A school in our area took 22, yes 22, kids on the varsity team. I think they have 60 across Freshman, JV and Varsity. Has anyone ever seen anything like this before? Going to be a lot of angry parents I think.
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We carried 24 last year. Though in our area Varsity and JV are one team. If you don't get significant playing time during the week and during the first Saturday game, you play in the JV game on Saturday. Wasn't as much complaining as I expected, though its generally accepted that Sr's play over Jr's on our team. There are a few exceptions but its usually only 1 or 2 Jr's getting significant V playing time. If you figure 1/2 the team is Sr's, factor in pitchers, there really are not many Sr's not playing. That probably leads to pacifying the parents,
We had 29 last year, and have 25 this year. Strong but not overwhelming team, with 9 sophs who are all potential starters. Once on Varsity, no JV option, but hope springs eternal, as someone once said. Everyone's excited now (first pre season tournament game is today) but in a few weeks who knows.
I think rosters should be smaller but in this situation I'm just a hopeful dad.
Over the last 14 seasons, I’ve seen as many as 26 and at least 5 other times more than 20 were carried. But there are a lot of reasons for carrying that many players, and every season we play at least a few teams suiting up more than 20 players.
Why do you think parents will be angry?
We have 24 on Varsity. We had 22 on our freshman team last year and I think the same this year. We also have a separate JV team. We have the unwritten rule (maybe all schools have it) that seniors can't be cut if they were on the team junior year. It makes for a large varsity team.
Stats4Gnats posted:Over the last 14 seasons, I’ve seen as many as 26 and at least 5 other times more than 20 were carried. But there are a lot of reasons for carrying that many players, and every season we play at least a few teams suiting up more than 20 players.
Why do you think parents will be angry?
I forgot to note, no seniors at this school yet. Juniors are as high as they go. Last year the team had 17 and there was not a lot of playing time I heard. I can’t imagine 22 now. My sons team has 17 and my older son never played on a varsity team with more than 18
Our High school had 22 as well. Help your son to become good enough to be an every day player they can count on so 22 or 2200 won't matter to him.
"Going to be a lot of angry parents I think. "
Just think how angry they would have been if they were cut. Thank your lucky stars that the coach recognized those players that were committed to the team and the game, even though they weren't going to be starters.
Larger Varsity rosters seem to be the trend & I think it does nothing but cause problems. All 22 kids think they should be on the field regardless of their level of ability - and so do their parents. Last time I checked only 9 play at one time so there is no way to get every player involved no matter how creative Coach is about PH or PR roles. Policy of not cutting seniors just because they were in the program as juniors is about as stupid as the rule about having to swing a 32" bat no matter how big you are (mentioned in another thread). Most team dissention is caused by malcontent seniors who aren't happy about lack of playing time. I have seen this play out for 4 straight years and it destroys team chemistry and leads to an underperforming team. My opinion is that no player should be entitled to be on any roster in any sport if they aren't good enough to contribute to the team. You can trace all of this back to the culture of this generation of kids (which was created by a bunch of misguided parents) that everyone is a winner & we don't keep score & we all get a juice box and a participation trophy. That's how these kids were introduced to sports when they were 6 years old and that's how they think when they are 17. It is a rude awakening for all of them when they eventually find out that the world doesn't work that way.
SultanofSwat posted:"Going to be a lot of angry parents I think. "
Just think how angry they would have been if they were cut. Thank your lucky stars that the coach recognized those players that were committed to the team and the game, even though they weren't going to be starters.
Ah yes, the give them all trophies group. I guess I do it a little different. If you are one of the best players you make the team. If not, you get cut or sent to JV and use it to work harder.
If I coached a HSV team with 22 players, I would publicly harden my heart and do what was necessary, but privately I would be sick at heart about the number of fine young men on the bench.
adbono posted:Larger Varsity rosters seem to be the trend & I think it does nothing but cause problems. All 22 kids think they should be on the field regardless of their level of ability - and so do their parents. Last time I checked only 9 play at one time so there is no way to get every player involved no matter how creative Coach is about PH or PR roles. Policy of not cutting seniors just because they were in the program as juniors is about as stupid as the rule about having to swing a 32" bat no matter how big you are (mentioned in another thread). Most team dissention is caused by malcontent seniors who aren't happy about lack of playing time. I have seen this play out for 4 straight years and it destroys team chemistry and leads to an underperforming team. My opinion is that no player should be entitled to be on any roster in any sport if they aren't good enough to contribute to the team. You can trace all of this back to the culture of this generation of kids (which was created by a bunch of misguided parents) that everyone is a winner & we don't keep score & we all get a juice box and a participation trophy. That's how these kids were introduced to sports when they were 6 years old and that's how they think when they are 17. It is a rude awakening for all of them when they eventually find out that the world doesn't work that way.
Seniors at son's school are not usually cut, unless coach sees that they will be malcontent. One senior got booted this year, apparently for that reason. Don't know the full story, neither does anyone else except the coach and the kid. He had a good chance at a starting spot. Seniors that are kept on the team are told their chances of playing. Or that they won't. Some stay, some move on. This guy has been a varsity coach for 32 years. Friendly guy, but he will never talk about a player/team/strategy to any parents. The lines are very clear. Kids are told they will be held accountable for their parents actions if it is detrimental to the team. And angry parents are detrimental to the team. Best be angry on the inside if it's your nature to be angry about youth sports.
Kinda like some silly western movie I saw as a kid. New town, new sheriff in town run amuck. Jail not completed yet, it has no bars. New sheriff draws lines where the jail cell is. Pours red paint that looks like blood on the floor just outside the lines. Bad guy stays in the area marked for the jail cell. Most parents stay in the cell in this program.
In the fall "Baseball class", each kid is given a piece of paper. It says "Varsity", "JV/Sophomore", "Varsity/Cut", or "Cut", etc. He then will put a few notes "Compete for innings on mound, develop bat" or the like. Then he meets with each kid individually and explains it to them.
At signing day last year, there was a catcher that signed with a pretty good JUCO. In four years he never made the team. Pretty sure that story is some of the blood just outside the jail cell.
He may be my favorite coach of all time.
SultanofSwat posted:"Going to be a lot of angry parents I think. "
Just think how angry they would have been if they were cut. Thank your lucky stars that the coach recognized those players that were committed to the team and the game, even though they weren't going to be starters.
The players I have seen in this situation were neither "committed to the team" or "committed to the game". They thought they were entitled to something. Therein lies the problem.
There are currently 20 players on our HS varsity roster. 12 of them are seniors. Only 4 of the 12 seniors are good players and 3 will advance to play in college. Only 6 are good enough to be on a varsity roster. The other 6 that aren't good enough to be there don't even play travel ball in the summer. We have a number of young underclassmen that show a lot of promise. If I were coaching our HS team I would cut all 6 of the seniors who have proven they cant play on Monday - and I would be fired on Tuesday. That's the climate we live in.
Kind of agree with others....if you're players #17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut? My son's school normally only had 28-30 in the entire program....so on days we played JV and Varsity, the Varsity would only have 15-16....which was ok, as we only had 1 or 2 kids that were PO's. If you are a bigger school with the option of having PO's, I could see keeping 22 kids....8 starting position players and a starting DH.....5 or 6 backups and 6 or 7 PO's. Again, I'm not sure why there is an issue with numbers....unless your coach treats it like rec ball and says "everybody plays" lol.
ADBONO wrote:
“Most team dissention is caused by malcontent seniors who aren't happy about lack of playing time. I have seen this play out for 4 straight years and it destroys team chemistry and leads to an underperforming team.”
Our high school head coach said this^ very thing happened two years ago and he vowed to never do it again. So, last year he had eight seniors out of the 18 varsity players.
As in the case with GO44’s son coach, he explains what every player’s role is and they have to decide if they are good with it.
This year we have 18 total and eight seniors again. Only the number #1 and #2 pitchers, one of the two catchers and our CF will be starters. So, four seniors won’t play a lot but again, their roles were clearly explained.
A few days after the teams (V, JV & freshmen) were chosen this year, he sent a note to parents saying that players could still be cut. “Word on the street” was that some seniors were not being leaders and they would be cut if they continued their current behavior.
Last year, the team made a deep run into the playoffs and we had a great group of players and parent which meant zero issues. This year, it remains to be seen but I think the message was received.
Buckeye 2015 posted:Kind of agree with others....if you're players #17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut? My son's school normally only had 28-30 in the entire program....so on days we played JV and Varsity, the Varsity would only have 15-16....which was ok, as we only had 1 or 2 kids that were PO's. If you are a bigger school with the option of having PO's, I could see keeping 22 kids....8 starting position players and a starting DH.....5 or 6 backups and 6 or 7 PO's. Again, I'm not sure why there is an issue with numbers....unless your coach treats it like rec ball and says "everybody plays" lol.
"Kind of agree with others....if you're players # 17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut?"
Really ? Is it the players choice ? Since when do they get to choose ?? That's how you make it sound ! Did you ever consider that if a nonproductive senior was cut he might find something that he was better suited to do ? I guess in some cases if a kid is an asset to team chemistry its fine to tell them he can remain on the team if he accepts that he wont play. Problem is most kids wont accept that role. Most HS kids also resist a PO role - even if its clear. A bunch of seniors on a varsity roster that aren't good enough to get on the field (and don't have a role) is a recipe for disaster. I have seen it too many times - and not once have I seen it end well.
I’m going to address keeping seniors who don’t play that increase roster size. My son’s high school coach would allow seniors to dress for varsity senior year if they hung in there for four years. The writing (varsity playing time) was on the wall for these players junior year as part time JV players.
The coach told them they were invited to be varsity players senior year as long as they didn't gripe, their parents didn’t gripe, they cheered and chased foul balls.
A couple of kids didn’t take the uniform over chasing foul balls. One of the seniors was such a good kid he had the ability to be a team leader from the bench. The team went nuts when the kid finally got an at bat. He drove a triple off the fence a foot from being a homer.
RJM posted:I’m going to address keeping seniors who don’t play that increase roster size. My son’s high school coach would allow seniors to dress for varsity senior year if they hung in there for four years. The writing (varsity playing time) was on the wall for these players junior year as part time JV players.
The coach told them they were invited to be varsity players senior year as long as they didn't gripe, their parents didn’t gripe, they cheered and chased foul balls.
A couple of kids didn’t take the uniform over chasing foul balls. One of the seniors was such a good kid he had the ability to be a team leader from the bench. The team went nuts when the kid finally got an at bat. He drove a triple off the fence a foot from being a homer.
There is always a place for a kid like that. But IMO a kid that embraces his role on the bench (as a senior) is the exception and not the rule.
Suds posted:A school in our area took 22, yes 22, kids on the varsity team. I think they have 60 across Freshman, JV and Varsity. Has anyone ever seen anything like this before? Going to be a lot of angry parents I think.
We had 25 last year - most of the teams around here do on varsity. We had 10-11 pitchers and needed them all. It's true that a few of the kids didn't play a lot, but this is the way it works in high school. The basketball team has 15 players and about 9 of them play every game.
Midwest Mom posted:Suds posted:A school in our area took 22, yes 22, kids on the varsity team. I think they have 60 across Freshman, JV and Varsity. Has anyone ever seen anything like this before? Going to be a lot of angry parents I think.
We had 25 last year - most of the teams around here do on varsity. We had 10-11 pitchers and needed them all. It's true that a few of the kids didn't play a lot, but this is the way it works in high school. The basketball team has 15 players and about 9 of them play every game.
Agreed. I checked our's and it has been between 22 and 28 for the last five years. That's pretty normal around here.
Our program has 25 players across V and JV. There is no freshman team. 4 seniors, 7 juniors, 7 sophomores, 7 freshman. I know 3 of the 4 seniors will play key roles and the fourth may too? I’ll find out as the season plays out.
My son is one of the freshman so I don’t know the makeup and roles of all the upper classmen yet.
So, I don’t think this will be much of an issue this year. I did hear that a sophomore recently decided to quit but I don’t know the reasons why.
2019Dad posted:Midwest Mom posted:Suds posted:A school in our area took 22, yes 22, kids on the varsity team. I think they have 60 across Freshman, JV and Varsity. Has anyone ever seen anything like this before? Going to be a lot of angry parents I think.
We had 25 last year - most of the teams around here do on varsity. We had 10-11 pitchers and needed them all. It's true that a few of the kids didn't play a lot, but this is the way it works in high school. The basketball team has 15 players and about 9 of them play every game.
Agreed. I checked our's and it has been between 22 and 28 for the last five years. That's pretty normal around here.
in order for that to work you need very defined roles. As in 2 deep at every position and 10 POs. Otherwise its a cluster****. Good programs seem to be able to implement that kind of structure. Others don't. There are way more others than good.
adbono posted:Buckeye 2015 posted:Kind of agree with others....if you're players #17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut? My son's school normally only had 28-30 in the entire program....so on days we played JV and Varsity, the Varsity would only have 15-16....which was ok, as we only had 1 or 2 kids that were PO's. If you are a bigger school with the option of having PO's, I could see keeping 22 kids....8 starting position players and a starting DH.....5 or 6 backups and 6 or 7 PO's. Again, I'm not sure why there is an issue with numbers....unless your coach treats it like rec ball and says "everybody plays" lol.
"Kind of agree with others....if you're players # 17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut?"
Really ? Is it the players choice ? Since when do they get to choose ?? That's how you make it sound ! Did you ever consider that if a nonproductive senior was cut he might find something that he was better suited to do ? I guess in some cases if a kid is an asset to team chemistry its fine to tell them he can remain on the team if he accepts that he wont play. Problem is most kids wont accept that role. Most HS kids also resist a PO role - even if its clear. A bunch of seniors on a varsity roster that aren't good enough to get on the field (and don't have a role) is a recipe for disaster. I have seen it too many times - and not once have I seen it end well.
We had a few seniors that didn't play much (but they all played at least a few games), but they wanted to be a part of the the team, they actually helped the younger kids and cheered them on and had a great time. It's all about perspective and how the coach handles it. Not all of these boys want to play at the next level. Some of them just enjoy working out and being part of a team at the end of their HS career when they've been playing since they were young.
Maybe this place is strange or the HCs I’ve scored for were just weird. Every time there’s been really large rosters, the HC has given marginal players the choice of being on the team and being allowed to practice with the team and be “covered” by the school insurance, or being on their own. Being on your own around here means little or no organized ball from Feb thru June because there aren’t many players.
Players almost always choose to be part of the team, even knowing they’ll get little or no field time. I can’t say how “all” parents feel, but the ones I’ve talked with about it are great with it because the alternative isn’t a good one.
Like all things, every situation is different so blanket statements just don’t cover everything.
adbono posted:Buckeye 2015 posted:Kind of agree with others....if you're players #17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut? My son's school normally only had 28-30 in the entire program....so on days we played JV and Varsity, the Varsity would only have 15-16....which was ok, as we only had 1 or 2 kids that were PO's. If you are a bigger school with the option of having PO's, I could see keeping 22 kids....8 starting position players and a starting DH.....5 or 6 backups and 6 or 7 PO's. Again, I'm not sure why there is an issue with numbers....unless your coach treats it like rec ball and says "everybody plays" lol.
"Kind of agree with others....if you're players # 17-22 would you rather be on the team...or be cut?"
Really ? Is it the players choice ? Since when do they get to choose ?? That's how you make it sound ! Did you ever consider that if a nonproductive senior was cut he might find something that he was better suited to do ? I guess in some cases if a kid is an asset to team chemistry its fine to tell them he can remain on the team if he accepts that he wont play. Problem is most kids wont accept that role. Most HS kids also resist a PO role - even if its clear. A bunch of seniors on a varsity roster that aren't good enough to get on the field (and don't have a role) is a recipe for disaster. I have seen it too many times - and not once have I seen it end well.
It is the player's choice as long as the coach makes it know that that's the case. As others have said, a lot of it depends on the school. My son's school doesn't normally have more than 30 kids total...unless we get a big freshman class like they had last year. If a kid has stuck around thru his junior year because of low numbers, I don't see many coaches booting them as seniors because they happened to get a big freshman class and bring the numbers up. At a school our size....a kid going into his senior year knows exactly where he fits in the program. If the coach says "you can have a uniform"...that's all it means. The kids know that any PT will only be in mop up situations
Stats4Gnats posted:Maybe this place is strange or the HCs I’ve scored for were just weird. Every time there’s been really large rosters, the HC has given marginal players the choice of being on the team and being allowed to practice with the team and be “covered” by the school insurance, or being on their own. Being on your own around here means little or no organized ball from Feb thru June because there aren’t many players.
Players almost always choose to be part of the team, even knowing they’ll get little or no field time. I can’t say how “all” parents feel, but the ones I’ve talked with about it are great with it because the alternative isn’t a good one.
Like all things, every situation is different so blanket statements just don’t cover everything.
I think there are a lot of regional differences on this subject - and many others too.
For those who feel like "seniors should be cut if they aren't gonna play" need to think about what is the point of high school athletics? People get upset about a perceived lack of loyalty in this world, but here it's almost being promoted.
Bulldog 19 posted:For those who feel like "seniors should be cut if they aren't gonna play" need to think about what is the point of high school athletics? People get upset about a perceived lack of loyalty in this world, but here it's almost being promoted.
My opinion is that seniors should be cut if they aren't capable of making a contribution to the team. There are ways to contribute other than playing - and I'm fine with all of those. I have just seen too many seniors that go south. Neither I or anyone else in this thread has said that seniors should be cut if they aren't gonna play. And loyalty has nothing to do with it.
In the 4-years my kid was on our 9A (Highest classification FHSAA - 2,774 TOTAL ENROLLMENT) Varsity squad, we had: 18, 20, 21 and 18 players...
So, yes...
Carried 27 my senior year. Went 5 rounds deep in playoffs and played over 40 games. We had a deep roster when it came to pitchers. No one complained when we were winning. Everyone knew their role and accepted it. There were maybe 2 or 3 seniors that didn’t play much, if ever, but they still talk about that team and the memories to this day.
We'll probably have 20 or more on our roster this year, both varsity and JV, and no POs. Our problem is our juniors, who are quitting because our starting line up is almost all seniors, with maybe two starting positions up for grabs. Went to the doctor the other day — 10 minutes to get medication for a sinus infection, 45 minutes explaining to the PA who saw me what positions her son should work on if he wants to make varsity this year.
23 on our Varsity, 15 seniors and 8 Juniors. Very competitive HS baseball team. Mine has an MRI in next two weeks on pitching arm and is shut down right now. Only a Junior, but a very important year for recruiting. I'm just happy the coach is letting him stick around until we find out the results of the MRI. Praying it's nothing major. We usually carry 20 plus and I think most of the kids know their role.
TXdad2019 posted:23 on our Varsity, 15 seniors and 8 Juniors. Very competitive HS baseball team. Mine has an MRI in next two weeks on pitching arm and is shut down right now. Only a Junior, but a very important year for recruiting. I'm just happy the coach is letting him stick around until we find out the results of the MRI. Praying it's nothing major. We usually carry 20 plus and I think most of the kids know their role.
Best wishes on receiving a good report from the doctor.
Daily inter squad games, keep record of every AB, hits, runs, errors and RBI, coaches pitch. The best players each week start the games. This is motivation to improve.
Bob
I don’t think 22 is too many at all. In Georgia, you play 2-3 games every week. I realize a lot of guys are 2 way players in high school, but the biggest problem is the typical HS gets through the season with mainly 2 starters and 1 or 2 other guys that get the bulk of the innings. When playoffs roll around, that doesn’t work. I would try to have at least 6 guys sharing the load to prepare for the post season. If you have ANY ambition to play beyond HS, you better get used to it. D1 carries 35 guys. Son’s team had 21 pitchers last year. No more than 10-12 had any significant innings. That’s a LOT of pitchers that sat and watched all season.
Normal in competitive regions in metro Atlanta. Just wait till college......
DrUGA Dawg posted:Normal in competitive regions in metro Atlanta. Just wait till college......
I am surprised how common it is around the country now. Both my sons have been on teams with less than 18 on varsity. Sure during the season some kids get called up from JV, but never started with more than 18.
I learn something new all the time
Cant compare college rosters to HS. 60 9-inning games vs 30 7-inning games. Traveling thousands of miles vs in our case here a couple hundred over the course of the season.
SultanofSwat posted:"Going to be a lot of angry parents I think. "
Just think how angry they would have been if they were cut. Thank your lucky stars that the coach recognized those players that were committed to the team and the game, even though they weren't going to be starters.
Cut them and you deal with angry parent one or two days
Keep them and you deal with angry parent the whole season
This is obviously worst case scenario. If you keep a kid who is a program guy but won't see a lot of playing time then you better explain that to him. I tell kids they don't have the talent to play much but because of work ethic, attitude, etc... we would like for them to stay but they won't play much and will be expected to show up and work hard. I give them that decision to make if they stay or not but if they stay they will not complain
In the Midwest we are playing 3-5 games per week from late March through mid May in 30s, 40s and 50s weather and A LOT of rain. We need 25 kids, especially the pitchers. Kids get sick and injured and pitchers can’t be overused. In warmer weather climates from what I understand there are a couple of games each week. You may not necessarily need as many players.