Velocity

NYdad2017,

There is something very special about high school baseball.  However, it can be very frustrating for scouting purposes.

Where HS baseball becomes vitally important is when a known prospect is playing his final season before the draft.  I'm sure many of you have seen the larger gathering of scouts at a HS game and they are there to see one player for the most part. Almost always that one player created that draft interest during the summer or fall before his final HS season.

It is well known in scouting, just how frustrating scouting a HS game can be. A few years ago about 40 scouts including at least a dozen scouting directors traveled to the Atlanta area to see Jason Heyward play a HS game before the draft.  They got to watch him get walked four times!  Probably good strategy by the team he was playing against, they wanted to win, but it was a big waste of time and money for the scouts. One scouting director said this was the third time he came in to see Heyward and it was pretty much the same way everytime.  This actually happens a lot in HS baseball when one team refuses to pitch to a top prospect.

This does not happen at the highest levels of summer or fall baseball.  When you have a prospect pitcher throwing to a prospect hitter, they are both trying to win that battle. You only see intentional walks when the situation calls for it.  Even then that doesn't happen much because the next hitter is also very good.  The pitchers want to face the top hitters and the hitters want to face the top pitchers.  And the MLB scouts and college recruiters absolutely love to see that. Sometimes you get to see what you came for in a HS game, but often you leave frustrated.  The actual game might have been great for all the fans, but a waste of time for the scouts.

Personally I love HS baseball, everything about it is great except if you are a scout or a college coach. Even if you are out there trying to find talent, how could going to one HS game compare to watching a high level tournament with a ton of talent?  Lets face it, it's just a lot more cost efficient and productive to go where the most games and the most talent is.

None of that detracts from how important, enjoyable, or great high school baseball is.

There is no doubt that HS ball is much more special. My kid likes getting some attention from summer ball and looks forward to a chance to impress as well as visiting multiple college sites. However, when the switch comes to HS ball, it's about getting that state ring. The summer thing can be fun and enriching, but for most ballplayers, HS ball embodies all the reasons they play the sport in the first place.

bacdorslider,

I didn't think that was the case.  My apologies if my response made it seem that way.

The purpose of my reply was more along the lines of stating that I have seen them at HS games and I was wondering why they attend, when the players they are looking at also play summer travel.  Which we both know typically has better players on the field.

Roothog,

You relayed what I was trying to say in a much better fashion then I did.  Thanks.

My son loves travel.  Especially the competition against some of the best players in the nation.  But in his mind, chasing that HS ring is what it's all about.  He was talking about HS baseball when he was in 2nd grade.  He couldn't wait for it.  And he still has that fire for it.

PGStaff,

I completely understand and agree.  There's a couple of teams on my son's schedule where it would be a waste of time for a college coach or scout to observe.  And as my son has spent the past couple of years with his travel team attending PG, Impact and Dynamic tournaments, I know where the better competition is.

In some respects, I'd imagine it would be good to watch a PO on one of those teams, as Lord knows his defense is bound to let him down.

I touched on this in an earlier post, but will lay out the question for anyone to feel free to answer.  

Why does a college coach, who is not limited by budget in his recruiting efforts (ACC, Big 10, etc), travel out of state to see a player in a HS game during his junior season? And this has been for PO's and position players.  Knowing that these players are on very good travel teams.

I agree what I highlighted in bold.

I never said anything about the coaching being better or worse at HS, I just said that college recruiters do go watch HS games, especially when the players come from the same state.

A good example would be UF, if you look at last seasons roster there were 25 players from FL. You dont think that any of the coaches never went to watch a HS game to watch a player he maybe considering for his program?

In TX boys play Tuesday and Fridays.  Some on weekends too. Not much chance for college coaches to come to a game when they are coaching their own. 

Without a doubt watching a recruit play at the highest level most likely will be the indicator for an offer. I don't think anyone is disputing that. But to imply that college coaches do not come to watch HS games isn't correct. 

Especially from hot bed states where a large portion of their players come from there.

BTW Vanderbilt had 12 players from TN. That's 1/3 of the roster and I am sure that one of those coaches watched a HS game within state.

Of course if you attend a PG tourney and you are a ranked player or have contact with an out of state coach, they will be out there watching.  

The whole idea is to never assume that you will be discovered by a coach by just playing HS ball.  But don't not assume a local coach will never show up to watch you play.

JMO

Regardless of HS or travel ball.

If your team doesn't have, or are playing a team with some stud players (preferably pitchers), you won't see many scouts at your games.

. . . .unless there are studs on the opposing team that the scouts are interested in.

I'm guessing here but you can find NCAA rankings,say for the top 300 D1's

So you're probably talking 151 & below.

Velo is king ! then learn how to pitch

Amen. 

I wish I would have realized this when my kid was learning the game.  He came to the game late (13) but it would have benefited him greatly to take the throw hard first approach.  Now he is just another soft tosser.  

At a fall college game of his a couple of weeks ago there were a few D1 scouts milling about.  There were pitcher after pitcher throwing 80-83, generally throwing strikes (65% or so) and mixing in some decent off speed stuff.  Two kids were throwing a bit harder.  One was 86-87 mph from the left side and one was 88-90 from the right.  The righty was wild as heck.  He got 5 outs but managed to hit 3 or 4 batters and walked 3 more.  Who were the scouts talking to after the game?  Yep.  Those two pitchers.  

So, while the righty certainly struggled it was the velo that mattered.  So, better to suck at full speed than be precise in first gear, if you will.  

c2019 - very interesting comment, but surely you have some "rules" that go along with that.  For instance, at what age do you switch and start learning how to pitch?  I could say just the opposite - learn how to pitch and then work on velocity.  I'm thinking about the little guys, maybe 10-12 yo.  Not real sure how these kids work on velocity when they have the immature body of a 10 yo.  When my 2017 was 10, he was good because he could throw it across the plate with decent velocity (not great, but made the batter swing or get called out on strikes).  Around 12 he realized he could intentionally throw outside the strike zone and still get batters out (still had only decent velocity).  He just turned 16 and is still growing and does not have the mass to throw hard for 60-80 pitches (he can occasionally fire it up these days) but I still feel velocity is coming over the next 24 months - and hopefully a similar number of pounds.  I'd argue that once you really fill out and have everything in place to max out velocity, it may be too late to learn how to pitch.  Is there some happy medium?

I'd posit develop good throw mechanics early, build strength AND learn to pitch in HS.  There is nothing to say you can't throw hard and pitch (or they are not mutually exclusive goals as a kid develops).

It's not quite as easy as "velocity first." However, that's pretty close. To me, it is important to encourage the intent to throw hard at an early age. I've come to believe that control isn't really a teach. You teach proper (whatever that means to you) mechanics and then work on repeating those mechanics to an extent that they are consistent. With those repeatable, consistent mechanics, control usually comes eventually - though not always. I believe, though, that if you teach that control comes from dialing down velocity and intent to throw hard, you may be dialing down something you can't get back later.

If they are young, just have them throw hard.  Get warmed up and throw hard.  You make games out of it and make it fun.  The body will organize its movement patterns to most effiecently accomplish the goal.  

If you take two 9-10 year olds and gave one traditional pitching lessons and one throw into a target as hard as he could by the time they are 16 I would bet everything that not only would the kid who was taught to throw as hard as he could throw harder but his mechanics would be more efficient.  

Of course in a team situation this would mean walks and such early on.  Who cares?  No one should really.  If you took that same kid who started throwing the piss out of the ball at 10 and he got with a coach who feels pressure to win games at 13, they would no doubt put the handcuffs on him and slow him down....up, down and out....tall and fall....or whatever else, and his velo would suffer.  

2017LHP ,

all I can say is what has work for my 2019, I always told him to throw as hard as you can , but at the same time , his arm mechanics were flawless, and I always watched it, cause its easy to fall off an pick up some sidearm, that  cant stand, I showed him over the top always, most coaches didn't like over the top when he was playing SS ,but his velo made them shut up, and when he threw a running out at 1st base from center field at age 10 , its was a sign to me that what we were doing was right, listen, everyone has their own ways, and I really never listen to anyone ,cause I would look at their kids and I wasn't impressed, maybe its me but that's the way I feel, you have to have  a Vision just like JERRY FORD (PG) , and trust me I've coach tons of boys and girls  that had the tools but never really wanted to work hard, my kid works harder than all the Sr at his High school , but again , he wants to do it,

I never let my son pitch until now , and everyone wanted him to pitch , just like they wanted him to play Football, but I didn't let that happen, when kids are young and a coach knows you can pitch ,they will abuse your kids arm, cause he can throw strikes,

for me I could care less if he threw a strike ,I wanted him to hit the back stop (blow it up is our motto), I only let him pitch as a closer,

he would walk 3, hit 2 batters, and strike out the side.

to me velo is king , the next level coaches want to see velo arm and bat exit velo.

most might not agree with me ,but my proof is in the pudding, numbers don't lie!

I would politely disagree with your contention about the coached and non-coached.  Only way this would occur as you outline would be if the coach is not really good.  I might agree if you "teach mechanics" to the one kid and make him throw strikes, then maybe two years down the road he would be slower.  What I really think though is that young kids often throw hardest with horrible form.  Think about the kid that can gun it across the infield but struggles from the mound.  The flat ground throw with steps allows the kid to throw naturally.  The throw off of a raised mound is somewhat unnatural way too many kids have zero leg strength/coordination (or cannot utilize it off the mound) when compared to arm strength/coordination and end up as arm pitchers.  Move forward 5-10 years (15-20 yo), the kids with good lower body mechanics synced up with their arms will generally come out on top.  I don't think having a 10 yo arm going at 75% (so upper and lower body syncs up) builds any type of muscle memory that is going to hold back any 15 yo.  I get the idea that some kids get taught "slow" and never really have it explained to them, but if a kids makes it to any college level, I don't believe he is at a physical disadvantage because he threw "soft" in little league.

Was typing at the same time.  I think you just stated one of your rules - "make sure mechanics are flawless".  With that one rule, I will agree, however at an early age max effort and flawless mechanics seldom come together.  I guess my comments are for the mom/dad watching their 8 yo and maybe want them to play high school one day - not a knowledgeable instructor looking at a 12 yo thinking they have D1 talent.  I think I've spent too much time at the LL park where you hope some mom doesn't buy their left handed kid a RHT for their first glove.

I agree, I left the LL park at age 9, since the moms and dads were killing me lol, and some of  the kids that played with my c2019 ,now didn't even make their HS freshmen team. gotta love daddyball! but its never too late to pitch,  I've seen MLB teams move a OF to pitch cause he can throw 95 from the outfield,

I think most coaching sucks to be blunt....little league, travel ball, high school, private lessons....mostly garbage.  But, that is just my experience. I am talking about how coaching is done in terms of pitching.  I have not found one coach would could really teach a kid how to have command.  Most teach with verbal cues (bad) and teach to a preset set of mechanics.  Throwing is going to be a very individualized movement.   

If you take a kid that throws hard but is wild and teach him to "slow down" to gain control his velocity will suffer.  

As for guys playing beyond high school, either in college or the pros, it can be a bit of chicken vs egg discussion.  Are they naturally more talented so they would have risen beyond the level most play no matter what?  Or did they receive better instruction along the way that led to their success?  Maybe a mix of both.  

As for a younger kid who has good arm talent and struggles on the mound.  I would instruct him to throw hard off the mound, if he walks 4 guys in a row, so be it.  Over time his body will figure out how to throw strikes and improve command.  The key is to not stop throwing hard.  The coach, feeling pressure to win and glares from parents, will no doubt trying to "fix" his mechanics.  Which is to say, stop him from the throwing hard to hopefully win a 10 year old little league game.  This stifles development that happens naturally.  

This all speaks to a bigger issue to me, youth baseball really has it backwards in terms of development in my humble opinion.  Too many games, not enough skill development.  Taking Johnny from 3rd base and putting him on the mound because he throws hard and then expecting him to throw strikes when he really hasn't worked on it is absurd.  If he struggles a couple of times, he is that kid "that throws hard but can't throw strikes".  

This is a kin to buying a kid a guitar, giving him a couple of basic lessons and putting him on stage in front of people as a way to learn how to play music.  Not very efficient.  

I can see both sides’ velo vs being able to pitch. My son has been able to paint the corner, throw 3 different pitches for strike and pitch to contact. Last year at a 15U game, he threw a 7 inning game on 57 pitches. He had zero strikeouts. As he has gotten older, he concentrated on accuracy and developing all of his other pitches, however his velocity has stayed almost the same since LL. As he started to get older he ended up being used less and less due to his velocity. It wasn’t until he tried out for a national level team that he realized that 63 mph as a 14 year old playing on a 15U wasn’t going to cut it. He since started to work on his velo, and has changed his world around. He can use the velocity to get out of trouble and everyone is starting to take notice of him again. So yes being able to pitch is vital in the long run, but at this time of their lives developing the arm needs to be the priority. Velo is king, until hitters are good enough to hit it.

2B/P 2019 - I'm not quite sure I would have suggested throwing 63 as a 14 yo, but this is interesting.  You mentioned he has improved his velocity - can you add some color around how much faster he is throwing and how he made the adjustment?  At 63, I have to believe he already had some in reserve and picking up maybe 10 mph would seem like it would drastically change the arc of his fastball (much less drop from gravity).  Assuming 63 was fastball, would love to have seen his off speed stuff.

2018 has never had a pitching lesson other than tips from brothers and HS coaches. He threw the other day for a person of interest and was 87-90 hitting 18-20 spots with a 80-81  12/6 

he has thrown hard since he was 5 trying to stay up with brothers. So in light of his recent interest, I thought maybe I should get him a lesson or two from a respectable pitching coach, you all now him (think tank)  and I was told to never let 2018 have a lesson until he's in college. 

everyone is different....but VELO is king  I say again VELO is king.  well really a well placed fastball with velo is king.

at the end of the day velo is king that will get you notice, im not say Greg Maddux wasn't king, but he started throwing  gas when he was first notice,  and if you look at all the MLB starters in the KC and Mets line up! mostly all had  'GAS" .

yet the harder you throw, the farther the ball goes when hit, but at the next level ill take my chances on Velo all day.

100% agree. If I could give this 100 "Likes," I would.

I started a thread about six weeks ago about whether it is a good approach to focus on command first, and then worry about velocity at a later date? Or is it better to do it the other way around? That thread had a lot of twists and turns, but postscript on that thread: the JV pitching coach has since told 2019Son to throw it as hard as he can -- which was music to 2019Son's ears because that's what he has always tried to do. As roothog said, "intent to throw hard." 

Sort of the same philosophy as "pop time is king" for a catcher. We'll later teach 'em accuracy.

2015 was at a showcase early on recruiting journey, where top pop timers for the event's throws weren't anywhere near the 2nd base bag. Son overheard some players in "catcher's line" say, don't worry about where it goes, just throw hard. Son later said to me, "Why don't have any of those guys in my league? I'd be on third on their overthrow."

At the start of the Spring/14U-Summer/15U he was consistently throwing 63, he was hold back. He could hit 67 if he tried. After his tryout in the summer he decided to throw every pitch at max velocity for the remainder of the summer and fall season. I could see an increase in speeds over the season. He has always thrown long toss, but he took it a little more serious and more often. This fall he tried out for one of the better teams in our area throwing at 74. Curve-ball at 60 and Change-up at 63. His accuracy has gone down a bit and he can still dial it down a bit to throw a strike. Since he has the velocity to get out of jams his strikeouts have gone up and runs scored has gone down. Does throw more pitches per game. During the summer he averaged 12 pitches per inning and now is up to 15-16.

Agreed on pop time. The timed result and measured velo FAR outweigh where it goes, provided it is still in the vicinity of 2B. Of course, the footwork, transfer, and mechanics are closely tied to time, velo, and accuracy. But all things being equal, if a player has decent of better mechanics, FIRE it as hard as possible.