Theory hitting vs. Practical hitting

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:
You think Pujols' hips don't clear until after contact in this clip?


http://hittingillustrated.com/library/Pujols8.gif

To me from the perspective of what I have seen taught, again - semantics and verbal cues - Pujols' foot is essentially closed here. Not to the extent of a previous clip that appeared here, which was quite dramatic, but to the degree that his foot is positioned after the swing, his foot is closed off.

Again, the problem is to what degree do you believe I infer when I say a "closed foot"...this to me is closed.

Hips open same way and same time for every pitch...really.

Interesting.

So accordingly a hitter has esentially the same amount of power to all fields? And pitch location has no bearing on when/how the hips open, inside or outside location? With no adjustments during the swing as I mentioned in the post (kinda vital point)?

Coach2709, Coach May and the rest...I'm joining you on the sidelines on this thread. Obviously I either played too long and coached too long. Put me down on the Practical side.

Great hitters use a running start of the hips and hands. That means, they were moving BEFORE they read final location. That doesn't seem like too tough of a concept to me. You don't have the same power to all fields because the barrel doesn't travel as far and not as much momentum is created on an outside pitch. Again, not too tough of a concept.

quote:

My guy tries to keep his front foot closed as long as possible, however as you state as the hips clear, which is after contact, the foot will open up some. But he is not spinning on his heel as some MLB hitters do.

Floridafan,

You said, in the above quote, that the hips don't clear until after contact. You can honestly look at the clip in question and say that his hips haven't cleared well before contact???

Power could you explain or show exactly what a "running start of the hips and hands" is? I know you said they were moving before reading the final pitch location but I would like for you to get more detailed.

Thanks

Power you are obsessed with my off hand comment regarding the front foot being open or closed and the hips clearing or not...

This was never a critical part of the drill outlined above, way above now.

I find it odd that no one has any interest at all in the drill called "Dynamic Pepper", and choose to focus on whether a foot is open or closed or if I believe hips clear or don't clear. Whatever...

The drill above works, teach it and your hitters will improve, adjust it to however you want that front foot to land and the hip to clear...

The little muscles in the hands and wrists are big enough in a well developed hitter to control a club head and get the bat in motion. The bat in motion which is controlled by the muscles in the hand will always be quicker than a bat that is not in motion. Call it a trigger if you want, but the bat needs to be in motion before "GO" or a slower swing will result. If the bat is in motion and you are not swinging then the hands must be doing something (or they should be) to get the bat in motion. The hands start that motion which begins the swing. Therefore hands move first.

The drill is PRATICAL Not THEORETICAL

Power,

Much better... not there yet but improving. Still forgot the "why" and "how". Inside fastball vs outside curve and the timing you kinda left out unless you really believe the hips do exactly the same thing for each pitch and speed. So the hips are moving "before they read final location" as you say...how are they moving? Are they opening or moving laterally? Why is that important? Not saying you are wrong just need to figure out the semantics and if I understand your "concept". Coach2709 seems to have similar questions.

Very interested in the coil around the rear hip pivot you mentioned and the timing of this action in relation to the front hip opening.


Concepts=Theory. Gotta be able to put them into practice to become practical to that 11 yr old kid we're teaching.

Ever see Dimaggio (Joe, not Dom) hit? How do you like his running start?

Just got my personal invite to join the coaches. Be right over.

Coaches, can floridafan join us? Just find it hard to leave a good man behind on the battlefield.

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Very interested in the coil around the rear hip pivot you mentioned and the timing of this action in relation to the front hip opening.

Does the front hip open or does the back hip open the front hip?

Further, how much power is coming from the front hip opening... Can we call this front side resistance?


BlueDog, I'd love to hear your take on what a "rear hip pivot point" might be compared to "setting the torque."


In terms of theory vs practical, if you want your "theory swing" to work in the game, work harder!!!

Doctors used to practice bloodletting, but thankfully someone was concerned with theory.

quote:

BlueDog, I'd love to hear your take on what a "rear hip pivot point" might be compared to "setting the torque."

Well, Mr, Tewks, I'm thinking I may be left out in the cold on this one as I've been saying for awhile something that has been mostly ignored.....

There exists a separation of the hips in the swing....A torque, shall I dare say....The front and back hip work independently of each other...

I must say this, also....Remember when I said I don't like the word "load"?.....Well, I, also, don't like the word, "opening".....Very misleading words, IMO....

It's about knowing how the front and back hip should function.....The rear hip can look opened and still hold a load.....The front hip can look open and still provide a resistance for providing torque....

But, I'm not a Coach....So, what do I know?

quote:

The front and back hip work independently of each other...

Please Bluedog for all that is good and holy explain how the front and back hip can work independently of each other?

How can a hip that looks open can still hold a load?

These two statements seem absolutely impossible so please explain how these two things work in a way I can understand.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

BlueDog, I'd love to hear your take on what a "rear hip pivot point" might be compared to "setting the torque."

Well, Mr, Tewks, I'm thinking I may be left out in the cold on this one as I've been saying for awhile something that has been mostly ignored.....

There exists a separation of the hips in the swing....A torque, shall I dare say....The front and back hip work independently of each other...

I must say this, also....Remember when I said I don't like the word "load"?.....Well, I, also, don't like the word, "opening".....Very misleading words, IMO....

It's about knowing how the front and back hip should function.....The rear hip can look opened and still hold a load.....The front hip can look open and still provide a resistance for providing torque....

But, I'm not a Coach....So, what do I know?

What do you prefer instead of open?

Also, with the independent hips, are you referring to power/force production? As in, the front hip "opening" is a smoke screen?

BlueDog,

How do you feel about the words "coil" and "uncoil"... when referring to the rear hip?

Bluedog,

You say the front and rear hips work independent from one another. Ok. Are you talking about the ability for rotation in the hip itself due to it's ability to swivel or something else? If so, do you agree the timing of that rotation would in itself help the hips coil/uncoil independent from one another, aiding in torque? Do you see any variance in the timing of this and the start of the hands based on pitch location or speed?

And how does all that interact with the upper body efficiently? Think I know where you going but you jumped the track on me a bit. Yeah,, you're not a coach but you have players you teach one on one so how would I explain your thoughts to a couple of my students in terms that may make sense to him? This kid I'm working with has a full academic ride to Vanderbilt in Engineering so he can handle pretty technical stuff; another has a ride in baseball to an ACC school so likewise he can grasp pretty difficult points. The last one needs it pretty vanilla; best player on the field but not classroom.

Understand the front hip opening but you mentioned the rear hip can look open while maintaining a load. The rear hip open thing loses me.

quote:

Also, with the independent hips, are you referring to power/force production? As in, the front hip "opening" is a smoke screen?

No, Mr. Tewks, not a smokescreen.....I'm referring to a torque between the two hips.....The front hip needs to open during the positive move, or stride if you do stride, and stay open....

quote:

How do you feel about the words "coil" and "uncoil"... when referring to the rear hip?

Probably a good choice of words....I try to be careful how I explain stuff 'cause I know it can be taken a bunch of different ways, usually....

Here's what I find happening from the hips first coaching crowd......They teach players to begin the forward swing with the hips....Load up and get the hips moving first in the unload....And, that's not, at all, what should happen....

The hips are actually moving forward before the hands reach their launch position....Well before....

Mr. tewks, I suppose what I'm trying to say is, the key to the back hip staying coiled is the front hip....

Now, of course the hams, quads and glutes are involved....But, for all practical purposes, it's the hips...

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Mr. tewks, I suppose what I'm trying to say is, the key to the back hip staying coiled is the front hip....

What is the front hip doing to keep the back hip coiled? Not opening? Not pulling? Resisting opening?

Opening...Coiling the opposite way...

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Opening...Coiling the opposite way...

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Opening...Coiling the opposite way...

Lead side resistance?

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

Also, with the independent hips, are you referring to power/force production? As in, the front hip "opening" is a smoke screen?

No, Mr. Tewks, not a smokescreen.....I'm referring to a torque between the two hips.....The front hip needs to open during the positive move, or stride if you do stride, and stay open....

quote:

How do you feel about the words "coil" and "uncoil"... when referring to the rear hip?

Probably a good choice of words....I try to be careful how I explain stuff 'cause I know it can be taken a bunch of different ways, usually....

Here's what I find happening from the hips first coaching crowd......They teach players to begin the forward swing with the hips....Load up and get the hips moving first in the unload....And, that's not, at all, what should happen....

The hips are actually moving forward before the hands reach their launch position....Well before....

Ok so are you saying that the hips should NOT move forward first in the unload?

And then use a video of Pujols showing his hips moving first in the unload phase?

So what's going on? Why the discrepancy?

quote:

Originally posted by BobbyTewks:

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Opening...Coiling the opposite way...

Lead side resistance?

Lead side resistance, IMO, is trying to keep the hip from opening by not allowing it to coil in the opposite direction.


IMO, the clip below shows the proper hip function in two of the best ever to play the game.


http://www.teachersbilliards.com/Hitzone/BarryTed.gif

Pujols video...front and rear hip both move together. Hands are moving also. Watch the knees of both legs for the rotation of the leg within the hip socket. Front and rear hip maintain relationnship.

Williams and Bonds....slightly different hip actions at start. Williams rotates/opens stride leg within the hip socket during short stride, lands with open foot; Bonds does not, foot lands much more closed. Pelvic girdle/hips maintain their relationship to one another with both hitters.

I do agree totally that these videos are of three of the greatest hitters the game will ever see. For even a slightly different hip action, view the Ramirez video in the other thread.

Hip action vs rotation of femur within hip socket are very different animals. Physically impossible for front hip BONE to move without a corresponding movement of the rear hip BONE. Both BONES are part of the pelvic girdle which is one piece. If the front moves an inch in one direction, the rear must move one inch. Lateral or rotational doesn't matter, the pelvis and hip bone (front and rear) will move as a unit.

Descibing how the body moves is a science requiring intellectual honesty which in itself requires precision. Everybody is trying to simplify this by using terminology that is ill suited for science; while understandable, a valid description of the movements and variables is virtually impossible without precise terminology.

I threw out a lifeline about this earlier; why a hangman's noose was tied in it for a suicide is beyond me.

I'm heading back to the sideline and my lawn chair and Cokes. Carry on.

There is no such thing as a hip bone. Their are two hip joints where the ball of the femur is set in a cup (actebullum) on the pelvic girdle. Those joints are held in place by muscle and tendon and some of those run from the pelvic girdle all the way to the mid line of the humerus bone. Some run in and out of the pelvis and across to the other hip. The key to understanding the high level swing is STRETCH of muscles and the contraction of the opposing muscles. I will say this about the pelvic girdle. In a high level swing, the pelvic girdle turns around a pivot point in the rear hip joint and sits on top of the ball of the rear femur.

Power,

I respect your attempt; very close. Not bad at all.(Humerus is the bone in the upper arm. Not a big deal as you do talk about the femur.)

Pelvis is comprised of basically 3 sections called the coaxal bones. The hipbone (where you place your hands on hips) is the illium. You also have the ischium and pubic bones. The actebullum is the hip socket itself and is a ball and socket arrangement. Pelvis/pelvis girdle is essentially fused bones at various spots such as the sacrum or lower vertebrae, forming essentially a one piece unit.

Agree with your point about stretch and opposing muscle groups contractions,etc. As it pertains to the hips, how can this be taught to a hitter? Or is it a teachable point? Is the stretch caused by femur rotation within the hip socket during the load,etc. or someway else?

Agree with your assessmment how the pelvic girdlle turns around a pivot point at the hip joint.

Good job, Power.

Heading back to sideline but gotta make a beverage run so I'll be out for awhile. Carry on.

Power and Mr. Tewks, it's easier teaching players and parents this stuff......They just understand stuff better.....

Mr. Tewks, the front hip coiling the oppsoite way is lead side resistance for the back hip and the hands....

Also, the back hip coiling is back side resistance for the front hip.....

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Power,

I respect your attempt; very close. Not bad at all.(Humerus is the bone in the upper arm. Not a big deal as you do talk about the femur.)

Pelvis is comprised of basically 3 sections called the coaxal bones. The hipbone (where you place your hands on hips) is the illium. You also have the ischium and pubic bones. The actebullum is the hip socket itself and is a ball and socket arrangement. Pelvis/pelvis girdle is essentially fused bones at various spots such as the sacrum or lower vertebrae, forming essentially a one piece unit.

Agree with your point about stretch and opposing muscle groups contractions,etc. As it pertains to the hips, how can this be taught to a hitter? Or is it a teachable point? Is the stretch caused by femur rotation within the hip socket during the load,etc. or someway else?

Agree with your assessmment how the pelvic girdlle turns around a pivot point at the hip joint.

Good job, Power.

Heading back to sideline but gotta make a beverage run so I'll be out for awhile. Carry on.

The Lat muscle is attached at one end to the Pelvis and to the mid-line of the Humerus (upper arm) at the other end.

Do this, stand on your rear leg, don't let your leg turn rearward, sit a little, turn your belly button toward the Catcher as far as you can without that leg turning. The muscles in that joint will get tighter, like wringing out a rag. That's one joint. Now, externally rotate your front leg, hold onto a pole if you have to to keep your balance over your rear leg. Do you feel stretch in both groins?

Power, to feel this kind of stretch would involve practical hitting with at least a resemblance of a high level swing.....

Most Coaches teach turn your hips back then fire your hips and then let your hands go...They won't feel the kind of stretch you're talking about...

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
Power, to feel this kind of stretch would involve practical hitting with at least a resemblance of a high level swing.....

Most Coaches teach turn your hips back then fire your hips and then let your hands go...They won't feel the kind of stretch you're talking about...

I agree. I would also bet very few people in the world have felt "cusp" in their swing or have ever "whipped" the barrel to the ball. When this kind of stretch is created, it is amazing how little effort is needed to actually swing the bat.

No stretch, no whip......

You know what - I'm done with this forum. There is no way on earth you can teach a typical high school kid all that stuff you're saying and preaching. Go ahead and feel superior and dominant all you want to "us coaches" who don't know any better. I don't care what you think just like you don't care what I think. If someone wants to come on here and read your piles of garbage and try to use it - fine. I doubt they will be able to hit a lick.

There is no one way to teach hitting and no one way to swing a bat. All you guys do is create robots that can't make adjustments. Other than myself I've seen other posters ask legitimate questions about technique, strategy and who you have worked with but get ignored. That tells me one of two things (and possibly both) - 1) you have no idea what you're talking about and you ignore the questions because you would be exposed OR 2) you are the most arrogant people on the face of the earth and don't want to listen to anyone else.

You guys can have this forum and preach all you want to because after thinking about it I'm too busy on the field actually doing something WITH the game instead of pontificating about a bunch of stuff the people we are trying to help will never understand. Have fun here and talk all you want to each other because I'm going out to the field and help some actual kids.

Let me see how many more championships I can help my kids win or get my kids into college through what I teach in hitting. It's obviously working. Too bad you guys are so closed minded to not try and listen.

S. Abrams and floridafan - scoot over because I'm done with this. I'm joining you guys on the sideline where the real players need help.

Power,

Thank you; was wondering why the humerus was mentioned. Good explaination of your thoughts.

Contrary to opinion, many coaches do teach what you are talking about but with different vernacular. Such as telling the player never let the back leg break back or lean towards the catcher or making sure the weight stays on the inside of the back foot before and during the stride. Coaching cues that most kids can understand and in effort to achieve the desired result. KISS is very important so that everybody gets on the same page.

So you are saying counteract the torquing into the rear hip by rotating the front leg (femur) externally (towards the pitcher) to achieve the stretch through the hips. Pelvic girdle doesn't itself move during the external rotation, simply the upper leg/femur itself turns within the front socket, thus achieving stretch through the hips. Is this close or am I totally missing something?

Does a leg lift affect the stretch, such as Ramirez?

The real issue is now how to teach the above to a hitter. We can pursue the perfect swing all day but if we can't convey in simple terms to the kids, we're simply spitting into the wind. They then still have to learn the adjustments for location and speed. It is those adjustments that are the secret to hitting because we are interested in teaching hitting, not simply swinging.

Baseball is lightyears behind golf in the technical break down of the swing and commonly used terminology. Seriously doubt baseball will ever come close due to the differences in the two sports.

We'll get to the "cusp" later...never heard that hitting term in 50+ years of playing/coaching.

Gotta go get a Coke. Thanks Power.

quote:

S. Abrams and floridafan - scoot over because I'm done with this. I'm joining you guys on the sideline where the real players need help.

Only one I see scooting is you......

Personally, I believe it's garbage for a Coach to not give enough credit to a parent or player to be able to understand this stuff.....

Just for kicks, the weight can get past the rear leg in the negative move...No problem....

Teaching keep the weight on the inside of the rear foot during the negative move does not work very well and is actually a smokescreen to what really needs to happen.......

It aint about the feet...It's about the hips...

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Power,

Thank you; was wondering why the humerus was mentioned. Good explaination of your thoughts.


So you are saying counteract the torquing into the rear hip by rotating the front leg (femur) externally (towards the pitcher) to achieve the stretch through the hips. Pelvic girdle doesn't itself move during the external rotation, simply the upper leg/femur itself turns within the front socket, thus achieving stretch through the hips. Is this close or am I totally missing something?

Does a leg lift affect the stretch, such as Ramirez?

We'll get to the "cusp" later...never heard that hitting term in 50+ years of playing/coaching.

Yes, it sounds like you got it. The Pelvic girdle will move however as the rear leg turns because that joint will be locked in with the stretch around the joint.

No, IMO, the leg lift of Manny is probably more of a timing move than anything else, but with the front leg unweighted, it is easier to coil the rear hip (also, IMO), but different players find it easier to do in different ways. It can be done in any number of ways.

quote:

.....but with the front leg unweighted, it is easier to coil the rear hip (also, IMO),

Again, it aint 'bout the feet...It's 'bout the hips....

Bluedog,

Don't be an #$#.

Power is doing all the lifting here and making a legitimate attempt at explainations. Without his efforts, my butt would stay in the shade on the sidelines and not leave. Power understood the lifeline I threw to you; he used it quite well while you ignored it.

Be part of the solution for a change. At this point, you are always simply parroting what Power and Bobby Tewks say.

Want to get involved? Start talking about how all this carries over to the field and why it is important and how a player actually does use the info. to become a better hitter. Better figure out how to say the same thing multiple ways as kids learn in a variety of ways and methods.

Would a cracker help?

Remember HS coaches teach more kids hitting in a day than you or I will in a year.

Power, believe me, the punchline is coming.....

You know something, I'm gone to the sideline also. Move over coaches...I'm buying.

Bluedog, at this point I know you are a truly farce and a troll. Continue your lovefest with some of the others and go get a room, but at least pay for the room as they will be doing all the work.

Power, I enjoyed your explainations and thoughts. Unfortunately, Bluedog is now totally your burden to bear and housebreak. Just remember his breed is a "sooner" so don't turn your back. Good luck.

Knew it was right 'round the corner.....

When it's exposure time, it's sideline time....