Theory hitting vs. Practical hitting

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Bluedog,

Don't be an #$#.

Power is doing all the lifting here and making a legitimate attempt at explainations. Without his efforts, my butt would stay in the shade on the sidelines and not leave. Power understood the lifeline I threw to you; he used it quite well while you ignored it.

Be part of the solution for a change. At this point, you are always simply parroting what Power and Bobby Tewks say.

Want to get involved? Start talking about how all this carries over to the field and why it is important and how a player actually does use the info. to become a better hitter. Better figure out how to say the same thing multiple ways as kids learn in a variety of ways and methods.

Would a cracker help?

Remember HS coaches teach more kids hitting in a day than you or I will in a year.

Bluedog was on this stuff long before me! I learned much of what I know from reading his posts on here, many, long after they were originally posted. The thing is, you need to be at a certain level of knowledge before some of it sinks in because it is so contrary to what most teach. I have had many arguements with Blue, but ended up eating my words. I can tell you, Crow tastes BAD, but very nourishing in the end. Guys like Coach2709 are, IMO, why Blue isn't more forthright with his info, most really don't want to know what he has to say, they think they know it already. Thus, Blue's post, "just wait Power, the punchline is coming". Just hang on for awhile, ask questions that show you are trying to learn (you've gone out and swung a bat to try and figure out what he's saying) and you may be very glad you did.

What Bluedog knows is very valuable, why should he give it to those that don't respect what he has to offer?

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...86003481/m/783109933

The thread above will show anyone the agenda of the Coaches who were baiting over here...

Parents, learn this stuff so you can help your kid....Players, learn this stuff so you can help yourself...

bluedog

Many parents never played the game so how can they understand your jibberish---

I am with Coach2709---kids need to be taught on the field,not in a forum full of big words and no examples---teaching hitting , as well as pitching, is a "hands on process".

But then again there are loads of you guys getting mucho dinero per hour for "teaching", if in fact you in actuality do teach or instruct

Ahhh, TRhit showing up after the punchline was sprung is the icing on the cake.....Ya just knew it was coming.....

Ya gotta love it.....

bluedog


Without your jibberish we "baseball people" would have no fun---you still don't answer questions do you

Ask those Dads you speak about if they undertsnad what you spew and then come back with an answer---you coaches have any more room on the bench or do I buy another one?

I had a kid in the cage tonight and he takes a swing and just stops and declares, "I just had an epiphany. I just figured it out." And he proceeded to tell me everything I've been telling him since I started working him. He had to feel it. The theoretical becomes practical when the coach/teacher/instructor can get the player to actually feel what is supposed to happen. There is a lot of trial and error, but hopefully a good coach can enhance the process.

The more you dig into the mechanics, the more you can communicate to your players. The more tools you have in your tool belt. Some kids will get the technical stuff. With the vast majority of players, "stay back" and "use your hands" isn't enough. If explained properly, this technical stuff isn't so bad.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...86003481/m/783109933

The thread above will show anyone the agenda of the Coaches who were baiting over here...

So what was the punchline? It must not been too funny (or informative).

Let me tell you something - you want to take something that I posted and use it as a posterboard for what's wrong with hitting then you go right ahead. Trust me - that stuff works and that is the stuff that makes kids be great hitters. I've seen it work for years and it will continue to work for many more years. I didn't invent this stuff - I got it from going to many, many, many coaching clinics put on by extrememly credible people IN baseball. I got these drills from successful college coaches and successful pro scouts. Are you telling me that guys who are at the top of the food chain of baseball are wrong? Are you telling me that you can teach hitting better than them? The vast majority of coaching is taking what others do and making it fit into what your players can do.

I was at a coaching clinic about two months ago at the University of North Carolina and a lot of their offensive practice was drills. UNC is one of the best programs in the entire country. Dustin Ackley was one of the greatest hitters in college baseball a couple of years ago - are you saying what they do is wrong? Are you saying that what you "teach" is better than what they teach? If so then why aren't they knocking down your door to hire you?

Do you know more than John Cohen? In case you have no idea he is the head coach at Miss. State University and is considered one of the best hitting coaches in the nation. Here's a little about him in case you don't know who he is

quote:

Exactly 18 years to the day after leaving Omaha following his final game in a Mississippi State uniform, John Cohen accepted the head coaching position at his alma mater with the goal of returning the Bulldogs regularly to Johnny Rosenblatt Stadium.
Cohen was named to head the MSU baseball program June 7, 2008. He joins the Bulldog program following a successful five-year head coaching stint at Southeastern Conference rival Kentucky.

Cohen, who was named the 2006 Southeastern Conference Coach of the Year and National Coach of the Year by the College Baseball Foundation and CollegeBaseballinsider.com, led the Kentucky to a pair of NCAA Regional appearances in the last three seasons. He also led the Wildcats to their first-ever SEC Championship in 2006.

In his five seasons at UK, Cohen’s teams compiled a 175-113-1 (.607) record and posted a pair of 44-win seasons – the winningest seasons in school history.

Well-known for his ability as a hitting instructor, Cohen directed the best offensive club in the SEC in 2006, piling up a school-record 500 runs. His 2007 club hit for a stellar .320 average, just one point shy of the UK school record. Cohen’s program utilized a high-powered offensive philosophy to direct the first worst-to-first turnaround in SEC baseball history in 2006, as UK emerged from the SEC basement into a league front runner.

He has a best selling DVD on the 40 hitting drills to help you find your best swing. He's coached numerous guys who have since went on to pro ball. Are you saying you know more than him or what he teaches is wrong?

Here's where the problem lies - you can't prove that **** you teach actually works but it doesn't stop you from saying how great you are. The proof I got is stated above - I try to teach the things that the best teach. You have come up with some gobbley de gook that sounds great and impressive but doesn't teach anything. Like the title of the thread says Theory vs. Practical. You are nothing but theory. All that stuff is probably true and is what happens but doesn't mean jack squat when a kid has to get in a batters box and perform the task. That is total theory - it sounds good, probably is true but no way to prove it. Guys like myself who are in the trenches have to be able to explain and work on aspects of the swing that the kid can take with them into the batters box and try to smoke a line drive back up the middle. That is practical - it sounds good, it is true if it works for the kid and it's proven everyday in practice and games.

You are just like the Mike Marshall disciples in that you just keep saying what you do is the best without any proof, evidence or examples. You are broken record who keeps saying the same thing over and over and over without ever really saying anything of substance. You take people who have very little knowledge of the game and try to do two things - 1) impress them with you vast knowledge of big words and 2) try to convince them the high school coach doesn't know what he's talking about and when the kid still can't crack the lineup it's the coaches fault. You dazzle, distract and throw blame and that is the extent of your "teaching". You prey on the people who don't know any better.

I'm going to take a page out of your book in terms of teaching - I don't care what you say or think but there is no way you could hold my jock when it comes to teaching hitting. I would take some kid you have ruined and make them a lot better. There's not a snowball's chance in an oven you could do that with a kid I work with first.

If you truly had any idea what you were talking about more people would be doing what you're doing but they aren't. Like I said earlier you're nothing but a hitting version of a Mike Marshall disciple. All hot air and nothing of substance.

Against my better judgement, I'm going to weigh in. Theory is great. It gives us a starting place and certainly a lot of discussion. In my opinion, parents often are left behind because theorist want to demonstrate their egos by using terms and strategies far above the knowledge base of the typical parent. Still, it is incumbent upon the parents to wade through the morass. You then have to find a theory that makes sense to you. I've studies most of them. One makes more sense to me. It doesn't mean that same philosophy will makes sense to you. Then, you have to be able to apply that theory.

For goodness sake, you have to swing a bat some. Even if you aren't adept at it, you still learn so much that you understand which philosophies fit your belief system better. I don't know that any one totally matches up. Find drills you believe in BUT know that drill work can be a great benefit OR a great deterrant to the development of your child. I know Bluedog is opposed to Tee work and why not. If you've seen much tee work, it doesn't take long to see players absolutely destroying any base that they might have with regards to a good swing.

Personally, I believe that all work needs to come from the front. Some don't. I believe that you need to study the core and how it is involved. I'm still learning every day on that. Yesterday, a friend I had never met came to watch my child practice. She hit 3 of the firt 4 BP balls out of the yard. He commented that she swings with no effort. The irony of it is that she's put a lot of effort in to it.

Finally, practical hitting is simply implimenting verified theory as it relates to your child. You'll make several changes on your journey to your belief system. That's fine. The day you think you know it all, is really the day that you will stop being an asset for your child. JMHO!

CoachB25 is one of the two Coaches I was talking about when I mentioned that out of the top ten most knowledgeable people I know when it comes to hitting, two are Coaches and eight are parents....He is a Coach who knows to, and does, try different and new ideas and theory....I know that I have learned from him....

From other Coaches, I learn what not to do....Their egos don't allow them to learn....The evidence for that is in their posts.....

bluedog

Aned perhaps they feel the same about your pposts and lack of actual knowledge

You still have not told us where your instructional facility is and do you have any references?

My first period class just let out and in it I've got 3 baseball players. They cover the spectrum of talent in baseball ability.

One is an outfielder who is a great kid but not very good. He rarely steps onto the field.

One is our starting centerfielder and is a really good high school player. He might have a chance to play at the next level but will need help.

One is a starting pitcher and shortstop. He's pretty good. He's two time all state, has already committed to East Carolina, selected for Area Code, AFLAC All American game candidate and is on the radar screen for the draft as a junior.

All three are juniors and have been on the team which has won back to back conference titles.

I let all three read this entire post and I never told them of how I felt about this thread or who I was on here. I tried to leave them as a blank slate and let them read the thread and what they got out of it is what they got out of it.

They said they didn't understand any of the posts that actually talked about hitting. They said if we tried to teach them that way they would be so lost and have no idea what to do at the plate.

The kid who's really good said "coach all hitting is is you load, get the foot down and swing the bat. It's not brain surgery".

These are who we are trying to help and they have no idea what was said in this thread. It's one thing to know everything under the sun technically but it's another to be able to communicate the ideas effectively.

By the way I love how you take a holier than thou approach but never answer the key important question that TR keeps asking - what are your qualifications?

My experience. I can not speak for others.

I had have several mentors in this great game. One of them who I respect so much looked me in the eye's one day and said. "If you ever stop learning. If you ever think for one minute you know it all. If you ever stop trying to seek out better ways to help your players. If you ever stop seeking out ways to improve your ability to help your players. You are done. And so are your players."

So I constantly try to learn and keep an opened mind. What I thought was the gospel 10 years ago I no longer believe is. How did that happen? I kept my eyes open and I sought out newer and better ways to teach. I sought out those that have had success. I sought out those that had ideas different than me. I wanted to see for myself what it was all about. What I didnt buy in to I didnt buy. What I found to be good stuff I bought.

Now the key is being capable of taking a young man and what you have to offer and getting him to understand and apply what you are trying to teach him. Then that player must have a true desire to learn and grow as a hitter. They must have a work ethic and a true love of hitting.

I have constants in hitting. Those constants are things that every hitter must do to have success. Those constants are the things that every hitter does that allows them to have success. I understand that you can have a very flawed swing and still have success if you are simply more talented than your competition. But that same swing that allowed you to have success against inferior competition for your ability will fail you as the competition becomes as talented or even more talented than you are.

My goal is to teach a hitter what will allow him to have success. And then how to actually apply it to the game in order to have success. I do not think you can reach that second goal unless you have reached the first. They need to understand why. Then they need to learn how to apply.

Stance. Grip. Load / Trigger. Bat path. Core. Connection. Stretch. Balance. What is it son? Do you understand what we are talking about here? How can you teach it if the player does not understand it? How can you apply it if you have no idea what it actually is? How can you get the feedback you need as a hitter if you do not understand what is actually going on in the swing process? It would be like a nascar driver trying to explain to the crew chief what was going on with the car but he has no idea how the car actually works on the track.

Every kid does not start out at the same place as far as ability goes. Some can simply hit. Some can simply not hit. Some do certain things naturally that others have to be taught to do. But they all need to learn what they are doing and why they are doing it. And what they need to do and why they need to do it.

I do not post much on this forum because I find that I learn way more when I just read. I have had a great deal of success and have assisted some kids that have had a lot of success. And it was because I was capable of getting them to understand why and how.

Not sure if this post makes much sense. I will go back to reading and let you guys do your thing. Thanks

Several good posts by the coaches. The key message they talk about is teaching the "why and how" of hitting and how to convey it to various hitters. The why and how is what everybody wants to know but some refuse to discuss for fear of being exposed as frauds so they hide behind others or resort to one sentence answers. Coaches can't hide; they have young men to answer to on a daily basis. Those that offer explainations and why/how answers should be commended even if their answers you disagree with.

Coaches also know they have to field a team of at least 9 hitters at the same time and the object is to win. Style points don't count in the scorebook. With Fr/JV/V teams they can have 70 plus kids they are teaching and responsible for their program. Hitting is only one aspect of the game they have to teach.

Private hitting instructors...heres 70 kids to teach hitting to daily so jump after it because the season starts in a couple weeks. What...you can't teach hitting to 70 kids daily as you need at least 30 min to an hour per hitter and usually over a couple weeks or longer? Ok,so give me your 9 best then...what, they won't be ready because they won't have a handle on the theory of the swing? Can they at least bunt...what, you don't teach that? Can you you at least teach them how wear the uniform so they at least resemble ballplayers...what, you can't because you just wore shorts and visors in the slow pitch softball league?
What... you think we should forfeit the first 10 games and you'll let me know when you have 9 kids ready? Tell the parents and AD what...to be patient and you guarantee success? What, no guarantee the kids will actually hit in a game you say but they will all have pretty and technically sound swings? And they can only hit fastballs so if the opposing pitchers throw curveballs or sliders, all bets are off? Well, tell me just what are your credentials...ohh, you just prefer working with parents and players in understanding the swing. Can you get me some referalls or kids you've helped...ohh,none that I've heard of as you just do this as a hobby so there isn't any real pressure that the kids succeed.

Why and how...one without the other is useless. Most coaches attend clinics quite often in the pursuit of knowledge so to say most are close minded is simply a self serving lie. Why the need of some to constantly insult them is beyond me unless that party has a hidden agenda.

Bobby Tewks mentioned a student finally understanding what Bobby was teaching and the trial and error of teaching. That was a good post as he understands the process of teaching and coaching and how often it isn't a straight line or big leap to success but rather small steps while the student is coming to terms with what is being taught. Do all of his students take the same path to success? No as they will learn differently. Most can understand the theories of a good swing but WHY and HOW do we convey that info and what different methods we use is what parents really want to know. Otherwise reading this forum is simply a waste of their time.

I bought the last round...nearly broke the bank. Sideline is nice and shady. Kinda crowded so prime spots are at a premium.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
The kid who's really good said "coach all hitting is is you load, get the foot down and swing the bat. It's not brain surgery".

Coach, if this player were to instruct, how/what would he teach? I always make my players teach me... and I close my eyes and they have to tell me specifically what to do. The fact that this player is a stud doesn't mean he'll be a good instructor or coach. I kind of laughed when you used him as an example because I would imagine this all comes fairly natural to him... Like so many former MLB players who can do but not teach. (Not to say your player isn't a hard worker or anything like that, but juniors on area code teams are pretty special players.) In a game, "see the ball, hit the ball" is always good, but in a training environment there needs to be more detail, more precision, more intent. Perhaps there should be two threads from this. "Theory in Game vs Theory in Practice" and "Practical in Game vs Practical in Practice."

Tomorrow, can you ask your players specifically what they load? (And if time permits how they load it? Maybe throw in a "why" after each piece of the load...) I'm very curious to hear the answers from the different players.

Power,

Somehow I doubt you ever really learned anything new from Bluedog. You knew something already and posted it on this site and all Bluedog did was agree. He didn't teach you but simply agreed with you; you were the initial source of the idea or info.

I don't know everything and have admitted learning something everytime I read this website. Sorry, but I have forgotten more about the swing and hitting than anything Bluedog has demonstrated in his "lengthy" unoriginal posts. Learned from other posters, but not Bluedog.

Will Bluedog ever respond to questions or give explainations in detail? Doubtful, as that is not his agenda or role on this website. He is simply the court fool/jester but without the wit; a parrot that jumps from shoulder to shoulder repeating what he hears.

Once again Power, I enjoyed your explainations of the hips and the stretch/torque. While it was something I've mentioned before on this site, your explaination on how to feel it was very good and one that I had not seen. I am sure many parents and players would like you to go over how to achieve this in the swing as you have the ability to explain your thoughts. Are there drills you use or mental/verbal cues that have helped? Have simple explainations of what you are trying to achieve worked or have you had to break the components up so the player has a better grasp of the objective?

It's time for someone to shoo Bluedog out the backdoor/doggydoor so that something is said here that will really help parents and players get a better grasp of hitting.

Bobby Tewks,

Atta Babe....good explaination of how an instructor tries to convey an idea.

Doesn't matter if we agree or hate it; the point is it is one way of teaching that has worked for Bobby and his students.

That is what players and parents want to see. Good job, Bobby Tewks.

****Don't get the big head, Bobby. One "Ahhh @#$%" erases ten "atta babes" as you well know.LOL.

Bobby excellent point. There are things I have always done to help my players better understand what I am trying to teach them. One of the best ways to learn and understand is to teach. Jr's and Sr's instructing the Fr and Sophs at the cage while we watch and critique. My players working our camps teaching youth players. Sitting down with players and talking to them about their swing and the swing process itself.

How many times have you heard a coach say "Get your foot down early." Does the player really know what the coach is telling him? Does he know why he should? Does he understand why he was told that? What was the player doing that caused the coach to tell him that? It is pointless to know an extremely amount about the swing process , hitting , approach etc etc unless you can actually transfer that knowledge to those that need you to transfer it to.

I have seen some very successful coachs who were not nearly as knowledgeable about hitting but what they did know they were very very good at conveying to their players. They were very good at instilling confidence in their players. They were very good at assisting them in making adjustments to their swing and approach.

Bobby I enjoy your posts. I think its very clear you have been there and done that and are doing it. I can tell you I enjoy sitting down and talking hitting with my players. Especially the ones that have invested the time and effort over their hs career. There is not a whole lot more satisfying in this game than to here a player say "Coach thanks. I can feel exactly what you were talking about." And you see them have success.

I have always felt that teaching hitting was showing at the same time---remember that old phrase " a picture is worth a thousand words" ?

You cannot show how it is done with huge words and phrases--sometimes it just takes showing the hitter what he is doing wrong--teenagers at times do not grasp words and phrases but they grasp what they see real quickly

First of all, any instructor who coaches for money should be ashamed of themselves if they aren't teaching with player feedback on almost every swing. For HS coaches the same applies but due to numbers and distance, sometimes it is harder. Still, that is no excuse. BB was playing in a game today. No hitter through a couple of innings. BB called team over and asked them how they were being pitched. She then told them how they were being pitched. I was very proud of her. while not technique still practical part of hitting and something that has to be coached from early on. We could all get into arguments on style or philosophy but we should all agree that swinging a bat personally, doing our homework and then making sure we teach as we coach have to be mandatory in order for us to earn our money.

I'm going to say one other thing. Bluedog has been around for a long time. He not only instructs, coaches,... but also, he is able to pick the mind of one of the top hitting coaches in this country. It is not my place to say whom or give out any other info but I will defend him knowing he does indeed know his stuff. IMO, he doesn't participate to tell you what you should know or do. He participates to make you have to think. Way back in the day, he and I did not get along. Then, WHEN I ALLOWED MYSELF TO THINK, I understood exactly what he was doing. JMHO!

Coach

He sure has you fooled !!!1

TR, you and I have spoken a couple of times and I apprecited that you showed so much support for me when some things were going bad as I moderated this site. You know that I'm an old school baseball guy. I know that about you as well while also knowing that you have done so much good for the youth of your community. In being a moderator for so long and on a few different sites, I am privy to a history of many posters. I don't know everything and never said I did. Of my statements about Bluedog, I'm certain.

TR, there are guys who simply don't get along. Perhaps that is the case with you, a couple of other posters and Bluedog. I'm certainly guilty myself of being abrasive. Still, there are guys out there that are very active teaching and coaching and so, their contributions, including yours, should never be discounted. JMHO!

I personally have always enjoyed and been challanged by information that Bluedog "shares". Cryptic most of the time but verbal cues like breadcrumbs...

Stick around Bluedog

BlueDog has his own style. We all do. He is extremely knowledgeable about hitting. I have learned some very good things from him. Like I said in a post earlier I do not post a lot on the hitting forums. I enjoy reading the stuff and picking up some things to try.

Back to the topic. A former player of mine playing in college called the other night. He told me that he is struggling. He also said that his teammates rely on him to "fix them." He said it isn't fair that he can't help himself. I told him I failed him. He told me I did not. We all know I did because he should be able to get to an established base and then work from there to fix his problems. I told him such in our conversation. Yet, when you have really, "coached them up," you turn them lose and they should know all that you know as a coach about their swing. Perhaps, with him, I spent too much time talking and not enough listening to him tell me what he knew. This is always a learning process. Again, the coach is learning about the swing and the player. It is a two way street.

This is possibly an indication of the value placed on freezing the finnish when taking BP or T work.

Hold the finnish and count off your checkpoints. Fix what is wrong with your finnish, ie. head looking at point of contact, in our case front foot "closed", front leg posting, club head above shoulders, etc.

If all these checkpoints are in place, then a lot must have occured correctly during the swing, or you would not have finnished in the correct position.

I know for a long time when my son began working with his instructor, my guy spent a fair amount of time learning the language the instructor used. What each word meant, what each aspect should feel like, so that they were on the same page. This really was important and did not happen overnight. Now they can talk over the phone and analyze each swing he took.

My son can tell you what each swing was that he took, or what each pitch was that he did not swing at in each game, later that night. He has been trained to analyze, or be aware, of everything that happens during each of his plate appearances.

From a practical or theoretical standpoint, I've never understood "freezing the finish." You've already hit the ball... the point of contact matters, everything to the point of contact matters, while everything after contact has zero impact on the ball and will happen as a result of the swing plane and intent.

That is very true Bobby. But how you finish can give feedback on how you got there.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
That is very true Bobby. But how you finish can give feedback on how you got there.

I completely agree. For evaluation purposes, it can be used. But you don't need to freeze. I think freezing tends to put the focus on the follow through too much... when if you just take a good swing to get there, the follow through will usually be balanced and you won't need to try to freeze.

Yes I agree. You should be balanced on the finish. By freezing your not taking a natural swing your preparing for the freeze.

The point is you need to train to look at the key points when you freeze, or hold the finish. I mean we are talking about holding the finish for maybe 5 seconds. Which is 4.5 seconds more than most folks do...

If all you do when you finish is see if you finished with a club head above your shoulder, well you forgot to check at least 5 other areas, so that is not a fair representation of the value of "holding" the finish.

Instant feedback will be balance! How many hitters have you seen that would fall on their face if they tried to hold where they finished?

If you have a hitter that is about to fall over after each swing, holding the finish might be instructive to him.

If a hitter has a habit of pulling his head, holding his head looking at point of contact may be helpful.

If a hitter does not fully rotate, getting his rear shoulder all the way to the front, he can see this is he holds his finish.

If a hitter collapses his front side on contact and holds the finish, he can see that.

There are many checkpoints that holding or freezing on the finish to be examined.

To focus on one, is not fully understanding what can be achieved by working this drill.

And Coach May, you KNOW I love you! But, a hitter doing this drill will not swing preparing for the "freeze" if this drill is used regularly. Of course you want to see the hitters natural swing. After doing the drill for a period of time, the preperation, anticipation of holding the finish will leave the hitter, and you will see his natural swing and he will be able to hold it and check himself.

One key checkpoint is called the "powerline".

In the beginning, practical methods dictated that one must see the ball to hit the ball.

The cynic then added that it is better to hit the ball when it reaches a certain 'spot'.

The scientist then determines exactly where that spot would be.

The mathematician then works out the varying distances traveled by batted balls.

When all three came together to establish the penultimate way to teach hitting, the first disagreements were born in what are now 'Hitting Forums'.

New Age hitting observers noted that certain players performed better than others and claimed that all hitters should adopt that hitters style.

After years of trial and error, it was determined that one hitting style does not get the best results from all hitters.

Heretics claimed that all hitters who get good results perform the same basic steps or motions in their swings to make contact.

The Heretic then publishes their List of Similarities only to be met by protestations from the orthodoxy and scientists.

The orthodoxy and scientists claim that there is only 'One Way' that is correct.

But Nature has proven that there is no 'One Way' that suits all.

Blessed are the heretics who are not blinded by orthodoxy or science.

The Prophet brought the Light upon the old ways and developed the New Testament of Hitting.

The Prophet was crucified by the others.

Rejoice.

Does Bluedog actually know something about the baseball swing? Most of us agree he might but does a poor job of conveying this knowledge or explaining his thoughts in a method that can be understood via the written word. Knowledge with the inabilty or refusal to convey it in a manner that is readily understood by the target audience (parents and players) is essentially useless.

What most of the parents and players that read this site need is Bluedog to consider the audience and then speak as he would to one of his own students face to face. Does any coach speak solely in cryptic, one line messages constantly to his students without ever previously explaining what he means? No, if Bluedog is as good as some claim he doesn't either when he works with hitters. People want to know exactly how he tries to help or teach his students in practical terms and reality.

The student must know enough about the basic subject matter to learn, advance, ask questions and understand. If he doesn't, he probably doesn't know enough to even ask the right question to learn. It is the coach's responsibility to put the student/hitter in a position to succeed or else the failure is his. Right now, Bluedog may get through to a very marginal number of readers but fails to help most succeed, which strikes me as a waste of time or knowledge if his desire is to truly help.

All any have asked of Bluedog is to explain how would he teach/instruct certain parts of the swing or to explain his thoughts so that he is easily understood by the readers. Many may lack the basic hitting acumen to understand his messages or theories or how to translate what THEY THINK HE MEANS into practical help. If the student does not understand, a GOOD teacher/coach realizes that the failure belongs to the teacher/coach for not finding a method that the student can understand. The English language is a beautiful thing if used concisely.

The question remains...is Bluedog on this website to promote hitting knowledge or to promote Bluedog? His actions or inaction will answer that and reveal if his desire to help parents and players is genuine or merely a "smokescreen".

It's clear that BlueDog is here to promote hitting knowledge.

The problems I saw were in terminology, torque, stretch, sequence.

I was at first under the impression that 'stretch' was a part of the forward motion of the swing rather than the 'load' in his writings. That I'll write off as language arts.

Many times the term 'torque' was used incorrectly and that causes misunderstandings to arise.

Explaining the sequence with terms I thought were misplaced caused me to doubt his interpretations.

Through the course of the forum, I think that many issues have been clarified. There is even the possibility that some theories have changed slightly or ideas have been melded.

I firmly believe that everyone who contributes in the forum believes what they promote. Many I disagree with, some I agree with and then some others use different terms.

If ever there is a clear, concise indisputable explanation of an effective swing, it would become famous, only to become lost through the various translations fron language to language.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbyTewks:

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
The kid who's really good said "coach all hitting is is you load, get the foot down and swing the bat. It's not brain surgery".

Coach, if this player were to instruct, how/what would he teach? I always make my players teach me... and I close my eyes and they have to tell me specifically what to do. The fact that this player is a stud doesn't mean he'll be a good instructor or coach. I kind of laughed when you used him as an example because I would imagine this all comes fairly natural to him... Like so many former MLB players who can do but not teach. (Not to say your player isn't a hard worker or anything like that, but juniors on area code teams are pretty special players.) In a game, "see the ball, hit the ball" is always good, but in a training environment there needs to be more detail, more precision, more intent. Perhaps there should be two threads from this. "Theory in Game vs Theory in Practice" and "Practical in Game vs Practical in Practice."

Tomorrow, can you ask your players specifically what they load? (And if time permits how they load it? Maybe throw in a "why" after each piece of the load...) I'm very curious to hear the answers from the different players.

Bobby - sorry to take so long to get back with you but I've had some really late nights with games. I get home and view through some things and make short posts but the long ones had to wait until I had some free time.

I think the "teach back to you" technique is a good one and I've use it quite a bit myself. But (and this is my fault for putting just a tiny bit of the conversation on here) but he does have a great grasp of hitting. I just posted that because it goes back to the simplifying of concepts in order to teach. I've seen people try to teach baseball, football, basketball, history, math, science, english and a whole bunch of other stuff and want to be seen as intelligent they lose the message in words the audience has no idea what they mean.

You are correct in the training environment needs to be detailed and more precision. That is how I try to teach hitting but its very difficult when I got 20 guys to look over as they hit. Then you throw in rules from the state association that pretty much eliminates when I can teach the game it makes it difficult. In fact these obstacles are two of the reasons why private instructors have grown in popularity. I'm not against private instructors but there are just as many bad ones trying to make a buck as there are high school coaches who take the job just for extra money as there are summer coaches who create a team so they can show off their son.

I'm going to swallow some pride here and apologize because I let this thread and the other one become a personal with Bluedog. He stated something that I thought was completely ridiculous and I asked him to clarify but he came back with more gibberish. It went downhill from there. My biggest beef is that he criticized HS coaches and I don't take that too lightly. I know there are some HS coaches who are jerks and failures out there but I also know many who are / were great coaches but because they didn't play politics or other stuff idiot parents tried / did ruin them. In fact early in my head coaching career if it wasn't for a great principal I believe I would be in that category. So when I see someone just criticize HS coaches I'm quick to defend until I see proof that they are not worthy of it.

Bluedog has been asked numerous times to provide credentials but he has yet to list any. Granted he doesn't owe us anything and he has no obligation to provide any but when you are on an anonymous message board credibility is a difficult thing to establish. Honestly I can't provide a list of any name that any of you guys will know - maybe in a few years you will recognize the kid from my previous post. What I can provide in terms of credentials is the fact that under my tenure the baseball team had achieved more success than any other time in it's history. Maybe that's good enough and maybe it's not - that's for everyone else to decide if they want to listen to what I got. I know it works but I am willing to always learn more.

Bobby - as for asking the players about the load I never got the chance because we didn't have class on friday. We had away games on Thursday and Friday. I couldn't talk to them on the bus because I was the driver. Couldn't really talk to them during BP because I was on fungo and I'm not going to distract them during the game.

I'm going to brag a little bit though - a senior who is our first baseman is a phenomenal glove man but he has never put any offensive numbers up at all. Probably his high school career batting average is around the Mendoza Line. I've been finding time to work with him specifically on a few drills to try to fix some problems. The past 4 games he's hitting around .450ish and went yard last night. Even when he's getting out it's hard shots at fielders. Maybe what I've been doing with him is working. Maybe he's figured things out on his own. Maybe he's just on a hot streak where the ball is finding the bat. I don't know but I do know he's become a factor in our team's offensive success. I'm ok with that.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

I'm going to swallow some pride here and apologize because I let this thread and the other one become a personal with Bluedog. He stated something that I thought was completely ridiculous and I asked him to clarify but he came back with more gibberish. It went downhill from there. My biggest beef is that he criticized HS coaches and I don't take that too lightly. I know there are some HS coaches who are jerks and failures out there but I also know many who are / were great coaches but because they didn't play politics or other stuff idiot parents tried / did ruin them. In fact early in my head coaching career if it wasn't for a great principal I believe I would be in that category. So when I see someone just criticize HS coaches I'm quick to defend until I see proof that they are not worthy of it.

Bluedog has been asked numerous times to provide credentials but he has yet to list any. Granted he doesn't owe us anything and he has no obligation to provide any but when you are on an anonymous message board credibility is a difficult thing to establish. Honestly I can't provide a list of any name that any of you guys will know - maybe in a few years you will recognize the kid from my previous post. What I can provide in terms of credentials is the fact that under my tenure the baseball team had achieved more success than any other time in it's history. Maybe that's good enough and maybe it's not - that's for everyone else to decide if they want to listen to what I got. I know it works but I am willing to always learn more.

Coach,

Below is the exact quote by Bluedog. I don't see him criticizing you. I see him stating the differences between Coaches and Hitting Instructors. IMO, Coaches sometimes NEED quick fixes, but that doesn't excuse them from teaching or learning the proper foundation in the first place. It IS the Coaches responsibility, IMO, to teach his players the best information available to get them to their potential. It's not ALL about winning. The winning should be a by product of teaching players proper fundamentals. A Coach also has the responsibility to get his players to play as a TEAM. Hitting Instructors don't have to deal with all those extras. I give Coaches there proper respect (when deserved) it is a tough and IMPORTANT job and I admire the folks that want to do it to the best of their ability.


"Coach2709, drills can help hitters to hit better....I'm not saying you were wrong....You are right....

Here's what I'm saying about drills....They are a quick fix, or a band-aid approach, to helping a player swing a bat better....

My agenda in teaching a player how to swing a bat is to get them as close to their potential as I possibly can, not just to get them better.....

So, High School Coaches are scrambling to get their players to hit better on a limited time basis....And, they're working with a team of players pretty much all at one time....

I'm working with a single player at a time and have as much time as I need....

Now, perhaps you need drills to coach your players....I don't...."

Power I never said he criticized me. I said he criticized HS coaches. Secondly I never said it was about winning. I agree that success is a byproduct of teaching fundamentals to players. I posted what I did as more of a way to show that it seems like I did teach the correct fundamentals. Plus you need to do some more research because he has said a whole lot more than what you found.

"Coach2709, let's set the record straight....

I'm not here to appease Coaches.....I'm here to help parents and players learn how to swing a bat better....

Funny thing is, when the hitting technique discussions get going, the coaches seem to disappear.....But, they show up in the smokescreen discussions....You know, stand this way and stride like this sort of stuff...

Parents and players are my focus....They need help their coaches don't give....

You see, I think a kid should strive to understand the teaching of Ted Williams and get their homework done.....I don't consider his advice BP...."

"Don't close the thread....

This thread exemplifies perfectly why parents and players don't trust their coaches to teach their kids how to hit....

...This is what coaches call coaching?...And, why players and parents look for outside help...."

"Coaches, especially these two, being humble?

ClevelandDad, you are misrepresenting Ted's book....Are you sure you read it?"

******When he is talking about these two coaches he's referring to me and Coach May*****

"That's quite a knock on parents who spend alot of time researching and learning hitting technique to help their kids....

Actually, there are many parents who study hitting on boards like this one, and many others, who I believe are more knowledgeable on hitting than the coaches their kids play for....

All you have to do is listen to them post on here to know that......

Of the ten most knowledgeable hitting people I know, two are coaches, and eight are parents...

If I taught one of your players, it would not be to reinforce what you teach..."

"But, I'm not a Coach....So, what do I know?"

"Power and Mr. Tewks, it's easier teaching players and parents this stuff......They just understand stuff better....."

"Personally, I believe it's garbage for a Coach to not give enough credit to a parent or player to be able to understand this stuff....."

"From other Coaches, I learn what not to do....Their egos don't allow them to learn....The evidence for that is in their posts....."

These are just snippets of things he's posted but they were the ones that indicated to me that he was criticizing high school coaches. Yes in a few of them you can see where he's even hinting at me. But unless you really go back and read the two threads you won't see how he's went after high school coaches. I'm not innocent here - I've said things in these two threads that were uncalled for and were very sarcastic and not helpful at all in the grand scheme of things.

Bluedog has a negative and arrogant attitude towards coaches. I've asked several legitimate questions as to what he's said on here only to be ignored. In fact I asked you a question and it was ignored.

If Coach May and Coach B25 say Bluedog has something of value to add then I guess he does because I respect both of these guys very much. I highly doubt I will ever swallow the Kool Aid he's trying to sell and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm just going to avoid everything he posts because I can't see it going all that well. No sense is mucking up this forum with more arguing about "how my way is better than your way and is the only way" that is already dominant here.

Coach,

One of my Mentors talks about "guardrails" being the toughest opponent in teaching hitting. It is just my opinion, but HS Coaches (especially ones that have had success) are the toughest nuts to crack when it comes to hitting mechanics. The standard reply is, "I've had this, that, _____ played for me, _____ played for me, I did this in MILB." To that I say, "so what!" "What you are TEACHING is WRONG!" A Coach can give a good hitter one tip that MAY help him to start hitting better, because he has seen the same thing done with good results. There is nothing wrong with that, IMO. The thing is, when a hitter doesn't understand WHY he needs to move certain body parts at the right time and in the proper manner, he can't fix himself and THAT is critical.

I understand totally that HS Coaches don't have the time to teach every hitter to reach their potential, but it is my opinion that the Coaches need to have the proper information being taught when kids hit the Freshman class and they should keep records (video) of the kids and refer to it before an instruction session is being done. Yes, I know some do all this, but they are few and far between.

Let me take a step back here and say, many things CAN be taught in a group setting and ALL Assistant Coaches should be taught proper mechanics. That way, you can assign your Coaches a few players at a time. Schedule instruction in groups of two at a time in 30 minute intervals. Make them OPTIONAL for the players. IMO, why waste time on those that don't want help?