This article answers the question and gives you the math.
http://webusers.npl.uiuc.edu/~a-nathan/pob/AJP-Nov03.pdf
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
This article answers the question and gives you the math.
http://webusers.npl.uiuc.edu/~a-nathan/pob/AJP-Nov03.pdf
There is nothing in this paper about grip pressure or weight and length of the bat. It does take batspeed into account, but not different weights at the same batspeeds.
Those are non-issues because they all vary based on the size, weight and strength of the batter.
Establishing the proper grip pressure is established through trial and error or practice.
Determining the proper bat to produce the most effective bat speed also is a trial and error process. Today there are sports labs where bat speed can be measured as well as force produced at contact.
The bat that produces the greatest bat speed with the greatest corresponding force at contact is the proper bat.
Establishing the proper grip pressure is established through trial and error or practice.
Determining the proper bat to produce the most effective bat speed also is a trial and error process. Today there are sports labs where bat speed can be measured as well as force produced at contact.
The bat that produces the greatest bat speed with the greatest corresponding force at contact is the proper bat.
quote:You could take a one-handed swing and make the bat "blur" as well. With one hand you can't apply torque to the bat (except through differential pressure in the hand which is almost zero).
JJA.
I have been giving this quote some thought along with the video supplied by Quincy. What I figured out through trial and error by swinging the bat, was that it is possible to torque the handle with one hand. The point being torqued is in the center of the hand holding the bat. The only way to do this though, is to **** the bathead forward first and rotate the forearm (which is the action I have been trying to explain as handle torque) pronation of one and supination of the other. There won't be as much torque applied obviously, but there is torque applied.
This is my arguement for bat tipping in the first place. If you teach bat tipping, it is my opinion that the hitter will naturally torque the handle to get back to contact position in time (if the tipping is done in front of the head as opposed to behind the head).
pta,
you would do better to use a different term rather than 'torque'.
I'm sure there is something that you are feeling, but 'torque' is not serving your purpose in clarifying the point that you are trying to convey.
you would do better to use a different term rather than 'torque'.
I'm sure there is something that you are feeling, but 'torque' is not serving your purpose in clarifying the point that you are trying to convey.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
pta,
you would do better to use a different term rather than 'torque'.
I'm sure there is something that you are feeling, but 'torque' is not serving your purpose in clarifying the point that you are trying to convey.
As I've said before, I'm an open minded person. What would you call the force being applied to the point between the hands by them moving in opposite directions? The knob is going one way and the head is going the other, but it isn't happening on it's own. It is being manipulated by the hands to initiate this action.
That is propelling the bat head.
Ideally, the knob would move as little as possible in relation to the bat head. This would be the lever action sought.
The same principle applies when using a hammer.
Ideally, the knob would move as little as possible in relation to the bat head. This would be the lever action sought.
The same principle applies when using a hammer.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
That is propelling the bat head.
Ideally, the knob would move as little as possible in relation to the bat head. This would be the lever action sought.
The same principle applies when using a hammer.
But, the bathead can be propelled in numerous ways. How do you specify that to get a running start, you have to manipulate the bat by using your hands? I agree that just before contact you would want the knob to have very little if any movement. Yes, it is like using a hammer. To effectively use a hammer, you need to manipulate the handle with your hand and forearm to help propel the head.
The running start has to do with the combination of hip turn, stride and weight shift to gain propulsion. The more weight pulling down on the bat head, the greater the speed.
Consider now the relaxed wrists. In pulling down the bat, the bat head would travel in an arc chasing the handle. This would be the rearward movement or first blur.
In the arm extension, we allow the greatest speed to be gotten on the downward travel of the hands. Note not forward travel of the hands as many people recommend, but the full extension should take place just before the bat and hands are directly in front of the hitter.
When the hands are directly in front of the hitter, the increase in angular accelleration and centripetal force on the bat head will cause the wrists to uncock. (second blur)
Ideal contact would be right after wrist uncock, just in front of the plate.
Then allow the follow through.
Full extension is not fully straightening the arms, but extending them as much as possible while still maintaining control of the handle.
Consider now the relaxed wrists. In pulling down the bat, the bat head would travel in an arc chasing the handle. This would be the rearward movement or first blur.
In the arm extension, we allow the greatest speed to be gotten on the downward travel of the hands. Note not forward travel of the hands as many people recommend, but the full extension should take place just before the bat and hands are directly in front of the hitter.
When the hands are directly in front of the hitter, the increase in angular accelleration and centripetal force on the bat head will cause the wrists to uncock. (second blur)
Ideal contact would be right after wrist uncock, just in front of the plate.
Then allow the follow through.
Full extension is not fully straightening the arms, but extending them as much as possible while still maintaining control of the handle.
http://chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Profes...lysis_DavidOrtiz.pdf
Please observe this frame by frame. His left arm is bent in a 45 degree angle at contact, which is the optimum position. His wrists are nowhere near uncocked. I admit that this ball may have ran in on him, but he still hit the ball out of the park. He used his hands and hips to create batspeed and because he torqued the handle at go he was still able to adjust to this pitch. This would have been a wiff if he had not used his hands and forearms to adjust to this pitch.
Please observe this frame by frame. His left arm is bent in a 45 degree angle at contact, which is the optimum position. His wrists are nowhere near uncocked. I admit that this ball may have ran in on him, but he still hit the ball out of the park. He used his hands and hips to create batspeed and because he torqued the handle at go he was still able to adjust to this pitch. This would have been a wiff if he had not used his hands and forearms to adjust to this pitch.
You are mistaken.
In frame 35, when he starts his arms down to the ball the handle follows causing the bathead to arc backwards (first blur). Notice his hands continue to contact.
On the inside pitch, the forearms would keep the bat inside. I have said this. This is the need for strong forearms and hands.
The wrists uncock in frame 42. Notice the second blur or the appearance of the bat disappearing in frame 44.
This is not torque. It is leverage.
In frame 35, when he starts his arms down to the ball the handle follows causing the bathead to arc backwards (first blur). Notice his hands continue to contact.
On the inside pitch, the forearms would keep the bat inside. I have said this. This is the need for strong forearms and hands.
The wrists uncock in frame 42. Notice the second blur or the appearance of the bat disappearing in frame 44.
This is not torque. It is leverage.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
You are mistaken.
In frame 35, when he starts his arms down to the ball the handle follows causing the bathead to arc backwards (first blur). Notice his hands continue to contact.
On the inside pitch, the forearms would keep the bat inside. I have said this. This is the need for strong forearms and hands.
The wrists uncock in frame 42. Notice the second blur or the appearance of the bat disappearing in frame 44.
This is not torque. It is leverage.
What are you talking about??? His front arm never moves! His back elbow is starting to tuck as he starts to torque the handle. The wrists are not uncocked until the top hand passes the bottom hand. They are maintaining the angle!
Powertoallfields,
With one hand, you can't have torque caused by the hands. As described by Mankin, this so-called handle torque is caused by one hand pushing in a direction perpindicular by the bat, the other hand pulling in a direction opposite to what the other hand is doing. That's handle torque as defined by Mankin and thus isn't torque without two hands on the bat.
The reason the bat head moves one direction while the handle the other is due to rotation of the torso. As the body rotates, the figure skater tends to do exactly what you described, the bat head flies out while the handle goes the other direction. This isn't due to the hands manipulating the bat. You can't have this effect without rotation of some kind. But you could, for example, just rotate your arm to whip the bat much like when trying to crack a towel or a whip and the bat head would also try to fly out. But that effect is absolutely, 100% not caused by active manipulation by the hands. That's why one hand can cause this effect despite the fact there isn't active torque acting on the bat by the hands.
Hope this helps. This is tricky stuff, which is why most people don't get the details right.
-JJA
With one hand, you can't have torque caused by the hands. As described by Mankin, this so-called handle torque is caused by one hand pushing in a direction perpindicular by the bat, the other hand pulling in a direction opposite to what the other hand is doing. That's handle torque as defined by Mankin and thus isn't torque without two hands on the bat.
The reason the bat head moves one direction while the handle the other is due to rotation of the torso. As the body rotates, the figure skater tends to do exactly what you described, the bat head flies out while the handle goes the other direction. This isn't due to the hands manipulating the bat. You can't have this effect without rotation of some kind. But you could, for example, just rotate your arm to whip the bat much like when trying to crack a towel or a whip and the bat head would also try to fly out. But that effect is absolutely, 100% not caused by active manipulation by the hands. That's why one hand can cause this effect despite the fact there isn't active torque acting on the bat by the hands.
Hope this helps. This is tricky stuff, which is why most people don't get the details right.
-JJA
If what you claim is true, then why is his first move with his arms moving downward instead of the 'hand torque' that you believe exists?
From frame 33 both arms are in motion.
If you think that wrists uncock when the top hand passes the bottom hand, you are in need of some very basic lessons in leverage.
In plain english, you just don't get it.
You have some preconcieved notion that you are trying to give credence to, but are failing miserably.
From frame 33 both arms are in motion.
If you think that wrists uncock when the top hand passes the bottom hand, you are in need of some very basic lessons in leverage.
In plain english, you just don't get it.
You have some preconcieved notion that you are trying to give credence to, but are failing miserably.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
You are mistaken.
In frame 35, when he starts his arms down to the ball the handle follows causing the bathead to arc backwards (first blur). Notice his hands continue to contact.
On the inside pitch, the forearms would keep the bat inside. I have said this. This is the need for strong forearms and hands.
The wrists uncock in frame 42. Notice the second blur or the appearance of the bat disappearing in frame 44.
This is not torque. It is leverage.
Leverage and torque are the same thing. Here is the definition of lever:
quote:
1. Mechanics. a rigid bar that pivots about one point and that is used to move an object at a second point by a force applied at a third.
The Rigid bar is the handle, not the whole bat.
The pivot point can be either hand, depending on pitch location, or between the hands on a "perfect swing".
The object at a second point would be the bat head. The bat head is what we are trying to move.
The force applied at a third [point] would be either hand, depending on pitch location. In the case of a "perfect swing" on a fastball in the middle of the plate, both hands would be doing equal work pivoting the bat handle between the hands.
As I said different pitch locations will move the pivot point. On an outside pitch, the pivot point would move closer to the bottom hand with the top hand doing more work (applying force). On an inside pitch, the pivot point would move closer to the top hand because the bottom hand must be pull in towards your body. You are not pulling "on the knob". Pulling on the knob is accomplished with the triceps. Pulling in toward the body is accomplished by the biceps and forearm pronation.
I don't know who taught you English, but this is "torque" to me.
Here is the definition of torque.
quote:
1. Mechanics. something that produces or tends to produce torsion or rotation; the moment of a force or system of forces tending to cause rotation.
quote:Originally posted by jja:
Powertoallfields,
With one hand, you can't have torque caused by the hands. As described by Mankin, this so-called handle torque is caused by one hand pushing in a direction perpindicular by the bat, the other hand pulling in a direction opposite to what the other hand is doing. That's handle torque as defined by Mankin and thus isn't torque without two hands on the bat.
The reason the bat head moves one direction while the handle the other is due to rotation of the torso. As the body rotates, the figure skater tends to do exactly what you described, the bat head flies out while the handle goes the other direction. This isn't due to the hands manipulating the bat. You can't have this effect without rotation of some kind. But you could, for example, just rotate your arm to whip the bat much like when trying to crack a towel or a whip and the bat head would also try to fly out. But that effect is absolutely, 100% not caused by active manipulation by the hands. That's why one hand can cause this effect despite the fact there isn't active torque acting on the bat by the hands.
Hope this helps. This is tricky stuff, which is why most people don't get the details right.
-JJA
I can torque/turn/twist, whatever word you want to use, the bat with my top hand. It's called supination. I can torque the bat with my bottom hand. It's called pronation. It's what that guy is doing in the one-handed drills video. But those balls are going nowhere, because he's not using BOTH hands to work in OPPOSITE directions.
make a good lumberjack I suppose
somebody make a graph
somebody make a graph
Thank you for proving that torque and leverage are not one and the same.
Tension is not torque.
You spend too much time doing things one handed it seems.
You should learn what terms mean before using them.
Tension is not torque.
You spend too much time doing things one handed it seems.
You should learn what terms mean before using them.
quote:Originally posted by XV:quote:Originally posted by jja:
Powertoallfields,
With one hand, you can't have torque caused by the hands. As described by Mankin, this so-called handle torque is caused by one hand pushing in a direction perpindicular by the bat, the other hand pulling in a direction opposite to what the other hand is doing. That's handle torque as defined by Mankin and thus isn't torque without two hands on the bat.
The reason the bat head moves one direction while the handle the other is due to rotation of the torso. As the body rotates, the figure skater tends to do exactly what you described, the bat head flies out while the handle goes the other direction. This isn't due to the hands manipulating the bat. You can't have this effect without rotation of some kind. But you could, for example, just rotate your arm to whip the bat much like when trying to crack a towel or a whip and the bat head would also try to fly out. But that effect is absolutely, 100% not caused by active manipulation by the hands. That's why one hand can cause this effect despite the fact there isn't active torque acting on the bat by the hands.
Hope this helps. This is tricky stuff, which is why most people don't get the details right.
-JJA
I can torque/turn/twist, whatever word you want to use, the bat with my top hand. It's called supination. I can torque the bat with my bottom hand. It's called pronation. It's what that guy is doing in the one-handed drills video. But those balls are going nowhere, because he's not using BOTH hands to work in OPPOSITE directions.
Thank you for clarifying my position. I was going to reply, but I'm pretty sure you covered it all, lol.
Quincy, you lack reading comprehension if you think leverage and torque are different. I don't THINK they are the same. I KNOW they are the same. The definitions I quoted says they are the same. You think they are different because you refuse to be wrong. Your ego is too big. It does not allow you to say "oh you're right, I take that back".
You need to spend more time reading a dictionary it seems.
You need to spend more time reading a dictionary it seems.
quote:The reason the bat head moves one direction while the handle the other is due to rotation of the torso.
Okay, I lied. I am going to respond to this one. If the torso is causing this blur, can you then lay the bat backwards toward the Catcher in these two drills and cause this same blur?
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
If what you claim is true, then why is his first move with his arms moving downward instead of the 'hand torque' that you believe exists?
From frame 33 both arms are in motion.
If you think that wrists uncock when the top hand passes the bottom hand, you are in need of some very basic lessons in leverage.
In plain english, you just don't get it.
You have some preconcieved notion that you are trying to give credence to, but are failing miserably.
Quincy,
His right arm stays across his letters throughout the swing. He tucks his elbow and tilts his shoulders to get down to the ball while manipulating the bat with his hands.
Quincy, it's a good thing you don't teach karate. You would have your students breaking their hands left and right, lol!
The more you type, the more you prove that you don't know what you are talking about.
It seems your posts have become keyboard flatulence.
lev·er·age (lvr-j, lvr-)
n.
1.
a. The action of a lever.
b. The mechanical advantage of a lever
torque 1 (tôrk)
n.
1. The moment of a force; the measure of a force's tendency to produce torsion and rotation about an axis, equal to the vector product of the radius vector from the axis of rotation to the point of application of the force and the force vector.
It seems your posts have become keyboard flatulence.
lev·er·age (lvr-j, lvr-)
n.
1.
a. The action of a lever.
b. The mechanical advantage of a lever
torque 1 (tôrk)
n.
1. The moment of a force; the measure of a force's tendency to produce torsion and rotation about an axis, equal to the vector product of the radius vector from the axis of rotation to the point of application of the force and the force vector.
JJA,
One other thing, if the torso is causing this blur (which is the batspeed) why would you need to do one handed drills???
One other thing, if the torso is causing this blur (which is the batspeed) why would you need to do one handed drills???
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
The more you type, the more you prove that you don't know what you are talking about.
It seems your posts have become keyboard flatulence.
lev·er·age (lvr-j, lvr-)
n.
1.
a. The action of a lever.
b. The mechanical advantage of a lever
torque 1 (tôrk)
n.
1. The moment of a force; the measure of a force's tendency to produce torsion and rotation about an axis, equal to the vector product of the radius vector from the axis of rotation to the point of application of the force and the force vector.
XV,
Is he for real with this??? Is this not what you just said??? Geez!
quote:If the torso is causing this blur
Your ego is too big
By causing the wrists to uncock, yes
the weight of the bathead uncocks the wrists
torque the handle with one hand
pronation of one and supination of the other
manipulate the handle with your hand and forearm to help propel the head
bat head would travel in an arc chasing the handle
greatest speed to be gotten on the downward travel of the hands. Note not forward travel of the hands as many people recommend....
increase in angular accelleration and centripetal force
In frame 35,
*******************************************************************
I hope you guys work for Myth Busters and don't teach hitting......right click to MSWORD, and read this in 10 years.............you'll get the same chuckle
You really don't get it.
I'm shocked at the lack of understanding of the simplest terms. If you think that leverage and torque are the same thing after looking at the definitions, then you are blinded by your false belief.
I sincerely hope that no one is paying you for this pseudo-science that you preach.
I'm shocked at the lack of understanding of the simplest terms. If you think that leverage and torque are the same thing after looking at the definitions, then you are blinded by your false belief.
I sincerely hope that no one is paying you for this pseudo-science that you preach.
That wasn't meant for you. That was for the 'Leverage and Torque are the same thing' crew.
Archimedes would be laughing hysterically.
Archimedes would be laughing hysterically.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
You really don't get it.
I'm shocked at the lack of understanding of the simplest terms. If you think that leverage and torque are the same thing after looking at the definitions, then you are blinded by your false belief.
I sincerely hope that no one is paying you for this pseudo-science that you preach.
You refuse to use your brain to "see" what we are talking about. You're only using your eyes.
Torque = Lever arm x force
Is that in plain enough english for you? Or maybe you don't understand math/physics either?
Read these:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/torq.html#torq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque
I will have to assume you are blind if you still think they are different. I guess the Wiki is wrong again, huh? You have better not use leverage anymore then, because the word leverage connotes torque and vice versa.
You don't know what torque is and what a lever is. When you understand them both, you can "put them together" to get the bigger picture. You cannot have one without the other.
Either you know that powertoallfields and I know what we are talking about and you refuse to see it, or you just really don't understand. If it is the latter, just say "I don't understand, please explain more." No, you're stuck in the mode of "who are these guys, I know what I'm talking about, screw them, let me find stuff that says they are wrong even though I don't know what the heck I'm posting."
You're less inteligent than I had imagined.
Lever + force exerting rotational pressure on an axis.
I'll break it down to its simplest form.
If leverage and torque are the same, where is the torque in a simple lever?
Lever + force exerting rotational pressure on an axis.
I'll break it down to its simplest form.
If leverage and torque are the same, where is the torque in a simple lever?
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
You're less inteligent than I had imagined.
Lever + force exerting rotational pressure on an axis.
I'll break it down to its simplest form.
If leverage and torque are the same, where is the torque in a simple lever?
The torque is at the pivot point.
You're losing status.
You are going from less inteligent to not inteligent at all.
A simple lever does not create torque.
By your own examples of external force on an axis, you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have no clue.
You are going from less inteligent to not inteligent at all.
A simple lever does not create torque.
By your own examples of external force on an axis, you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have no clue.
I never said a simple lever creates torque. Who would think that? A simple lever by itself is just a lever. DUH!?
quote:The torque is at the pivot point.
Guys,
Although this is physics, it isn't rocket science. In the one handed bat experiment, just hold onto the bat and rotate. Watch the bat head. Then repeat the experiment but rotate twice as fast. What happens to the bat head? The barrel goes forward and the handle goes backward twice as fast as in the first experiment. Since you're not actively torquing the bat, how come the bat head is moving? It's the centifigual force acting on the bat head to drive it forward derived from the rotation of the body, much like the force you feel in a car as you drive around a curve. It isn't active torque on the handle of the bat applied by the hands.
Although this is physics, it isn't rocket science. In the one handed bat experiment, just hold onto the bat and rotate. Watch the bat head. Then repeat the experiment but rotate twice as fast. What happens to the bat head? The barrel goes forward and the handle goes backward twice as fast as in the first experiment. Since you're not actively torquing the bat, how come the bat head is moving? It's the centifigual force acting on the bat head to drive it forward derived from the rotation of the body, much like the force you feel in a car as you drive around a curve. It isn't active torque on the handle of the bat applied by the hands.
quote:Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:
I hear there is a great sale on lab coats on ebay.....just make sure you ain't late for science club, and don't get any diamond dust on them.
You guys never played baseball
You should have stayed in school, maybe you could apply what you learned in physics class, eh? Isn't this site HIGH SCHOOL Baseball Web? We don't want our kids to better their minds, huh? That must be it.
I hear the short yellow school bus stopping outside your house.
Make that centripetal force since you are maintaining string tension.
I've played a bit. Had the money been better, I may have even had a baseball card.
I've played a bit. Had the money been better, I may have even had a baseball card.
JJA and Quincy,
As least one of those buffoons is Richard, probably both. You know there's no point in arguing with stupid people. They just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. That's how Richard always seems to think he's winning the argument. He's not smart enough to tell the difference.
As least one of those buffoons is Richard, probably both. You know there's no point in arguing with stupid people. They just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. That's how Richard always seems to think he's winning the argument. He's not smart enough to tell the difference.
Thanks Shawn for the advice. Sure, I've tangled with Richard for a while now, and it definitely gets old. Still, I periodically drop in so that some people unfamiliar with these arguments can see the other side of the coin. In reality most of these arguments are actually quite easy to refute as hopefully some have noticed.
That's why Mark H's recent advice is good. Boards like this are a good place to learn where to find good information, but not necessarily where to actually do the learning.
That's why Mark H's recent advice is good. Boards like this are a good place to learn where to find good information, but not necessarily where to actually do the learning.
quote:Originally posted by ShawnLee:
JJA and Quincy,
As least one of those buffoons is Richard, probably both. You know there's no point in arguing with stupid people. They just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. That's how Richard always seems to think he's winning the argument. He's not smart enough to tell the difference.
I think I hear the short yellow school bus outside your house too. Have you even bothered to read Quincy's posts? This guy doesn't even know that torque and lever arm go hand in hand. Do you even know yourself? This guy doesn't even know you're suppose to use your quads in the eccentric phase of a squat. Go tell a strength coach that! He will laugh in your face.
Why would you defend someone that you didn't even know posts things he does not even understand?
