Velocity for age 10

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I'd like to ask a few questions of all those old timers who played, let alone pitched.

When you were young, did anyone protect you from arm injury? No

Did you ever throw things as hard as you possibly could? Yes

Did you throw for extended periods of time? Yes

Did anyone count the number of throws you made? No

Did you make sure you had sufficient recovery time before throwing hard again? No

Did you ever play burn out for long periods of time? Yes

If so, did you make sure you didn't throw the ball too hard? No

Did anyone have a radar gun on you? No

And if you grew up before 1974 had you ever heard of TJ Surgery? No

Good questions.

I was naive and so were the people who tried to teach me how to pitch. The only thing I knew how to do was throw the ball as hard as I could each time and because of that, I suffer from arthritis in my shoulder. I wish someone would have taught me how to pitch and yes pace myself. I wish someone would have stressed that you don't have to throw your hardest to be successful. If I was teaching a young man now, I would teach him about changing speeds each pitch (put a little on, take a little off). I would also teach him to save his hard stuff for when he really needed it which hopefully wouldn't be that often if he was actually learning how to "pitch."

Guess my point was regarding all these injuries these days vs in the past. And the radar gun being some kind of evil instrument.

Kids that can throw hard will throw hard with or without a radar gun around.

IMO. before you can save your hard stuff, you have to have it or develop it. I think the confusion in some of these opinions is because of the age this topic is about (10).

At that age, kids that have a good arm are going to throw hard. I think it's out of everyone’s control, for the most part. Anything else could affect his aggressiveness, which ultimately take away an important item in being a successful pitcher.

So IMO there is nothing wrong with teaching changing speeds and improving pitching skills. Also I don't see anything wrong with striving for a bit more velocity within reason. After all, velocity is a combination of natural ability and good mechanics. Teach a kid good mechanics and he is very likely to throw harder with less stress. To me, that should be the goal... Not necessarily more velocity, but better mechanics... that will end up producing better velocity... and with less strain on the arm which will allow him to stay healthier longer.

No one is immune to arm injury! For most it's just a matter of time. I don't believe that arm surgeries on 22 year olds is a result of what they did at 10 years old.

The goal at 10, be it swinging a bat, pitching, etc. should be on mechanics and hopefully instilling a true love for the game. It's never too young to learn proper technique. These things will serve well as the player matures both physically and mentally.

It would be very interesting to talk to some of the dads of the greatest pitchers ever. Bob Feller, Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens, etc. Wonder how they went about things? My guess is that there wasn’t a lot of micromanagement involved.

Far from the success of those listed above, my son pitched in the Big Leagues. I really didn’t care that much whether he would be good at baseball. He is the one who cared. I taught him how to throw correctly, never mentioned throwing harder or softer. He, just like most, wanted to throw hard. I never told him not to. TJ Surgery at 23 years old. I think his injury was caused at 23 years old or at least at sometime during his pro career.

PG,
With all the throwing that you did, how much was it done from a mound?

Isn't there a big difference between throwing and pitching?

TR's line at the bottom holds some truth, kids don't spend enough time throwing, but perhaps spend too much time pitching (and on the mound).

I don't think anyone is arguing that lots of throwing is harmful.

Good point CD. Who teaches a pitcher to pitch their top velocity every pitch? But rather to use that max power when you need it the most.

JMO

Do they use mounds at 10? It's been awhile since I've seen a 10 year old game.

Pitchers are the ones who "throw" the most. The one thing that all pitchers need to be good at in order to be successful is "throwing". Throwing is more important for a pitcher than any other position.

I don't think anyone teaches pitchers to throw max velocity on every pitch. That would be a big mistake.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:

Pitchers are the ones who "throw" the most. The one thing that all pitchers need to be good at in order to be successful is "throwing". Throwing is more important for a pitcher than any other position.
QUOTE]

Again, I don't think anyone is arguing that.

I am sure that you have read through this entire topic.

So I will ask, what is your opinion on young players 10-14 pitching every other day from a mound?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Do they use mounds at 10? It's been awhile since I've seen a 10 year old game.

Most of them do, and even at younger ages. Fortunately the mounds are lower.

quote:

I don't think anyone teaches pitchers to throw max velocity on every pitch. That would be a big mistake.

I would agree with this, but a lot of youth coaches - and some up through high school - are going to put their hardest throwers on the mound. The kids know that they are there because they throw hard, so that's what they keep doing.

Regrettably many coaches, youth and high school, have neither the time or knowledge to effectively teach pitching. Especially true for smaller high schools, where the baseball coach is also an asst. football coach and a teacher. That's not an indictment as much as an observation.

Two years ago I was scorekeeping for a 10yo sectional tournament hosted by our LL. In one game the winning team had two pitchers, both of whom were snapping off curve after curve. Wonder if those kids are going to make it to high school with their arms intact. BTW, they were the coaches' sons.

And before anyone says "Properly thrown curves are no harder on your arm than a fastball" note that I said "snapping" - the action was more like a hard slurve.

Oh my, PG you are a heretic! Radar guns are evil and you will burn in a ring of fire if you use one.

PG,
I played burnout with Dan Pastorini when I was 13. Barehanded. I'm guessing that limited his velocity more than it limited mine.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:

Pitchers are the ones who "throw" the most. The one thing that all pitchers need to be good at in order to be successful is "throwing". Throwing is more important for a pitcher than any other position.
QUOTE]

Again, I don't think anyone is arguing that.

I am sure that you have read through this entire topic.

So I will ask, what is your opinion on young players 10-14 pitching every other day from a mound?

It seems as if TPM is not gonna let this one go. Get over it TPM, my son lightly pitches roughly every other day and has been doing it for over 4 years. So what? Are you becoming obsessed with it?

Get over it....

Not to be rude, but......

Totally unbelievable!

quote:

TJ Surgery at 23 years old. I think his injury was caused at 23 years old or at least at sometime during his pro career.

son had TJ at 21. i'm of the belief it was an injury that took years to develop, and showed up one day. i'm not an expert, but i rode by a holliday inn express.

quote:

i'm of the belief it was an injury that took years to develop

20dad,

I think that's the case more often than not.

I'm no expert at this stuff, but it's always amazed me how many and what type of pitchers are most likely to have TJ surgery.

I'm not sure I see any correlation between the very hardest throwers and those who don't throw quite as hard.

If we look at the very hardest throwers, and highest strike out pitchers. Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, etc. Why do some of them escape TJ surgery? Especially if velocity is the biggest problem.

Ryan and Johnson may have thrown more pitches over their long careers than anyone in history. Their mechanics were different and both threw more "high velocity" pitches than anyone. I have no idea what they did in their youth years, but if they pitched I bet they threw it real hard for their age!

I think we need to understand that each and every case is somewhat different. I'm not sure there is any proven formula that fits every individual. There's always risk and reward issues.

If you run as fast as you can often enough, sooner or later your likely to hurt something. If you never run fast, you'll never become a fast runner!

quote:

If you run as fast as you can often enough, sooner or later your likely to hurt something. If you never run fast, you'll never become a fast runner!

Interesting discussion with metaphors! One way to put gas in the tank is to throw hard. Another way is long toss. Still yet another way is learning proper mechanics and still others include lower body and core work. I am the first guy that would want to see the hard stuff if I knew my kid could throw it. What I would do differently is having them learn to pace themselves, locate the fastball, and learn to pitch to contact if at all possible. I love strikeouts just like the next guy however. When I was talking about changing speeds above, I was not necessarily talking about learning changeups and breaking balls. I was talking more about learning to throw the fastball at different speeds - put a little on and take a little off while locating to both sides of the plate. It seems that approach might require a pitcher to cruise at something less than his max fastball so that if needed to put a little on, he could do it.

I think luck may be the biggest factor of all. There are lots of guys in the minors right now who were drafted in the first round yet previously had TJ surgery. I am not aware of any labrum guys drafted in the first round however.

It is pretty simple for my son these days. Looking at a big enough picture such that the day to day variations in velocity don't cloud the picture, if he throws hard, near his peak velocity a few times a week the velocity stays the same or goes up a slight bit.

If he doesn't throw hard and only throws at his working velocity then the velocity, both working and peak, tend to drop off until he can get in some regular work on throwing hard. Long toss works for throwing hard and throwing hard in the pen with some feedback works.

I think there's a lot of similarity between developing running speed and throwing speed. If you run distances and just jog or run 3/4s when running sprints you aren't going to get faster as a result. If you run sprints and run a lot, but not necessarily all of them all out you are going to get faster. Most kids still won't be sub 7.0 60 runners and very few will get down below 6.5 no matter how much they run so there is a genetic factor involved.

Similary, if you only pitch at BP speeds and never throw all out you aren't going to develop your fastball. If you go out and throw hard at times it will help develop the fastball. Most kids won't get over 85 mph and very few will get over 90 mph no matter how effectively they train to throw hard because there is a genetic factor involved.

Pitching is a little different because there's much more involved in pitching well than just throwing hard and one has to balance working on location, off speed pitches, and pitching in games with working on getting faster.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:

Pitchers are the ones who "throw" the most. The one thing that all pitchers need to be good at in order to be successful is "throwing". Throwing is more important for a pitcher than any other position.
QUOTE]

Again, I don't think anyone is arguing that.

I am sure that you have read through this entire topic.

So I will ask, what is your opinion on young players 10-14 pitching every other day from a mound?

It seems as if TPM is not gonna let this one go. Get over it TPM, my son lightly pitches roughly every other day and has been doing it for over 4 years. So what? Are you becoming obsessed with it?

Get over it....

GBM...

TPM IMO was simply asking PG his opinion of what he thought of 10-14yr olds pitching every other day from a mound. Nothing more, nothing less. It is a very legitimate question. And the last time I checked this website offers one the freedom to voice and/or express their opinions as they choose.

And I never have a problem with that except when certain individuals want to corner another Poster on here and harass or belittle them. It's not that hard to act your age on here.

What I don't understand is how your posts seem to change like a chameleon on here. One day you are teaching him to throw as hard as he can and the next time he is "lightly" pitching. And earlier you said it WAS every other day and now it's "roughly" every other day.

I think it's already been decided that you do what you feel is necessary with your son. For his sake, we all hope that what you do with him is correct. Only time will tell.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I think we need to understand that each and every case is somewhat different. I'm not sure there is any proven formula that fits every individual. There's always risk and reward issues.

I think that is what we have been saying here, that each and every pitcher is different and there may not be any proven formula but only can go by what the experts suggest and even then there is controvesy. I go with the theory what makes sense, for each age appropriate in the development of a pitcher. Actually things haven't changed much since our guy was 14, we just used common sense, which is the best advice of all.

Can we not agree that in many cases as in everything else, it can become accumulative?

I am sure that 20dad has gone over in his mind what was done right and what may have done wrong, but I have never heard him come here to suggest what a pitcher should or should not to do because he knows that every pitcher is different and every circumstance is different.

Because you are a hard thrower does not mean injury will or will not happen, the danger in young hard throwers is that they are used often because they are successful, which is true at every level. We can monitor and protect them for so long, that's why I feel it is important to limit what they do when they are are under our control and very young. As I stated here from what a doctor told son, the less time spent pitching is less wear and tear overall, that's why he beleives that son began pitching too soon, at 8. That's an opinion, doesn't mean it's the right one. But it's from a qualified individual who is probably seeing more youth injuries than we do everyday.

The whole object is to get through your youth years, high school years injury free, until your son has been through that situation, you don't realize how that can affect your career, whether it be college or beyond. The bottom line is that Ryan and Johnson are exceptions, IMO, in some place or time all pitchers get injured, you want to be at a certain place where a year off doesn't mean that you will be discarded because of injury. Yes that's the chance you take pitching, but most people don't realize that injuries before college, injuries before pro baseball can place a stigma on you, damaged goods. Shoulder surgry being the biggest for pitchers. That prevents larger scholarhips and larger signing bonus (if that's your goal). For those that think that if you make it to pro ball and get injured then they will provide the BEST care, that is not always true, minor leaguers are subject to the care of the team doctor for all expenses paid, although allowed a second opinion, any care not within the team doctor might be strictly at your expense. Most milb players with major issues, especially shoulders, get fixed up, rehabbed and released. Seriously, you don't want to sustain a major injury in milb. Let's alos not compare proven ML pitchers that have come back from injury to college or pro players that haven't.

GBM,
I also noticed that you change your stories, first it's throwing from the mound as hard as he can to develop his velo, now it's lightly throwing, which is it really? We have no way of knowing what you are doing will prevent any injury, so yes I am obsessive about parents with 14 year olds giving advice as to how he is breeding his pitcher. It may be good, it may be bad, come back in a few years and then let us know, don't you get that? Anyone of us whose sons are a bit older can give you a list of things that you should or shouldn't do, but that wouldn't be realistic would it, as every pitcher is different, so why give it looking forward?

And yes I can ask PG anything I want, even though I haven't ever received a reply, he knows me and our player for a long time. I give him the right to reserve his opinion of me , not you.

CADad,
Good post. Since son has been feeling better, and a FB pitcher, he has to throw in game situations and BP his hardest frequently (to learn to accuratley hit spots with his highest velocity), those are things that you have to do because you are being paid to do so, so I understand what you are saying.

But he is 24 close to 25.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:


GBM,
I noticed that you change your stories, first it's throwing from the mound as hard as he can to develop his velo, now it's lightly throwing, which is it really? We have no way of knowing what you are doing will prevent any injury, so yes I am obsessive about parents with 14 year olds giving advice as to how he is breeding his pitcher. It may be good, it may be bad, come back in a few years and then let us know, don't you get that? Anyone can give you a list of things that you should or shouldn't do, looking back, but that wouldn't be realistic would it, as every pitcher is differnt, so why give it looking forward?

And yes I can ask PG anything I want, even though I haven't ever received a reply, he knows me and my player for a long time. I give him the right to reserve his opinion of me, not you.

I never changed any story. You keep assuming things. That I believe is your problem. You don't ask questions- you just start assuming things..

When i mentioned "lightly throwing" I meant it in the context of "pitch count". Once again you assume too much and take things out of context. You do so in a negative manner, trying to paint me as a fool to the other posters. Be more polite and ask some questions first before you just go off accusing me of changing stories.

I also suggest that you don't hammer me so bad on what you have no idea about- you are in the same position as I on what may or amy not work. But for you to just come off in a an all out assault on what I have found to work so far with my son with proven results to me states that you just personally have something against me. Are you a paid pitching instructor? How many books have you wrote on the matter? We are both in that same boat- going for a ride not knowing beforehand what will positively work and what will not. We both try different currents to navigate and as such shouldn't critisize each other until the journey is over.

Have I ever questioned what you did with your son?


I didn't think so, show the same respect.

I wasn't the only one who noticed that things change, that's not my fault if you are not getting your point across as to what you meant.

I always thought there was a big difference between a light pen vs. a short pen.

Or is that different language used for different parts of the country.

I don't always agree with CADad, but he gets his point across well and BTW has made some good subtle suggestions here.

You also don't seem too flexible in your posts, like it's my way and my opinion and I am sticking to it. Lots of this has to do with being flexible. You have been given some good pointers here with some people far more knowlegeable than me, but it doesn't seem to matter, your way is working so you are sticking to it. You are entitled to your opinion as is everyone.

I did question you, you didn't answer. For example, how many pitches total in a week does he throw on the mound?

Do I like you, I don't know you, just don't like some of what you preach here.

And that's my opinion and I am sticking to it.

Best of luck to you and your son, hopefully all that you are trying to achieve will pay off for him someday, and you. Whatever you do though, don't push him to prove others wrong, do it for the right reasons.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:


I did question you, you didn't answer. For example, how many pitches total in a week does he throw on the mound?

Son pitches around 100-125 per week including pens and games.

How many books have I written on the subject? Several, but for some reason nobody buys them.

Sorry, too fun of a question to pass up even if it wasn't for me.

Heard recently that a kid's total season pitch count should not exceed his age x 100.
I am sure this can't include bullpens....right?

I'm pretty sure that the pitch counts only include the pitches in games and not bullpens, warmup pitches, etc.

One just has to use a bit of common sense when including bullpens and other throwing in the "equation".

Pitch counts are a good counter-measure to injury but I still see kids in leagues who abide by the pitch count guidelines that have sore elbows and shoulders. For some kids I know, it seems that everytime they throw they have some elbow and shoulder pain. So whereas the pitch counts will benefit these kids and prevent them from being thrown too much, I am not sure much of anything is being done to fix or correct the majority of kids who have pain when they throw. Most coaches and parents solutions are to just throw some ice on it. For some it means strengthening the arm through exercises hoping it wil go away. A few seek real solutions by going and getting advice on what is causing it prompting them to have the change they need.

There is a saying that there are "only so many bullets in a gun". Yes that is true if there is a mechanical flaw and you can't reload the gun- so it is with pitchers. If they are always in pain and it just seems to get worse the harder they throw or the more they continue to throw then yes, there are only so many bullets in the gun before they blow out the arm.

So whereas I like the idea behind pitch counts preventing over zealous parents and coaches from ruining arms, I still feel that not much is being done on the local level to teach and instruct youth, parents and coaches about avoiding injury brought on by certain types of persistant pain. Coach recently told son to go home and ice the arm. We told him that son never ices the arm- never has a need to ice it. I often wonder if somehow the process of "icing" the arm is just a way of bypassing or overlooking a problem in a lot of pitchers without ever really looking for solutions to actually prevent the pain in the first place.

Icing too far after the fact is wasted effort anyway. Every single authority I've discussed it with want immediately post pitching for 15-20 minutes, then shower, then only if needed, my son doesn't regularly ice but has on occasion, depending on the outing and how he feels when he walks off. Going home and icing would be somewhat indicative of someone who "wants to help" but just leans back on conventional wisdom without actually knowing the wisdom.

The problem with pitch counts is that the guys who "really" need them figure ways around them (I'm speaking of youth players here).
Many parents who "fall" for the Travel scene won't be observing p counts on the little league view..they will still find tourneys where they can go back to back or double the load on a Saturday...Unfortunately the same kids are likely the "hotshot" so with non-conditioned arms they take on a major league or college like load..it doesn't take the swamey to know the arm won't hold up to that.....and darned if it doesn't...time after time..not hold up..this is where Dr. Andrews gets his youth clients..not from the LL WS. Heck if kids were "limited" to just LL I'd bet the number of arm injuries would plummet. Real world though, that doesn't happen.

The need for ice depends on the individual. Inflammation can become a problem in and of itself once it gets past a certain point. Icing can help some people from getting to that point. When there is pain or significant soreness after throwing icing is usually a good idea to keep inflammation from getting out of hand. Significant doses of anti-inflammatories can also keep inflammation from getting out of hand but they can have negative side effects such as being bad for bone healing thereby increasing the probability of stress reactions/stress fractures.

On one hand not everyone needs to ice. On the other hand, there are people who benefit from icing and a policy of not icing will put them at risk.