf ball really hard by keeping the club along the grass and running 15 yards.... Wow he keeps his club in the hitting zone for a long time...

Who cares? It's all about the moment of pop. Of course you swing up on a knee high pitch. Of course your hands go down to get your swing going (unless you are swinging at a neck high fastball.. Then go ahead and keep it level Jonny)

I don't remember my golf ball moving before I hit it. Now, it does some crazy things after I hit it

Sulty,

I watched the video and I have seen this kid many times and discussed him because my best friend since childhood is one of his batting instructors.I know what they work on!

quote:

"they even made a nice little yellow graphic to point out the swing path"

Unfortunately the nice little graphic does not match the swing path from start to finish! Watch the bat appear below the graphic loop in when it appears again at exit. If what you see is typical in all MLB batters? tells us much.

Vinny?

The pitch is belt high , better known as a c o c k shot. Give us a clip of a ball knee hit. The bat will go down lower and lift to get on plane with the pitch. In this clip take a look at the first red dot in front of his body where contact takes place. That is slight lift or loft in the swing to contact. It is not an uppercut. If he were making contact at the 2nd or 3rd dot out in front that would be an uppercut swing.

You must swing down to start the swing then get on plane. This is a perfect example of getting in the slot. Picture a pitch at the knees and imagine where the barrell would be on contact. Then imagine slight lift or loft on contact to drive the baseball. Pitch location does matter.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
Sulty,

I watched the video and I have seen this kid many times and discussed him because my best friend since childhood is one of his batting instructors.I know what they work on!

Well... what were they working on?

This whole thread makes my head hurt really really bad! What are we arguing over? Anyone who even knows what a baseball looks like knows that a batter swings through an arc first coming from a high position to a lower position and then generally back up into a high position again. Generally speaking, contact is made on a level plane at a 90 degree angle with his torso. This is what is meant by a level swing and making contact on that plane. If one were to draw a line from the front toe to the top of the head at contact then the bat should be on a plane at contact coming out at 90 degrees from that plane for most power.

This is the same principle as it applies to pitching. For most power a pitcher at release will have his arm extended at a perfect 90 degrees from his torso on a plane.

So, does the double tee work where they learn to swing downwards to the ball? No! It fails miserably because batters are learning to hit a ball on a downward plane. My son was taught this on a travel team and it took a little time trying to recorrect his swing and adjust his philosophy after that. So, how do you teach the proper swing? First- do nothing if they aren't doing anything wrong to begin with- that is the first mistake. Most kids have a natural swing. I always say- don't do un-natural drills.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Generally speaking, contact is made on a level plane at a 90 degree angle with his torso. This is what is meant by a level swing and making contact on that plane.

I agree that what you describe here is what most would call a "level swing". Is this a level swing?



Could this hitter use the 2 tee drill (where 2 tees are at the same height and you try to miss the ball in the back)?

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Generally speaking, contact is made on a level plane at a 90 degree angle with his torso. This is what is meant by a level swing and making contact on that plane.

I agree that what you describe here is what most would call a "level swing". Is this a level swing?



Could this hitter use the 2 tee drill (where 2 tees are at the same height and you try to miss the ball in the back)?

The batter in your post does have a level swing. It is a good depiction showing that at contact the plane of the bath barrel path is moving at a 90 degree angle in regards to the torso angle.

The two tee drill would not work- it never can work unless one is just working on pounding balls directly into the ground for some strange reason.

Note in the bat path that the only point where he is swinging down where one could place a tee is in the first part of the swing and that after that where he actually makes contact is like 3 feet past that point of downward movement.
So I guess if one was willing to place the two tees 3 feet apart he could achieve it- but what purpose would that do other than create a mental block for the batter to try to overcome.

One would have to place one tee in the third red dot location and the second one in the 5th red dot location and even then, the two tees are still basically the same height.

If one were to place the tees according to the common drill the would have to place the first tee at the 3rd red dot location and then the next tee at the very next red dot location. But this is not a good power position for a pitch over the heart of the plate. All this would teach is to pound ground balls back to the pitcher, and who wants that?

GM, I agree with everything you said there. I don't like to use the phrase "level swing" however, since most youth coaches and players think it means "level to the ground".

I went to a Chicago White Sox Training Academies hitting camp when I was very young. Each camper was given a booklet at the end of the camp with a fairly intensive review of the swing mechanics they advocated. I probably have it somewhere back home.

What sticks out to me is a visual depiction of swing path. The book said to imagine that the swing path is like a plane landing and then immediately taking off again. Obviously, one would make contact somewhere between the landed and taking off phase, depending on the trajectory you want the ball to be hit.

I also remember in their discussion of doing drills and tee work, they wrote that not everyone has to work on their swing and work on mechanics. The book said that every now and then, an Albert Belle comes along that can naturally hit the ball at an elite level. The book kindly suggested that the reader probably is not Albert Belle, and therefore needs to put in the work. Interesting that on a team that featured Frank Thomas, they use Albert Belle (who was then a Sox) as the example. However, the Big Hurt was used as an example as the White Sox that worked hardest on his swing, particularly doing tee work and soft toss. Belle may have been more of a "natural." Not that any of this last part pertains to the argument at hand, I thought it was funny.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
GM, I agree with everything you said there. I don't like to use the phrase "level swing" however, since most youth coaches and players think it means "level to the ground".

I agree with you there. Many think of a level swing as being level to the ground. For me personally it means to keep the bat path level with the plane of rotation. Keeping the weight back allows that plane to traject upwards at contact.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
GM, I agree with everything you said there. I don't like to use the phrase "level swing" however, since most youth coaches and players think it means "level to the ground".

I agree with you there. Many think of a level swing as being level to the ground. For me personally it means to keep the bat path level with the plane of rotation. Keeping the weight back allows that plane to traject upwards at contact.

Agree with both of you!

That's the whole philosophy at the place where I train. It's not a chopping action by swinging down, it's a gradual down hill swing plane that will get the bat head on top of the ball creating that backspin that will get the ball to take off. It keeps you in a strong position on your follow through.

Relationships between the athletes lower half and the trajectry of the swing is really what is at issue here, if you take a young athlete or weak player they will have a tendency to drop the bat head upon launch, there for leading to upwards travel at contact. Now if you have a mature hitter and they still have those habits one can adjust the path of the swing to a more down ward approach and actually get the swing to come thru on a plane that makes contact on the downwrd path of the swing thus producing a ball with the desired backspin.
The real problem is when you instruct a hitter to swing down tru the ball and they don't stay down with their legs, striding foward and coming to the frontside and swinging down will only drive the ball into the ground, but if the hitter will stay back and sit down on the back leg then the swing will actually plane out to the pitch if done right.
The actual result desired will determined the approach taken, a linedrive hitter will try to stay over the ball, where as a home run hitter will try to get loft in their swing, either way your approach will determine your result, I have seen many a hitter misws hit a linedrive approach and hit a HR due to the backspin and how hard they struck the ball, and have also seen many a hitter swing out of their shoes trying to jack the ball over the fence to hit a bleeder to the infield.
If I'm not mistaken Ichiro would have a drive down tru the ball swing and he has more hits than anyone in baseball over the last 10 yrs or so, and if you go back in time guys like Mike Schimt, Hank Aaron and Johnny Bench made contact with the ball on the down part of their swing, thus producing the backspin drive thaqt them HOF.
To each his own I say, but I will continue to teach my hitters to hit the top of the ball to stay over it and live with the results when they miss low.

quote:

Give us a clip of a ball knee hit.

I gotta say... To hit like Ichiro, you would have to run like Ichiro. Beating out ground balls is great but that approach won't work for many. That said Ichiro can and has hit some homeruns, anyone have a clip of him doing that. I would be interested in seeing that swing.