What separates players who are drafted?

Once you get past the obvious selections, mental approach, baseball savvy and personal conduct (how they carry themselves in pregame and the game) can make the difference. A player should assume he's being watched from the time he gets off the bus and/or comes out of the locker room. A coach may place a positive comment with a scout as to what kind of person the player is in the locker room and the dugout.

The five tools gets you qualified, the projection, attitude, hustle, team work, personal makeup, sometimes parents are dis-qualifiers!

You really need to have the skills to get looked at and drafted, but if you lack the intangibles, scouts will walk away.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Once you get past the obvious selections, mental approach, baseball savvy and personal conduct (how they carry themselves in pregame and the game) can make the difference. A player should assume he's being watched from the time he gets off the bus and/or comes out of the locker room. A coach may place a positive comment with a scout as to what kind of person the player is in the locker room and the dugout.

Hate be cynical, but the importance of off-field personal conduct in the draft actually is in direct proportion to talent level. I won't name names but you don't need to google very much to verify how little conduct or appearance actually matters in the draft. Bad behavior rarely seems to even cost players any money, other than attorney fees.

The upper rounds of fhe draft are liberally sprinkled with felons.

that is a great question. with about 1500 kids drafted every year,you wonder how they do it. not to mention the international kids who sign.

but i agree with dad04 off field things aren't huge if your a player.

At rounds 20-30, I don’t think they will be as forgiving. You are right if you are a total stud, they may tolerate more....but if the talents are the same, who do you think they will take a chance on?

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
I am trying to find out what separates players who get drafted from players who do not.

This is just my opinion, besides having ability and tools, some players are drafted with the team hopes of being future ML players, some players are drafted to fill in the holes for milb and then given an opportunity to prove themselves to do more.
A player I know was drafted in the 45th round a few years back, now I see he was just moved to the 40 man roster. That may not mean he will get to MLB but it does mean the team he is on has future plans for him.

Some players don't get drafted because they can't fully commit, some want more money than they are worth at the time. I don't think it's really anything that is easy to understand, why some get drafted and why some do not.

I do agree with Dad04, talent will prevail over any player that has off the field issues. Tean know that a lot has to do with just being a kid and growing up.

besides talent you need exposure

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Once you get past the obvious selections, mental approach, baseball savvy and personal conduct (how they carry themselves in pregame and the game) can make the difference. A player should assume he's being watched from the time he gets off the bus and/or comes out of the locker room. A coach may place a positive comment with a scout as to what kind of person the player is in the locker room and the dugout.

Hate be cynical, but the importance of off-field personal conduct in the draft actually is in direct proportion to talent level. I won't name names but you don't need to google very much to verify how little conduct or appearance actually matters in the draft. Bad behavior rarely seems to even cost players any money, other than attorney fees.

The upper rounds of fhe draft are liberally sprinkled with felons.

Exactly why I started my response with "Once you get past the obvious selections ...." In rounds 30-50 there's enough gray area on talent/potential to bother with character issues.

Makeup is very important, but to MLB clubs it’s only important when a player has enough talent.

Each year there are thousands of super kids with remarkable work ethic and great character who do not get drafted. A few do get drafted as “organizational” players.

There have been some bad makeup types who have slipped a lot lower than their talent dictated they go in the draft.

The biggest problem is that most people do not understand exactly what championship caliber or plus makeup is. The type of makeup they are looking for is the type that will allow the player to reach and succeed at the major league level. They are not looking for a bunch of nice choir boys.

Another strange thing regarding makeup… One club might think a certain player has makeup problems while another club might think the same player has great makeup. Everyone does not have the same definition as to what great makeup is.

We need to remember who some of the greatest players ever and some of the greatest teams in history were. Lots of players that most people would have a hard time describing that type of makeup in a positive way.

This all led to one of baseball’s most famous sayings, I think by Leo Durocher… “Nice guys finish last” Just for the record, I’ve never believed in that statement even a little bit. Our prisons are full of not so nice guys and that is even worse than being in last place. And of course, we all know, there have been many champions who are also nice guys. Just real talented nice guys!

BTW, usually the "obvious" selections end after about 5 or 10 picks. Every year there are players drafted in the first round that were not so obvious.
When a player is drafted in the later rounds, its still with the hopes that the player ends up helping the Big League club. This has actually happened many times. So they're still looking for talent above all else.

Thanks for all the opinions and info. What I can assume from what has been written so far is that talent is obviously the most important followed by game savvy, attitudeand work ethic.
If a 17 yo can throw 90-95 mph, hit the ball almost 400 ft or run at whatever the magic number is, does this get the attention of the scouts and then they look at the other factors?
Thanks for the feedback. I love this website!!

There are kids who have tools and get drafted. Then, there are kids with tools who don't get drafted. Those who get drafted are those who show the tools at game speed.

Baseball, compared to other sports like football or basketball, requires greater management of adrenaline. A player needs to be quick and explosive, but in a more controlled, managed way.

Great speech in Any Given Sunday by Pacino -Game of Inches. He says "Life's this game of inches...the margin of error is so small...one half a step too late or too early, and you don't quite make it...one half second too slow or too fast and you don't quite catch it...the inches we need are everywhere around us...they're in every break of the game, in every minute and every second...those inches are the difference between winning and losing".

So, those players that have the mental makeup to arrive at speed and on time while maintaining form are those who will perform at the highest level.

So, for me, the player who has the ability to remain calm, confident and be explosive has the mental makeup necessary.

quote:

Thanks for all the opinions and info. What I can assume from what has been written so far is that talent is obviously the most important followed by game savvy, attitudeand work ethic.
If a 17 yo can throw 90-95 mph, hit the ball almost 400 ft or run at whatever the magic number is, does this get the attention of the scouts and then they look at the other factors?
Thanks for the feedback. I love this website!!

fillsfan,

Yes, that will definetly get the attention of scouts and then they will look closer at everything else. Talent and tools are still and have always been #1.

I agree with "cheeseattheknees" when he talks about the tools being usable or shows tools at game speed. For example running speed can be great, but its much better if the speed is usable on the bases. However, if a player has excellent tools and scouts know who he is, he will be a draft prospect. They would rather have the guy with MLB tools and teach him the rest, than have a guy who has everything else except lacks the neccessary tools.

I relate it to a hitter who jumps out because he doesn't have the ability to manage his adrenaline, or, because he doesn't trust how quick he really is. He's the guy who puts on the power display during BP, then struggles at game time.

Or, the pitcher who rushes forward and the arm lags causing him to be out of synch. Yet, in a bullpen session, everything is impressive.

Those with tools and the ability to manage to manage their adrenaline and/or anxiety are the special ones.

Cheese,

Excellent points, to add something else to what you've mentioned...

quote by cheeseattheknees

quote:

Those who get drafted are those who show the tools at game speed.

The game changes speed at every level. You have to "project" or predict if a player has the ability and makeup to make the adjustments all the way to the top. Game speed can be very different and it's always somewhat of a prediction, in most cases, whether or not someone will be able to play at Major League "game speed". That is where the tools are important... in making a good prediction.

Everyone likes to see players compete against the best possible competition. That helps answer a lot of questions. It's also the reason many high school and some college players don't succeed at the professional level. For example, when you see a player hit with wood against good 90+ or quality breaking balls it means much more than hitting against average high school pitching.

BTW, just to be clear... I'm very big on good kids! To me that is much more important than being a good baseball player. Just trying to give an honest opinion to the original question.

Here's another old scouting saying...

"Tools get you drafted, but makeup gets you to the Big Leagues"

Some players even change their makeup (as I relate it) depending on the situation.

How many times do you see a MLB player succeed on a small market team. Then go to NY or Boston, and crumble under the pressure of the big markets. They return to the small market, and BAM, they're good again.

Other players thrive in the big moment. They control the adrenaline....slow the game down.

Yes, it is crazy! Should give people an idea of just how difficult (unscientific) scouting can be sometimes. Finding the raw physical talent is the easiest part. Some just can't make the neccessary adjustments while others can for some reason. Some thrive on the big stage while others don't.

Scott Kazmir always impressed me as a big game kid who would be at his best in the 7th game of a World Series. Hope he gets that chance someday.

Cheese, I've really enjoyed reading your great thoughts on this topic. Hope you stick around for a long time.

Yes, thanks Cheeseattheknees. Your posts are very informative and helpful. Please stay awhile.

a little off topic but cheesesatheknees made me think of an article writen about josh hamilton. it kind of high lighted his rookie season. when he reached either AA or AAA, he was playing in front of 4 or 5 thousand people. and they were ragging on him about his signing bonus and he wasn't worth the money etc.


i don't know how you ready your self for that situation? fans can be brutal, it must be tough for young players to take. along with the fact at some point they are going to struggle at a level. things you can't really practice for but are there. i guess it's all part of the master plan.

Cheeseattheknees and PGStaff make alot of sense. A players has to show his tools in game situations. When top notch tools are shown against top notch competition is when a player is noticed and subsequently drafted. Basically what your saying is playing well under pressure is a huge indicator for scouts.
On the Perfect Game website there is a video clip of Scott Kazmir throwing some nasty fastballs and sliders at a major tournament. Thats what you guys are talking about and thats why he was drafted in the first round. Thanks again.

I was talking to a former ml player last hs season before one of my games. We were talking about players and the whole process of making it to the "show". He said this "Some guys are not sure if they belong in the show or not. The ones that make it know they belong."

Just thought I would throw that out here in this discussion. Ive seen guys that were tremendously talented. But when they were on a big stage they never really performed at the level they were capable of performing at. Then I have seen kids that were talented but not as talented as some other kids. But everytime they were put in a big situation or on a big stage they played their best. Is Pedroia that good? Or is he the kind of guy that plays with a chip on his shoulder and the big stage is where he will shine? I know he is good. But is he even better on the big stage? Just like some guys are day in and day out very good players. But on the big stage do live up to expectations.

Is that also known as the "it Factor"? Some just have what it takes to be successful. I was listening to the XM Rob Dibble show and they were speaking of the "it" factor. I guess we also call it "makeup",a "gamer", the player who always seems to do better in a game then he does during practice. I think cheeseattheknees called it "controled adreneline". But the tools have to be there first as everyone has already said. But once you get the opportunity, the "it factor", the "makeup" or the "gamer" within the player get you to the next level. Joe Dimaggio I believe said: "some people are just born to play baseball".

At some level, they are all talented. Some more than others. But, the 25th player on the MLB roster, his worst day (skillwise) is better than the best day for which some of us could hope.

What sets them apart from the rest of us, is the consistency with which they accomplish their task. Watch them practice. The 25th guy's BP is amazingly consistent. He may not stroke like, say, Bonds. But, within his toolset, it is consistent.

What sets them apart from each other are the level of physical tools and, then, within guys of similar tool sets, the mental makeup. Those with the calm, confident explosiveness (again, comparing within same toolset) will succeed.

The ability to slow the game down, while the other guy's world is swirling around him. To me, that's what separates guys within the same toolset. That's the difference between moving up and be left behind.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Here's another old scouting saying...

"Tools get you drafted, but makeup gets you to the Big Leagues"

On the series The Show** the D'backs GM said with how hard it is to get to the majors, the biggest disappointment are the kids with the tools who blow it with lack of mental makeup.

Casey Daigle has been up and down with the D'backs in 2004 & 2006. Daigle said he wasn't emotionally and mentally mature enough to stick. Anyone who has seen his tools knows he has tools.

** Chronicled six D'backs prospects in 2006 ... Chris Young (D'backs 2007 CF), Casey Daigle (not called up in 2007 ... life isn't all bad: married a decent pitcher), Carlos Quinten (Stanford/had D'backs RF job and lost it), Bill Murphy (CSUN/called up in September 2007), Dustin Nippert (WVU/up and down in 2006 & 2007) and Brian Barden (Oregon State/called up as injury replacement in 2007, sent back and released/finished season at Memphis).

While I realize he had to know he was being filmed, the stunned look on Carlos Quinten's face after being told he was called up was priceless. He thought he was going to get chewed out for getting down on himself again.

The Show was on Mojo Network last showed this past spring and summer. It's a six part series. If it repeats again people might find it interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
Is Pedroia that good? Or is he the kind of guy that plays with a chip on his shoulder and the big stage is where he will shine? I know he is good.

Pedroia has talent, a chip on his shoulder and a tremendous amount of confidence he fits in. How many rookies would do a midseason pregame lineup announcing himself as Dustin "I own Mike Lowell in cribbage" Pedroia. He dissed (in fun) an accomplished veteran on national television. He's believes in himself and made himself fit in early. Lowell responded by saying he loves having a 4'8" second baseman for low throws.

I recommend that anyone interested in playing pro ball for a living and their parents to watch that series.

For young players who are goint through the system, they quickly realize how hard it is to even get to where those players are. You will find most milb players goal is to make the 40 man roster, then the 25. Then getting to the Show and sticking there is a whole different animal.

Anyone know if that is able to be purchased anywhere? I just did a search on Amazon and nothing urned up.

The Mojo Network is on extended cable, I saw it through comcast.

Fascinating thread to me.

My observations, so far, include the talent, tools, work ethic too. But I have also noticed that there is some intangibles there, hard to quantify and put into words, but they are there.

I have also learned that talent, tools, work ethic, and even the intangibles are not enough.

The sun, moon, and the stars also have to be in alignment and you have to have some luck.

Part of Coach May's quote jumped out at me.

"The ones that make it know they belong."

I remember when my son was young that it was hard to accept that he was headed on a path to play baseball. It was hard to let yourself think that it might be a possibility. That he might have the talent to make it. It still is.

But there was confirmation from others along the way that said its OK. That's part of what this site is about.

I wondered if he would make it from high school to college. Then I saw an acceleration in him duing college that I did not expect or know was possible.

Near the end of fall instructional league, after they had worked the through out the time on the mental aspects of the game building confidence, etc. one of the coaches pulled my son aside, and said, "You are going to spring training. You might have the opportunity to catch some of the pitchers on the MLB roster in spring training."

"It's OK for you to be there.........."

Thank you for sharing that very touching story, FO.

It is interesting that throughout this thread the "mental aspect" of the game is noted as a key element---we spend more time on this than practicing with our Fall team--we would rather spend an extra 10 minutes on this aspect before a game than take infield/outfield---we feel all our kids have all star talent but they need to hone the mental aspect of the game---that can be the difference at the next level---and I am not sure how much of the mental aspect is taught at the HS level

You can see some guys - and they just have "IT".

Makes no difference what other factors are involved. What school they went to or didnt go to - how big they are - blah blah blah.

You cant really explain it - its very hard to accurately describe it - but you know it when you see it.

quote:

Originally posted by 55mom:
Thank you for sharing that very touching story, FO.

quote:

Originally posted by cheeseattheknees:
At some level, they are all talented. Some more than others. But, the 25th player on the MLB roster, his worst day (skillwise) is better than the best day for which some of us could hope.

What sets them apart from the rest of us, is the consistency with which they accomplish their task. Watch them practice. The 25th guy's BP is amazingly consistent. He may not stroke like, say, Bonds. But, within his toolset, it is consistent.

What sets them apart from each other are the level of physical tools and, then, within guys of similar tool sets, the mental makeup. Those with the calm, confident explosiveness (again, comparing within same toolset) will succeed.

The ability to slow the game down, while the other guy's world is swirling around him. To me, that's what separates guys within the same toolset. That's the difference between moving up and be left behind.

I think the above is very accurate.

FO,
Way to go!

Just a recap: Series called "The Show" on Mojo Network which is through extended comcast only?? Just switched to Dish Network (don't ask..huge mistake)..anybody know if Mojo is on Dish??

I found something about Mojo Network and The Show(didn't want you guys to think I don't do my own legwork)...

http://www.mojohd.com/mojoseries/theshow/

quote:

I am trying to find out what separates players who get drafted from players who do not.

Good question filsfan. I think for the most part you can condense it all into one word ---- PROJECTIABILITY! During my son’s senior year of HS he was invited to a pre-draft workout in Bush Stadium along with a few players the Cardinals were looking to draft. In my opinion my son didn’t have the necessary experience or resume to be drafted as a catcher so I asked the scouting director why they wanted to draft my son. His reply was: We want to draft your son because he has the things that cannot be taught and we feel confident we can teach him the things that he needs to learn. He probably had caught less than 100 innings TOTAL in his life when they drafted him in the 5th round as a catcher.
Fungo

quote:

Originally posted by Newcomer:
Just a recap: Series called "The Show" on Mojo Network which is through extended comcast only?? Just switched to Dish Network (don't ask..huge mistake)..anybody know if Mojo is on Dish??

I don't think it's being broadcast anymore. I'd check again in the spring. I have Mojo on Direct. It's also on our local Comcast cable.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:

quote:

I am trying to find out what separates players who get drafted from players who do not.

"We want to draft your son because he has the things that cannot be taught and we feel confident we can teach him the things that he needs to learn."
Fungo

Opposite story a catcher was drafted from Clemson as a pitcher in the 4th round, only 28 innings pitched in college.

He did touch 100mph though and you can't TEACH that!

quote:

Opposite story a catcher was drafted from Clemson as a pitcher in the 4th round, only 28 innings pitched in college.

He did touch 100mph though and you can't TEACH that!

I think the unproven pitcher w/100 mph velo is a great example of drafting on projection rather than experience.
I never felt that all the other intangibles (hustle, desire, commitment, character, yada, yada) were major factors in DRAFTING players however those are the characteristics that commonly determine a successful progression up the ranks of MILB and on into MLB. It's tough to know how a player that has had everything in the past will respond to having to ride a bus all night long and spend a week in a motel with a player that has very little in common with you (other than baseball) ----- while making less money than minimum wage. Some adjust quite well while others struggle with the lifestyle. To some it can be a dream come true while others might see it as a nightmare. I don't know anyone that can predict exactly how they will respond until you put them in that position. I'm sure there have been scout/scouting director conversations that end in: "Let's draft him and see".
Fungo