The good stuff.....

quote:

For most every High School aged player - getting your upper body into proper hitting position at front foot plant is important.

How you get there is not. IMO.

SAY WHAT? How you get there isn't important? Are you serious? Thats the problem with hitting today. Poor comments like this.

quote:

Actually - some load their shoulders against their stride alot - some very little - and some in between.

So what exactly does that mean?

Then follows it up with this comment! WOW

What is it your talking about? Is it a coil or a counter rotation that your talking about?

MLB players LOAD THE BODY. They don't load the hands. They load the body and then they unload the body, but ITSINTHEGAME says how you get there is not important! NOT ONE BIG LEAGUE HITTER WOULD AGREE WITH THAT STATEMENT!

quote:

And watching films of the best players will prove that. IMO.

Obviously someone hasn't been watching any, ITS!


Very good observation LEVEL about the knob. Its a sign that hitters keep the hands back and not the body back. That old saying "STAY BACK" is like "SQUISH THE BUG" a bad one!

Hitters coil the shoulder but they LOAD the body.

DOG, I agree hitters look like they are about to knock the cover off the ball before they actually do!

IT"S, your from the Carolina's, you know how to act better than this!

NY DAD, as you know. Guys have lots of stances/ style. But as they begin to prepare to swing all elite hitters move the body in a north,east,south and west fashion all at the same time to swing. They tilt the body, they pock the butt out more they have lateral movement and they also move down. They load the body. You know they are about to attack. They get to the READY MODE.

Something that ITSINTHEGAME says isn't important!

Oh YEAH DOG WELCOME BACK and where's PAPA when we need him!

Oh by the way, PUJOLS STRIDES

Vance,

It is refreshing to see you are so passionate about the subject.

As for the first point - we disagree - and thats OK.

On your second point - I was not talking about anything. I asked a question - and received no answer. All I received was yet another question - from you. LOL. Just like Bluedog.

Additionally - you mention a comment about hand loading. I believe my comment was that hitters load both shoulders and hands. You parsed my comment - and made it appear as if I said hitters load their hands only. That is either selective editing - or you cannot read well. Either way - not very nice.

Lastly - the Carolina's comment is a weird one IMO. If you are referring to my response to BlueDog - understand this please:

If he comes onto the site - and criticizes and/or insults posters (be they dads,moms,kids,etc...) - I will be there every single time to question his motivation and remind him that this is not what the site is about.

What that has to do with having a home in the Carolinas is beyond me. LOL Perhaps you can explain.



P.S. Typing in CAPS is unbecoming and gives the impression of desperation. IMO.

Its in the game,

quote:

Bluedog,

Nonsense. You went from loading shoulders (and not hands - mistake BTW) to "relaxing in the box".

A total diversion.

Then you claim to know what others across the USA "understand and comprehend". How exactly would you know that?

And then - as usual - you somehow come back to slamming coaches and dads. Of course - you had to add the preface "many who post on here".

A total BS post IMO. The same old same old.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
You hear this from many who post on here.....Coaches and Dads.....They do not understand and comprehend what forming a box with the hands, arms and shoulders while creating connection is all about....They do not understand and comprehend that load is tension


I agree, it is amazing watching High School hitters do what you describe....It is even more amazing how confident they seem to look when they swing and miss......They think they're doing it the right way....Why not, their coach says they are....


The question remains.

What is the agenda?

Why cant this poster participate in any discussion without a criticism of others on this site.

Is it because he has nothing useful to contribute? Is he just an angry dude? Or is he a cyber troll whose primary objective is to disrupt?

4 years of this nonsense. Consistent and unrelenting. HS coaches - college coaches - dads - players. A long laundry list of garbage.

Ask yourself this question.

When you post - do you do this?

Do you use your posting priviledges to denigrate others? Or do you try to offer your opinion to help others.

Ask yourself that question.

Then come back and try to defend this cyber entity.

DOG, said something to warrant these 2 responses from you? Just get on with the conversation at hand. Talk about the swing? What ITS have you offered other than
[QUOTE] For most every High School aged player - getting your upper body into proper hitting position at front foot plant is important.

How you get there is not. IMO. [/QUOTE

How a hitter rotates and how he gets to rotation is very important. How he gets there is the purpose of how efficient he can do it.

No where did I say you said just hands when loading. My studies say Hitters load the body and that they coil the shoulder.

My NC comment was becasue I thought people in NC were nice! You'll never learn the swing properly with your current disposition. You throw out as many non usable one liners as anybody.

Like How you get there isn't important. WELL, explain that, could you?

and my caps writing. Thats cause I'm yelling at you and because maybe you can see what your reading better!

Vance,

Here's the difference. I participate in many discussions - including hitting. I enjoy the different perspectives and sharing of ideas - until the insults begin.

Since you began on this site - you have taken the same approach as BlueDog - insulting people
on just about every topic. From showcasing to recruiting to hitting.

You appear not to have gotten in the spirit of this great site.

As for the hitting topics:
You guys are the self-proclaimed hitting experts.

Unfortunately - I just dont see it.
I know that frustrates you - and I'm sorry about that. Just the way it is.

Asking a million circular questions - playing with semantics - misquoting other posters - and criticizing and insulting anyone who disagrees with you. Just not very impressive at all.

ITS, I see your point. I speak from fact on the different subjects. Most parents here want to know what it is that happens on the other side. I am giving them that info from the other side. As for insults, your the ring leader. Dog, didn't insult anyone, he merely said "

quote:

High School, and other amateur hitters, are taught to relax in the stance.....Relax and get rid of the tension.....You hear this from many who post on here.....Coaches and Dads.....They do not understand and comprehend what forming a box with the hands, arms and shoulders while creating connection is all about....

Its, that is a true statement! Most coaches and Dads have no understanding and, like you, have no desire to try and comprehend what forming a box is. Nor do they understand connection or have a desire to learn what it is. Their stuck on what they were taught when they were young and have no desire to learn how it actually is. I feel your that way. You only want to discuss if you agree and insult when you don't.

Tell you what ITS, Explain the box and what it is and explain why its important and then define connection and why its important. Could you do that?

If you don't want to, WELLLLLL, then I rest my case.

If you enjoy the different perspectives then do so. JUST DON'T DO, what it is you say you don't like, INSULT.

Now share with me and us if you will the box and connection. Thanks

Vance,

Your silly cyber question and answer games wont work with me. Same as Bluedog. (And you left out the opening comments to this thread. Again - selective editing.)

I will repeat this - for your benefit.

I believe the site was created - and is maintained - with many objectives. A few really important ones are:

1) To help kids and parents navigate their way through the various youth baseball levels.
2) To discuss - respectfully - different opinions, perspectives and experiences on a large variety of baseball topics.

The site was not created - nor is it maintained - for it to be your (and BlueDog's) forum for denigrating showcase owners, scouts, coaches, parents, players - and just about everyone else that posts on this board.

You have done this from the first day you appeared on this site - as has Bluedog.

Every year - we get a few - like you - that can only make their point by criticizing and denigrating others. In any endeavor - be it baseball, business or anything else - these attempts are doomed to failure.

Most of our 8,000 members just ignore it.
I do not.

If you want to talk baseball - go right ahead.
If you want to denigrate others - or defend those that denigrate others, expect more of the same from me.

Many great hitters want to feel relaxed in the batters box. If you have ever heard George Brett talk, it is something he practiced all the time.........Why??? because as you start your swing tension will build up and you will firm up your grip and muscles as you near contact. The idea is to keep yourself relaxed up until the point that the swing starts. Being tense in the batters box for about 15 seconds before anything starts to happen is unproductive and makes no sense. SO......when you hear a great player talking about staying relaxed, it is about staying relaxed as long as he can before the tension of the swing and the moment arrive.

Same thing with great pitchers.....watch Maddux sometime and see how little tension there is until the moment of truth arrives.

Doug,

Thanks, I've been waiting a long time for someone to say that.

quote:

NY DAD, as you know. Guys have lots of stances/ style. But as they begin to prepare to swing all elite hitters move the body in a north,east,south and west fashion all at the same time to swing. They tilt the body, they pock the butt out more they have lateral movement and they also move down. They load the body. You know they are about to attack. They get to the READY MODE.

Agree completely...loading properly in getting into ideal launch position is essential and this is where the similarities are in big league hitters. However, these same hitters are able to to do this from a wide array of batting stances. Dog mentioned MLB hitters realize stance is a very important part of the hitting process and I'd like to hear more about this as I for the most part have considered stance and stride as being more a matter of personal preference. What are the tangibles in a stance that make it very important? Thanks.

See the ball hit it!!!!

Good advice and point bbscout. I agree.

Will, problem is there are tons of young hitters who are in such a bad stance and setup that they can't do what you say. The better the stance the easier it is to see and the easier it is to hit.

NYDAD, I'm right along with you. Stance is more a style thing. Something big league hitters can do and still get bat to the ball on time. The tangibles of a stance would be to put yourself in a position that requires as little waisted movement as possible. To me there is good movement and bad movement.

quote:

Originally posted by NYdad:

quote:

NY DAD, as you know. Guys have lots of stances/ style. But as they begin to prepare to swing all elite hitters move the body in a north,east,south and west fashion all at the same time to swing. They tilt the body, they pock the butt out more they have lateral movement and they also move down. They load the body. You know they are about to attack. They get to the READY MODE.

Agree completely...loading properly in getting into ideal launch position is essential and this is where the similarities are in big league hitters. However, these same hitters are able to to do this from a wide array of batting stances. Dog mentioned MLB hitters realize stance is a very important part of the hitting process and I'd like to hear more about this as I for the most part have considered stance and stride as being more a matter of personal preference. What are the tangibles in a stance that make it very important? Thanks.

Your stance is very important......a good example would be Barry Bonds and George Brett. Bonds is a pull hitter who stands close to the plate and strides back at the pitcher so that everything in the strike zone can be pulled. Brett excelled at driving balls to lt center and he stood further from the plate and his stride was to a closed poition making it more comfortable for him to drive the ball to lt center. Bonds is high on the HR list and Brett is high on the all time 2B list......their approach is a a good reason why they are on the respective lists of HR and 2B hitters.

The High School kids I have seen the last few years all seem to have no problem with their stance and balance at the plate - initially anyway.

The most prevalent - and obvious thing I see is that many do not load properly - and in some cases - do not load at all. Upper body, shoulders, hands close to stationary.

Just speculation here - but I think it has alot less to do with what they are being taught and alot more to do with the use of aluminum bats.

IMO.

quote:

Just speculation here - but I think it has alot less to do with what they are being taught and alot more to do with the use of aluminum bats.

I disagree...I think a lot of what they are being taught has a lot to do with aluminum bats.

NYDad,

You may be right - but it is difficult to know for sure what the hundreds of coaches in any given area are teaching - let alone the entire state or country for that matter.

I just think that the aluminum bat creates an almost "lazy" approach to hitting - and you can really see the difference when the players put wood in their hand. IMO.

Bbscout, being tense has a connotation that it is not a good thing.....However, me and you will just have to disagree as to what MLB hitters do pertaining to muscle tension in the swing process.....

We both know one must be careful to believe what MLB players say they do, as compared to what they actually do....

And, relaxed in the box can mean one thing to me and something entirely different to you, or someone else....

NYDAD, I agree with you. They are being taught to the aluminum bat. Let the aluminum supply the momentum.

The degree of pre-swing muscle tension would seem to vary based on the individual hitters approach. Guys like Pujlos and Manny who
pre-load shoulders appear to have much greater pre-swing muscle tension/resistance then say someone like Bonds who loads against his stride.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Bbscout, being tense has a connotation that it is not a good thing.....However, me and you will just have to disagree as to what MLB hitters do pertaining to muscle tension in the swing process.....

We both know one must be careful to believe what MLB players say they do, as compared to what they actually do....

And, relaxed in the box can mean one thing to me and something entirely different to you, or someone else....

Actually, what I am careful about is not what major leaguers say they do, but what non major leaguers think that major leaguers do.

If you have ever watched film of George Brett, you would notice that the bigger the moment, the more he would wiggle his fingers on the bat so as not to tense them up too soon.I taped him for 12 straight years and it was very noticeable. When asked about it, he said that he did it to keep the tension from coming in too soon. He said that when the heat was on he wanted to try easier as opposed to the kids who want to try harder in a high stress moment.

bbscout,

Another great one that comes to mind is Roberto Clemente.
He would go from what I considered to be a very relaxed position - to explosive tension - in a millisecond.

Offensively and defensively. IMO.

NYdad, all this talk of pre-load goes back to my attempt to get you to understand the relationsip of the back elbow in a high level swing.....And, understanding the importance of the stance......

Two things to consider...You cannot see muscles under a uniform....And, you can be loaded and not connected, just as you can be connected and not loaded...This pertains to hitting and throwing.....Do infielders catch, load and throw?......Or, do they load, catch and throw.....

To understand this stuff one must first understand that the back elbow does not "slot" in a high level hit or throw.....

Hey everyone, I apologize for starting something (at least joining in on something) and then running. I don't have the internet at home and I have a young lady that is playing ball everywhere. So...

bbscout, what was the year of those post of hitting? I believe that the one is of the All-Star Game in 03. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Anyone that follows the Cardinals would note that he doesn't look anything like either of those views now.

Please, if you have TIVO, and I don't, TIVO the swings of Pujos from Sportscenter or ESPN on his double or homerun from yesterday. You will note no stride. I stayed up all last night looking at it.

swingbuilder, you noted that I had sent you a clip of Pujos' swing but that you had that same swing with him striding just before. Please, post that and the clip I sent you for all of us to see.

Here is a clip of Pujos and I certainly can't determine any stride:

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro;jsessionid=ls57...&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

Well, I'm going to start a thread "The Good Stuff Part 2" to address some concerns. Great to see all of the good discussion.

Swingbuilder et.al. Thanks for making your contributions and the emails. Again please note that I have to be here at school to respond to any emails etc. I do appreciate the emails. Thanks!

quote:

If you have ever watched film of George Brett, you would notice that the bigger the moment, the more he would wiggle his fingers on the bat so as not to tense them up too soon.

Bbscout, if you want to believe wiggling his fingers has anything to do with the load in his hips and shoulders, well, O.K. then.......

There is loading properly and loading improperly.....

The big muscles load, the small muscles connect......

Too much tension in the small muscles can cause efficiency problems.....Just as thinking causes mental tension and stress......

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

If you have ever watched film of George Brett, you would notice that the bigger the moment, the more he would wiggle his fingers on the bat so as not to tense them up too soon.

Bbscout, if you want to believe wiggling his fingers has anything to do with the load in his hips and shoulders, well, O.K. then.......

I am not sure why you would try and put words in my mouth, but did I ever mention that what Brett was doing had anything to do with loading his hips or shoulders?? He was trying to keep tension out of his hands, wrists and arms for as long as possible.You should try it.....you might find something that works, even though it is not new to most people who have studied the swing for a long period of time.

quote:

Actually, what I am careful about is not what major leaguers say they do, but what non major leaguers think that major leaguers do.

Bbscout, this is the difference between me and you.....I'm not brainwashed....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

Actually, what I am careful about is not what major leaguers say they do, but what non major leaguers think that major leaguers do.

Bbscout, this is the difference between me and you.....I'm not brainwashed....

Brainwashing?

I thought we were discussing "relaxing in the box".

You claimed that all MLB players do not relax in the box.

You were presented with specific examples of Hall of Famers that did relax in the box.

What does that have to do with brainwashing.
I dont get it?

Hate getting off the topic, but the truth is we, and everyone in baseball, is brain washed to a certain extent.

We're just brainwashed differently!

quote:

We're just brainwashed differently!

I will reclassify my brainwashing statement, then.....Since I believe what you say to be true....

Bbscout, I am not brainwashed in the same way as you......

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Hate getting off the topic, but the truth is we, and everyone in baseball, is brain washed to a certain extent.

We're just brainwashed differently!

PG,

If you dont mind me asking - are you relaxed immediately prior to the brainwashing - or are you tensed up?

LOL

P.S. This is my feeble attempt to get back to the relaxed "thing".

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

We're just brainwashed differently!

I will reclassify my brainwashing statement, then.....Since I believe what you say to be true....

Bbscout, I am not brainwashed in the same way as you......

Thank goodness.

Very confusing. IMO.

One minute we are talking about being relaxed in the box - then POOF - the next minute we are talking about the Manchurian Candidate.

Very confusing.

The back elbow does slot as the shoulders rotate. What the back elbow doesn't do is TUCK into the backside hip or TUCK inside the hands. A good elbow is a slotted elbow not a tucked one!

Doesn't the rear elbow slot naturally as a result of rotation/connection/posture...or does it actually require some conscious/deliberate action/movement?

NY DAD, it should happen as you mention. It happens with the rotation.

But all to many times when a coach says "get your hands inside the ball" that and all those hitters in ear shot will Tuck the elbow and connect it to their sides so as to help keep the hands inside the ball.

The problem is there is to much teaching of a tucked elbow because everyone thinks thats a slotted elbow. But it's not.

Swing, where is the slot for the back elbow?

NYdad, you know?

Dog have you ever skipped any stones/rocks/clams/shells/or any number of other things on a pond?

Here is one hitter hitting three different pitch locations......The position of the rear elbow changes as the pitch location changes.....

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/analysis?p=2&n=1&m=20&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

Slotting naturally as a result of the swing without any conscious action/movement, not necessarily the same position.