Top 10 events for scouting by college coaches

The WWBA National Championships at Lake Point are heavily scouted and one of the biggest events that my son has had on his schedule.  That runs from the end of June through July, one age group per week.  You don't want to just show up to get discovered, you want to make sure you have contacted coaches prior and hopefully you will get on their list of "must see" players.  If you don't have enough info to gain the attention, i.e. 90+ MPH FB,  etc., You may consider a PG showcase so that you have an objective evaluation.

I can't give you a top 10, but IMO "THE" top event is the WWBA World Championship in Jupiter.

Perfect Game Nationals has got to be way up there.  It is "invite only" and only about 300 players get invited, but if you are invited to that one, you are well on your way.

First time posting here but had to after the experience at the Phil Singer Summer Series in the San Diego area. My son plays for Garciaparra (GBG) and we see our share of scouts during the summer, but yesterday was by far the most at one game.  We had some great pitchers on both sides that drew close to 20 schools. Who would have thought you would see that at Vista High School in Vista, CA in late July?

In my experience, the best events were those attended by the head coaches or recruiting coordinators of the schools on my boys' vetted lists. 

For my sons, Headfirst Honor Roll Camps were tops. For my oldest, PG National Academic was also very good. There were no tournaments that stood out for my guys. There were some school camps, e.g., Harvard winter camp, that were good too. 

Headfirst Honor Roll, PG

During my 17 years operating the Area Code games and Area Code tryouts, I attended every tryout from California to East Coast. Six tryouts each year.

We average 80-100 HS players each tryout [all players selected by pro scouts]. A total of 10,000 players who receive an opportunity to show their "tools".

Players paid $0. All tryouts and games on one field.

We averaged 60 college coaches at each tryout. In addition we selected players for the Goodwill Series event with the Australia, Japan and Korea National HS team.

Bob

<www.goodwillseries.org>

Headfirst, Stanford, Arizona Junior Fall Classic (and Academic game) were the best for my guy...

In my experience so far, if you are aiming for schools out of the area, I think the Arizona Fall Classic (did sophomore last year, junior this fall) is right up there. Check their website for colleges attending and see if it lines up with your son's targets.

Stanford camp was extremely productive (though expensive). Obviously dozens of colleges. Again check their list to see if it matches your son's targets. 

If you're interested in schools in the Carolinas/Virginia area, my son played at a Dynamic Baseball tournament that was productive. One of his team's  games had 15 colleges.

If you get an AC tryout, take it. 

Ultimately, I think this kind of question can be best answered after knowing your son's targets. For instance, Headfirst and Stanford might be fantastic for him, but they wouldn't be good for a kid with a 2.5 GPA. Dynamic might be great for a kid interested in that area, but wouldn't make sense for a kid who wants to stay on the West Coast. Etc.

Consultant posted:

During my 17 years operating the Area Code games and Area Code tryouts, I attended every tryout from California to East Coast. We average 80-100 HS players each tryout [all selected by pro scouts]. Players paid $0. All tryouts and games on one field.

We averaged 60 college coaches at each tryout.

Bob

<www.goodwillseries.org>

Bob is right on target.  Area Code games are held in higher regard because you cant buy your way in. It takes an MLB scout reference to even get invited to an Area Code tryout.  If you are fortunate enough to make one of the teams you play for a week in Long Beach in front of MLB scouts and college coaches.  Pay for play events organized by Perfect Game, Under Armour, etc, attract good players for sure but not ALL of them are good.  What a lot of parents don't understand about PG & UA events is that when coaches and scouts show up, they are there to see a few specific players that are already on their "list".  It is against all odds that any player will be discovered and recruited because they attend WWBA (just as an example).  A good PG ranking is a nice thing to have but that alone will not get anybody recruited or drafted.  The way to get your son recruited is to have him endorsed by someone with "baseball cred" that has connections.  That could be an MLB scout, a HS coach, a travel ball coach, an individual instructor, etc.  The challenge is filtering through all the BS to determine the difference between who is telling you the truth and who is trying to grab your money (HINT : most are after your money). Once you figure that out you can develop your own roadmap. It is different for everybody. 

Great information so far and the names of events I've been hearing about before as well.  I can't get into much specifics in our situation b/c we are still early to the process and I know in time his play will garner the needed attention, so I'm hopeful he will get an opportunity to play in college at some level.  My son is a 2020 catcher and just started attending national tournaments with a regional team this year.  At both tournaments he has gotten highlighted, but you are correct in that college coaches don't know about him before he arrives at these tournaments.  He hasn't done a showcase, but has a regional one coming up soon.  He's still trying to figure out his list of target schools too, but every local coach and scout from the tourneys/local that has seen him so far has said "D1 material", just no D1 coaches have seen him play yet.   I know we need the pop time and velocity measurements for catching (I do have one batting exit velo of 85 for the homerun he hit at one of the tourneys), and I've taken in game video and we've sent that to local school in the tournament area before we go to tournaments.  He's been on a local summer team that doesn't get much exposure, but has worked with a catcher scout in the area, so he really doesn't have anyone to act as a liaison for college coaches either.  He keeps getting asked to play in tournaments nationally, which gets expensive b/c we have to fly there too.  The question was meant to "weed through the BS" as others have mentioned already. 

I would suggest that you attend a quality "local" showcase as soon as you can to get some verified measurables....pop time, velo, 60, etc.  Once you have those it will be much easier for guys here who have never seen your son play to give you an idea where he stands nationally....especially if he wants to play down South.  My son is a D1 pitcher from the midwest.  His numbers his junior year in HS were very good for here in the Midwest...but didn't compare to the guys down South...and we knew that...so we didn't even try to get him in touch with schools down there.  No sense throwing money away when it was obvious it wasn't gonna happen.   Once you get those, you'll have a better idea if he is a "southern" D1 kid.   Good luck to your son!!   Enjoy the journey!

Results are what count.  Many of the countries top prospects attend more than one highest level event.  At these highest level events (showcase and tournaments) is where you see the most college coaches and MLB scouts. There is one event that is BY FAR the most attended and that is the WWBA World Championship held in Jupiter Florida.  Here are the other top events for scouting, not necessarily in any order.

WWBA National Championships, especially 16U and 17U

Perfect Game National Showcase

Area Code Games

USA Baseball Tournament of Stars

East Coast Pro Showcase

The nationally televised All American games

Various Area Code, ECP, and scout association tryouts

Fall Classic in Arizona

BCS Championships

Apologize if I missed others

Scouts and recruiters flock to the places where they will see the most talent.  BTW, none of the above pay college coaches to be there.  In fact college coaches pay to be there.  It is all about results, results for the players, the colleges and the MLB organizations.

Over 1,000 Major League players have played in PG events.  Over 80% of all those drafted in the past decade.  Over 90% of the first two rounds.  The very best players in the game, Trout, Harper, Kershaw, Posey, Correa, Lindor, Bumgarner, McCutchen, Votto, Greinke, Rizzo, Bryant, Seager, Bellinger, Arenado, Machado, Donaldson, McCullers, Kluber,  I could go on forever naming MLB stars... All that played in PG events. The College World Series every year is comprised of  rosters full of those that played in PG .  Last year's championship game between LSU and Florida, Florida was 100% of the roster had been to PG events, LSU was just short of 100%.  That is right nearly every player.  RESULTS ARE WHAT COUNT!!!

One thing that people get confused about is the fact that Perfect Game is first and foremost a scouting service.  Perfect Game is NOT a recruiting service, yet it is used more than any other source by colleges for recruiting purposes.  So you could say PG is by far the best college recruiting service even though they aren't one.  Colleges and MLB Scouting Departments are our customers.  People would be surprised if they knew how closely we work with colleges and MLB clubs.  PG is even working with MLB headquarters to help grow the game and give opportunities to those that need help. PG has close to 80 fulltime employees and close to a thousand part time employees.  PG spends close $20 million a year to operate.  How good is PG at evaluating players, once again RESULTS are what count.  Check out this link that shows PG preseason All Americans every year.  This is done before players have started their senior season in HS.  Top left you can choose any year over the past decade.  So for those that say the rankings don't matter, the evidence/results prove otherwise.

https://www.perfectgame.org/al...fault.aspx?Year=2017

I hope everyone gets a chance to watch the PG All American Classic on the MLB Network Aug 13th from Petco Park in San Diego.  That one game alone has had 141 and counting MLB players play in it.  187 first round draft picks.  And it is comprised of players that haven't even started their senior year of HS. BTW, players don't have to pay a dime to be there. Everything including travel, lodging meals, everything is paid for.  And they also pick up a ton of gear and play on national TV.  All the proceeds from the game go to Rady's Children's Hospital for Pediatric Cancer.  Here is the list of MLB players from that event...

http://www.perfectgame.org/all...tory/mlbplayers.aspx

All that said,  PG is not for everyone, but everyone can get involved.  There are PG events that are open for players to display their talent.  If talented enough very good things happen, if lacking necessary talent, very little will happen.   BUT never ever believe that someone can buy their way into the top PG events.  Sorry, a couple comments posted above were incorrect.

One last thing, none of the events I listed are for everyone.  These are all events that get the best talent possible.  There might be other events that could work out better for some players.  The PG WWBA in Jupiter each October has by far the most scouts and colleges in attendance.  Every year between 800 and 1,000 show up.  Several MLB clubs send their entire scouting division to that event.  It is a baseball circus, and nothing else comes close to comparing to it.

Sorry if this all sounds like bragging, I don't like to come on here and promote PG.  It's really not necessary, but seems like some people need to know what's been going on.  And NO Perfect Game is not Perfect!

Thanks PGStaff for the comprehensive explanation very much appreciated!  It's challenging for new parents to make sense of the process and this forum has been very helpful.  My son has played two national tourney, one of which was PG .  We thought both were great and he did well. As I said we are early in the process and trying to figure it all out bc unfortunately we live in a part of the country that makes it difficult to choose where to put your efforts and he is often asked to go play in tourneys nationally.

For Northern California players I would highly recommend the NorCal World Series. It is very well attended by colleges, especially those on the west coast.

3and2Fastball posted:

Perfect Game Nationals has got to be way up there.  It is "invite only" and only about 300 players get invited, but if you are invited to that one, you are well on your way.

Which makes it a non-factor to about 200K juniors and seniors

SanDiegoRealist posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

Perfect Game Nationals has got to be way up there.  It is "invite only" and only about 300 players get invited, but if you are invited to that one, you are well on your way.

Which makes it a non-factor to about 200K juniors and seniors

Actually, if you are invited to that (June after junior year) there's about a 95% chance you are already committed to a D1 school. Same thing with the nationally televised All American games, etc. 

PG has done a tremendous job of creating a national brand, so I'm not surprised that you feel compelled to defend it. But me thinks you protest too much. And since you stated that my comments were incorrect I will elaborate. Almost every Perfect Game event (whether team or individual) that I'm aware of involves fees. Therefore, by definition, it is pay for play.  I didn't say that anyone could buy there way in to high level PG events .What I said was you COULDN'T  buy your way into Area Code. There is a difference. I also said that a high perfect game ranking is a nice thing to have but that alone will not get a player recruited or drafted.  That very statement has been made to me by college coaches and MLB scouts that I know personally.  So I stand by my comments.  PG does a good job of assembling a lot of talent at the same place at the same time. That makes it easy for coaches & scouts to see all the guys that they want to see.  But (in my opinion) the players that benefit the most don't really need help from PG (or anyone) ~ and the players that need it the most benefit the least. Once you get past the very upper crust, the separation in baseball talent is hard to evaluate.  Good players get overlooked and showcase players (with good measurable) are often overrated. Scouting is an art as much as it is a science. That's why the old school network of trusted sources will always come into play.

2019Dad posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

Perfect Game Nationals has got to be way up there.  It is "invite only" and only about 300 players get invited, but if you are invited to that one, you are well on your way.

Which makes it a non-factor to about 200K juniors and seniors

Actually, if you are invited to that (June after junior year) there's about a 95% chance you are already committed to a D1 school. Same thing with the nationally televised All American games, etc. 

as best I can tell Perfect Game Nationals is more about positioning for the draft than getting a college commitment.  As mentioned most players are already committed by the time they attend PG National.   If you are invited to that event you can pretty much punch your D1 ticket if you haven't already committed though...

Considering the value of the PG National, I would consider that the pinnacle event, probably #2 or #3 overall (after the PG All-American Game and perhaps the Under Armour Game at Wrigley Field).   Any PG event (such as a Showcase or WWBA) that can get you invited to the PG National would be #4 and #5

just my 2 cents

Not sure where you are from, but this would be a west coast perspective. First of all, if you are selected for area code games, you most likely already are committed or have plenty of offers, same goes with pg National and USA TOS. These are the tournaments or showcases I have either attended or heard great things about on the west coast. All have high d1 coverage and Fall Classic and PG World Series have great pro scout coverage as well.

USA Baseball 17u NTC Arizona

Prospectwire East v West 17u California

Norcal World Series

Under Armour Southwest 17u California

Arizona Fall Classic

PG World Series 17u Arizona

PG Evoshield Upperclass Arizona

PG California World Series 

Phil Singer Summer Series 18u California

Elite Baseball Series California

Rising Prospects showcase California

2019Dad posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

Perfect Game Nationals has got to be way up there.  It is "invite only" and only about 300 players get invited, but if you are invited to that one, you are well on your way.

Which makes it a non-factor to about 200K juniors and seniors

Actually, if you are invited to that (June after junior year) there's about a 95% chance you are already committed to a D1 school. Same thing with the nationally televised All American games, etc. 

Again, great event for about 0.05% of all baseball players. Realistically, would f you are in that stratosphere you aren't on here asked by which event to go to, you already know by now.

i again see zero benefit in televising a HS prospect game. If they are already in that niche of players everyone who needs to know about them already does. That is a branding/marketing exercise.

So should all those great baseball players be kept a secret from everyone other than those that need to know?  How about those that want to know?  What about those that would like to watch the best HS players?  What is wrong with promoting the game of baseball at the amateur level?  Why do they televise other baseball games, those that need to know the players already know them.  It's baseball played by many of the most talented HS players and future first round picks. Why would anyone want to watch that?  Why do 300 MLB scouts attend the game every year if they already know.everything about these kids that they need to know.

PGStaff posted:

So should all those great baseball players be kept a secret from everyone other than those that need to know?  How about those that want to know?  What about those that would like to watch the best HS players?  What is wrong with promoting the game of baseball at the amateur level?  Why do they televise other baseball games, those that need to know the players already know them.  It's baseball played by many of the most talented HS players and future first round picks. Why would anyone want to watch that?  Why do 300 MLB scouts attend the game every year if they already know.everything about these kids that they need to know.

I cant see that there is anything wrong with anything in this post.  I also cant see any negative comments about PG anywhere in this thread.  I think that all that is being stated is that there are alternatives. PG is kind of like ice cream - it's always nice, but sometimes you don't really need it.

In my experience the WWBA tourneys are great for seeing a large amount of college coaches. They are more East Coast but if you play well you gain attention. You are playing against the best so the measurables are easy. If your team makes the playoffs the competition level is outstanding. The coaches become more obvious and visible as well. Someone said that the event is a baseball circus and I would have to agree. I have seen a few games with more than 20 school Reps   in the stands shoulder to shoulder. Some schools bring multiple recruiters. It is impressive to have your kid play meaningful games with that kind of attention. We arent talking showcase games where the attention is on the pitchers and the count starts at 1-1, but in a must win setting in a team batting lineup.

Headfirst and Showball events are run well and offer Hi-Ac players the ability to be seen by schools with higher academic requirements all in one place.

PGStaff posted:

So should all those great baseball players be kept a secret from everyone other than those that need to know?  How about those that want to know?  What about those that would like to watch the best HS players?  What is wrong with promoting the game of baseball at the amateur level?  Why do they televise other baseball games, those that need to know the players already know them.  It's baseball played by many of the most talented HS players and future first round picks. Why would anyone want to watch that?  Why do 300 MLB scouts attend the game every year if they already know.everything about these kids that they need to know.

I will answer your questions from my perspective, PG Staff. Please understand that this is my opinion only and that I'm not being critical of PG per se, just supporting my claim that while there are many great events for HS baseball players to be seen at, the top PG invitation only and/or televise events are not something that have an impact on 99.99% of the kids who are seeking to play at the collegiate level. There is no doubt PG events draw a crowd, but that crowd has narrow focus.

1. So should all those great baseball players be kept a secret from everyone other than those that need to know? Great baseball players at those events that are invitation only and/or televised are not a secret from anyone who needs to know. Like you have said on here MANY times, if PG finds a player that you think is great, you spread the word. If someone else finds them first, you hear about them and get eyes on them somehow to evaluate them. I would argue that few, if any, players who are of that caliber aren't on the radar of someone at the D1 or MLB level already. Those players are the worst kept secret, if they are kept a secret. Can't tell you how many times we have seen Hunter Green, Kumar Rocker in the media, on your PG website. Those kids don't need more exposure. They get plenty. I see tweets from PG once in a while promoting a kid who isn't committed. That is helpful, but if you look at the "effort" made to promote a kid who needs the promotion compared to one that doesn't, it's a haves and have-nots comparison.

2. "How about those who want to know?" Well, I have no direct response to that because I don't know who audience that might be in your mind. Other kids? Parents? Coaches at collegiate and pro levels? Not sure what this has to do with anything. Those who want to know will find out.

3. What about those that would like to watch the best HS players? I can only speak for myself, but watching some of these events are only interesting if you know a kid in them. We have known several who have played in some of your top events and the All American Classic, and have attended the All American Classic on occasions from 2010 until now when we knew people in it. Yes, there are some great baseball players in those events. I will say this, and please don't take it the wrong way, but the event is a little over the top and a lot of the antics on the field with the players during the event are dare I say braggadocios. That is just my opinion, but I think that particular event for me, as a spectator, gets a little over the top. Been to the event many times, it draws a large crowd of coaches and scouts, more radar guns behind home plate than at a motorcycle cop convention. But the fan base isn't there from a pure spectator view. Again, witnessed this event personally MANY times, it draws maybe 1000-2000 true "spectators" who aren't coaches or scouts.

4. What is wrong with promoting the game of baseball at the amateur level? Nothing, and I think the game is doing great. But you are a business, not an amateur baseball entity like USA Baseball. Would you ever consider televising an event, in the name of amateur baseball promotion, and not having the words "Perfect Game" or the branding of PG in the broadcast at all? I doubt it, because television and radio, and to a large degree the Internet, are vehicles made for advertising. I'm not trying to argue with you, I just would hope you could call it what it is, ""promoting amateur baseball" is a marketing vehicle for your brand. You are going to reply saying "I like how people think they know why we conduct our business the way they do" but we didn't fall off the turnip truck. 

5. Why do they televise other baseball games, those that need to know the players already know them. ?

Professional baseball at any level is televised because live sports broadcasting is the most lucrative programming for television and radio, and again I will throw in web-based broadcasting, hands down. Companies pay a premium rate to advertise during live sporting events for a reason, because people like to watch these events live, not recorded. The broadcasters have a product (sporting event, in this case a baseball game) in which advertisers pay them $$$ to promote their products to a captive audience. Your events, as great as they may be, likely don't generate the premium advertising dollars that a professional sport does because the audience is not as wide. So, from my perspective, the driving factor for PG or an organization like PG to pursue television broadcast of their events is not for the exposure of the players, heck that doesn't even factor into my variables except that PG is HOPING to gain from these amateur players participating in the event to draw more of an audience. Instead the motivation is really branding and promotion of the brand. Again, my opinion, but you have mentioned on here many times how much $$$ PG spends (or even loses) to host these events. Why would any business spend money promoting a game/players at any level from tournaments to the "pay to play" showcases to the invitation only events, especially televised events? Branding and securing their place in the market. Your company has done a great job of that, you should be proud - really.

6. It's baseball played by many of the most talented HS players and future first round picks. Why would anyone want to watch that?  Why do 300 MLB scouts attend the game every year if they already know everything about these kids that they need to know. Again, not picking a fight with you, but I contend that those who want/need to know about players have their resources (including PG) to find the information they need. Why do 300 scouts attend the game every year? Because their job is on the line to find talent and it is assembled conveniently for them. I am sure that PG is single-handedly responsible for reducing the travel budgets for every college and professional baseball team in the US, without exception. In fact, you probably could charge them for admission to your events and they would pay...because they are still saving $$$ based on your events aggregating talent in one location. Do you charge coaches/scouts admission at PG events? I know I pay to see my kid play...but again, I defer to my answer in #3 above, the level of interest in high profile high school events has a niche audience consisting of college coaches, professional baseball scouts/organizations...and organizations like Perfect Game. I will do you a favor, I will have a friend who is attending the next All American Classic at Petco (I will be out of town) take some picture of the crowd and we can see the level of interest. But I can break down the demographics for you based on my own attendance at several of these events:

- 20% college coaches and/or professional baseball affiliated scouts

- 20% families of the players who are rostered for the event

- 30% local travel baseball teams aged 9U-14U

- 10% parents who drove the above mentioned 30%

- 10% people who got some tickets and will go see baseball at Petco regardless who is playing

- 10% PG employees

Again, PG Staff, I am not trying to rip Perfect Game. It's a great organization that has become the main event for pretty much every high school player who aspires to play at the next level. Your events draw the best talent. But as far as promoting deserving kids, I will again say Hunter Green and that caliber player don't need your help in their senior year of HS. The players PG could benefit the most are those kids who PG has seen, given PG game grades or ranked nationally and who are not committed. Those are the kids PG can have the biggest impact on and how PG can "win more fans" from those of us who are sometimes a little critical of your perspective of how/why PG does what it does.

Here is one thing I think PG could do to help those kind of players:

- Feature uncommitted prospects who have a minimum level of "7" or "8" when they are Juniors and Seniors These are the kids that need help to get to the next level. Hunter Green didn't need your help or promotion his senior year...these kids do. You have said your whole reason for starting PG was to help kids get to the next level...don't lose focus on who needs that help.

by your definition.

PNW2017;

please see the web site for the Pacific Northwest annual events. During my time with the Area Code games, I visited many cities in the Northwest and we selected outstanding talent.

https://baseballnorthwest.com/...hwest-championships/

Over 70% of the Area Code players did not have a College scholarship until after the AC games. During the games 1987 -2004,  we created annual clinics for the players to learn from former MLB players.

We had agents try to promote their players. Showcase "promoters" pretending to be parents for the lower entry fee.

Each year players were placed who were not recommend by a pro scout and I placed in the games and they later played in the Major Leagues - Chase Headley, Albert Pujols, Jesse Barfield, Adam LaRoche to name a few.

Dustin Pedroia Red Sox was a "great example" of the cooperation with  pro scouts and the success of the games and Goodwill Series International. "Baseball Scout" from the HS web site was the SF Giants scout who selected Dustin and assisted in his decision to attend ASU.

"all in the 16 hour days".

Bob

SanDiegoRealist posted:

PGStaff posted:

So should all those great baseball players be kept a secret from everyone other than those that need to know?  How about those that want to know?  What about those that would like to watch the best HS players?  What is wrong with promoting the game of baseball at the amateur level?  Why do they televise other baseball games, those that need to know the players already know them.  It's baseball played by many of the most talented HS players and future first round picks. Why would anyone want to watch that?  Why do 300 MLB scouts attend the game every year if they already know.everything about these kids that they need to know.

I will answer your questions from my perspective, PG Staff. Please understand that this is my opinion only and that I'm not being critical of PG per se, just supporting my claim that while there are many great events for HS baseball players to be seen at, the top PG invitation only and/or televise events are not something that have an impact on 99.99% of the kids who are seeking to play at the collegiate level. There is no doubt PG events draw a crowd, but that crowd has narrow focus.

1. So should all those great baseball players be kept a secret from everyone other than those that need to know? Great baseball players at those events that are invitation only and/or televised are not a secret from anyone who needs to know. Like you have said on here MANY times, if PG finds a player that you think is great, you spread the word. If someone else finds them first, you hear about them and get eyes on them somehow to evaluate them. I would argue that few, if any, players who are of that caliber aren't on the radar of someone at the D1 or MLB level already. Those players are the worst kept secret, if they are kept a secret. Can't tell you how many times we have seen Hunter Green, Kumar Rocker in the media, on your PG website. Those kids don't need more exposure. They get plenty. I see tweets from PG once in a while promoting a kid who isn't committed. That is helpful, but if you look at the "effort" made to promote a kid who needs the promotion compared to one that doesn't, it's a haves and have-nots comparison.

2. "How about those who want to know?" Well, I have no direct response to that because I don't know who audience that might be in your mind. Other kids? Parents? Coaches at collegiate and pro levels? Not sure what this has to do with anything. Those who want to know will find out.

3. What about those that would like to watch the best HS players? I can only speak for myself, but watching some of these events are only interesting if you know a kid in them. We have known several who have played in some of your top events and the All American Classic, and have attended the All American Classic on occasions from 2010 until now when we knew people in it. Yes, there are some great baseball players in those events. I will say this, and please don't take it the wrong way, but the event is a little over the top and a lot of the antics on the field with the players during the event are dare I say braggadocios. That is just my opinion, but I think that particular event for me, as a spectator, gets a little over the top. Been to the event many times, it draws a large crowd of coaches and scouts, more radar guns behind home plate than at a motorcycle cop convention. But the fan base isn't there from a pure spectator view. Again, witnessed this event personally MANY times, it draws maybe 1000-2000 true "spectators" who aren't coaches or scouts.

4. What is wrong with promoting the game of baseball at the amateur level? Nothing, and I think the game is doing great. But you are a business, not an amateur baseball entity like USA Baseball. Would you ever consider televising an event, in the name of amateur baseball promotion, and not having the words "Perfect Game" or the branding of PG in the broadcast at all? I doubt it, because television and radio, and to a large degree the Internet, are vehicles made for advertising. I'm not trying to argue with you, I just would hope you could call it what it is, ""promoting amateur baseball" is a marketing vehicle for your brand. You are going to reply saying "I like how people think they know why we conduct our business the way they do" but we didn't fall off the turnip truck. 

5. Why do they televise other baseball games, those that need to know the players already know them. ?

Professional baseball at any level is televised because live sports broadcasting is the most lucrative programming for television and radio, and again I will throw in web-based broadcasting, hands down. Companies pay a premium rate to advertise during live sporting events for a reason, because people like to watch these events live, not recorded. The broadcasters have a product (sporting event, in this case a baseball game) in which advertisers pay them $$$ to promote their products to a captive audience. Your events, as great as they may be, likely don't generate the premium advertising dollars that a professional sport does because the audience is not as wide. So, from my perspective, the driving factor for PG or an organization like PG to pursue television broadcast of their events is not for the exposure of the players, heck that doesn't even factor into my variables except that PG is HOPING to gain from these amateur players participating in the event to draw more of an audience. Instead the motivation is really branding and promotion of the brand. Again, my opinion, but you have mentioned on here many times how much $$$ PG spends (or even loses) to host these events. Why would any business spend money promoting a game/players at any level from tournaments to the "pay to play" showcases to the invitation only events, especially televised events? Branding and securing their place in the market. Your company has done a great job of that, you should be proud - really.

6. It's baseball played by many of the most talented HS players and future first round picks. Why would anyone want to watch that?  Why do 300 MLB scouts attend the game every year if they already know everything about these kids that they need to know. Again, not picking a fight with you, but I contend that those who want/need to know about players have their resources (including PG) to find the information they need. Why do 300 scouts attend the game every year? Because their job is on the line to find talent and it is assembled conveniently for them. I am sure that PG is single-handedly responsible for reducing the travel budgets for every college and professional baseball team in the US, without exception. In fact, you probably could charge them for admission to your events and they would pay...because they are still saving $$$ based on your events aggregating talent in one location. Do you charge coaches/scouts admission at PG events? I know I pay to see my kid play...but again, I defer to my answer in #3 above, the level of interest in high profile high school events has a niche audience consisting of college coaches, professional baseball scouts/organizations...and organizations like Perfect Game. I will do you a favor, I will have a friend who is attending the next All American Classic at Petco (I will be out of town) take some picture of the crowd and we can see the level of interest. But I can break down the demographics for you based on my own attendance at several of these events:

- 20% college coaches and/or professional baseball affiliated scouts

- 20% families of the players who are rostered for the event

- 30% local travel baseball teams aged 9U-14U

- 10% parents who drove the above mentioned 30%

- 10% people who got some tickets and will go see baseball at Petco regardless who is playing

- 10% PG employees

Again, PG Staff, I am not trying to rip Perfect Game. It's a great organization that has become the main event for pretty much every high school player who aspires to play at the next level. Your events draw the best talent. But as far as promoting deserving kids, I will again say Hunter Green and that caliber player don't need your help in their senior year of HS. The players PG could benefit the most are those kids who PG has seen, given PG game grades or ranked nationally and who are not committed. Those are the kids PG can have the biggest impact on and how PG can "win more fans" from those of us who are sometimes a little critical of your perspective of how/why PG does what it does.

Here is one thing I think PG could do to help those kind of players:

- Feature uncommitted prospects who have a minimum level of "7" or "8" when they are Juniors and Seniors These are the kids that need help to get to the next level. Hunter Green didn't need your help or promotion his senior year...these kids do. You have said your whole reason for starting PG was to help kids get to the next level...don't lose focus on who needs that help.

by your definition.

8	Potential draft pick and/or excellent college prospect
7	College prospect, possible future draft pick with development

Hallelujah !!  Can I get an Amen ?!

From the perspective of someone who lives in Wisconsin, I can say that top players from here absolutely utilize Perfect Game's help in ways that no other organization or scouting service would provide.  For Gavin Lux (1st Round pick - Dodgers), Ben Rortvedt (2nd Round pick - Twins), and Jerred Kelenic (projected Top 10 overall pick in the 2018 draft), they wouldn't have been been positioned to go as high in the draft w/o the Perfect Game National or the All-American Game at Petco.   Living in Wisconsin they just don't get the exposure of playing enough top-flight competition (even if they do play in a few WWBA Tournaments with their travel teams) to get properly slotted in the draft without those elite events.

adbono posted:

SanDiegoRealist posted:

PGStaff posted:

So should all those great baseball players be kept a secret from everyone other than those that need to know?  How about those that want to know?  What about those that would like to watch the best HS players?  What is wrong with promoting the game of baseball at the amateur level?  Why do they televise other baseball games, those that need to know the players already know them.  It's baseball played by many of the most talented HS players and future first round picks. Why would anyone want to watch that?  Why do 300 MLB scouts attend the game every year if they already know.everything about these kids that they need to know.

I will answer your questions from my perspective, PG Staff. Please understand that this is my opinion only and that I'm not being critical of PG per se, just supporting my claim that while there are many great events for HS baseball players to be seen at, the top PG invitation only and/or televise events are not something that have an impact on 99.99% of the kids who are seeking to play at the collegiate level. There is no doubt PG events draw a crowd, but that crowd has narrow focus.

1. So should all those great baseball players be kept a secret from everyone other than those that need to know? Great baseball players at those events that are invitation only and/or televised are not a secret from anyone who needs to know. Like you have said on here MANY times, if PG finds a player that you think is great, you spread the word. If someone else finds them first, you hear about them and get eyes on them somehow to evaluate them. I would argue that few, if any, players who are of that caliber aren't on the radar of someone at the D1 or MLB level already. Those players are the worst kept secret, if they are kept a secret. Can't tell you how many times we have seen Hunter Green, Kumar Rocker in the media, on your PG website. Those kids don't need more exposure. They get plenty. I see tweets from PG once in a while promoting a kid who isn't committed. That is helpful, but if you look at the "effort" made to promote a kid who needs the promotion compared to one that doesn't, it's a haves and have-nots comparison.

2. "How about those who want to know?" Well, I have no direct response to that because I don't know who audience that might be in your mind. Other kids? Parents? Coaches at collegiate and pro levels? Not sure what this has to do with anything. Those who want to know will find out.

3. What about those that would like to watch the best HS players? I can only speak for myself, but watching some of these events are only interesting if you know a kid in them. We have known several who have played in some of your top events and the All American Classic, and have attended the All American Classic on occasions from 2010 until now when we knew people in it. Yes, there are some great baseball players in those events. I will say this, and please don't take it the wrong way, but the event is a little over the top and a lot of the antics on the field with the players during the event are dare I say braggadocios. That is just my opinion, but I think that particular event for me, as a spectator, gets a little over the top. Been to the event many times, it draws a large crowd of coaches and scouts, more radar guns behind home plate than at a motorcycle cop convention. But the fan base isn't there from a pure spectator view. Again, witnessed this event personally MANY times, it draws maybe 1000-2000 true "spectators" who aren't coaches or scouts.

4. What is wrong with promoting the game of baseball at the amateur level? Nothing, and I think the game is doing great. But you are a business, not an amateur baseball entity like USA Baseball. Would you ever consider televising an event, in the name of amateur baseball promotion, and not having the words "Perfect Game" or the branding of PG in the broadcast at all? I doubt it, because television and radio, and to a large degree the Internet, are vehicles made for advertising. I'm not trying to argue with you, I just would hope you could call it what it is, ""promoting amateur baseball" is a marketing vehicle for your brand. You are going to reply saying "I like how people think they know why we conduct our business the way they do" but we didn't fall off the turnip truck. 

5. Why do they televise other baseball games, those that need to know the players already know them. ?

Professional baseball at any level is televised because live sports broadcasting is the most lucrative programming for television and radio, and again I will throw in web-based broadcasting, hands down. Companies pay a premium rate to advertise during live sporting events for a reason, because people like to watch these events live, not recorded. The broadcasters have a product (sporting event, in this case a baseball game) in which advertisers pay them $$$ to promote their products to a captive audience. Your events, as great as they may be, likely don't generate the premium advertising dollars that a professional sport does because the audience is not as wide. So, from my perspective, the driving factor for PG or an organization like PG to pursue television broadcast of their events is not for the exposure of the players, heck that doesn't even factor into my variables except that PG is HOPING to gain from these amateur players participating in the event to draw more of an audience. Instead the motivation is really branding and promotion of the brand. Again, my opinion, but you have mentioned on here many times how much $$$ PG spends (or even loses) to host these events. Why would any business spend money promoting a game/players at any level from tournaments to the "pay to play" showcases to the invitation only events, especially televised events? Branding and securing their place in the market. Your company has done a great job of that, you should be proud - really.

6. It's baseball played by many of the most talented HS players and future first round picks. Why would anyone want to watch that?  Why do 300 MLB scouts attend the game every year if they already know everything about these kids that they need to know. Again, not picking a fight with you, but I contend that those who want/need to know about players have their resources (including PG) to find the information they need. Why do 300 scouts attend the game every year? Because their job is on the line to find talent and it is assembled conveniently for them. I am sure that PG is single-handedly responsible for reducing the travel budgets for every college and professional baseball team in the US, without exception. In fact, you probably could charge them for admission to your events and they would pay...because they are still saving $$$ based on your events aggregating talent in one location. Do you charge coaches/scouts admission at PG events? I know I pay to see my kid play...but again, I defer to my answer in #3 above, the level of interest in high profile high school events has a niche audience consisting of college coaches, professional baseball scouts/organizations...and organizations like Perfect Game. I will do you a favor, I will have a friend who is attending the next All American Classic at Petco (I will be out of town) take some picture of the crowd and we can see the level of interest. But I can break down the demographics for you based on my own attendance at several of these events:

- 20% college coaches and/or professional baseball affiliated scouts

- 20% families of the players who are rostered for the event

- 30% local travel baseball teams aged 9U-14U

- 10% parents who drove the above mentioned 30%

- 10% people who got some tickets and will go see baseball at Petco regardless who is playing

- 10% PG employees

Again, PG Staff, I am not trying to rip Perfect Game. It's a great organization that has become the main event for pretty much every high school player who aspires to play at the next level. Your events draw the best talent. But as far as promoting deserving kids, I will again say Hunter Green and that caliber player don't need your help in their senior year of HS. The players PG could benefit the most are those kids who PG has seen, given PG game grades or ranked nationally and who are not committed. Those are the kids PG can have the biggest impact on and how PG can "win more fans" from those of us who are sometimes a little critical of your perspective of how/why PG does what it does.

Here is one thing I think PG could do to help those kind of players:

- Feature uncommitted prospects who have a minimum level of "7" or "8" when they are Juniors and Seniors These are the kids that need help to get to the next level. Hunter Green didn't need your help or promotion his senior year...these kids do. You have said your whole reason for starting PG was to help kids get to the next level...don't lose focus on who needs that help.

by your definition.

8	Potential draft pick and/or excellent college prospect
7	College prospect, possible future draft pick with development

Hallelujah !!  Can I get an Amen ?!

Or here is another idea, have an "invitation only" event (regionally or by state to reduce travel expenses for all those players and families PG wants to help get to the next level) for top uncommitted players. DON'T invite committed players. They should not be the target audience for these events for the schools that attend looking for uncommitted talent. Gives PG another revenue stream (always a win, right?) and is a win-win for players still in the hunt and schools with needs.

I kind of equate this to inviting married people to a singles dance - they may be great on the dance floor but if asked for a commitment after doing the pasodoble they learned from watching "Dancing with the Stars, they will have to tell the other party they are already married (or at least they should).

Arizona Fall Classic Jr in AZ and PG WWBA World Championship in Jupiter are at the same time this year...if you are a 2019 who is interested in "higher academic" schools on both coasts (not necessarily Ivy), which is a better place to be seen and be recruited at?

3and2Fastball posted:

From the perspective of someone who lives in Wisconsin, I can say that top players from here absolutely utilize Perfect Game's help in ways that no other organization or scouting service would provide.  For Gavin Lux (1st Round pick - Dodgers), Ben Rortvedt (2nd Round pick - Twins), and Jerred Kelenic (projected Top 10 overall pick in the 2018 draft), they wouldn't have been been positioned to go as high in the draft w/o the Perfect Game National or the All-American Game at Petco.   Living in Wisconsin they just don't get the exposure of playing enough top-flight competition (even if they do play in a few WWBA Tournaments with their travel teams) to get properly slotted in the draft without those elite events.

 

But they have benefited from that exposure already. The need to televise them and parade them in front of a crowd of scouts at Petco is immaterial at a certain point in my opinion and is a marketing exercise for the event organizer. Look at where these players went in your example, 1st rd to Dodgers, 2nd rd to Twins and a 2018 top 10 pick potentially. I will give PG some credit, but also credit those kid's parents and/or advisors/coaches who told them to get exposure at these events. With that level of talent, it was probably apparent at their first PG event they were prospects. PG definitely provides a platform to compare apples to apples in these top events, but many of the Showcase events also allow oranges, pomegranates and a few lemons in as well.

I know that different regions of the country get different attention from scouts/colleges when it comes to baseball, the hotbeds being California, Florida, Georgia, Texas - and now apparently Wisconsin, but really - if I lived in Wisconsin and my son demonstrated skills that either I or a coach recognized as being very good, I would have driven my butt to the closest PG showcase. Cars are mobile, and if necessary can be slept in (done that a night or two myself).

Properly slotted for the draft is really something that nobody knows. Kids can get drafted high and not pan out. It happens. PG All Americans are great HS baseball players who project to the next level (and beyond), but they haven't gotten there yet. There is a ton of hard work to do on that journey and if that kid has cruised to this point due to being a stud at the HS level, the wakeup call is coming in all likelihood once they step on the field against professionals who are all striving for the same goal and that chasm in talent closes. It's really easy, even for the untrained eye, to say "this kid is special" when they are throwing 95mph, running a 6.4 sixty, launching bombs or throwing 92mph across the diamond. I saw Hunter Green play in the PG AAC and could tell he was the best player on the field...and I am by most definitions an idiot.

Any one of us on this board are as qualified as most anyone else in baseball to spot that talent. It's the guys downstream who the ones who are tougher to call. I did a quick count of players PG had ranked as "top 500" in the 2017 class - approximately 32 pages with 50 players per page. Why is that? Because there is not as much difference between #500 and #1,500. They are all good baseball players who PG kind of lumps together. How much meaning is there in that ranking? It seems most of those kids end up committed to good to very good D1 programs. Top 1000 puts about another 1,700 kids in a category - and they for the most part are going small school D1 and below or uncommitted by PG site data. Just reporting what I see.

Smitty28 posted:

Arizona Fall Classic Jr in AZ and PG WWBA World Championship in Jupiter are at the same time this year...if you are a 2019 who is interested in "higher academic" schools on both coasts (not necessarily Ivy), which is a better place to be seen and be recruited at?

If your target is "higher academic schools on both coasts" look into Play To Win & Head First.  Both of those organizations are designed to place kids in the schools you described. I have friends that have had good success with both - especially if D3 is your destination.

Smitty28 posted:

Arizona Fall Classic Jr in AZ and PG WWBA World Championship in Jupiter are at the same time this year...if you are a 2019 who is interested in "higher academic" schools on both coasts (not necessarily Ivy), which is a better place to be seen and be recruited at?

Whichever one you can get on a roster to play in the event. AZFC is tough to get into as a team, I have heard the waiting list for teams is 5+ years. The WWBA World Championship is also an invitation only event...if you are on a team in that event you are lucky and should attend. AZFC is also scripted in that they bat 6 per inning, it's really a showcase as opposed to a real game like WWBA. However if you look at the list of schools that attend the event which AZFC puts out, it is a very strong showing of schools. You can also try to get into the AZFC All Academic tryout and game. As the name implies, there are academic requirements to meet for eligibility, but that tryout alone gets you in front of a ton of high academic schools, more if you are selected from that group to play in the All Academic game.

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Smitty28 posted:

Arizona Fall Classic Jr in AZ and PG WWBA World Championship in Jupiter are at the same time this year...if you are a 2019 who is interested in "higher academic" schools on both coasts (not necessarily Ivy), which is a better place to be seen and be recruited at?

Whichever one you can get on a roster to play in the event. AZFC is tough to get into as a team, I have heard the waiting list for teams is 5+ years. The WWBA World Championship is also an invitation only event...if you are on a team in that event you are lucky and should attend. AZFC is also scripted in that they bat 6 per inning, it's really a showcase as opposed to a real game like WWBA. However if you look at the list of schools that attend the event which AZFC puts out, it is a very strong showing of schools. You can also try to get into the AZFC All Academic tryout and game. As the name implies, there are academic requirements to meet for eligibility, but that tryout alone gets you in front of a ton of high academic schools, more if you are selected from that group to play in the All Academic game.

Thanks, that's good input.  The All-Academic game is definitely interesting.  Son has a chance to go to either and since both are excellent maybe we'll wait to see what his coach recommends rather than push one way or the other.

adbono posted:

Smitty28 posted:

Arizona Fall Classic Jr in AZ and PG WWBA World Championship in Jupiter are at the same time this year...if you are a 2019 who is interested in "higher academic" schools on both coasts (not necessarily Ivy), which is a better place to be seen and be recruited at?

If your target is "higher academic schools on both coasts" look into Play To Win & Head First.  Both of those organizations are designed to place kids in the schools you described. I have friends that have had good success with both - especially if D3 is your destination.

Yes Head First is definitely on his list.  He couldn't attend this summer due to conflicts but there's on in November in Jupiter - anyone know if this is as well attended as the others?

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Smitty28 posted:

Arizona Fall Classic Jr in AZ and PG WWBA World Championship in Jupiter are at the same time this year...if you are a 2019 who is interested in "higher academic" schools on both coasts (not necessarily Ivy), which is a better place to be seen and be recruited at?

Whichever one you can get on a roster to play in the event. AZFC is tough to get into as a team, I have heard the waiting list for teams is 5+ years. The WWBA World Championship is also an invitation only event...if you are on a team in that event you are lucky and should attend. AZFC is also scripted in that they bat 6 per inning, it's really a showcase as opposed to a real game like WWBA. However if you look at the list of schools that attend the event which AZFC puts out, it is a very strong showing of schools. You can also try to get into the AZFC All Academic tryout and game. As the name implies, there are academic requirements to meet for eligibility, but that tryout alone gets you in front of a ton of high academic schools, more if you are selected from that group to play in the All Academic game.

Even the try-outs for the Academic game is well attended.  What I like about the AZ Fall Classic events is that the fields are all at the same complex.  The college coaches don't have to drive from one park to another to catch someone they are interested in.

Smitty28 posted:

adbono posted:

Smitty28 posted:

Arizona Fall Classic Jr in AZ and PG WWBA World Championship in Jupiter are at the same time this year...if you are a 2019 who is interested in "higher academic" schools on both coasts (not necessarily Ivy), which is a better place to be seen and be recruited at?

If your target is "higher academic schools on both coasts" look into Play To Win & Head First.  Both of those organizations are designed to place kids in the schools you described. I have friends that have had good success with both - especially if D3 is your destination.

Yes Head First is definitely on his list.  He couldn't attend this summer due to conflicts but there's on in November in Jupiter - anyone know if this is as well attended as the others?

Look into Play To Win.  It's not as well known, but they get results.

Consultant posted:

PNW2017;

please see the web site for the Pacific Northwest annual events. During my time with the Area Code games, I visited many cities in the Northwest and we selected outstanding talent.

https://baseballnorthwest.com/...hwest-championships/

Over 70% of the Area Code players did not have a College scholarship until after the AC games. During the games 1987 -2004,  we created annual clinics for the players to learn from former MLB players.

We had agents try to promote their players. Showcase "promoters" pretending to be parents for the lower entry fee.

Each year players were placed who were not recommend by a pro scout and I placed in the games and they later played in the Major Leagues - Chase Headley, Albert Pujols, Jesse Barfield, Adam LaRoche to name a few.

Dustin Pedroia Red Sox was a "great example" of the cooperation with  pro scouts and the success of the games and Goodwill Series International. "Baseball Scout" from the HS web site was the SF Giants scout who selected Dustin and assisted in his decision to attend ASU.

"all in the 16 hour days".

Bob

 

Definitely know everything about Baseball Northwest and I would definitely recommend getting involved in this organization. As I am a 2017, I will no longer be attending baseball nw events, but I did complete my last summer tournament as a young 2017 with bbnw at the pg 17u World Series. For anyone thinking about getting involved with bbnw, if selected, you can go to the senior nw championships drawing over 150 schools, prospectwire east v west, pg World Series, Arizona fall classics, and Jupiter. I attended all with bbnw and they provided me with great experiences and I have the upmost respect for the coaches within the organization.

SANDIEGOREALIST,

I understand you are just being critical about the All American Classic and not so much Perfect Game. And there is nothing wrong with that opinion. It’s just there is more to it than that. I hope I can write this politely because I’m not interested in fighting about it.

Of course, we want to promote our brand, but don't think everything we do only revolves around promoting our brand. We have an event planned with MLB that will be televised this fall. The problem is, you really don’t know us very well. You don’t know why we do everything. So until you get to know those people who you think you have figured out… Yes, you might as well have fallen off that turnip truck you mentioned.

You have completely missed one fact. This game is not about exposure to scouts and college recruiters. While they might be most interested in watching, they do know these players already. I never said these players need exposure. You are correct in saying they don’t need the exposure. There's just so much more to it than that.

You have stated that you know what OUR MOTIVATION IS? You are telling people what PG IS HOPING to gain. You are assuming we are just like any other business. You must not know… I hate business and have never claimed to be good at it. I have been a member here from the beginning. Go back and look at posts from years ago. Not everyone is motivated by money or business. People that know our business know our weakest area is marketing. I have told many, if you lack talent don’t waste your time and money on Perfect Game, because we can’t help you. Why would I come on here and argue about some of the things you are claiming. There isn’t anything you have said that would insult a true businessman. Nothing you have said is harmful and you have said some nice things as well. You simply do not know me and what motivates me. Some of our greatest accomplishments, that I am most proud of, involve kids that weren’t among the best players we see.

Once again, you are assuming we are a normal business. You need to talk to people that actually know me. Not those that claim to know me, because they met me somewhere, but those that really do know me and how I think and what trips my trigger. Then you might be more likely to question my intelligence rather than this other stuff.

We have lots of ideas… Our people come in and present ideas to bring in revenue. Every idea has to pass a test and answer one question. That question is… Is it good for the game? If in our estimation that question isn’t yes… We don’t do it. The PGAAC is one of many things we do that, we are totally convinced, is good for the game. It is even good way beyond the game! Every time a hometown, a high school, a travel team, a coach, pediatric cancer awareness, or anything else is mentioned on national television… It is a good thing!

I’m not special, I’m and old scout and college coach. I am a baseball lifer and a baseball nut. I was shocked when USA Today named me #57 in their list of top 100 most powerful people in MLB. #56 and #58 were Joe Maddon and Brian Cashman. I was the only person on the list that does what we do. I personally know hundreds of people much more powerful than me. An honor yes, but not so much a deserving one. I think it was more about Perfect Game’s position, accomplishments, and reputation than it was about me personally being influential.

Really, other than what I have mentioned above, I have no problem with your opinions, but this comment following your post does truly bother me. Looks like you have a new worshipper based on this statement!

Hallelujah !!  Can I get an Amen ?!