Torque the handle?

JJA, there are two areas for late swing adjustability, pitch location and timing....This is, IMO, a timing adjustment...

Now, I've never read Adair, so, is he saying there is not time for either, or just location adjustment?

Casting would be over extension beyond the control of the hands.

This is why Ted Williams put so much emphasis on hand and forearm strength.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Both hands.

I often refer to this action as if the batter were throwing the bat at the base on the foul line in front of him.

Quincy,

Please answer all three questions so I can tell where you are coming from.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

quote:

....there is only a small amount of torque from launch until contact.

This could be the torque that helps alot to square up the barrel of the bat on the ball, though......Perhaps, the degree of torque is less important than the fact that there is some vs. trying to square up the barrel of the bat on the ball with hands connecting to the shoulder and rotating.....

Run them by me again.

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quincy:
The hand torque that he refers to is the weight of the bat head exerting force on the wrists causing them to bend. (rearward first blur often seen on video)

That has to be a really heavy bat, lol. What force? From what power source? Is there something in the hips that can put force on the wrists and cause them to bend??? Wow!


The arms extend to react and 'catch up' to the bat head speed only to have the wrists uncocked again by the weight of the bat head in motion. (second blur on video before contact)


Quinc,

What put the bathead in motion in the first place?



Notice the first move is pulling the bat down into the swing at aproximately a 90 degree angle to the bat.

Here they are Quincy. Just below each bolded area.

Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Casting would be over extension beyond the control of the hands.

This is why Ted Williams put so much emphasis on hand and forearm strength.

Nope!

Guys,

The decision to either check the swing or swing is made before the ball is half way to the plate (at least for the 90 mph fastball Adair is assuming in his example). Yep, I know it's totally unintuitive, but that's the phsyics of what is happening. It isn't a PCR thing, a Lau, HI, or whatever. It's method independent.

For example, in the check swing or swing example, early in the decision making process, the decision is made to swing. During the succeeding milliseconds the brain processes information and makes the decision to not swing. This decision is made before the ball is half way to the plate. By the time the brain processes this information and passes it to the muscles, the ball has had time to reach the plate and the swing checked. But the body can't physically respond any quicker than that. It's impossible.

Again, I suggest you read Adair, The Physics of Baseball, Chapter 3, end of chapter. It's an easy to follow explanation of what the body does. As an aside, this data isn't controversial. Even Epstein, not exactly a rocket scientist himself, uses this data in support of his position that you shouldn't look the ball onto the bat because there is no purpose in doing so. Your brain/muscles can't do anything once the ball reaches half way to the plate, well before you've started your swing.

quote:

The hand torque that he refers to is the weight of the bat head exerting force on the wrists causing them to bend. (rearward first blur often seen on video)

That has to be a really heavy bat, lol. What force? From what power source? Is there something in the hips that can put force on the wrists and cause them to bend??? Wow!


The arms extend to react and 'catch up' to the bat head speed only to have the wrists uncocked again by the weight of the bat head in motion. (second blur on video before contact)


Quinc,

What put the bathead in motion in the first place?

The force in question is the weight of the bat head in motion. The first move in throwing and hitting is pulling. The relative weight of the bat head is enough to put strain on the wrists.

The bat is put in motion by pulling the arms down into the swing (triceps). The wrists give or uncock because they are the weakest point on the pendulum.

You are mistaken about the need for strength in the hands and forearms in maintaining string tension.

quote:

If you have time to come into an open forum and post about Drew Stubbs, then you have time to count to 4 or 5 on quicktime. Most scouts dont bring a video camera to games, my dad did. He felt it was a valuable tool to help re-evaluate when he got home.

Scouts "Dont have time to count frames"...C'mon Jeff. How long do you think it takes to upload a video onto a laptop and then count to five?....three minutes?

Dmac used frame counting, but it was just another tool to help evaluate....Like a stopwatch. By no means was this his be all, end all in evaluating. The thing with hitters my dad loved were actions, power, and the ability to hit the friday night starter....things not often discussed in here....things most instuctors dont teach, recognize, or know anythng about.

1st of all...Have you been to a high profile amatuer players game?
2nd 15 of 20 scouts will have a video camera.
3rd Do they know what to do with what they videoed?
NO
4th They video and then send the tape in to the office every two weeks and then start a new tape.
5th The season hasn't started so I can sit a type about whatever I choose to.
6th As you said...the camera is a tool. It didn't tell you or your Dad or any scout if that guy could play in the big leagues.
7th Come on, are you kidding! How many scouts do you think know how to upload a video clip and then count to 5. Do they have seperate computers from their work ones? We aren't allowed to add or delete anything from ours.
8th MY POINT TO A T !!!!!
DOUG DIDN"T HAVE TO USE IT. HE KNEW A SWING AND HITTER WHEN HE SAW IT....AND YOU, being his son, KNOW THIS!

The thing with hitters my dad loved were actions, power, and the ability to hit the friday night starter.... NOW THAT IS SCOUTING. SAVE THE VIDEO FOR THE SCOUTING BUREAU!

quote:

.....(at least for the 90 mph fastball Adair is assuming in his example).....

Swing adjustments definitely would be more of a non-factor at this speed, and above...Rarely, would a hitter want to make a late swing adjustment at this speed.....The ball is coming fast and with not alot of movement....

The late swing adjustments that need to be made are at slower pitches with more movement....Fastballs aren't as unpredictable as offspeed pitches....And, fastballs aren't disguised as another pitch...Offspeed pitches are disguised as fastballs, so, you need to be able to adjust as late as possible...

quote:

The bat is put in motion by pulling the arms down into the swing (triceps). The wrists give or uncock because they are the weakest point on the pendulum.

Quincy,

This action will make the bat blur rearward???

yup

Pulling the bat handle down at aprox a 90 degree angle to the bat will cause the bat head to whip.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
yup

Pulling the bat handle down at aprox a 90 degree angle to the bat will cause the bat head to whip.

Pulling it down with which hand?

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Both hands.

I often refer to this action as if the batter were throwing the bat at the base on the foul line in front of him.

Paralysis by Analysis

Great hitters are born.

Said Whitey Lockman, who has touched all the bases and is approaching his 60th season in the grand old game:

"Only God can make a great hitter!"

Al Lopez, the Hall of Fame manager now retired after 40 years in the big leagues, if he knew of a batting coach who improved any hitters?

Lopez laughed.

I asked again.

"No, I can't think of any," he replied.

"If someone swung at a bad ball, they'd say `You're swinging at a bad ball.' That was the extent of their instruction."

Ted Williams, the best left-handed hitter since Babe Ruth, was mentioned.

"Ted tried to impart his knowledge," Lockman said. "He wrote books. He spent a thousand hours instructing hitters. But who could hit like Ted Williams or Stan Musial? You can get all the help you can but you can't get it done. Most players, 99 percent of them, aren't that good,"

It was Lockman's turn to ask a question.

"Ichiro (Suzuki) led the American League in hitting. Who helped him? Nobody. He helped himself because he's a natural hitter. Do you suppose the Seattle batting coach screwed around with him? I hope not."

Lockman mentioned Charlie Lau and Walt Hriniak, two of the better known recent batting coaches.

"What kind of hitters were they? Yet, a lot of people said they made great hitters out of poor hitters. I never believed it. The best batting coaches are the ones who have the best hitters."

Chuck Tanner agreed,

"If a guy is a .250 hitter, he's going to hit .250. It's as simple as that."


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCI/is_3_61/ai_82472895

COACH: Are great hitters born or made? What made Tony Gwynn great?

GWYNN: I think it's a combination of both. I think great hitters are born but you still have to work at it. My dad used to tell me when I was little that I had the God-given ability to put a bat on the ball. But if you don't work at it and turn it into something consistently good, you're not going to make it.

"Playing baseball is all that I ever wanted to do with my life," Palmeiro, 38, said. "I could always hit, even as a kid."

Thirty years later, the skinny youngster with that cool thin mustache from Miami is all grown up. The sweet swing he developed as a young boy has carried him to 500 home runs and the annals of Major League Baseball history. His next stop could be 600 homers.

"He's a home run hitter, always has been," said San Francisco's Barry Bonds, one of only four members of the 600 Homer Club. "He was that way in college along with Will Clark (at Mississippi State). A good hitter is a good hitter. He's strong and he has a good swing. He's been a home run hitter since he was born."

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Casting would be over extension beyond the control of the hands.

This is why Ted Williams put so much emphasis on hand and forearm strength.

Nope!

power,

If you know why Williams said that, instead of just saying "Nope" why don't you enlighten us. Please richard

quote:

Originally posted by ShawnLee:

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Casting would be over extension beyond the control of the hands.

This is why Ted Williams put so much emphasis on hand and forearm strength.

Nope!

power,

If you know why Williams said that, instead of just saying "Nope" why don't you enlighten us. Please richard

Hand strength comes from forearm strength. Doing drills or exercises to strengthen your grip, in turn, strengthen your forearms.

You need both for good batspeed. To torque the bat handle to catch up with 95+ Pitching and MLB type off speed, you need strong hands and forearms to manipulate the bathead, FNJMO.

quote:

"If a guy is a .250 hitter, he's going to hit .250. It's as simple as that."

I don't believe that for a minute...unless he is unteachable, like some on this site! Jorge Posada is a prime example.

quote:

I don't believe that for a minute...unless he is unteachable, like some on this site!

You don't torque the bat handle. the bat head torques the hands and wrists.

You don't seem to be able to grasp what torque actually is.

quote:

Originally posted by powertoallfields:

quote:

"If a guy is a .250 hitter, he's going to hit .250. It's as simple as that."

I don't believe that for a minute...unless he is unteachable, like some on this site!

I guess all those top-line Pro's who share the same opinion/conclusion are all wet !!

Example:

Premier summer program head coach who also helps develop hitters has a nice group of players that include one born a natural hitter. They all go through the same drills and methodology. The result.

You have a group of nice hitters, and one who still stands out way above the rest.

quote:

You don't torque the bat handle. the bat head torques the hands and wrists.

Quincy, the barrel of the bat doesn't swing itself....Would be nice if it did, but, it doesn't....If it did, Posada would be able to hit!

quote:

Example:

Premier summer program head coach who also helps develop hitters has a nice group of players that include one born a natural hitter. They all go through the same drills and methodology. The result.

You have a group of nice hitters, and one who still stands out way above the rest.

I will admit, this is the norm.....You have made an excellent point!!

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:

quote:

I don't believe that for a minute...unless he is unteachable, like some on this site!

You don't torque the bat handle. the bat head torques the hands and wrists.

You don't seem to be able to grasp what torque actually is.

You can manipulate the bathead by dropping the bat, other than that.....something else has to manipulate direction and speed.

quote:

Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:

I guess all those top-line Pro's who share the same opinion/conclusion are all wet !!

Example:

Premier summer program head coach who also helps develop hitters has a nice group of players that include one born a natural hitter. They all go through the same drills and methodology. The result.

You have a group of nice hitters, and one who still stands out way above the rest.

It is true that all hitters, even if they are using perfect mechanics, can't hit .350 or better, even .300 or better. It then comes down to natural ability, eye sight, strength, hand/eye coordination, ability to handle stress, pitch selection, and many other factors. But, in your example, if this group of hitters did not have perfect mechanics and were taught them (which means they learned them and could apply them) they WOULD get better. That, my friend, is what an Instructor is SUPPOSED to do.

quote:

Great hitters are born.

True, but if they have bad mechanics, they won't make it to the MLB. How many have been lost due to poor instruction or the lack of quality instruction??? That is the big question.

quote:

You can manipulate the bathead by dropping the bat, other than that.....something else has to manipulate direction and speed.

Once the method is established all that is left is aim.

This holds true in all things from catapults to bullets to baseball.

Swing method would establish swing speed and direction of swing to where you are aiming.

If you are born a great hitter you just need to refine what you do---

I'm still looking for the Yogi Berra School of hitting.

quote:

Great hitters are born with great mechanics

That's just stupid!

Jeff

quote:

1st of all...Have you been to a high profile amatuer players game?
2nd 15 of 20 scouts will have a video camera.

Yes. I watched Blake Bleaven last year. I was recording along with an agent. The other scouts were all in the bleachers with thier radar guns...understandably so. (There was one tri-pod behind the plate recording that may have been a scouts). Scouts should/could use video more. It makes to much sense not to.

quote:

3rd Do they know what to do with what they videoed?
NO

Im sure they appreciate your vote of confidence. What are you refering to, how to load it up/ or what to look for?

quote:

4th They video and then send the tape in to the office every two weeks and then start a new tape.

Not every team does this. Maybe yours does (good for them if they do), but I know for a fact its not all teams.

quote:

5th The season hasn't started so I can sit a type about whatever I choose to.

OK, but the JUCO season started yesterday. Maybe your a pro coverage guy, I dont know. Even when the season get further along you will have time to post. It takes less time than reading the paper.

quote:

DOUG DIDN"T HAVE TO USE IT. HE KNEW A SWING AND HITTER WHEN HE SAW IT....AND YOU, being his son, KNOW THIS!

Your right, I do know this....but, he still used video. He trusted video, and didnt want to make an unessessary mistake.

I went on many scouting trips with my father. Some as a boy, and some as a man. I learned a ton from him, and with any luck I will be able to pass some of that onto my boy.

I forgive your cold remarks you made last month, and hope you continue to post in this forum....It could use more professional opinions.

-Dale

Trying to read through this thread.

I wanted to read it to see if Tom could finally explain the ML pattern. Usually it involves absolutly nothing to do with with a ML swing. I wanted to see if anything has changed.

But, getting through the first pages I came across somone advocating door knocking knuclkes, palms forward and back, and tricep extension. I didn't know dinosars existed anymore. Just goes to show all things will become anew no matter how bad it was the first time around.

To each their own, I will not agrue over useless information, what you believe is what you believe and you can only teach what you can understand. Everyone has to believe in something, how else could you teach anything. That goes for Tom to, whatever makes up the ML pattern this month. I need to read on to find out.

I'm glad that you appreciate a swing that could allow a 5'8" catcher to hit 358 homers lifetime to go along with his three AL MVP's and World Series rings for every finger. (That's both hands.)

Must be something about that swing.

quote:

After a few attempts, they learn to hold back (or pull back) the top-hand at the shoulder and allow shoulder rotation to accelerate the bat-head back.

I lost my post Tom, anyways, I had to read this twice because he might have finally seen the light. Let's see who explained this to him many years ago?

The rest of it is just dogma. That I don't feel like going back over at this time(I hate it when posts get messed up)

Oldslugger,

I think your right, ultimately it's a gift from God.

However I have heard many great hitters say they worked very hard, Hank Aaron being one of them. He just had more to work with then most.

Giambi reminds of someone, Tino Martinez. Tino played for us first before he left to replace Don Mattingly. I did at one time have a swing when he was a Mariner and I compared to when he was a Yankee when his hitting started to go south. He had many good years with the Yankees. His swing was much more fluid when he was a Mariner. When he started to go south, it looked like he was very tight. Like he tried to force/muscle the swing.

That's the thing about a swing, you could be great one year and not the next. You never know when it will disappear, you might have it 5, 10, 15, 20, years. You just never know. There might be thousands or even millions that experienced it over a year or two and lost it. At all levels of play.

Many people experience it, few have it as long as the great hitters.

powertoallfields,

Quincy does not know what he's talking about nor does he know how the human body works. That is why you have to keep asking him questions. His answers will not be clear enough for you because he cannot explain what high level hitters do. He does not understand supination and pronation of the forearms. All he sees is triceps and biceps.

Quincy,

So first I need to accelerate the bat and THEN aim?

And how does the bat torque the hands if it is the hands that get the bat to the ball? Are you saying the bat gets the hands to the ball? What force that does the bat produce that "torques" the hands?

bbdoug,

How can you put Mankin in the same sentence as PCR? Makin is far from PCR. Mankin is a separation and handle torque guy. PCR is rotate your shoulders and hips at the same time and hold on to the bat. PCR does not believe in separation. High level MLB hitters exhibit separation and use their hands to get the bat to the ball.

Dale

I never made a cold remark, especially about Doug. I thought alot of your father and like any two scouts or two coaches or two baseball minds, we didn't always agree. I don't find it disrespectful to disagree over a game. I always did and will respect his experience and valuable points of view. I know it was a devastating loss to you and Brett and the family. Let me add, I was at the SEC baseball tournament in Alabama when I got the news. I sat right there in the stands and cried and I had never met your Dad except through these hitting forums. I was shocked.

As for scouting, I do mostly amatuer, like your Dad did. And do the typical pro stuff in the summer around some college summer league assignments with big league stuff in September along with advance work if we happen to be contending for the playoff's.

As for other scouts. Most video, only a few do not. Does the area scout spend the time to break it down? Maybe some do, still doesn't mean they break it down correctly or even do break it down. They just may watch it in slow motion. I'd say that the frame counting in pro baseball is infant at best.

And the season starting thingy. You watch any Juco baseball lately? especially in Tx.? Good scouts have a pulse on the talent and where to be. They spend the fall doing that. I have been at a game everyday since Jan. 25th. And the newspaper thingy. Dale, not many guys in the game spend as much time on the internet doing baseball stuff like your Dad or you or I do. They are doing other things.

And a last note, Good scouts do video. They just don't want all the other scouts seeing them video. It tips the hand. You can not slow motion instincts and game awareness on a video tape.

And as I said in a PM to you. I'm sorry if you felt bad about any comment I made. It was not my intent. SO please accept my public apology now. Thanks, Jeff

XV

I went back and reread my post. I see how you got your impression. My intention was to contrast mankin and pcr. I just did it badly.

quote:

Originally posted by XV:
powertoallfields,

Quincy does not know what he's talking about nor does he know how the human body works. That is why you have to keep asking him questions. His answers will not be clear enough for you because he cannot explain what high level hitters do. He does not understand supination and pronation of the forearms. All he sees is triceps and biceps.

Quincy,

So first I need to accelerate the bat and THEN aim?

And how does the bat torque the hands if it is the hands that get the bat to the ball? Are you saying the bat gets the hands to the ball? What force that does the bat produce that "torques" the hands?

Your Socratic method will only expose your attempts to baffle with bull shoes rather than dazzle with brilliance.

So first I need to accelerate the bat and THEN aim?

This a mere attempt at distortion. Once the swing style is established, the method, all that is left is to aim.

And how does the bat torque the hands if it is the hands that get the bat to the ball?

Once the arms fire the bat to the point aimed at, the bat is a projectile. The weight of the bat head causes torque (external force causing the center to rotate) on the hands and wrists. I'm sure you have heard the term 'wrists uncocking'.

Are you saying the bat gets the hands to the ball?

By causing the wrists to uncock, yes.

What force that does the bat produce that "torques" the hands?

The weight of the bat head in motion produces an external force on the hands and wrists. That force is called torque.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:



Once the arms fire the bat to the point aimed at, the bat is a projectile. The weight of the bat head causes torque (external force causing the center to rotate) on the hands and wrists. I'm sure you have heard the term 'wrists uncocking'.

Are you saying the bat gets the hands to the ball?

By causing the wrists to uncock, yes.

What force that does the bat produce that "torques" the hands?

The weight of the bat head in motion produces an external force on the hands and wrists. That force is called torque.

So...the arms fire the bat??? Not the hips and hands? Then, the weight of the bathead uncocks the wrists? So...the hands must kind of hold onto the bat lightly, huh? How fast do the arms have to get the bat moving and how heavy does the bat have to be in order to hit a 98mph fastball out of the infield with light grip pressure? Just give me the math part, since you must be a Physics Professor.