West coast D2 Naia D3

I have sent players to a few, have watched a few and son has friends on a few.  I have been at every campus.  What type of info are you looking for? 

I see you live in SD so you are probably quite familiar with the amazing campus location and field that Point Loma has.   All have a Christian emphasis to varying degrees except Pomona.   Pomona and Westmont are consistently at or near the top of their conference and regular post-season participants.  Pomona plays in the toughest conference of the schools you listed and typically has the most depth, particularly with pitching.  The others have schedules with frequent cupcakes, particularly Westmont's schedule the last few years.  They all have at least decent baseball programs.  Many coming into these programs, particularly the D3 and NAIA Christian schools, find it surprising how much of a business the baseball aspect is and how challenging it can be to crack the roster. 

Westmont campus and field are also off the charts good, up in the hills with a view of Santa Barbara in a very wealthy neighborhood.  Quite small.

Azusa is much more "in town" than the others and the campus a bit older and definitely not as impressive as the others.  The field is nice but a bit quirky, fit into a small space. 

Pomona is quite spread out and nice but inland, more dry and the location not as "ideal" as Westmont or Point Loma.

I had a player who was a low-mid level D1 talent OF who went to Westmont and it took him three years to get regular PT.

Another point of reference... an IF I am familiar with in very recent years had trouble getting PT at Azusa and then went to SD Christian and was a regular starter.

Campus, college life. Facilities. Field. Overall experience. What's nice and what's not. Thx. Also with the religious schools any input.

Cabbagedad broke it down pretty well. I've been to all those schools except Azusa. Vanguard is a really nice small school. Pitching coach is good. A Tom House guy. Westmont nice facility. Area code game try outs are held there for SoCal players . Both Westmont and Vanguard are pricey.

This seems to be the most recent thread on these schools.  Anyone have any updated info?  More specifically, how would you compare the D2 schools against the NAIA schools?  Much appreciated!

2020Hopeful posted:

This seems to be the most recent thread on these schools.  Anyone have any updated info?  More specifically, how would you compare the D2 schools against the NAIA schools?  Much appreciated!

Much is the same.  Pomona plays in the CCAA, which is traditionally one of the strongest top-to-bottom D2 conferences in the country.  They typically have anywhere from 4-7 strong D2 programs but that will take a little bit of a hit as UCSD moves up to D1.  Azusa and PLU play in the Pacwest, which is not as deep as the CCAA.  Most years, the few best Pacwest teams can play with the better CCAA teams, though.  And, you get to go to Hawaii and Point Loma every other year.  The NAIA conference that Westmont and Vanguard play in (GSAC) is a big drop from those D2 conferences.  It is improving to where there are a few less cupcakes but those former cupcake programs that improved are just OK now instead of bad.  Again, though, the better few teams are typically pretty strong and do fairly well in NAIA post-season play.  Roster depth is a big differentiator across these conferences.  You won't typically see players that don't look like they belong on a college field in any CCAA play.  You can't say the same for some of the GSAC teams.

Let us know more specifically what sort of comparisons you are looking for.

My 2 cents about some of the D2s you listed....

Azusa Pacific: Suburban campus, however a 1 hour drive to the mountains or beach. Their baseball field is a dandy for lefty hitters. Gigantic weight room in a new facility next to campus. Their coach has been there awhile and to me, was an A+ guy and very honest/forthcoming. Family man who lives in area. Program is always competitive.

Point Loma: Location cannot be beat and there are some great kids that attend the university. Coach has a good reputation and is attracting good players. Ballpark is awesome and a nice place to watch a ballgame.  Literally steps from the beach. Weightroom leaves a lot to be desired.

Westmont: Beautiful area adjacent to Santa Barbara and very nice ballfield.  

Cal Poly Pomona: In my opinion, they do a very good job picking up guys that have fallen through the cracks and are legit D1 level players. Good education and nice facilities. Suburban area is kind of blah.

Good Luck!

Thanks to you both!  With baseball being significantly stronger in the Pacwest D2 schools over the GSAC NAIA schools, how do the academics compare?  Are there NAIA schools with significantly better academics/reputation that would compensate for the drop in baseball?

2020Hopeful posted:

Thanks to you both!  With baseball being significantly stronger in the Pacwest D2 schools over the GSAC NAIA schools, how do the academics compare?  Are there NAIA schools with significantly better academics/reputation that would compensate for the drop in baseball?

If academics are high on the priority and you are obviously targeting California, why are you not looking at the D3 options?  The SCIAC has probably some of the better academic schools when comparing with these other specific conferences and the baseball is better top-to-bottom than the GSAC IMO.

cabbagedad posted:

2020Hopeful posted:

Thanks to you both!  With baseball being significantly stronger in the Pacwest D2 schools over the GSAC NAIA schools, how do the academics compare?  Are there NAIA schools with significantly better academics/reputation that would compensate for the drop in baseball?

If academics are high on the priority and you are obviously targeting California, why are you not looking at the D3 options?  The SCIAC has probably some of the better academic schools when comparing with these other specific conferences and the baseball is better top-to-bottom than the GSAC IMO.

We have looked at D3 and he has some options, but they offer little to no academic money and we do not qualify for any need-based (already submitted FAFSA).  Scholarship offers at D2 and NAIA schools range from about 50%-full tuition, which is a big incentive. 

cabbagedad posted:

2020Hopeful posted:

Thanks to you both!  With baseball being significantly stronger in the Pacwest D2 schools over the GSAC NAIA schools, how do the academics compare?  Are there NAIA schools with significantly better academics/reputation that would compensate for the drop in baseball?

If academics are high on the priority and you are obviously targeting California, why are you not looking at the D3 options?  The SCIAC has probably some of the better academic schools when comparing with these other specific conferences and the baseball is better top-to-bottom than the GSAC IMO.

Here is a quick look at the teams within the SCIAC

2019

2018

2017

WestCoastPapa posted:

My 2 cents about some of the D2s you listed....

Azusa Pacific: Suburban campus, however a 1 hour drive to the mountains or beach. Their baseball field is a dandy for lefty hitters. Gigantic weight room in a new facility next to campus. Their coach has been there awhile and to me, was an A+ guy and very honest/forthcoming. Family man who lives in area. Program is always competitive.

Point Loma: Location cannot be beat and there are some great kids that attend the university. Coach has a good reputation and is attracting good players. Ballpark is awesome and a nice place to watch a ballgame.  Literally steps from the beach. Weightroom leaves a lot to be desired.

Westmont: Beautiful area adjacent to Santa Barbara and very nice ballfield.  

Cal Poly Pomona: In my opinion, they do a very good job picking up guys that have fallen through the cracks and are legit D1 level players. Good education and nice facilities. Suburban area is kind of blah.

Good Luck!

Below are 2019 Team Rosters by position

Disclaimer: Currently reconciling year end activities.

Cal Poly-Pomona

Westmont

Point Loma

Azusa Pacific

2019 Team Roster Insights

2020Hopeful posted:

cabbagedad posted:

2020Hopeful posted:

Thanks to you both!  With baseball being significantly stronger in the Pacwest D2 schools over the GSAC NAIA schools, how do the academics compare?  Are there NAIA schools with significantly better academics/reputation that would compensate for the drop in baseball?

If academics are high on the priority and you are obviously targeting California, why are you not looking at the D3 options?  The SCIAC has probably some of the better academic schools when comparing with these other specific conferences and the baseball is better top-to-bottom than the GSAC IMO.

We have looked at D3 and he has some options, but they offer little to no academic money and we do not qualify for any need-based (already submitted FAFSA).  Scholarship offers at D2 and NAIA schools range from about 50%-full tuition, which is a big incentive. 

Got it... figured that might be the case.  So, 50% - full tuition... are those actual offers in hand or just what you anticipate as possibility? 

Many schools in those two conferences have a religious slant... somewhere between moderate and heavy.  That will be significant in the decision process.  Most will have small class sizes with good access to academic support (professor availability, tutors, etc.).  I'm sure I'm gonna screw this up but, from arms length, most don't have particularly strong reps as high academic schools - still, some certainly better than others.  I think Menlo has some pretty strong ties for business majors.  Academy of Art obviously has specialty niche and is in SF if that is the desired career path.  Others can offer much better info regarding specific academic strengths at each.  Now that we're past the conference comparisons, you really probably need to list the specific schools you are considering.  It would also help to know if there is a preference to specific major/s.

I have one son in the GSAC and 1 in the SCIAC this year. The religious schools may not be considered HA however they have kids who go to them who could go HA but chose not to. My GSAC son's school is very academicly challenging.  Most religious schools from my personal experience are more difficult than people realize and have their own feeder programs to grad and professional schools. ( went to a sister school of PLNU)  and Westmont competes with Weaton (IL) for academic minded religious students. I have many Dr and Lawyer friends from religious schools.

i really don't think one can go wrong with most of the schools if it meets your son's life goals (and your pocketbook). Ultimately it is where your son would love to spend his college years and will get his major to move on in life and where he fits in best regarding baseball. Also the religious GSAC obviously schools have people from sinners to saints, from atheist to believers.  You just got to abide by the rules and some are more strict than. others. 

Cal Poly is interesting with respects to trending more on upper class and Juco players.

2017 Team Roster

2018 Team Roster

2019 Team Roster

From a financial perspective,

In 2018, Baseball was ~17 percent of the overall athletic budget

Baseball Budget has increased steadily in 10 yrs

Financials for 2019 will be available on the EADA website end of year and released for public consumption by March 2020.

My 2017 looked at a number of these schools and now competes in the CCAA, and his former pitching coach is now the head coach at Point Loma (great guy).  I fully agree with 2BOYDAD that you cannot go wrong with any of these schools, at least in terms of the baseball programs.  They are all very solid programs, and consistently so, with respected coaches. 

Asuza and CPP are likely to rely more on transfers and JuCos than the other programs are, but there are some kids who are part of them for all 4 years.  If I read your reply correctly and your son is getting some athletic money considerations, he is likely good enough to be a contributor at these or any of these schools.

Each campus and school has a definitely different "vibe" to it, so by all means, be sure to take the coach up on a campus visit.  If possible, have your son attend a class, eat in the cafeteria, stay overnight, etc.  He could really sense a difference in student life, and one of the schools he determined was too small and devout to interest him after he visited.   So I highly recommend checking them out before making any decision.

Of course the weather is great for all of them, but it is pretty hard to beat San Diego!

Below is some insights on Azusa Pacific

2019 Distribution by Position

2019 Team Roster Insights

2018 Distribution by Position

2018 Team Roster Insights

2017 Distribution by Position

2017 Team Roster Insights

2018 Expense by Sport

Baseball Expenses 2009 - 2018

He has checked out all of the schools that have given him an offer and agree they have different vibes (most are D2/NAIA in SoCal, but also has opportunities in NW, which we are more familiar with).  He has no problem with the religious aspect.  Gathering information on academics to see how that fits into his analysis for picking the right fit.   With HA schools now out of the picture, if one school has significantly superior academics or, conversely, is known for very poor academics, that might outweigh the baseball strength and/or vibe.  He is interested in the sciences and likely will go to graduate school, so we are trying to be smart about picking a school that has strong academics so that he is prepared for graduate school, but also want to save some money knowing college is likely not the end of the road for him (hence HA D3s are out of the picture).

2020Hopeful posted:

He has checked out all of the schools that have given him an offer and agree they have different vibes (most are D2/NAIA in SoCal, but also has opportunities in NW, which we are more familiar with).  He has no problem with the religious aspect.  Gathering information on academics to see how that fits into his analysis for picking the right fit.   With HA schools now out of the picture, if one school has significantly superior academics or, conversely, is known for very poor academics, that might outweigh the baseball strength and/or vibe.  He is interested in the sciences and likely will go to graduate school, so we are trying to be smart about picking a school that has strong academics so that he is prepared for graduate school, but also want to save some money knowing college is likely not the end of the road for him (hence HA D3s are out of the picture).

Sounds like he's in a great spot! 

Just to expand on my comment regarding religious slant and the varying degrees...  some schools have a good Christian vibe but loose requirements while others have a very heavy emphasis, strict rules, daily service requirements, etc.  Just something else to check out and try to match with whatever your son's preferences and upbringing are as best as possible. 

Lastly, pay attention to the JC transfer factor.  Multiple schools fit into this category in both the Calif. D2 pool and the NAIA pool you are looking at, although the better JC players more typically land on those D2 schools in the CCAA while many of the "decent" JC players land in the other conferences in question.  A decent freshman can find himself buried for a long time or released due to the steady influx of JC players who have already proven they can perform at the college level.  Oh, and those schools that lean heavily on JC transfers tend to also be the schools that more aggressively go after drop-downs.  That said, if you are getting offers of 50-100%, this is far less likely to apply.

2020Hopeful posted:

He has checked out all of the schools that have given him an offer and agree they have different vibes (most are D2/NAIA in SoCal, but also has opportunities in NW, which we are more familiar with).  He has no problem with the religious aspect.  Gathering information on academics to see how that fits into his analysis for picking the right fit.   With HA schools now out of the picture, if one school has significantly superior academics or, conversely, is known for very poor academics, that might outweigh the baseball strength and/or vibe.  He is interested in the sciences and likely will go to graduate school, so we are trying to be smart about picking a school that has strong academics so that he is prepared for graduate school, but also want to save some money knowing college is likely not the end of the road for him (hence HA D3s are out of the picture).

Schools and curriculum are pretty similar anywhere you go. The difference between schools has more to do with what they offer and the type of environment you'll be put in more than it has to do with what they are teaching. I would argue that unless you're going into business, engineering, or another field that relies heavily on connections/school reputation then it doesn't really matter where you go. As long as you pull good grades and prove your work ethic is there grad school is within reason no matter the school. It's not like he'll be missing out on a certain curriculum if he attends one of the smaller, less competitive schools. If notable HA schools are out of the picture choose a school based on affordability, location, culture, and baseball. Ivy League schools are better than other schools because they get the top students, not because of the curriculum for their Bio 101 classes. 

cabbagedad posted:

2020Hopeful posted:

He has checked out all of the schools that have given him an offer and agree they have different vibes (most are D2/NAIA in SoCal, but also has opportunities in NW, which we are more familiar with).  He has no problem with the religious aspect.  Gathering information on academics to see how that fits into his analysis for picking the right fit.   With HA schools now out of the picture, if one school has significantly superior academics or, conversely, is known for very poor academics, that might outweigh the baseball strength and/or vibe.  He is interested in the sciences and likely will go to graduate school, so we are trying to be smart about picking a school that has strong academics so that he is prepared for graduate school, but also want to save some money knowing college is likely not the end of the road for him (hence HA D3s are out of the picture).

Sounds like he's in a great spot! 

Just to expand on my comment regarding religious slant and the varying degrees...  some schools have a good Christian vibe but loose requirements while others have a very heavy emphasis, strict rules, daily service requirements, etc.  Just something else to check out and try to match with whatever your son's preferences and upbringing are as best as possible. 

Lastly, pay attention to the JC transfer factor.  Multiple schools fit into this category in both the Calif. D2 pool and the NAIA pool, although the better JC players more typically land on those D2 schools in the CCAA while many of the "decent" JC players land in the other conferences in question.  A decent freshman can find himself buried for a long time or released due to the steady influx of JC players who have already proven they can perform at the college level.  Oh, and those schools that lean heavily on JC transfers tend to also be the schools that more aggressively go after drop-downs.  That said, if you are getting offers of 50-100%, this is far less likely to apply.

To clarify, the 50-100% offers are combined academic and athletic money with a large portion being academic.  We have noticed the Juco transfer factor that you and others have raised, and we have talked about whether the amount of athletic money offered by the D2/NAIA schools signifies an expectation from the coach that our kid can be contributor on the team.  Of course, that's hard to gauge since we don't know what other kids are being offered to be able to compare.

Just an FYI and this may or may not apply to your situation but if it is "determined" by the fin aid office that your son doesn't need financial need based aid or is getting a good academic aid the coach may offer less athletic $ knowing the parents can pay and therefore have more $ to give to another. The amount of aid may not necessarily reflect the coaches interest in you son. Just an FYI based on experience.

PABaseball posted:

2020Hopeful posted: Ivy League schools are better than other schools because they get the top students, not because of the curriculum for their Bio 101 classes. 

Ivy League and top HA schools in general have not reinvented the sciences, arts, humanities or anything else. But in some cases, these schools are on the forefront of discovery based on research. To kind of make the blanket statement (paraphrasing here) that a biology degree from Stanford is looked upon in the same light as one from Loyola Marymount would be pretty misleading. Both teach the basics, sure. But are there research opportunities? Are the professors teaching the courses leaders in their field and invited to conduct research? This is where there can be an enormous difference in schools. The best students do go to the Ivy League schools and the like...not just because they are the best students, but because they are attracted there by experts in the field who are paid handsomely to teach there....even bio 101.

The reason why the athletic money is so important as a gauge of a coach's interest in baseball is because so little of it is available, even relatively speaking for the top programs.  Its not like football and basketball, where almost the entire team is on an equal footing for scholarship money.  For a kid to receive an offer of any baseball money, it means the coach is going to see him as a future contributor in the program.  He has a limited amount of scholarships and money to spread around a limited part of the team, so he is going to give it to who he expects to contribute.

That doesn't necessarily mean it should be the decider between schools--there are plenty of kids in baseball who do not receive athletic money and yet play a lot and contribute.  And there are some kids on scholarships who do not produce and wind up on the bench, at times losing opportunities to a player who outproduced him who is not on athletic money.  Nevertheless, it is an important indicator of potential playing time, so it should be weighed heavily in your school consideration if baseball and playing time is a big factor in his college choice.

2boydad posted:

Just an FYI and this may or may not apply to your situation but if it is "determined" by the fin aid office that your son doesn't need financial need based aid or is getting a good academic aid the coach may offer less athletic $ knowing the parents can pay and therefore have more $ to give to another. The amount of aid may not necessarily reflect the coaches interest in you son. Just an FYI based on experience.

It does seem that this was the case in at least some of the offers, which of course makes it even harder when trying to "read between the lines" in terms of how the amount offered relates to expected level of contribution as a player.  In those cases, the coach had a good idea of what his academic award would be based on SAT/GPA and then offered to bump up to X% with athletic money.

collegebaseballrecruitingguide posted:

PABaseball posted:

2020Hopeful posted: Ivy League schools are better than other schools because they get the top students, not because of the curriculum for their Bio 101 classes. 

Ivy League and top HA schools in general have not reinvented the sciences, arts, humanities or anything else. But in some cases, these schools are on the forefront of discovery based on research. To kind of make the blanket statement (paraphrasing here) that a biology degree from Stanford is looked upon in the same light as one from Loyola Marymount would be pretty misleading. Both teach the basics, sure. But are there research opportunities? Are the professors teaching the courses leaders in their field and invited to conduct research? This is where there can be an enormous difference in schools. The best students do go to the Ivy League schools and the like...not just because they are the best students, but because they are attracted there by experts in the field who are paid handsomely to teach there....even bio 101.

I agree that the Ivy's and top HA schools have a definite edge in academics and I would love to be able to send my son to one of them (he's definitely worked his butt off to earn it in high school!), but I'm not convinced the cost-benefit analysis justifies paying more than $300K for an undergrad science degree (assuming you don't qualify for financial aid).

I wouldn’t disagree with you.

2020Hopeful posted:

collegebaseballrecruitingguide posted:

PABaseball posted:

2020Hopeful posted: Ivy League schools are better than other schools because they get the top students, not because of the curriculum for their Bio 101 classes. 

Ivy League and top HA schools in general have not reinvented the sciences, arts, humanities or anything else. But in some cases, these schools are on the forefront of discovery based on research. To kind of make the blanket statement (paraphrasing here) that a biology degree from Stanford is looked upon in the same light as one from Loyola Marymount would be pretty misleading. Both teach the basics, sure. But are there research opportunities? Are the professors teaching the courses leaders in their field and invited to conduct research? This is where there can be an enormous difference in schools. The best students do go to the Ivy League schools and the like...not just because they are the best students, but because they are attracted there by experts in the field who are paid handsomely to teach there....even bio 101.

I agree that the Ivy's and top HA schools have a definite edge in academics and I would love to be able to send my son to one of them (he's definitely worked his butt off to earn it in high school!), but I'm not convinced the cost-benefit analysis justifies paying more than $300K for an undergrad science degree (assuming you don't qualify for financial aid).

This may not have been your point, but in many cases Ivy or other HA schools are no more expensive than middle of the road private schools (in-state publics are much cheaper).  For example, LMU is the same price (maybe more when you add all the fees) as Stanford.  For this reason, there's no reason to dismiss Ivy or HA because of cost, even without financial aid.  In either case, STEM is probably a better payback than most other degrees.

2020Hopeful posted:

2boydad posted:

Just an FYI and this may or may not apply to your situation but if it is "determined" by the fin aid office that your son doesn't need financial need based aid or is getting a good academic aid the coach may offer less athletic $ knowing the parents can pay and therefore have more $ to give to another. The amount of aid may not necessarily reflect the coaches interest in you son. Just an FYI based on experience.

It does seem that this was the case in at least some of the offers, which of course makes it even harder when trying to "read between the lines" in terms of how the amount offered relates to expected level of contribution as a player.  In those cases, the coach had a good idea of what his academic award would be based on SAT/GPA and then offered to bump up to X% with athletic money.

Try to do as little reading between the lines as possible.  Part of the process should definitely include your son asking the coach specifically where he sees him contributing in the baseball program and when, of course with the understanding that there are no guarantees and the player has to perform to the level the coach is seeing him.  He should not settle for "I see you competing for PT right away..." .  He should ask what he would anticipate the most likely results being based on what he has seen of him to date and his experience with players of similar talent level.  What players will he likely be ahead of and behind coming in.  This will give you both a better chunk of data to try to decipher.  Then, combine that with the offer and see if they align.

Smitty28 posted:

2020Hopeful posted:

collegebaseballrecruitingguide posted:

PABaseball posted:

2020Hopeful posted: Ivy League schools are better than other schools because they get the top students, not because of the curriculum for their Bio 101 classes. 

Ivy League and top HA schools in general have not reinvented the sciences, arts, humanities or anything else. But in some cases, these schools are on the forefront of discovery based on research. To kind of make the blanket statement (paraphrasing here) that a biology degree from Stanford is looked upon in the same light as one from Loyola Marymount would be pretty misleading. Both teach the basics, sure. But are there research opportunities? Are the professors teaching the courses leaders in their field and invited to conduct research? This is where there can be an enormous difference in schools. The best students do go to the Ivy League schools and the like...not just because they are the best students, but because they are attracted there by experts in the field who are paid handsomely to teach there....even bio 101.

I agree that the Ivy's and top HA schools have a definite edge in academics and I would love to be able to send my son to one of them (he's definitely worked his butt off to earn it in high school!), but I'm not convinced the cost-benefit analysis justifies paying more than $300K for an undergrad science degree (assuming you don't qualify for financial aid).

This may not have been your point, but in many cases Ivy or other HA schools are no more expensive than middle of the road private schools (in-state publics are much cheaper).  For example, LMU is the same price (maybe more when you add all the fees) as Stanford.  For this reason, there's no reason to dismiss Ivy or HA because of cost, even without financial aid.  In either case, STEM is probably a better payback than most other degrees.

LMU and Stanford may have similar sticker prices, but at LMU a kid who can get into Stanford would get between $20K-full tuition academic scholarship (regardless of need) and Stanford only offers need-based aid.