Torque the handle?

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Basically, he said everybody is saying the same thing but using different terminology. He said it would make more sense if everybody quit trying to sound like an engineer and say precisely what they meant by hand position,etc. so there would not be any argument. LOL (Fat chance).

Supination of the top hand, and pronation of the bottom hand. I said that before.

quote:

Doubt he made anybody's point..if he did he made everybody's point. Read his next ststement about the bathead and handle.

He actually thought what we were discussing was funny. He did say that the only true torque that occurs to the length wise axis of a bat happens as the elbow slots and the hands are working themselves to an over/under position...and he said that is pushing the definition somewhat.

How does one hand get under or over the other? Forearm rotation, otherwise known as pronation or supination.

quote:

He said "watch MLB hitters hips/hands and how quickly they slot the elbow during the rotation of the hips;

The elbow responds to the hands. The elbow slotting is technically "external rotation" of the humerus. The ribs being in the way prevents any further external rotation of the humerus.

quote:

that's where the bat quickness starts that a MLB hitter has that most players don't".

This would be early bat speed.

quote:

He said "the hands are important in any swing but having the hands in the right position at the proper point in time is initiated through the kinetic chain relying on the torso for torque and rotational power. The body without the hands to transmit the power is useless also; you must have both in unison".

Having the hands in the right position is initiated with the hands. If the hands can't control themselves, find a lighter bat. The hips without the (load of) the hands have nothing to load against.

quote:

Unfortunately he added " what you guys are discussing is based on another, much more imporatnt factor...pitch recognition. Everything you are discussing is reliant on visual cues and those change based on speed,location and angle. I won't even get into spin or varying light conditions. You guys are making alot of assumptions on factors out of a hitters control. I'd advise all of you to quit thinking and just swing the bat at good pitches".

I am making assumptions on a fastball in the middle of the plate.

----

Go back and give your buddy this scenario:

Drill a 12mm wide hexagon-shaped hole into a point on handle of the bat between where your top hand and bottom hand would be. Now go find a 12mm nut or bolt to go torque. What are we doing? We are moving the handle in opposite directions about a pivot point. Torque occurs at the pivot point. I stated that before. Go check one of my previous posts.

But our goal is not torquing a nut/bolt. Our goal is moving the bat head. The bat head is solidly connected to our bat handle. The bat handle is our lever. Because the bat head is at one end of our lever (bat handle), we are able to move the bat head because we move the handle in OPPOSITE directions about a pivot point between our hands. We are doing the same thing when we cut off the bat head, drill a hexagon into the handle, and use the handle has a wrench.

Do you guys not understand anything I have written so far? Please tell me no. I need another good laugh.

Where do you get these bats with the imaginary holes in em?

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Where do you get these bats with the imaginary holes in em?

Your mind is closed. Tell me again not to use my quads in the eccentric phase of a squat. I need a good laugh. I dare you to tell John Doyle that.

My mind isn't closed.

I'm just not blinded by some doctrine, nor do I have a doctrine so flawed that it needs defense.

Some things are simply self-evident.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
My mind isn't closed.

I'm just not blinded by some doctrine, nor do I have a doctrine so flawed that it needs defense.

Some things are simply self-evident.

Your idea of how the human body works is flawed. Please go delete your posts in that other "Torque" thread so that no one actually follows your advice on how to do a squat.

XV

You're totally missing his primary point...everybody here is trying to say just about the same thing but they are all speaking different languages. You claim you said this stuff before...why could an engineer say it in terms we all understand and you could not? Granted, the engineer probably knows more about the swing than most of us do but he still speaks English like all of us. Differnce is that he is not trying to win an argument or prove he is right.

Example is torque...very bad choice of words to describe a pivot point between the hands which everybody would understand. He said that "whoever dreamed this up as a reference word to convey this action should be shot".

Called him again last night about the pendulum action..."Awww Jesus, not that stuff" was pretty the gist. He advised we all go take Kinesiology classes.

You contend the hands drive the swing or at least are the focal point, others say the body...his point was all of that is pointless if the body's components are in unison and in the proper sequence at a given point in the swing. No one part can do the job alone.

Nothing anybody (that includes everybody involved in any of the threads, you and me included) has said is any newer than what was taught 50 years ago. The problem is nobody yet has said how do you teach this stuff to young hitters. Knowledge without the ability to convey it is ultimately useless.

All we have been doing here is debating with no intent to reach a consensus on teaching; it's solely a debate where everybody is trying to prove that their small piece of the puzzle is the most important piece, without looking at the entire puzzle itself.

Just consider this...are MLB hitters today better than MLB hitters 50 years ago, even with all the new training and teaching aids available? Not to mention diluted pitching, lower mound height, juiced balls....why aren't more hitters at .300 or higher? Why so many SO's and bad fundamentals? Are we too hung up on swing mechanics versus pitch recognition...I wish I knew that answer.

And stop with the dumb*** statements about the short yellow school bus. Takes alot of guts to diss the handicapped. Before running your mouth, go to the Special Olympics just once....you will come back and kick every ballplayer you know in the @#$ for their lack of work ethic compared to those kids.

quote:

The problem is nobody yet has said how do you teach this stuff to young hitters. Knowledge without the ability to convey it is ultimately useless.

S. Abrams,

I have posted the quote from Mankin and Tom has posted the quote from Mankin. What else is their to teach? Here it is again.


"As a hitter initiates the swing, it is very tough to keep his hands back when he is concentrating on swinging the bat-head forward. If a coach would have the hitter envision the bat-head first accelerating back toward the catcher at initiation, the batters hands would have to stay back to accelerate the bat-head in that direction.

"When we ask the body to perform an athletic movement, the sub-conscious mind will set up a motor program for the rest of the body to aid in accomplishing the task.

"Therefore, I have found that if I can get the batter to correctly envision the bat-head first accelerating rearward to the lag position before he directs his energy toward the ball, the more likely he will generate the most productive hip and shoulder rotation to accomplish the task.

"If, on the other hand, the batter’s vision of the swing is only forward, he will have the tendency to first extend the hands. This is mainly accomplished by using the arms to thrust the hands and knob, which does not require good hip and shoulder rotation. With this vision of the swing, keeping the hands back is at odds with his forward vision. He now has to consciously think, “Hips First.” -- Using cues to override a batter’s natural tendency to think forward is not as effective as changing how they invision the swing.

"Once I feel the batter is starting to have the correct vision of the swing, I use the cue, “Rotate the heel (initiate lower-body rotation) – Rotate the bat-head (initiate the acceleration back toward the catcher”). I ask the student, “what must you do with the top-hand as your elbow lowers to accelerate the bat-head back at the catcher?” After a few attempts, they learn to hold back (or pull back) the top-hand at the shoulder and allow shoulder rotation to accelerate the bat-head back. When they start to get the bat to accelerate correctly, the hips just naturally rotate ahead of the hands and they have the “L” in the back-leg at contact."

Jack Mankin



----------This is about as clear as it gets, IMO.

quote:

When we ask the body to perform an athletic movement, the sub-conscious mind will set up a motor program for the rest of the body to aid in accomplishing the task.

This I can agree with.

Making adjustments to that program is what an instructor should be after.

Promoting an ideaology is like promoting a religion. There is only one way to do things.

Typical Mankin detail:

http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/output/19418.html

Hi All

I have pointed out many times, for a batter to generate his maximum bat speed, his swing mechanics must accelerate the bat-head around the entire swing plane. This means the batter must first accelerate the bat-head rearward (or back toward the catcher) before he starts to accelerate the bat toward the ball.

## I am looking at a rear view of Barry Bonds – first clip in the second row -
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/swings.html -- By about frame #16, Barry has brought the bat to where it is directly over his head. From that point, for the next few frames, the bat-head is being accelerated in an arc back toward the catcher. ##

There are many coaches who still teach their batters “not to release the bat-head too soon, – keep it back until the hands extend.” However, most coaches that have studied the swings of the best hitters and understand rotational transfer principles, know that to attain maximum bat speed, the bat-head must accelerate around the swing plane right from initiation – this means first back toward the catcher.

Note: After much study and discussion, most coaches who have posted to this Site now agree with the above principle. However, that was certainly not the case when I first presented this finding from my study of the baseball swing on the Site.

Although we agree the bat-head is accelerated rearward, there is disagreement in defining the mechanics great hitters apply to generate that acceleration. I have long maintained that the batter induces the rearward acceleration by shoulder adduction and forearm “pulling the top-hand back around a slower moving (or more stationary) bottom-hand (THT).

There are coaches, such as WT in his post below, who believe there is no “pulling back” of the top-hand. They believe it is strictly the rotation of the shoulders and the lowering of the back-elbow to the slot that accelerates the bat-head rearward. I fully agree that these are important factors of the mechanic. However, I would like to make a few points for your consideration.

If the bat-head is accelerating rearward around a slower moving bottom-hand, then the top-hand must also be arcing back around the bottom-hand. How much bat-head acceleration occurs as the shoulders rotate and the elbow lowers depends on the direction of force the top-hand applies to the handle of the bat. Since the bat-head and top-hand are rotating rearward, maximum acceleration is generated when the pulling back of the forearm causes the top-hand to apply force in the same direction the bat-head is accelerating – rearward at that point.

Great hitters generate great bat speed because they are pulling back on the handle with the ‘fingers’ of the top-hand during initiation. Average hitters also lower their elbow to the slot as they rotate just like the best hitters. However, they produce only average bat speed because their top-hand is pushing with the ‘palm’ on the handle instead of pulling back with the ‘fingers’ during initiation. Applying a force with the palm means the force is directed forward which drives the knob forward, instead of accelerating the bat-head rearward. This result is much less bat speed being generated.

It is the natural tendency of hitters (including most pro hitters) to accelerate the bat-head to the ball. Therefore, it is more natural for them to drive the bat-head forward during initaition by pushing forward with the palm of the top-hand. Since the back-shoulder and hands (as a unit) are starting to be rotated forward, it feels unnatural for the top-hand to be pulling rearward. Only the best hitters accelerate the bat-head around the entire swing plane by first pulling back with the fingers as the elbow lowers.

Coaches, we can keep it simple and just teach the student what is more natural – rotate the hips – slot the elbow – take the hands to the ball palmup/palmdown. That is easier for the coach and less confusing to the player than teaching the mechanics of the great hitters. -- As for me, I find the results is well worth the extra effort.

Jack Mankin

quote:

Although we agree the bat-head is accelerated rearward, there is disagreement in defining the mechanics great hitters apply to generate that acceleration.

Leverage. Pulling the handle down into the swing causes the rearward movement of the bat head.

Though I try to avoid the complexity of the kinetic chain, there is no doubt that the force generated on the bat handle by the combined contraction of muscles along the chain is enormous.

The best way to teach is to keep it simple and entertaining. Trying to complicate or over-explain subconscious reaction is futile.

quote:

Great hitters generate great bat speed because they are pulling back on the handle with the ‘fingers’ of the top-hand during initiation.

Quincy,

Are you saying the same thing as the above quote?

Leaving out the kinetic chain, the hands should be pulling the handle down to contact. This would set into motion the unconscious program spoken of.

Hip rotation may give the illusion that the hands are going back.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Leaving out the kinetic chain, the hands should be pulling the handle down to contact. This would set into motion the unconscious program spoken of.

Hip rotation may give the illusion that the hands are going back.

Pulling (straight) down on the handle is called leverage? No it's called tension. If you pull at an angle less than 180 degrees, it's called leverage. The pivot point is where the torque is. The pivot point is not in the same place on every swing.

Pulling down to contact causes a swing plane that is down. It does not square up the bat head to the ball. Pronation of the lead hand and supination of the top hand gets the hands "palm down/palm up" at contact. The shoulders don't get the hands in that position. The forearms do. The shoulders don't control the hands, the forearms do. If you can't control your hands, get a lighter bat.

The rearward blur is caused by rotation of the forearms, not by "pulling down", whatever that means. You teach a hitter to pull down on every swing, he will pull down on every swing. If he is pulling down on every swing how does he adjust to the inside pitch? He can't. You teach him to rotate/swivel his hands/foreams to get the hands palm up/palm down, he doesn't need to worry about pulling down.

The "pulling down" cue may work to create separation, but it does not work to create the barrel path.

The hands need to work in opposite directions, just like the hips. If the hands are working in the same direction, you are pushing the bat, you are not rotating it. What is it called when the hands work opposite of the hips? Torque. What is it called when the top hand works in opposite direction of the bottom hand? Torque.

Tom/powertoallfields

I like Mankins comments....with a disclaimer (you didn't really think I was going to be that easy, did you).

No argument that there is a pulling by the top hand. I don't believe it is a conscious decision nor do I believe the feel is solely caused merely by the top hand pulling back. I believe it is a combination of the elbow slotting causing the top hand to pull, bottom hand pulling forward causing this feel. The elbow doesn't slot....no pull feel and no amount of top hand pulling will get it done. The bottom hand isn't moving much but is exerting a pull forward resisting the pressure from the pull of the top hand/elbow slotting.

The feel without the elbow slotting is useless in developing batspeed...but slotting by itself won't generate bat quickness if the hands are dead and just along for the ride.

A danger young hitters have is during slotting they don't have any forward pull from the bottom hand so the elbows catch up to the hands causing them to drag the bat. The bat is dropping onto plane and the hips are moving but the hands are dead in the water. Classic bat drag versus bat lag.

Alot of Mankin I agree with..I just tend to differ as to the exact cause. What I totally agree with is that "early bat speed" is what sets hitters apart, not the top end batspeed though it's nice to have both.

Wonder if Mankin has ever surveyed the grip strength of the best hitters in MLB versus the average MLB hitter (as if any are truly average)? I would bet good money he would find the best hitters also have superior hand strength compared to most other players. Personally I have never seen a good hitter that didn't have strong hands.

I also wish hitting was a science instead of an art.LOL

Gotta go....the ballfield is waiting.

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams:
XV

You're totally missing his primary point...everybody here is trying to say just about the same thing but they are all speaking different languages. You claim you said this stuff before...why could an engineer say it in terms we all understand and you could not? Granted, the engineer probably knows more about the swing than most of us do but he still speaks English like all of us. Differnce is that he is not trying to win an argument or prove he is right.

I'd like to see him engineer a robot that can play in MLB. His "view" of the MLB swing may be slightly altered by his golf "experience". Did that occcur to you? MLB hitters don't have the time golfers do. MLB hitters have to use their hands before they need to. The last 2 frames are too late.

quote:

Example is torque...very bad choice of words to describe a pivot point between the hands which everybody would understand. He said that "whoever dreamed this up as a reference word to convey this action should be shot".

The hands are working in OPPOSITE directions about a pivot point. What do you call that? The ones who don't understand are the ones who actually think the hands don't work in opposite directions by way of pronation and supination of the forearms. Go read Quincy and JJA's posts. You must have missed that.

quote:

Called him again last night about the pendulum action..."Awww Jesus, not that stuff" was pretty the gist. He advised we all go take Kinesiology classes.

I advise he compare Barry Bonds and Adrian Beltre. Adrian Beltre is not using forearms properly. That also affects what his hips do. That year he hit 40+ homers, he had the swing down. After that, he lost it.

quote:

You contend the hands drive the swing or at least are the focal point, others say the body...his point was all of that is pointless if the body's components are in unison and in the proper sequence at a given point in the swing. No one part can do the job alone.

The hands are a focal part of the swing. The hands create the barrel path, the body does not. Whatever "body" means to you. Separation is created when you load the hands while opening the hips. You can't open the hips first, then load the hands. You load the hands first, the hips respond to the hands.

quote:

Nothing anybody (that includes everybody involved in any of the threads, you and me included) has said is any newer than what was taught 50 years ago. The problem is nobody yet has said how do you teach this stuff to young hitters. Knowledge without the ability to convey it is ultimately useless.

All we have been doing here is debating with no intent to reach a consensus on teaching; it's solely a debate where everybody is trying to prove that their small piece of the puzzle is the most important piece, without looking at the entire puzzle itself.

This thread is about what the hands do to the bat handle. Others seem to actually believe all that they do is "pull down" or "hold on to" the bat handle. The rotation of the forearms is a very big piece of the puzzle. The other piece is a separation/stretch and fire. We'll save that for another thread.

quote:

Just consider this...are MLB hitters today better than MLB hitters 50 years ago, even with all the new training and teaching aids available? Not to mention diluted pitching, lower mound height, juiced balls....why aren't more hitters at .300 or higher? Why so many SO's and bad fundamentals? Are we too hung up on swing mechanics versus pitch recognition...I wish I knew that answer.

There are too many players and too many variables. We'd have to look at each and every single player drafted. That's impossible. I don't know the answer to these questions. I'm not going to pretend to know.

I will bring up this question though. How many kids who will have learned hitting through the internet or personal instruction will become a HOF'er? Probably none, ever. I believe great hitters go through trial and error and their bodies are genetically gifted enough to "remember" and "repeat" a high level swing. The ones with lesser genetic makeup are the ones who have to ask "how do I make the bat do that". Trial and error does not work for them, at least not in the long run. They have to constantly train themselves to retain a high level swing. They need to "trial and NO error". They need to know exactly what needs to be done to get the bat moving in a high level swing. They cannot be taught "pull down on the handle". That is very vague. No, they need to be taught "rotate/swivel your forearms like this".

Old school cues only work for the genetically gifted who already have the high level swing and just need "get out of a slump". Telling a hitter to do exactly what you want them to do allows them to know what the high level swing is because they are "in a slump" all season, career, etc.

quote:

And stop with the dumb*** statements about the short yellow school bus. Takes alot of guts to diss the handicapped. Before running your mouth, go to the Special Olympics just once....you will come back and kick every ballplayer you know in the @#$ for their lack of work ethic compared to those kids.

As long as you don't make fun of my lab coat and pocket protector.

PTA,

you lack the basic understanding of the bat as a tool.

the pivot point is always the wrists.

you added (straight) changing the meaning

external pressure causing the center to rotate is called torque.

the weight of the bat head creates torque causing the wrists to rotate

the goal of the swing is to create bat speed to increase the effect of the collision of the bat and ball

it's simple.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
PTA,

you lack the basic understanding of the bat as a tool.

the pivot point is always the wrists.

you added (straight) changing the meaning

external pressure causing the center to rotate is called torque.

the weight of the bat head creates torque causing the wrists to rotate

the goal of the swing is to create bat speed to increase the effect of the collision of the bat and ball

it's simple.

BOTH wrists are A pivot point? Or just ONE of them? Or each wrist has it's own pivot point?

The goal of the swing is to able to attain the optimal bat speed AND quickness AND be able to adjust to 90MPH fastballs, 95MPH fastballs, 80MPH sliders, 60MPH knuckleballs, 75MPH curveballs, ON THE FLY, and any other pitch you can dream of.

How do we get there? We teach the form, the shape, then we teach them to do it quicker/faster. We don't say "just swing as hard as you can". Isn't this called "muscle memory"?

If the goal was only to create bat speed, you can go swing a broomstick and an axe to underload and overload. This does not teach your hands what to do. It does not teach the barrel path.

I guess a lot of lumberjacks would make great hitters, eh? Not unless they learn the correct barrel path.

quote:

external pressure causing the center to rotate is called torque.

The hands working in opposite directions about a center that is between the hands is called torque. Thanks for finally agreeing with me.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
PTA,

you lack the basic understanding of the bat as a tool.

the pivot point is always the wrists.

you added (straight) changing the meaning

external pressure causing the center to rotate is called torque.

the weight of the bat head creates torque causing the wrists to rotate

the goal of the swing is to create bat speed to increase the effect of the collision of the bat and ball

it's simple.

I didn't change any words, I'm just trying to figure out wth you're talking about, but I'm beginning to think that's useless.

Quincy does not know how the human body works. He is trying his best to tell us that we are wrong. When in reality he needs to tell us he himself does not know what we are talking about. NOT ONCE did he state "I don't know what you are are talking about". All his posts are trying to prove us wrong. All his post just prove that he does now know what he is talking about since he can't seem to keep his story straight. I understand what Quincy is trying to say. The problem is when he does not understand his own words.

PTA,

I confused your post with XV. I am coming to see you as open to discussion while XV chants from his doctrine as closed minded as any religionist.

I may be mistaken but I think you are the fellow whose son hit six or so home runs with your methods.

You have come to see the value in wrists uncocking in front of the batter instead of hands forward.

Understanding leverage and the mechanical advantage gained through circular motion, you would see how pulling down on the handle creates the rearward circular motion at the start of the swing.

Moving the wrists in opposite directions while trying to swing would be wasted movement.

Let XV 'torque' that imaginary hole in the center of the bat. It serves you better to develop propulsion of the bat head into the swing.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
PTA,

I confused your post with XV. I am coming to see you as open to discussion while XV chants from his doctrine as closed minded as any religionist.

I may be mistaken but I think you are the fellow whose son hit six or so home runs with your methods.

You have come to see the value in wrists uncocking in front of the batter instead of hands forward.

Understanding leverage and the mechanical advantage gained through circular motion, you would see how pulling down on the handle creates the rearward circular motion at the start of the swing.

Moving the wrists in opposite directions while trying to swing would be wasted movement.

Let XV 'torque' that imaginary hole in the center of the bat. It serves you better to develop propulsion of the bat head into the swing.

You can't answer my questions about the wrists. Obviously, you would avoid it.

How does pulling down result in the bat moving in a circular motion? I thought the shoulders moved the bat in this circular motion? This is what JJA said. Yet I don't see you refuting his posts. I guess you missed that one.

How does one get the hands palm up/palm down at contact? How do you teach a hitter to create the correct barrel path? Do you even understand what the correct barrel path is? Telling someone to "pull down" does not define the barrel path. It does NOT define the EXACT movement of the hands/wrists/forearms. How do you adjust when you always pull down on every swing?

As a rule, I tend to avoid questions that are asked repeatedly in various guises. I'll humor you once more.

The wrists should be relaxed in the swing so they can act as one pivot.

Pulling down on the handle creating leverage also creates circular motion.

A palm up/palm down swing restricts free movement of the wrists. The side side swing offers greater range of motion, thus greater bat speed.

How can TWO wrists act as ONE pivot point?

Put your palms together and move your wrists

XV

My friend sucks at golf; I can beat him blindfolded and give him mulligans all day....at the end of 18, I will own him. He swings a golf club like a bat...hand action is very different. No, there is no chance he thought of the golf swing when talking about baseball...he's an engineer and a very focused one at that.

Torque is still a bad choice of words, sorry.

Some questions for you to ponder:

Do you think that the hands are the sole cause of forearm rotation in pronation/supination? What point/points of the swing does/do supination and pronation take place?

Does slotting the elbow effect early bat speed? Why or why not?

Explain how the hips respond to the hands? Or is it vice versa?

Do you think the hands control bat path and bat plane? If so, how? If not, what does control path and plane?

What role do the hips and torso play in "early bat speed"? How? Do they play a role at all? Why?

What role does the bottom hand play in early bat speed? If yes, how? If no, why not?

Is there a difference in the hip rotation in a high/knee lift stride/no stride/normal stride? Is there a difference? If so, why? If not, why not?

**Glad you wear a lab coat because yes/no answers only get 25% credit. #2 pencils only.Show all your work. Answers based on genetics will be marked off accordingly. Extra credit given for answers in concise plain English (example: torque is not in itself an explanation. You must explain how it occurs to get credit).You may begin. Good luck.



Ohh, by the way...the abilty to adjust to 95mph fastballs, 75 mph curves and 60 mph knucklers has alot more to do with pitch recognition than batspeed. Guess what...nobody ( except Jesus Christ) hits a good 75 mph curve after a 95 mph fastball unless he is guessing curve all the way. The only thing you hands will adjust is your cup.
You can hit a bad curve ( i.e. flat; a mistake) but not a good one. And if you're guessing curve outside and get the 90 mph ( don't even need 95) you get smoked, even Bonds.

XV, everybody wants to talk about the mechanics of hitting. That's cool but as long as hitting is an art instead of a science, they'll be sitting on the dock watching the boat sail away. The real hitters will be waving to them from the boat.

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams:
XV

My friend sucks at golf; I can beat him blindfolded and give him mulligans all day....at the end of 18, I will own him. He swings a golf club like a bat...hand action is very different. No, there is no chance he thought of the golf swing when talking about baseball...he's an engineer and a very focused one at that.

Torque is still a bad choice of words, sorry.

Some questions for you to ponder:

Do you think that the hands are the sole cause of forearm rotation in pronation/supination? What point/points of the swing does/do supination and pronation take place?

Does slotting the elbow effect early bat speed? Why or why not?

Explain how the hips respond to the hands? Or is it vice versa?

Do you think the hands control bat path and bat plane? If so, how? If not, what does control path and plane?

What role do the hips and torso play in "early bat speed"? How? Do they play a role at all? Why?

What role does the bottom hand play in early bat speed? If yes, how? If no, why not?

Is there a difference in the hip rotation in a high/knee lift stride/no stride/normal stride? Is there a difference? If so, why? If not, why not?

**Glad you wear a lab coat because yes/no answers only get 25% credit. #2 pencils only.Show all your work. Answers based on genetics will be marked off accordingly. Extra credit given for answers in concise plain English (example: torque is not in itself an explanation. You must explain how it occurs to get credit).You may begin. Good luck.



Ohh, by the way...the abilty to adjust to 95mph fastballs, 75 mph curves and 60 mph knucklers has alot more to do with pitch recognition than batspeed. Guess what...nobody ( except Jesus Christ) hits a good 75 mph curve after a 95 mph fastball unless he is guessing curve all the way. The only thing you hands will adjust is your cup.
You can hit a bad curve ( i.e. flat; a mistake) but not a good one. And if you're guessing curve outside and get the 90 mph ( don't even need 95) you get smoked, even Bonds.

XV, everybody wants to talk about the mechanics of hitting. That's cool but as long as hitting is an art instead of a science, they'll be sitting on the dock watching the boat sail away. The real hitters will be waving to them from the boat.

I can take a couple of these (even though I don't wear a lab coat).

First, yes, you can slot the elbow and move the bat very little, even none at all unless you move your hands too. Kind of like a Chicken flapping his wings, but he'll never fly. You can also slot the elbow by using the bat like a Violin bow with your shoulder being the Violin.

Second, the bottom hand works in opposite direction of top hand which helps with early batspeed.

Third, the leg kick is used for timing only for some hitters. It has nothing to do with hip movement. The turning of the knees is what opens the hips, IMO.

Babe Ruth said that swinging a bat is the same as swinging a golf club, but the swing has the stride.

Babe's swing was a side side hand grip through contact.

Babe played for 22 seasons.

One as a draw card of only 25 games at 40 years old.

His first five seasons as a pitcher.

Thus in his 16 years as a full time player in the outfield he hit 688 home runs and a lifetime batting average of .342.

I would hope that you would pardon me for having used this swing style personally and for endorsing this swing style over the other newer versions that have come into popularity.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Babe Ruth said that swinging a bat is the same as swinging a golf club, but the swing has the stride.

Babe's swing was a side side hand grip through contact.

Babe played for 22 seasons.

One as a draw card of only 25 games at 40 years old.

His first five seasons as a pitcher.

Thus in his 16 years as a full time player in the outfield he hit 688 home runs and a lifetime batting average of .342.

I would hope that you would pardon me for having used this swing style personally and for endorsing this swing style over the other newer versions that have come into popularity.

Your record is skipping.

powertoallfields

Careful...don't rush. It's a minefield. Don't be cannon fodder for the others.

1 may be heading the wrong direction; 2 ain't bad but need to expand on the answer; 3 is a little tricky (hint: look at Sheffield/softball hitter side by side clip on the high knee; compare to conventional stride).

Frankly, to properly answer those questions it will take some time. Given XV's penchant for long postings, I'd thought he'd been all over this by now.

You do get mucho extra credit for stepping up to the plate first. Virtually assured a passing grade just on machismo.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Put your palms together and move your wrists

This is not how we hold a bat. If that is how you hold the bat, I see why you don't understand this whole conversation.

The only way for TWO wrists to be ONE pivot point is if I cut off my hands and touch my wrists. If I put my palms together, I still don't have a single pivot point. Each wrist is it's own pivot point, since a joint is basically a pivot point.

Thanks for avoiding my previous questions, you saved yourself more embarrassment in trying to explain something you don't understand. You again showed that you don't understand by making this post.

Two wrists, one bat equal one pivot point.

You must have very strange wrists.

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams:
XV

My friend sucks at golf; I can beat him blindfolded and give him mulligans all day....at the end of 18, I will own him. He swings a golf club like a bat...hand action is very different. No, there is no chance he thought of the golf swing when talking about baseball...he's an engineer and a very focused one at that.

Torque is still a bad choice of words, sorry.

The hands are producing force to rotate the bat about a pivot point (axis). That is torque to me.

quote:

Some questions for you to ponder:

Do you think that the hands are the sole cause of forearm rotation in pronation/supination? What point/points of the swing does/do supination and pronation take place?

That's not a correct way to word it. The hands are connected to the forearms. The hands rotate with the forearms. BUT, mentally focusing on the hands and using cues to describe what the hands do usually works better compared to the forearms. You are free to use cues for the forearms or wrists if you wish.

You can use the words hands, forearms, or wrists interchangeably. When I say "pronation of the hand", "pronation of the wrist", or "pronation of the forearm", they all describe the same action. "Forearm rotation" can be one of either pronation or supination. When I say "forearm rotation" in the context of the swing, I mean "pronation of the bottom hand and supination of the top hand" collectively just so that I don't have to write it all out.

Those who start with a position where the bat is more vertical, or one where the bat is pointing toward the pitcher/middle infielders, are definitely rotating their forearms earlier and through a longer range of motion in order to get the bat "on plane". Those whose bats are more diagonal (from the front view) are using their forearms through a shorter range of motion.

The difference between the high level swings and low level ones, is that the high level ones "start" this forearm rotation before committing to the pitch. This is "early bat speed". They start it with their muscles. Just because you see no "movement of the bones" does not mean there is no "action". This gives the bat early momentum. No "dead hands" swing.

Quincy does not understand muscle contractions, therefore, he believes if a joint is not changing angles, there is no muscle contraction. He believes that when a muscle contracts it always shortens, in other words, the joint angle always change. In other words, "there is movement". I can stand upright on two feet, and contract my quads and nothing happens. I can stand on two feet and contract my hamstrings and nothing happens. No joint angles in my knees, hips, or ankles change. Until Quincy understands muscle contractions, he won't know what I have been posting about for the past few days.

S.Abrams, what is your understanding of muscle contractions?

quote:

Does slotting the elbow effect early bat speed? Why or why not?

Yes. Having the elbow tucked to the ribs puts you in a stronger position to swing. The elbow responds to the hands. You don't want the hands to be a "slave" to the elbows. The starting position of the elbow is personal preference. Some hitters start high (David Wright) and some low (Jeff Kent). It's just a checkpoint, not something to teach. Something to look for on video, not something to give a mental cue for. If the hands/forearms are working properly, the elbow will respond properly. Actually, I look a both elbows as check points.

quote:

Explain how the hips respond to the hands? Or is it vice versa?

The more resistance you feel in your hands, the greater the stretch you can create in separation, the more powerful the "releasing" of this stretch occurs. More resistance in your hands helps keep the upper body closed while the front hip is opening.

The front leg/knee/hip should be opening into footplant while the hands are getting the bat on plane.

quote:

Do you think the hands control bat path and bat plane? If so, how? If not, what does control path and plane?

Yes. What else are the hands suppose to do? What else is suppose to control the bat? The shoulders respond to the hands, not the other way around. The hands get the bat on plane by way of pronation and supination of the forearms. The amount and intensity will very upon pitch location and speed, of course.

Here is an example of the all-time home run king in Japan, taking two pitches while his hands are continually getting the bat on plane. As you can see he gets the bat on plane, even though he does not commit to the pitches. The second one, the ball is farther from the catcher's mitt yes, but look at where the catcher's mitt is. It is on plane with his bat.

quote:

What role do the hips and torso play in "early bat speed"? How? Do they play a role at all? Why?

The hips aid in separation. A "stronger" separation means more load at the hands, therefore, more resistance for the hands to respond to. The hips are part of the overall swing. This thread is regarding the hands and the handle, so I haven't mentioned much about the hips.

The front hip should be "clearing" while the bat is getting on plane. Early bat speed can be used to describe this "getting on plane" because the bat will blur.

quote:

What role does the bottom hand play in early bat speed? If yes, how? If no, why not?

The bottom hand works opposite of the top hand. If they are both working in the same direction, your swing plane will be wrong in addition to no early bat speed.

quote:

Is there a difference in the hip rotation in a high/knee lift stride/no stride/normal stride? Is there a difference? If so, why? If not, why not?

The stride is a style issue, not technique. The key is to not have all the weight on the front leg until the swing is committed as well have the hips slightly opened at footplant. We can discuss the hips more in another thread.

quote:

Ohh, by the way...the abilty to adjust to 95mph fastballs, 75 mph curves and 60 mph knucklers has alot more to do with pitch recognition than batspeed. Guess what...nobody ( except Jesus Christ) hits a good 75 mph curve after a 95 mph fastball unless he is guessing curve all the way. The only thing you hands will adjust is your cup.
You can hit a bad curve ( i.e. flat; a mistake) but not a good one. And if you're guessing curve outside and get the 90 mph ( don't even need 95) you get smoked, even Bonds.

You can stand in the box all day and without looking into the catcher's mitt be able to call every single pitch type, speed, and location, it tells me nothing about what you can do with the bat.

Pitch recognition is part of succeeding as a hitter I agree. But this discussion is about mechanics. You can see the ball, but if you don't know how to get the bat there, it means nothing. Although, I believe visual abilities can be genetically limited.

The only MLB player that could (probably) hit any pitch (out of the park) on any count is Vlad Guerrero. Bonds is too disciplined.

quote:

XV, everybody wants to talk about the mechanics of hitting. That's cool but as long as hitting is an art instead of a science, they'll be sitting on the dock watching the boat sail away. The real hitters will be waving to them from the boat.

"Hitting is an art" is what the casual fan uses as an excuse to cover up for their lack of understanding of what is happening. The real hitters don't need to be taught, they need to be reminded. The ones sitting on the dock can't be reminded if they never knew in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Two wrists, one bat equal one pivot point.

You must have very strange wrists.

IF the bat is the pivot point, then we'd be twisting the bat.

If we twist the bat, that's called "flexion" and "extension" of the wrists. That's not supination or pronation.

It's actually another way to produce torque.

You still don't understand what you've written.

The idea of two wrists acting as one pivot point must be more than your mind can process.

The very inference that the bat could be a pivot point rather than the wrists may be the most uninteligent idea that you have endorsed thus far.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
The idea of two wrists acting as one pivot point must be more than your mind can process.

The very inference that the bat could be a pivot point rather than the wrists may be the most uninteligent idea that you have endorsed thus far.

First you said the wrists are pivot points, then you say "one bat equal one pivot point". Where is the SINGLE pivot point?

quote:

Originally posted by XV:

The difference between the high level swings and low level ones, is that the high level ones "start" this forearm rotation before committing to the pitch. This is "early bat speed". They start it with their muscles. Just because you see no "movement of the bones" does not mean there is no "action". This gives the bat early momentum. No "dead hands" swing.



Here is an example of the all-time home run king in Japan, taking two pitches while his hands are continually getting the bat on plane. As you can see he gets the bat on plane, even though he does not commit to the pitches. The second one, the ball is farther from the catcher's mitt yes, but look at where the catcher's mitt is. It is on plane with his bat.

Wow, look at that early bat speed happening there.

What else was it you said? Oh yeah your quote was:

"MLB hitters have to use their hands before they
need to."

Is that kinda like Richard's start before you start cue?

Quincy,

Don't get too cozy with PTAF. I'm pretty sure that both he and XV are Dick Schenck. If not, they are at least related and double teaming the board. Maybe bluedog was on vacation or something cause he's usually richard's accomplice.

richard, how many times have you been banned? Why do you have this pathological need to keep slinking back like some kind of jackal?

quote:

Originally posted by ShawnLee:
Quincy,

Don't get too cozy with PTAF. I'm pretty sure that both he and XV are Dick Schenck. If not, they are at least related and double teaming the board. Maybe bluedog was on vacation or something cause he's usually richard's accomplice.

richard, how many times have you been banned? Why do you have this pathological need to keep slinking back like some kind of jackal?

quote:

Originally posted by ShawnLee:
Quincy,

Don't get too cozy with PTAF. I'm pretty sure that both he and XV are Dick Schenck. If not, they are at least related and double teaming the board. Maybe bluedog was on vacation or something cause he's usually richard's accomplice.

richard, how many times have you been banned? Why do you have this pathological need to keep slinking back like some kind of jackal?

Its not Richard...

quote:

Maybe bluedog was on vacation or something cause he's usually richard's accomplice.

ShawnLee, you are merely babbling.....You know nothing about what you're saying...Nothing!