http://hardballtalk.nbcsports....fully-ignorant-ever/
I'd quibble with selecting Morris at all, but I understand the position of those who support him. Not voting for Maddux is completely indefensible.
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Ken Gurnick just embarrassed himself and the institution he seeks to protect. He needs to buy himself a clue.
Originally Posted by fenwaysouth:
Ken Gurnick just embarrassed himself and the institution he seeks to protect. He needs to buy himself a clue.
Pretty funny though. The internet is really letting Mr. Gurnick know how stupid he is.
https://twitter.com/search?q=kengurnick&src=tyah
Horrible. Really irritating. Take his ballot away since by not voting he is voting against some qualified candidates.
If Maddux and Biggio used PEDs, they both should get their money back, because they sure didn't get big or even that strong. Seriously, there's never been PED talk about some of these guys.
Morris and Maddux pitched for 9 years in the same 'steroid era'... Ken Gurnick is the new name for fool.
Originally Posted by twotex:
Horrible. Really irritating. Take his ballot away since by not voting he is voting against some qualified candidates.
If Maddux and Biggio used PEDs, they both should get their money back, because they sure didn't get big or even that strong. Seriously, there's never been PED talk about some of these guys.
Steroids won't cause you to do this....
Biggio 74.8%... .02% votes short, unbelieveable.
Congrats to MadDog, Glavine and Big Hurt...
How about Armando Benitez at 0.2% - that means somebody voted for that behemoth. And that person should have their vote taken away.
Mike Piazza not making the cut is garbage, last year was first year and we all know that first year votes are held to a different standard but 2nd time thru...the man deserves to be there - and I am a Phillies fan.
The only legitimate reason for denying a vote to Piazza, IMO, is the suspicion of steroid use. No proof, but a fair amount of suspicion... Plus he's never spoken up to refute those suspicions.
People don't talk about it as much with Biggio, but there are similar suspicions.
In the case of Jeff Bagwell, I think you have to really have your head in the sand as a voter to ignore the obvious. The guy doesn't pass the eye test... Take a look at his physique during his career. Plainly a steroid guy, IMO. I know some say it shouldn't matter but it sure matters to me.
So Ken Gurnick turning in a ballot with none of these guys is not all bad in my mind. And even though I personally can't see NOT voting for Glavine or Thomas, a legitimate case CAN be made for not voting for either guy or not voting them first ballot (personally glad both got in).
But to not vote for Greg Maddux really is indefensible. Gurnick is obviously one of those guys who refuses to give ANY candidate a first year vote to make sure no one ever gets 100%. First year candidates aside, he apparently voted for the one guy he felt deserved it. Not that I agree with it, because to me there are other deserving candidates and to me Maddux is a first ballot guy without any question, but if that's the case then it does explain why the guy's ballot looked like it did... Meaning at least it wasn't just a case of thoughtlessness or not caring about the responsibility and honor of having a vote.
Originally Posted by Soylent Green:
In the case of Jeff Bagwell, I think you have to really have your head in the sand as a voter to ignore the obvious. The guy doesn't pass the eye test... Take a look at his physique during his career. Plainly a steroid guy, IMO.
Your real name isn't Murray Chass, is it?
This made me laugh out loud.
Please read a book or take an entry-level course on anatomy, physiology, and/or kinetics.
http://www.baseballprospectus.....php?articleid=21574
Honestly, the worst part of the HOF voting process is that the writers think the same way you do. There's some sort of moral compass that they feel, for whatever reason, they possess, which enables them to keep the Good Baseball Players out of the Good Baseball Players museum.
Seeing ridiculous statements like the one you just made makes me glad I think deeper than that. "He doesn't pass the eye test." LOL.
Originally Posted by Soylent Green:
The only legitimate reason for denying a vote to Piazza, IMO, is the suspicion of steroid use. No proof, but a fair amount of suspicion... Plus he's never spoken up to refute those suspicions.
People don't talk about it as much with Biggio, but there are similar suspicions.
In the case of Jeff Bagwell, I think you have to really have your head in the sand as a voter to ignore the obvious.
yes but almost every guy for a generation could be argued as such, the fact of the matter is why couldn't you argue the Maddox or Glavine were users? Not saying they were just that it is unknown and forever will be. The ERA is tained forever but at the end of it you judge a man on what is known.
Frank Thomas and Jim Thome are 2 guys that might have suffered the most...unless they were using as well. We will never know.
And, for the record, performance enhancing drugs have been in the game since the 1950s (perhaps longer, that's the earliest record). Steroids, specifically, have been known in the game since the late '60s. Should every single person in the HOF be questioned as to their use of such substances? Mickey Mantle sat out part of the 1961 season and playoffs because of an infection from a shot of amphetamines. Should Mickey Mantle not be in the HOF?
I can't wait until these writers get off their ridiculous high horses. The museum isn't about them, it's about the best baseball players ever. This entire process is a joke.
Sorry for the rant.
Originally Posted by J H:
Originally Posted by Soylent Green:
In the case of Jeff Bagwell, I think you have to really have your head in the sand as a voter to ignore the obvious. The guy doesn't pass the eye test... Take a look at his physique during his career. Plainly a steroid guy, IMO.
Your real name isn't Murray Chass, is it?
This made me laugh out loud.
Please read a book or take an entry-level course on anatomy, physiology, and/or kinetics.
http://www.baseballprospectus.....php?articleid=21574
Honestly, the worst part of the HOF voting process is that the writers think the same way you do. There's some sort of moral compass that they feel, for whatever reason, they possess, which enables them to keep the Good Baseball Players out of the Good Baseball Players museum.
Seeing ridiculous statements like the one you just made makes me glad I think deeper than that. "He doesn't pass the eye test." LOL.
Sounds like somebody's still smarting from having their sabremetrics WPA argument taken apart in a different thread. Keep "laughing out loud" JH! Your pal - Murray
Originally Posted by Soylent Green:
People don't talk about it as much with Biggio, but there are similar suspicions.
What? First I heard Biggio was suspected of PED's. Similar suspicions to Piazza? Maybe you could post a link.
The suspicion of Biggio basically boils down to Caminit used, Bagwell was really big and was Caminiti's teammate, and Bagwell and Biggio both start with the letter B.
Originally Posted by Go44dad:
Originally Posted by Soylent Green:
People don't talk about it as much with Biggio, but there are similar suspicions.
What? First I heard Biggio was suspected of PED's. Similar suspicions to Piazza? Maybe you could post a link.
I'm not saying Biggio did or didn't use steroids. Just saying there is some talk of it... always has been. Don't take my word for it, google it. My point is that this is a big part of the reason Biggio hasn't gotten in yet despite 3,000 hits...
Originally Posted by Soylent Green:
Originally Posted by Go44dad:
Originally Posted by Soylent Green:
People don't talk about it as much with Biggio, but there are similar suspicions.
What? First I heard Biggio was suspected of PED's. Similar suspicions to Piazza? Maybe you could post a link.
I'm not saying Biggio did or didn't use steroids.
This specific sentence is part of the problem. There is no actual evidence Biggio, or Maddux, or almost everyone else actually used steroids, but people casually throw around the "I'm not saying he did it, I'm just asking questions (or saying other people are)".
This problem isn't specific to steroids in baseball, of course. It's also the lowest common denominator in a lot of political discourse, for instance, and it's equally reprehensible there as well.
I don't get how Biggio almost made it. He's no hoffer by any stretch. He's a lifetime .281 hitter and never hit 26 hrs once. Craig Biggio isn't one of them. I won't even get into it with Biggio because it would be a waste of my time.Jack Morris? No. He's no hoffer either and the voters got it right on this one. Morris was a great pitcher and knew how to pitch to the scoreboard which should justify his high ERA but here I go justifying his stats so he doesn't deserve to go in.When I think of great hof players, Very good player but a hoffer? Give me a break.
Maddux is legit so I don't get this guy's logic.
With that being said, the HOF is not a place anymore that great players are inducted to since almost anyone gets in these days instead of immortals of the game.
The only other player who I see who is a legitimate hoffer in the near future is Pedro Martinez. His body of work, dominance and big game moxie make him a no-brainer first time hoffer when his time comes up. Nor these other players where you have to dissect their stats to justify their merits. You don't do this with Pedro Martinez. Right off the bat, you think great pitcher and the best in the game among his peers.
Just because you're a very good player and had a handful of great seasons don't make a hoffer.. Great players that dominate and are better than anybody else year in and year out for most of their careers are hoffers.
Even without the roids, Barry Bonds would've been this player. He shoulda played It straight.
I read a comment on Twitter today that Armando Benitez, Jacque Jones, & Kenny Rogers each received one vote for the HOF...yet 16 of the writers did not vote for Greg Maddux, arguably the best "Pitcher" during his era.
I agree with JH...The entire HOF process is a joke.
Originally Posted by bsbl247:
I read a comment on Twitter today that Armando Benitez, Jacque Jones, & Kenny Rogers each received one vote for the HOF...yet 16 of the writers did not vote for Greg Maddux, arguably the best "Pitcher" during his era.
I agree with JH...The entire HOF process is a joke.
The steroid era is really going to bring out a lot of hypocrisy and inconsistencies on how players are voted.
Originally Posted by J H:
And, for the record, performance enhancing drugs have been in the game since the 1950s (perhaps longer, that's the earliest record). Steroids, specifically, have been known in the game since the late '60s. Should every single person in the HOF be questioned as to their use of such substances? Mickey Mantle sat out part of the 1961 season and playoffs because of an infection from a shot of amphetamines. Should Mickey Mantle not be in the HOF?
I can't wait until these writers get off their ridiculous high horses. The museum isn't about them, it's about the best baseball players ever. This entire process is a joke.
Sorry for the rant.
I'm with you. When multiple players in the best 10 of all time aren't end let's call it a popularity contest not a best player.
We'll have Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz, & Gary Sheffield eligible next year. Randy Johnson is a "Slam Dunk" and Pedro will likely get in as well.
Craig Biggio will get the needed 75% and it wouldn't surprise me if Mike Piazza does too. Personally, I believe that Barry Bonds & Roger Clemens deserve to be in the HOF regardless of the PED allegations, nothing has ever been proven. For the record, I am not a Bonds fan.
Originally Posted by zombywoof:
I don't get how Biggio almost made it. He's no hoffer by any stretch. He's a lifetime .281 hitter and never hit 26 hrs once. Craig Biggio isn't one of them.
696 people have played at least 60% of their games at 2B in the history of baseball, 144 of them have played 1000 games at 2B. Biggio is, roughly, the 12th best of those players. 17 of them are already in the HOF. There are only 3 players arguably better than Biggio who meet that 1000 game qualification and aren't in the HOF (and are or were eligible), Randolph, Grich and Whitaker (roughly in order of increasing qualification for the Hall).
Whitaker should absolutely be in. Grich should almost certainly be in, and I wouldn't argue against inducting Randolph, though his case is the one most reliant on defensive stats, which I accept are the least reliable facet of the stats we have on these guys. FWIW, Biggio's case is almost entirely built on his offensive abilities (he's roughly the 6th best offensive 2B ever), where he has substantial leads over the other 3, which is why he's almost certainly going to go in and none of the other 3 got any real consideration.
Originally Posted by bsbl247:
We'll have Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz, & Gary Sheffield eligible next year. Randy Johnson is a "Slam Dunk" and Pedro will likely get in as well.
Craig Biggio will get the needed 75% and it wouldn't surprise me if Mike Piazza does too. Personally, I believe that Barry Bonds & Roger Clemens deserve to be in the HOF regardless of the PED allegations, nothing has ever been proven. For the record, I am not a Bonds fan.
Agree - Big Unit and Pedro probably in for sure ad Smoltz highly likely too. Steroid tag keeps Sheffield out I think.
I'm not saying Sheffield did or didn't use Steroids...
Didn't check Randy Johnson up next year already. He should get in.
Originally Posted by jacjacatk:
Originally Posted by zombywoof:
I don't get how Biggio almost made it. He's no hoffer by any stretch. He's a lifetime .281 hitter and never hit 26 hrs once. Craig Biggio isn't one of them.
696 people have played at least 60% of their games at 2B in the history of baseball, 144 of them have played 1000 games at 2B. Biggio is, roughly, the 12th best of those players. 17 of them are already in the HOF. There are only 3 players arguably better than Biggio who meet that 1000 game qualification and aren't in the HOF (and are or were eligible), Randolph, Grich and Whitaker (roughly in order of increasing qualification for the Hall).
Whitaker should absolutely be in. Grich should almost certainly be in, and I wouldn't argue against inducting Randolph, though his case is the one most reliant on defensive stats, which I accept are the least reliable facet of the stats we have on these guys. FWIW, Biggio's case is almost entirely built on his offensive abilities (he's roughly the 6th best offensive 2B ever), where he has substantial leads over the other 3, which is why he's almost certainly going to go in and none of the other 3 got any real consideration.
While you make a good case for Biggio statistically, I just don't see him as an all-time great. His offensive numbers just don't jump out and scream hoffer.
If I were voting for the HOF, I would have a short list for the select few who are true hall of famers.
Originally Posted by zombywoof:
Originally Posted by jacjacatk:
Originally Posted by zombywoof:
I don't get how Biggio almost made it. He's no hoffer by any stretch. He's a lifetime .281 hitter and never hit 26 hrs once. Craig Biggio isn't one of them.
696 people have played at least 60% of their games at 2B in the history of baseball, 144 of them have played 1000 games at 2B. Biggio is, roughly, the 12th best of those players. 17 of them are already in the HOF. There are only 3 players arguably better than Biggio who meet that 1000 game qualification and aren't in the HOF (and are or were eligible), Randolph, Grich and Whitaker (roughly in order of increasing qualification for the Hall).
Whitaker should absolutely be in. Grich should almost certainly be in, and I wouldn't argue against inducting Randolph, though his case is the one most reliant on defensive stats, which I accept are the least reliable facet of the stats we have on these guys. FWIW, Biggio's case is almost entirely built on his offensive abilities (he's roughly the 6th best offensive 2B ever), where he has substantial leads over the other 3, which is why he's almost certainly going to go in and none of the other 3 got any real consideration.
While you make a good case for Biggio statistically, I just don't see him as an all-time great. His offensive numbers just don't jump out and scream hoffer.
If I were voting for the HOF, I would have a short list for the select few who are true hall of famers.
I don't think you understand how little offense there's historically been at 2B. You've got Hornsby and Collins, a fairly significant gap to Morgan and Lajoie, and then a larger dropoff to Gehringer/Biggio, another to Alomar/Whitaker, and another notch to Grich/Sandberg/Kent/Frisch/Randolph.
Adjusting for era is probably enough to make Morgan the best overall, though I really wouldn't quibble, and it's likewise enough to boost Biggio over Gehringer and maybe even Lajoie, but realistically I don't even think you need to make this adjustment. If your HOF doesn't include the 6th best hitter ever at a position, a guys who's:
16th all-time in games played
12th in at bats
10th in PA
15th in runs scored
21st in hits
33rd in total bases
5th in doubles
65th in BB
66th in SB
32nd in XBH
2nd in HBP
18th in times on base
you're advocating for one of the smallest HOF ever.
Suspicion of steroids is not enough. It's guilty until proven innocent. Votes should on there's proof or there isn't.
It will be interesting to see what happens when Ortiz is eligible if he gets to 500 homers. His positive test was a volunteered test where the results were not supposed to be made public. Plus he never had the opportunity to have the situation researched. He wasn't told what he tested positive for.
I believe Biggio will eventually get in. He made have his 3000 hits based on longevity. But he managed to stay in the game long enough to get them.
jacjacatk,Im with you on this one. Biggio certainly is HOF worthy. His BA is a little on the low side but the Mick finished below 300 also. Biggio 3000 hits should trump a lot of things.
JH I couldn't agree with any more on your take of the HOF voting. You hit the nail on the head. Its about the best baseball players ever. Though he definitely used Barry Bonds was just awesome when he was right. Just really super tough to get out. No drug can give you talent. Please don't take this as condoning, just saying.
Originally Posted by oldmanmoses:
JH I couldn't agree with any more on your take of the HOF voting. You hit the nail on the head. Its about the best baseball players ever. Though he definitely used Barry Bonds was just awesome when he was right. Just really super tough to get out. No drug can give you talent. Please don't take this as condoning, just saying.
Agree 100%. I'm an advocate for Barry Bonds being inducted into the Hall of Fame.
What part of 3060 hits is debateable...? He is 21st on the All-Time hit list...
668 Doubles (#5 All-Time), 55 Triples, 291 Home Runs... 7-Time All-Star... 5-Time Silver Slugger, 4-Time Gold Glover...
In total, 28 players have reached the 3,000 hit mark in MLB history (less than 9.2% of the 306 HOF members have 3000+ hits)...
EVERY one of that 3000+ hit list is in the Hall except for Rose and Palmiero... & Biggio, now...
Biggio had more hits than: Rickey Henderson, Rod Carew, Lou Brock, Rafael Palmeiro, Wade Boggs, Al Kaline & Roberto Clemente...
Originally Posted by Bolts-Coach-PR:
668 Doubles (#5 All-Time),
Bolts coach, I guess the issue is he didn't pass Cobb, Musial, Rose or Speaker in doubles.
My favorite Biggio tidbit...In a year where he led the league in plate appearances, he did not ground into a double play.
Eye test? Is that anything like a juror in a murder case saying, I can tell this guy is guilty just by looking at him. LOL! Congrats to Maddux, Glavine and The Big Hurt. All well deserving.
The biggest problem isn't which player belongs and which doesn't belong. The problem is with who is voting! Obviously there are voters that should be eliminated. Like the 16 that didn't vote for Maddux. Do those 16 even follow baseball?
Personally I think the best players should be in the Hall of Fame. Barry Larkin said yesterday that he thinks those that used PEDs do not belong in the Hall of Fame. So when baseball allowed it for all those years, they were saying, you can use, but you will never be inducted into the Hall of Fame with such outstanding characters as Ty Cobb! If you were in the HOF wouldn't you want the very best in there? It's not about character, it's about who used PEDs. Even worse, it is about who someone thinks used PEDs.
Cheating??? How about the well known spit ball pitchers that carved out a Hall of Fame career? Unlike PEDs that actually was against baseball rules.
I don't advocate the use of PEDs, but they were allowed at the time! Obviously it helped many players to hit more home runs and set records. But are we suppose to think those home runs didn't happen? And there is NO reason that anyone should suspect Biggio of using PEDs. If so, we have to suspect everyone in the era.
Several of the players that hit the most home runs will not be in the HOF. The guy with the most hits, one of the greatest RHPs of all time, not in the HOF.
If you agree or not, at least with the PED issue there is a valid reason for keeping players out of the HOF.
But when I see a Hall of Fame with players like Bill Mazerowski enshrined and voters not voting for Craig Biggio, I have to wonder what is going on. I understand that Biggio's numbers relate to longevity. So what? Longevity is part of greatness. Many in the HOF are there because they had long productive careers. Many of them fall far short of the numbers Craig Biggio put up. Not to mention he did it while playing three different positions.
Furthermore, I happen to know Craig Biggio and he scores very highly when it comes to character. If he isn't in the HOF they should eliminate half of those who are. Please compare Biggio to Mazerowski. Nothing against Mazerowski, he was a great player, but something is wrong!
The thing that is wrong is the voters! Obviously most voters are qualified and do a good job. But those that prove how stupid they are need to be eliminated. I'm talking about those that vote for players that have never done anything worth getting a HOF vote.
Anyone who voted for Armando Benítez, JT Snow, Jacque Jones & Kenny Rogers should be stripped of their voting priviliges...
BTW, Biggio also stole more than 400 bases During his career. And only 17 players in history were on base more times.
One last thing about Biggio. He was the ONLY all star ever that played three up the middle positions. C/2B/CF
Biggio is the only player in the history of baseball with 3000 hits, 600 doubles, 400 stolen bases, and 250 home runs...
Still NOT in HOF...