Why My Son Will Never Receive One Ounce Of Hitting Instruction!

This seems logical.  Curious what other's takes are.  Interesting perspective.

Wouldn't the same argument and success of our particular children be as valid a reference as Lantz's example?  IOWs, he uses the lack of proper throwing motion on his daughter modeling his toss back as the reason she didn't throw properly and then, his young son having hitting success at such an early age because he isn't getting coaching as the reason we should all not coach/instruct our children.  The opposite of that then is all of us who did do so and of whom our kids have had success. 

 

I don't have a problem with a 4 year old and the cue swing hard.  However, he is being coached.  I'm sure that Lantz might be doing it in ways that he doesn't even know.  In the video, he talks about the hands, tells the son the put the bat on the shoulder, ...  He is coaching in ways that might lead to success and failure. 

IMO, just spending time with his children and allowing them to play regardless of any cue will result in success for his kids.  Kids can figure a lot of stuff out on their own. 

 

Here are some examples of kids w/o instruction swinging on their own:

 

(Photos from Chris O'Leary's site.)  They are swinging as hard as they can!

 

I started instruction with my daughter and her team when she was 8.  At 10 I started posting video of her on line.  Many former members here and a few "Old Timers" here watched her grow up on video.  I have shared the instruction I gave her as she grew up.  Many have tracked her success at various stages  She was blessed this past year with being named an All American.  IMHO, that is because she received good instruction along with many many recommendations from member of several sites which we incorporated along our journey. 

 

The "problem" with TB and HS is not necessarily the coaching/instruction.  The problem is the parent and or coaching staff not being able to keep a proper perspective as to the age of the child and what is appropriate. 

 

All of this is JMHO!

 

Darrell

My son started hitting off a tee when he was eighteen months old. His tee and the Little Tikes cart full of whiffle balls and dead tennis balls was his favorite toy. I wasn't going to teach a toddler how to hit. I positioned him to swing once and told him to make noise. The closest thing he got to instruction from 2-6 was me positioning the tee relative to where he was standing so he wouldn't swing like a gate. For his first three years or organized ball (7-9) his swing looked great for self taught. If a kid is willing to practice and play a lot he'll figure out a lot of the adjustments.

 

It wasn't until age ten I started working on the mechanics of a rotational, professional, whatever term you prefer swing.  By age twelve he could talk people into a coma breaking down a baseball swing. At fifteen I paid a hitting instructor $1,500 to get my son to do something I had been telling him for two years (go the other way with the middle-out pitch). The only difference in the instruction was he didn't glare back at the paid instructor.

Yeah, I think the general direction is in line with what we always talk about here for the very young... simplify, keep it fun, let some things happen naturally, focus on the do's and not the don'ts, applaud effort, hit it hard/throw it hard, have ice cream.

 

JMO, a few things seemed a bit odd.  The throwing thing... so when you play catch, you're supposed to throw it hard back to a 4 y.o. but ten feet to the side?  Just to not show a bad throwing motion?  Then what?  Do you chase it down every time and hand it to him?  Also, I do think some occasional instruction is OK.  It makes us grown-ups feel important

 

I too thought the throwing comment odd.  I wonder what might have happened had Lantz instructed his daughter?  Most have seen my throw.  She threw that way because she was taught to throw that way.  I recall when she was 12, a former St. Louis Cardinal pitcher asked what she was doing as she was doing a scap loading drill.  He commented that no one does that and it was a bad idea to have her do it.  Ironically, the next year, BB and I were watching the Cardinals go through workouts in spring training and ... yup, they were doing the same drill. 

 

Again, I don't disagree with the initial premise of allowing a child to discover and have fun.  I don't disagree with positive reinforcement.  Still, there is a place for proper instruction.  My daughter just left to give lessons.  She gives a limited number of lessons and so, she sat down with me to go over each hitter she is going to work with tonight.  She doesn't believe in one lesson fits all.  So, we came to agreement on these hitters and she was so excited.  That rubs off on the players as well.  Instruction can be a positive thing.  JMHO!

Cabbage dad- 

 

Two things-  most of the time its done with a tennis or wiffle ball and its thrown directly into the ground from my angle  (I'm 6-4 he's 3-4)  or its up against the house.  

 

Whenever I throw it to him- he's starting to want to try and catch now.  I throw it to him underhand while on one knee to cut off any association.  

I think this, like most things involving teaching children is, individual to each child. I never gave my son a lick of hitting instruction till around 10 or 11 when he started getting really bad bat drag. From the start he loaded, used his hips, had a decent swing all on his own. So I left him alone. My daughter on the other hand swung all arms. So I had to instruct her to use her hips then to load and so forth.

I also threw easy to both of them teaching them to catch. I used a dart like throwing motion. Neither of them throw like that and both have strong arms.

Every child learns differently and at different rates. There is no magic one size fits all teaching method for anything.

Baseballthinktank, did your daughter continue to play or has she realized that she can't throw and not play?  If she is not playing, what role in her not receiving instruction to properly throw factors into to that?  If she is playing, has she learned how, on her own through "throw hard" to throw properly? 

 

Naturally, baseball and softball are two different sports.  However, Baseballthinktank's advice is seriously detrimental to young ladies who want to play softball in college.  While I absolutely disagree with the process, many, if not most, college programs are now having players verbal at 14.  While my daughter had offers at that age, we waited very late in the process with her being 16 for her to verbal.  At that point, we were concerned that she would have opportunities at schools she wanted to attend.  I'd say that the vast majority made comments like, "we have one scholarship remaining and are looking for an exact match to a need for that scholarship."  (Note, typically, that was a 50% offer or less.)  IMO, those players getting those scholarships have been coached early and often in their lives to get them to the point where they are able to verbal and get agreements with schools.  (Yes, I know that those agreements aren't binding until a NLI is signed.)

 The reason she's not playing was because I gave her instruction!  Its one of the primary reasons there's a lot of issues with "Dad/Son".  We ask kids to throw the ball but that's not enough- it needs to be done in a manner in which "we" view as pleasing.  

 

Are you asking me a question or are you talking about your daughter being recruited?  Kinda lost me with the second part.  

The cookie-cutting you touched upon is right on, maybe you didn't watch the video?  I agree with your points- by pointing out an external goal and allowing them to obtain it in their way avoids cookie cutting in the purest form.  

 

The entire process revolves around motor learning and skill acquisition.  As soon as your kids pick up a bat or throw a ball, the process begins.  Its influenced based on what they see, hear and do.  

 

Emulation plays a role, instruction plays a role,etc...  

 

The cookie cutting comes into play once opinions are introduced.  What I view as pleasing would be reflected in others I teach, what you view as pleasing would be influenced in your kids, etc...  

 

Every kid learns differently, moves differently, speaks differently and there is absolutely no "one-way".  Anytime you state an external goal, its clear to the athlete.  Anytime you exclude "how you do it or perceive it being done" in the form of (cues), it can wreac havoc on the nervous system.  

 

Any form of miscommunication, appears in the form of inefficient movement.  Over time, your patterns become ingrained and very stubborn to change.  Especially when introduced to higher levels of competition.  

Ok, you gave your daughter instruction and she no longer plays the game.  Maybe there's cause and effect there, or maybe she just gave up the game because she didn't want to play anymore.  I think it's quite a leap to presume that if you do the opposite (no instruction) your second child will want to continue playing.  It's also possible that years of incorrect technique will be impossible to fix at 13 years old, or will put the kid hopelessly behind his peer group and make getting onto a competitive team at that age very difficult.  I guess you'll find out in 10 or 15 years.  Reminds me a bit of Whole Language though.

There a lot of subtle instruction that occurs naturally. It might be a minor adjustment. No one allows their kid to fail when they see a simple adjustment. My son started hitting off a tee at 18 months. I didn't provide instruction. But I did place him in the correct place. So he would stand the appropriate distance from the tee to swing properly I made a mark for the tee and his feet. The only verbal instruction was "make noise hitting the ball hard."

I gave an example from my daughter's experience as to why your position is detrimental to young ladies who might want to get recruited.  Your position meaning wait until much later to see instruction.  By the age of 14, the top college programs in this country and at both the D-I and D-II level have players verballing and so, those opportunities close fast. 

 

Now keep in mind that most of the young men trying out for the HS team will have been playing for some TB organization in most communities.  So, you are opposed to some aspects of TB per statements in your video.  So, a parent waits for their son to turn 12-13 to make tryout for one of these organizations.  At 14, that young man will be trying out for a very limited number of spots on the freshman team if that HS has a freshman team.  Otherwise, they will have to make the JV  team.  This situation is so tough for all parents.  What is the right thing to do?  In my case, it was to make sure that my child had proper instruction and that when it came time to tryout, she was one of the best and not one of the borderline.  Again, JMHO!

I gave my son plenty of instruction on hitting when he was very young.

The result: He's been a P.O. since his sophomore year of high school.

Great point!  I love the cue, "make noise hitting the ball hard".  Learned association!

Awesome!  Same with my daughter, she got so tired of being around my college teams and being forced to go to the park, plus receive my dreaded instruction that she wants nothing to do with it!  

Thats not really what I was getting too, but I could see how you would interpret it that way.  One of my points inside the video was the frustration and confusion that is involved with instruction (Pleasing).  

 

It's setting up kids to fail and frustrating them, or just going overboard that players end up despising the game, IMO.  

 

As far as the competitive teams, not worried about that at 12 or 13 years old.  

 

The goal for my son will be to enhance the ability side- the skill side will become a focus once he is older.  Could care less about skill level at 12-15 years old.  

There's a conflict here. One is talking about boys and baseball. One is talking about girls and softball. While age sixteen may not be too late to refine a boy's game for him to get to the next level, it's too late for girls. Girls have often verballed by fifteen years old. Since they physically mature sooner they are recruited sooner. For a boy pitcher waiting until sixteen for refinement may actually save his arm. I could see this logic from a pitching coach.

I would agree with that, don't really know enough about girls softball (That's probably a good thing for all the girls out there!!)  

 

However, I still believe that ability comes before skill regardless of gender.  

"The goal for my son will be to enhance the ability side- the skill side will become a focus once he is older.  Could care less about skill level at 12-15 years old."

 

Baseballthinktank,

All I can say is good luck with that.  I admire your passion for this method, but do you have any data to back this method up?  There's been plenty of studies on the value of correct repetition in sports such as golf and tennis, and a growing body of evidence that baseball benefits from the same.  Presumably you do care about skill level at 16+, but I don't see how you get there from here.

I do warn parents of preteens spending a lot of money on lessons they can't purchase talent for their kids. Some of these kids look fairly slick on the small fields. But eventually don't have the talent and physical capability to compete on a full size field.

I guess the issue we all face as parents and instructors is the "correct repetition".  How do we accomplish that?  Who is judging and evaluating "correct".  Even if we are the world's foremost experts how do we teach in a way that its understandable and eliminates perception or confuses the nervous system?  

 

Yes, during college recruiting, I always sought out ability first.  Once kids have the ability, skill is much easier to teach.  However, if the player doesn't possess ability, the skill doesn't really matter.  At the higher levels of college sports and professional, without the ability- skill doesn't get you very far and most times it doesn't even get your foot in the door.  

 

Sure, there are outliers, and crazy feel good stories about the kid who throws 81 and beats the #1 team in the country, but more times than not, it doesn't happen because they will never get the opportunity.  

 

Ability gets your foot in the door and allows more room for error?  Why?  Because of perception, ironic, I know!  

 

Thanks for your reply and I appreciate your kind words.  Great conversation.