The problem isn't the Little League World Series, it's that we watch it

RJM posted:

Shoveit4Ks posted:

It’s fun to watch although it’s not real baseball. 

It’s not real baseball. Baseball on a 50/70 field isn’t real baseball either. It’s kids playing baseball. Even kids who play 50/70 ball want to play in the LLWS. Given everyone used to play LL the LLWS is still a piece of Americana.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the LLWS popularity after two generations of a lot of kids didn’t play baseball and have the attention span of a gnat. It’s a concern of MLB. The average age of a regular MLB tv viewer is 55.

Then you may as well call Tee Ball, baseball. Regardless of dimensions, holding runners with leads while pitching from the stretch and stealing are all in real baseball. This is a different animal.

Shoveit4Ks posted:

RJM posted:

Shoveit4Ks posted:

It’s fun to watch although it’s not real baseball. 

It’s not real baseball. Baseball on a 50/70 field isn’t real baseball either. It’s kids playing baseball. Even kids who play 50/70 ball want to play in the LLWS. Given everyone used to play LL the LLWS is still a piece of Americana.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the LLWS popularity after two generations of a lot of kids didn’t play baseball and have the attention span of a gnat. It’s a concern of MLB. The average age of a regular MLB tv viewer is 55.

Then you may as well call Tee Ball, baseball. Regardless of dimensions, holding runners with leads while pitching from the stretch and stealing are all in real baseball. This is a different animal.

Until hitting the 60/90 field everything before it is an age appropriate compromise for the purpose of kids enjoying the game and learning the basics..

When you see the LLWS on tv it’s not the norm. They’re the best of the survivors of several tournaments. The average 12yo is 4’10”. The average 13yo is 5’3”. Everybody makes a team. It works for most everyone. Some kids are even overwhelmed on the 46/60 field. 

No one is making the high school team off their smaller field performance. In the long run the field and rules in preteen ball are irrelevant.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

The thing people don't understand is that these same kids play travel ball all summer....some of them on the top name travel teams we've all heard of for years.   ...

This is an important point.  My son's LL had travel teams at each age from 9-12 that played a handful of weekend tournaments during the spring LL season and the fall.  The rosters of those teams generally were almost identical to the all-star teams.  It was a good system--the ability to experience both LL and some travel ball kept a lot of good players in the league, and kids got to see some of both LL and travel ball.

The thing I don't like is that many kids (at least in my state) ONLY play LL during their 12 year-old year, and then only come to about half the regular season games.  There was a LL rule that required all-star players to have played about 50% of regular season games unless injured--so far as I know, that is still the case.  A lot of leagues appear to be recruiting kids to play on their 12s all-star teams by promising them a shot at Williamsport if they will just show up for the bare minimum number of LL games as 12 yr olds while still playing a full travel schedule.

IMO, the problem with Williamsport is that it is supposed to be a competition between real LL teams, but because of the hype adults can't resist cheating.  I'm not a fan of the idea of travel teams that fly kids in from around the country to play together on weekends.  But those teams aren't breaking any rules, and if they pound my kid's team at a PG event, then that's just how it goes.  The LLWS is supposed to be something different.  I have watched a couple of LLWS games at Williamsport.  It's an exciting atmosphere and it would have been really cool if my son could have played there.  But I choose not to watch on TV--it just seems overblown to see it on ESPN.  Clearly a lot of folks feel differently about that, which is perfectly OK with me. 

I don't get the disdain some here have for for LL.  My son had a great experience, and I coached his teams and others for years.  Part of the LL experience is learning to be teammates with kids of wiiiiiiiiidely varying abilities--you know, like adults have to do at work or in other aspects of life.  Some of the kids I coached or watched went on to D1 baseball.  Some played other sports in HS or college.  And some just weren't good athletes--but they had fun (most of them, anyhow), got some exercise, learned some life lessons...  I loved high-fiving the kid who had struck out every AB for his first 13 games of the season, but who was over the moon because he reached first on a squib grounder in the last regular season game of the year.  Baseball isn't just about trying to maximize your shot at making MLB, especially for kids who are still in elementary school.  

Chico Escuela posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

The thing people don't understand is that these same kids play travel ball all summer....some of them on the top name travel teams we've all heard of for years.   ...

This is an important point.  My son's LL had travel teams at each age from 9-12 that played a handful of weekend tournaments during the spring LL season and the fall.  The rosters of those teams generally were almost identical to the all-star teams.  It was a good system--the ability to experience both LL and some travel ball kept a lot of good players in the league, and kids got to see some of both LL and travel ball.

The thing I don't like is that many kids (at least in my state) ONLY play LL during their 12 year-old year, and then only come to about half the regular season games.  There was a LL rule that required all-star players to have played about 50% of regular season games unless injured--so far as I know, that is still the case.  A lot of leagues appear to be recruiting kids to play on their 12s all-star teams by promising them a shot at Williamsport if they will just show up for the bare minimum number of LL games as 12 yr olds while still playing a full travel schedule.

IMO, the problem with Williamsport is that it is supposed to be a competition between real LL teams, but because of the hype adults can't resist cheating.  I'm not a fan of the idea of travel teams that fly kids in from around the country to play together on weekends.  But those teams aren't breaking any rules, and if they pound my kid's team at a PG event, then that's just how it goes.  The LLWS is supposed to be something different.  I have watched a couple of LLWS games at Williamsport.  It's an exciting atmosphere and it would have been really cool if my son could have played there.  But I choose not to watch on TV--it just seems overblown to see it on ESPN.  Clearly a lot of folks feel differently about that, which is perfectly OK with me. 

I don't get the disdain some here have for for LL.  My son had a great experience, and I coached his teams and others for years.  Part of the LL experience is learning to be teammates with kids of wiiiiiiiiidely varying abilities--you know, like adults have to do at work or in other aspects of life.  Some of the kids I coached or watched went on to D1 baseball.  Some played other sports in HS or college.  And some just weren't good athletes--but they had fun (most of them, anyhow), got some exercise, learned some life lessons...  I loved high-fiving the kid who had struck out every AB for his first 13 games of the season, but who was over the moon because he reached first on a squib grounder in the last regular season game of the year.  Baseball isn't just about trying to maximize your shot at making MLB, especially for kids who are still in elementary school.  

I get that....but keep in mind, you still need to be from the LL District to play on the all star team.   My son played both travel and LL....he didn't make it to every game...but he made more than the required number.  If you took only the "full-time" LL kids and no part-timers who also played travel, you'd have a much different LLWS.  Heck, the kid from NY yesterday blew 3 easy fly balls to left in one inning....and he's on a team at the LLWS.  It was hard to watch....but would be even worse if you had 2 or 3 kids on a team doing that....like you see when you go to your local LL games.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

The thing people don't understand is that these same kids play travel ball all summer....some of them on the top name travel teams we've all heard of for years.   ...

This is an important point.  My son's LL had travel teams at each age from 9-12 that played a handful of weekend tournaments during the spring LL season and the fall.  The rosters of those teams generally were almost identical to the all-star teams.  It was a good system--the ability to experience both LL and some travel ball kept a lot of good players in the league, and kids got to see some of both LL and travel ball.

The thing I don't like is that many kids (at least in my state) ONLY play LL during their 12 year-old year, and then only come to about half the regular season games.  There was a LL rule that required all-star players to have played about 50% of regular season games unless injured--so far as I know, that is still the case.  A lot of leagues appear to be recruiting kids to play on their 12s all-star teams by promising them a shot at Williamsport if they will just show up for the bare minimum number of LL games as 12 yr olds while still playing a full travel schedule.

IMO, the problem with Williamsport is that it is supposed to be a competition between real LL teams, but because of the hype adults can't resist cheating.  I'm not a fan of the idea of travel teams that fly kids in from around the country to play together on weekends.  But those teams aren't breaking any rules, and if they pound my kid's team at a PG event, then that's just how it goes.  The LLWS is supposed to be something different.  I have watched a couple of LLWS games at Williamsport.  It's an exciting atmosphere and it would have been really cool if my son could have played there.  But I choose not to watch on TV--it just seems overblown to see it on ESPN.  Clearly a lot of folks feel differently about that, which is perfectly OK with me. 

I don't get the disdain some here have for for LL.  My son had a great experience, and I coached his teams and others for years.  Part of the LL experience is learning to be teammates with kids of wiiiiiiiiidely varying abilities--you know, like adults have to do at work or in other aspects of life.  Some of the kids I coached or watched went on to D1 baseball.  Some played other sports in HS or college.  And some just weren't good athletes--but they had fun (most of them, anyhow), got some exercise, learned some life lessons...  I loved high-fiving the kid who had struck out every AB for his first 13 games of the season, but who was over the moon because he reached first on a squib grounder in the last regular season game of the year.  Baseball isn't just about trying to maximize your shot at making MLB, especially for kids who are still in elementary school.  

I get that....but keep in mind, you still need to be from the LL District to play on the all star team.   My son played both travel and LL....he didn't make it to every game...but he made more than the required number.  If you took only the "full-time" LL kids and no part-timers who also played travel, you'd have a much different LLWS.  Heck, the kid from NY yesterday blew 3 easy fly balls to left in one inning....and he's on a team at the LLWS.  It was hard to watch....but would be even worse if you had 2 or 3 kids on a team doing that....like you see when you go to your local LL games.

I don't think we disagree.  Not all LLs create teams to give their players the option to play travel ball.  In my area most do, but that began within the last 6 to 8 years. 

My son missed a couple of LL games per season and a few practices because of travel soccer, which ended around the middle of the LL season as I recall.  His coaches weren't thrilled, but they understood he wanted to play both sports.  If his LL hadn't offered a travel baseball option, my son might have played on an outside baseball team and missed more LL games (or dropped LL altogether).  

My point is not that kids shouldn't be able to do both travel and LL, but that I don't like the idea of a kid with no real ties to a league essentially being recruited purely to play as a 12-y.o. all-star.  On the other hand, I think some 12s decide they want a shot at the LLWS and ESPN, so they just choose to play LL for one year.  That's not really what the LLWS is supposed to be about, but I wouldn't try to stop those kids (and maybe as adults they become supporters of LL).

My experience has been that any time you try to create a youth sports league or event designed to give less-than-top-tier talent an opportunity, you end up with kids who (arguably) are "ringers" and ought not to be playing at that level.  I see that issue crop up with kids on the varsity squad making spot starts on JV teams in my son's HS league, for example.  When the only rule is "put together the best team you can at a particular age" like at PG events, then the only potential cheating involves birth certificates, while the LLWS also has to deal with place of residence and participation in LL, among other potential ways to game the rules.   

Chico Escuela posted:

My son missed a couple of LL games per season and a few practices because of travel soccer, which ended around the middle of the LL season as I recall.  His coaches weren't thrilled, but they understood he wanted to play both sports. 

Just to add:  My son's travel soccer coaches were not understanding when he needed to miss soccer games for baseball, even as a 10- or 11-year old.  Ultimately that is a big reason he quit travel soccer (earlier than I would have liked, but I'm glad he chose baseball  .  And that's another plus to LL: it's generally a low-pressure environment.  Kids I coached missed the occasional game for soccer, hockey, swim meets, class field trips...  Some travel coaches would be ok with that, some would not; but at least in my son's LL, no coach would hold those absences against a player.

Chico Escuela posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

My son missed a couple of LL games per season and a few practices because of travel soccer, which ended around the middle of the LL season as I recall.  His coaches weren't thrilled, but they understood he wanted to play both sports. 

Just to add:  My son's travel soccer coaches were not understanding when he needed to miss soccer games for baseball, even as a 10- or 11-year old.  Ultimately that is a big reason he quit travel soccer (earlier than I would have liked, but I'm glad he chose baseball &nbsp.  And that's another plus to LL: it's generally a low-pressure environment.  Kids I coached missed the occasional game for soccer, hockey, swim meets, class field trips...  Some travel coaches would be ok with that, some would not; but at least in my son's LL, no coach would hold those absences against a player.

Chances are my son was a better soccer player than baseball player. He played both in high school. His focus was on baseball. He played travel in the summer and some fall ball. He worked out focused on baseball year round. He did attend an elite goalie camp during the day in the summer.

At U12 and U16 he was approached by very premier programs. The catch was they wanted him to quit all other sports, play soccer year round and not play high school soccer with his friends. At U12 I told them no way before it was a choice for my son. I don’t believe he would have chosen to quit baseball and basketball. At U16 he told them no way. Baseball mattered too much. 

RJM posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

My son missed a couple of LL games per season and a few practices because of travel soccer, which ended around the middle of the LL season as I recall.  His coaches weren't thrilled, but they understood he wanted to play both sports. 

Just to add:  My son's travel soccer coaches were not understanding when he needed to miss soccer games for baseball, even as a 10- or 11-year old.  Ultimately that is a big reason he quit travel soccer (earlier than I would have liked, but I'm glad he chose baseball &nbsp.  And that's another plus to LL: it's generally a low-pressure environment.  Kids I coached missed the occasional game for soccer, hockey, swim meets, class field trips...  Some travel coaches would be ok with that, some would not; but at least in my son's LL, no coach would hold those absences against a player.

Chances are my son was a better soccer player than baseball player. He played both in high school. His focus was on baseball. He played travel in the summer and some fall ball. He worked out focused on baseball year round. He did attend an elite goalie camp during the day in the summer.

At U12 and U16 he was approached by very premier programs. The catch was they wanted him to quit all other sports, play soccer year round and not play high school soccer with his friends. At U12 I told them no way before it was a choice for my son. I don’t believe he would have chosen to quit baseball and basketball. At U16 he told them no way. Baseball mattered too much. 

Sounds familiar...  My daughter's main sport was soccer, so I spent a lot of time in that world.  Both my kids got pressure starting from age 9 to quit other sports and play and train for soccer 12 months a year.  These were competitive programs, but no one had any illusions that their teams were stocked with future Olympians.  A lot of things about youth baseball strike me as over the top, but soccer was far worse (and more expensive) in my experience.  

Soccer is so crazy.  The daughter of a friend of mine is an an elite player who committed to a Pac 12 school over a year ago.  She's already played in 2 international events this year, plus a few around the US.  I can't even imagine how much they spend on travel  for her. And the scary part is that she's got 2 younger sisters!

DIGGUM, we tried with my oldest two sons and it was a disaster.  They threw too hard, they might hit somebody, the swing too hard, they are too competitive, it's not fair having them together on a team, and on and on and on.  It was a joke when you are trying to play against a team that has no one who can throw a strike or if they could it was 50 mph when they were seeing 75 in travel ball.  That is why players leave LL.  I know there are a few competitive leagues where it is worth it but that is not the case in most small towns.  it is a joke.  It has a place but just not in the competitive conversation.  Not mentioning all the local politics that come into play.  The good ole boy system where the guy who knows nothing about baseball other than he watches the Braves has been a coach for 30 years.  And he is the president so he gets the first pick each year.  Again, I know there are a few that do it right but they are the freak not the ordinary. 

I also believe the world has changed and so many of those kids who play only LL all the way until 14 are way behind when it comes to being able to be competitive.  So many of them cannot make a MS or HS team because they do not know how to pick-off or get a lead or swing a bat and the homeruns they hit in LL drop in front of the outfielders in travel ball or MS.  Or like several they are not athletic enough to play on the big field. 

Again, LL has it's place and that is as a recreational event but don't make it out to be a competitive baseball league or that those players in the LL WS are the best 12 or 13 year olds out there.  There are a few but most could not even make a top travel team roster.

Chico Escuela posted:

RJM posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

My son missed a couple of LL games per season and a few practices because of travel soccer, which ended around the middle of the LL season as I recall.  His coaches weren't thrilled, but they understood he wanted to play both sports. 

Just to add:  My son's travel soccer coaches were not understanding when he needed to miss soccer games for baseball, even as a 10- or 11-year old.  Ultimately that is a big reason he quit travel soccer (earlier than I would have liked, but I'm glad he chose baseball &nbsp.  And that's another plus to LL: it's generally a low-pressure environment.  Kids I coached missed the occasional game for soccer, hockey, swim meets, class field trips...  Some travel coaches would be ok with that, some would not; but at least in my son's LL, no coach would hold those absences against a player.

Chances are my son was a better soccer player than baseball player. He played both in high school. His focus was on baseball. He played travel in the summer and some fall ball. He worked out focused on baseball year round. He did attend an elite goalie camp during the day in the summer.

At U12 and U16 he was approached by very premier programs. The catch was they wanted him to quit all other sports, play soccer year round and not play high school soccer with his friends. At U12 I told them no way before it was a choice for my son. I don’t believe he would have chosen to quit baseball and basketball. At U16 he told them no way. Baseball mattered too much. 

Sounds familiar...  My daughter's main sport was soccer, so I spent a lot of time in that world.  Both my kids got pressure starting from age 9 to quit other sports and play and train for soccer 12 months a year.  These were competitive programs, but no one had any illusions that their teams were stocked with future Olympians.  A lot of things about youth baseball strike me as over the top, but soccer was far worse (and more expensive) in my experience.  

One of the U12 offers was from the regional Junior Olympic Development Program. One of my son’s travel teammates did it. His father was a former World Cup player. He quit after the fall. They traveled from New England to Florida every weekend for ten weekends. The dad told me he pulled his son because a preteen also needs to have fun and down time. 

Three kids from my son’s fall travel team missed a year of soccer due to repetitive stress hip injuries before they were fourteen. It was from playing year round. Soccer involves 8-10 miles of running per game. Go play a five game tournament weekend while you’re growing. Also, there’s more hip and shoulder contact than people know. 

RJM posted:Three kids from my son’s fall travel team missed a year of soccer due to repetitive stress hip injuries before they were fourteen. It was from playing year round. Soccer involves 8-10 miles of running per game. Go play a five game tournament weekend while you’re growing. Also, there’s more hip and shoulder contact than people know. 

Concussions.  Almost as many as American football.  Not to mention ACLs.  It's a great game, but I think US youth soccer has some things very wrong.  

PitchingFan posted:

DIGGUM, we tried with my oldest two sons and it was a disaster.  They threw too hard, they might hit somebody, the swing too hard, they are too competitive, it's not fair having them together on a team, and on and on and on.  It was a joke when you are trying to play against a team that has no one who can throw a strike or if they could it was 50 mph when they were seeing 75 in travel ball.  That is why players leave LL.  I know there are a few competitive leagues where it is worth it but that is not the case in most small towns.  it is a joke.  It has a place but just not in the competitive conversation.  Not mentioning all the local politics that come into play.  The good ole boy system where the guy who knows nothing about baseball other than he watches the Braves has been a coach for 30 years.  And he is the president so he gets the first pick each year.  Again, I know there are a few that do it right but they are the freak not the ordinary. 

I also believe the world has changed and so many of those kids who play only LL all the way until 14 are way behind when it comes to being able to be competitive.  So many of them cannot make a MS or HS team because they do not know how to pick-off or get a lead or swing a bat and the homeruns they hit in LL drop in front of the outfielders in travel ball or MS.  Or like several they are not athletic enough to play on the big field. 

Again, LL has it's place and that is as a recreational event but don't make it out to be a competitive baseball league or that those players in the LL WS are the best 12 or 13 year olds out there.  There are a few but most could not even make a top travel team roster.

I think you are right that there is a lot of variation in quality of leagues, play and leadership.  Every family has to make its own assessment and do what's best.  I wouldn't presume to say your son (or daughter) should have played LL if you don't think that was right for him.  

I do think plenty of LL all star teams are competitive with most travel teams.  I'm in a large metro area with several strong LL programs.  The travel teams these leagues field (basically their ages 9-12 LL all star teams) win and place in plenty of tournaments.  These are weekend events drawing teams from roughly a 4- or 5-hour driving radius--definitely not a WWBA championship-type events, but drawing from a few million population all told.  Several of these teams go to Cooperstown as 12s, but I don't know of any playing PG events.  IMO these squads are in ~the top 1/3 of travel teams I've seen overall.  Being restricted to players a particular geographic area can be challenging.  If my house were three blocks north, my son would have played in a different league.  But I suppose the same is true of public HS districts... 

My son and his LL all star teammates did have a bit of a learning curve initially when they had to learn to hold runners, etc.   But I'd say they caught up within a season or so (most play HS baseball now; almost all who do not chose to play other HS sports).  (This is a team that won a state LL title in one of their pre-12 year-old years, so they admittedly were better than most LL programs around here.)

Chico Escuela posted:

RJM posted:Three kids from my son’s fall travel team missed a year of soccer due to repetitive stress hip injuries before they were fourteen. It was from playing year round. Soccer involves 8-10 miles of running per game. Go play a five game tournament weekend while you’re growing. Also, there’s more hip and shoulder contact than people know. 

Concussions.  Almost as many as American football.  Not to mention ACLs.  It's a great game, but I think US youth soccer has some things very wrong.  

The soccer ACL injuries are more prominent with females. It has to do with their hip structure. 

Everyone knows that little league all-star teams aren't as good as the 12U teams at the NYBC or similar tournaments, because they're drawing from narrower geographic bases.

But I don't understand the idea that everyone who plays LL is no good. My son's LL team from his 11U year -- his regular team, not his all-star team -- has two D1 commits (one Power 5), four other HS varsity regulars, and a seventh kid who played two years of HS baseball but concentrated on varsity football his last two years in HS. Think of it this way: the LL $ cost per AB is the lowest out there. For his 12U year, my kid did both LL and travel and had a lot of fun with both. 

2019Dad posted:

Everyone knows that little league all-star teams aren't as good as the 12U teams at the NYBC or similar tournaments, because they're drawing from narrower geographic bases.

But I don't understand the idea that everyone who plays LL is no good. My son's LL team from his 11U year -- his regular team, not his all-star team -- has two D1 commits (one Power 5), four other HS varsity regulars, and a seventh kid who played two years of HS baseball but concentrated on varsity football his last two years in HS. Think of it this way: the LL $ cost per AB is the lowest out there. For his 12U year, my kid did both LL and travel and had a lot of fun with both. 

We had a 12u Sunday DH travel team running concurrently with the LL season. The idea was to turn a team of  P/C/SS’s into a team that could play other positions in all stars. As coach I communicated with the regular season coaches on when LL pitchers had been used and how many pitches thrown, and when they would be pitched again The travel team had fifteen players most likely to be the twelve on all stars.  

PitchingFan posted:

DIGGUM, we tried with my oldest two sons and it was a disaster.  They threw too hard, they might hit somebody, the swing too hard, they are too competitive, it's not fair having them together on a team, and on and on and on.  It was a joke when you are trying to play against a team that has no one who can throw a strike or if they could it was 50 mph when they were seeing 75 in travel ball.  That is why players leave LL.  I know there are a few competitive leagues where it is worth it but that is not the case in most small towns.  it is a joke.  It has a place but just not in the competitive conversation.  Not mentioning all the local politics that come into play.  The good ole boy system where the guy who knows nothing about baseball other than he watches the Braves has been a coach for 30 years.  And he is the president so he gets the first pick each year.  Again, I know there are a few that do it right but they are the freak not the ordinary. 

I also believe the world has changed and so many of those kids who play only LL all the way until 14 are way behind when it comes to being able to be competitive.  So many of them cannot make a MS or HS team because they do not know how to pick-off or get a lead or swing a bat and the homeruns they hit in LL drop in front of the outfielders in travel ball or MS.  Or like several they are not athletic enough to play on the big field. 

Again, LL has it's place and that is as a recreational event but don't make it out to be a competitive baseball league or that those players in the LL WS are the best 12 or 13 year olds out there.  There are a few but most could not even make a top travel team roster.

I can understand the small town component of this when you have only a couple of very talented players.  I agree that the baseball world has changed but don't necessarily agree that it had to.  In the model I described you are getting some of both formats, can transition to the big field at 13 and  be completely competitive within your own age group at 14.  We had roughly 130 11-12 year olds in our majors LL split into 2 leagues.  Our 12 yr old all star group wound up with 3 D1 baseball players, 2 jucos, 1 D3, a D1 QB, a D1 track guy and a D3 OL. All the baseball players were able to compete very successfully against the top level travel players at 14 yrs old on.  Given that most baseball players in a certain geographic area would be willing to play LL it could in most instances provide a level of competition that is certainly capable of producing players who can succeed at higher levels.  Again, I can see that the LL structure probably doesn't work for small towns and players who have played exclusively LL are farther behind but a significant number of 9-12 yr old "travel" players don't make the top travel team rosters at a later age or ever contribute to their HS varsity teams either...why not keep it as local as you can...If most of the talented players in the area would play...the level of play and development gets better...the format of "how you play" at 9-12 has less of an impact than who you play with....

Australian parents spend 16k to play in LLWS

Makes me feel a lot better about the money I've spent on camps/TB.

Nice article on ESPN on a player trying to make the NFL right now who played on a team that was in the LLWS ten years ago: http://www.espn.com/blog/washi...-league-world-series

Quote: "Six kids from that team ended up playing Division I baseball." That's pretty good. 

Chico Escuela posted:

PitchingFan posted:

 

Again, LL has it's place and that is as a recreational event but don't make it out to be a competitive baseball league or that those players in the LL WS are the best 12 or 13 year olds out there.  There are a few but most could not even make a top travel team roster.

My son and his LL all star teammates did have a bit of a learning curve initially when they had to learn to hold runners, etc.   But I'd say they caught up within a season or so (most play HS baseball now; almost all who do not chose to play other HS sports).  (This is a team that won a state LL title in one of their pre-12 year-old years, so they admittedly were better than most LL programs around here.)

Let me start this by disclosing my disdain for LL.  In my experience  it is a malignant organization that exploits pre-teens with complete disregard for their well-being.   46' to the mound and 60' base paths  is ridiculously dangerous at this age and both LL and ESPN should be ashamed of themselves for promoting this carnage.  The notion of all-star 12 year olds is preposterous, but when a 12 year old  man child (who is often a shaving 13 year old), lays everything he has got into a linedrive up the middle, I don't want to be finishing my follow through off the mound 38' away.

That being said, my son's 12 year old buddies played LL, so he wanted to play.  From his 2013 12u all-star team there are three players who were invited to the PG national at Tropicana field this summer.  All three of them with rankings above 500.  All three of them with multiple P5 offers, and all three of them commitments to D1 powerhouses.  There are two others from this team with strong D2 and JUCO commits.  There are two more still trying to choose from offers that they have.  This LL team did not even make it out of their state playoffs.   All 7 of these kids played on the same Travel team  and won most travel tournaments that they entered and made the championship game  in all but one tournament that year.  Definitively, LL has good players.

They had other LL all-star friends with talent, but they played almost exclusively LL and very little travel ball.  These friends routinely looked silly when it came time to hold runners, take a lead, and field their infield position as they began playing 'real' baseball.  It definitely hurt their development and none of those individuals has committed to play college ball, despite most having a desire. 

Just my experience.

Pedaldad posted:

Chico Escuela posted:

PitchingFan posted:

 

Again, LL has it's place and that is as a recreational event but don't make it out to be a competitive baseball league or that those players in the LL WS are the best 12 or 13 year olds out there.  There are a few but most could not even make a top travel team roster.

My son and his LL all star teammates did have a bit of a learning curve initially when they had to learn to hold runners, etc.   But I'd say they caught up within a season or so (most play HS baseball now; almost all who do not chose to play other HS sports).  (This is a team that won a state LL title in one of their pre-12 year-old years, so they admittedly were better than most LL programs around here.)

Let me start this by disclosing my disdain for LL.  In my experience  it is a malignant organization that exploits pre-teens with complete disregard for their well-being.   46' to the mound and 60' base paths  is ridiculously dangerous at this age and both LL and ESPN should be ashamed of themselves for promoting this carnage.  The notion of all-star 12 year olds is preposterous, but when a 12 year old  man child (who is often a shaving 13 year old), lays everything he has got into a linedrive up the middle, I don't want to be finishing my follow through off the mound 38' away.

That being said, my son's 12 year old buddies played LL, so he wanted to play.  From his 2013 12u all-star team there are three players who were invited to the PG national at Tropicana field this summer.  All three of them with rankings above 500.  All three of them with multiple P5 offers, and all three of them commitments to D1 powerhouses.  There are two others from this team with strong D2 and JUCO commits.  There are two more still trying to choose from offers that they have.  This LL team did not even make it out of their state playoffs.   All 7 of these kids played on the same Travel team  and won most travel tournaments that they entered and made the championship game  in all but one tournament that year.  Definitively, LL has good players.

They had other LL all-star friends with talent, but they played almost exclusively LL and very little travel ball.  These friends routinely looked silly when it came time to hold runners, take a lead, and field their infield position as they began playing 'real' baseball.  It definitely hurt their development and none of those individuals has committed to play college ball, despite most having a desire. 

Just my experience.

What carnage? I saw more pitchers get drilled in 17u wood bat summer ball than LL.

The LLWS does not represent the typical LL player. The average 12yo is 4’10”. At 5’ my son was the shortest on his all star team as a 12yo. The average 13yo is 5’3”. There won’t be 13yos in LL starting next year.