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Yuba City High JV baseball involved in brawl

coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by standballdad:
quote:
Originally posted by speakup:
Actually, that is what I do so on this particular subject I know what I am talking about. These studies were actually referring to exactly this type of bullying in addition to coaches bullying their own teams to 'supposedly' increase performance. We may not know why these things seem to affect some kids more than others but it has been determined by those that have studied it to be so prevalent that schools have laws in place clearly stating that it does NOT have to be over a period of time to be bullying. Once again, the pitcher should not have reacted the way he did and the players should not have participated but I specialize in this one area it IS considered bullying.


Where was the intimidation and fear you are speaking of. He was saying things about his mother that the pitcher did not appreciate. Your reference to the study talks about coaches that yell and scream at there own players to try and enhance performance. I still do not see the connection you are trying to make here. It was a baseball game that had a lot of jawing from BOTH sides and nothing more. Things got out of hand and now people need to deal with the consequences. Your painting this picture of bullying and it just does not hold water with me. Sorry


I'm with standballdad on this one - those studies don't fit the situation at hand. I think there is merit to those studies but just not here.
S speakupMember
You don't have to agree with me, this isn't actually an arguing point. I have tried really hard to not get angry but I have to admit these last few have made me close. I really don't care one iota if the 'data' holds water with you, or if you believe what was done was bullying or not, because what 'you' think really doesn't matter here at all. All that matters, is how the player felt about what was said. That's all that EVER comes into play when we are dealing with bullies. This was not ONE COMMENT from the coach, this was multiple comments, over and over throughout a game. This has become such a problem in sports that most clubs and leagues have codes of conduct not only explaining that yes, taunting opposing teams is considered to be bullying and is grounds for dismissal. I understand how hard it is for people to grasp this thinking, if I didn't deal with it every day I would probably call bs too. I'm a coach too,and I started coaching back when it was ok to intimidate players a little to get an edge. Shoot, I'd prefer to do it now if I didn't know better. It's a lot more work to coach now in schools than it used to be...
WklinkWklink500+ posts
First off, don't get angry if people don't agree with your assertations.

Secondly, I am not sure you completely understand what cortisol does and how it works in the body. Cortisol (hydrocortisone) is a normal hormone that is released from the adrenal glands. It is a regulatory hormone that is increased in cases of stress, hence the term stress hormone. When under stress the body increases the level of Cortisol which also allows for the increase of other hormones like adrenaline (epinephrine). It is highly associated with the 'fight or flight' mechanism.

What I reject is the fact that you are asserting that the coach's comments about this kids mom is some sort of bullying that justified his actions. Whether you are trying to or not you are making excuses for his behavior. ANY person that gets angry releases the same cortisol. In fact a person that gets scared, gets hurt or even gets sexually aroused releases cortisol.

You can't use this as an excuse for bad behavior. The kid flat out got mad because the other team's coach was badmouthing his mom. Yes, the other team's coach should be severely disciplined for his actions but that doesn't justify what the kid did. This whole cortisol/temporary loss of control thing has been attempted as an excuse for things like road rage, crimes of passion and other crimes where the person lost control because they let their passions get control of them.

The thing never should have gotten to the point where the kid went off. It is too bad that the adults in the entire sequence did nothing or even worse, did the wrong things during the buildup to the incident. But lets not go out and label every kid that gets mad as some kind of victim.
AntzDadAntzDad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Wklink:
What I reject is the fact that you are asserting that the coach's comments about this kids mom is some sort of bullying that justified his actions.


If it were a series of comments, it's definitely defined as bullying, these days. You can reject justified, or not. Did the coach say anything else about the kid's mom after he got the ball thrown at him? Smile
S speakupMember
I actually am really not justifying the players actions, my point is merely that the coach should be disciplined more than he has been and in my opinion is liable under school bullying regulations. When referring to bullying it wasn't actually the 'one' comment from the coach that I was isolating as the 'bully' moment. The actions from the first base coach throughout the entire game would be defined as bullying. The comment towards the players mother was after it had escalated to where it never should had been allowed to go. He had already addressed the opposing players, the pitcher included prior to this and taunted them.
Until adults model the proper behavior and TEACH the kids how to behave the right way, by example, not force, the kids nowadays will never learn the proper way to act. From what I see on a daily basis, we are failing miserably.
WklinkWklink500+ posts
You won't get any argument from me about that speakup.

This was an avoidable event and what is sad is that the adults in this situation continously did the wrong things. There is that old swiss cheese model (I used this in a similar thread concerning this) and by doing the wrong thing the adults allowed the holes to line up allowing this event to occur.

The coach should be fired. He is an adult and if he has a problem with a mom on the field there are ways to solve it without getting into a shouting match on the field. The Umpires should have 1. Stopped the mother from interfering in the game and 2. Stopped the coaches from taking it to the next level. The Head Coaches of both teams should have gone out and solved the problem before it got out of control. The HC of our team will flat out tell a parent to leave if they are disruptive. There is no reason that the head coach should allow an assistant to get into a shouting match on the field.
shortnquickshortnquick500+ posts
I know I and many on this board have met, heard and dealt with the obnoxious mom, the ignorant coach and the ill-tempered pitcher as described in this thread. Not them properly but many like them. They are all wrong and all at fault, none more or less than the other. Each of their actions were over the top. None should worry about the pill the other has to swallow over it, just swallow your own pill, learn from it and move on.
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
http://carmichael.patch.com/ar...-brawl#photo-9493698

Apparently the Del Campo coach Alan Case, lawyered up before the investigation by his school administration. He asked the parents and players not to make statements concerning the incident until the investigation was concluded.

So Del Campo invokes their Fifth Ammendment Right against self-incrimination.

The result is that the administration used only the video tape in making their determination.

News 10 reports that Del Campo coach Alan Case said that his players were "attacked" by Yuba City High.

Del Campo's athletic director Gary Summerhays had only a few things to say about the incident, explaining the video should speak for itself. Though Summerhays doesn't believe his school's team was responsible for instigating the fight, he does believe the school's principal Vera Vaccaro will be issuing disciplinary recourse.

"If it isn't on the tape, it never happened."

I didn't think my opinion of the Del Campo coaching staff, parents, players and adminstrators could have sunk lower, but it has.
Last edited by Quincy
G gotwood4sale10,000+ posts
.

    "If it isn't on the tape, it never happened."

And to really heighten the drama it has been reported that Rose Mary Wood's granddaughter has been seen coming and going from Del Campo HS. Hmmm?


"She was running, running, mind you with a pair of scissors!"......"Yeah...her 18½ minutes of snipping is done...they won't have Coach Case to kick around anymore!"

.
Last edited by gotwood4sale
NoReplayNoReplay100+ posts
See?
So freaking typical of school administrators.
The kids don't have a union so screw them.
Let's make ourselves look good at their expense.
Meanwhile Coach Coward goes on to victimize still more kids with impunity.

Still don't think they are victims? This is classic. Bully goes free. Kid that snaps and fights back gets expelled. Must make you all proud to be educators huh?

And please. Enough with "what a horrible crime lock them up" with respect to the kids. Nobody got hurt. Coach Coward was mugging for the video camera at the fence before the pitcher was off the ground. Any hockey game in the world this might generate offsetting fighting penalties with the catcher out of the game for third man in then "let's get the game going".

The only major crime that should be punished outside the lines is Coach Coward and his admin is going to let him skate.

Can't wait to see all the high school coaches and apologists come in with the high fives. Maybe they can make a music video this time called "screw em stew em kickim outa school"
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NoReplay:
See?
So freaking typical of school administrators.
The kids don't have a union so screw them.
Let's make ourselves look good at their expense.
Meanwhile Coach Coward goes on to victimize still more kids with impunity.

Still don't think they are victims? This is classic. Bully goes free. Kid that snaps and fights back gets expelled. Must make you all proud to be educators huh?

And please. Enough with "what a horrible crime lock them up" with respect to the kids. Nobody got hurt. Coach Coward was mugging for the video camera at the fence before the pitcher was off the ground. Any hockey game in the world this might generate offsetting fighting penalties with the catcher out of the game for third man in then "let's get the game going".

The only major crime that should be punished outside the lines is Coach Coward and his admin is going to let him skate.

Can't wait to see all the high school coaches and apologists come in with the high fives. Maybe they can make a music video this time called "screw em stew em kickim outa school"


You **** right I'm proud to be an educator because I refuse to let this guy be the determining factor for people like you to judge millions of people who do the opposite of this idiot. I don't blame him for getting a lawyer because that is his constitutional right as an American citizen. Why didn't the Yuba City players get a lawyer is a better question?

You are a troll because nobody has said this coach is innocent or has even defended him. What part of that do you not understand? I don't know what's happend to you in your past to turn you sour on everything but get over it. Every single person involved with this from coaches to players need to be punished. I don't like the "use a hammer to kill a fly" type of punishment but this situation isn't a fly. It's a huge problem and if you don't hold kids accountable they turn into idiots like the coach. I've seen so many times it makes me sick so stop contributing to the problem.

The coach got off lightly, and you won't find anybody but him and his lawyer to say otherwise. He should be punished severely but sadly he wasn't.

Get a clue dude.
shortnquickshortnquick500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
.

I want coach2709 on my team.

.


Me 2.


quote:
Originally posted by NoReplay:
Can't wait to see all the high school coaches and apologists come in with the high fives. Maybe they can make a music video this time called "screw em stew em kickim outa school"


What kind on mind comes up with a thought like that?
NoReplayNoReplay100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by coach2709:
quote:
Originally posted by NoReplay:
See?
So freaking typical of school administrators.
The kids don't have a union so screw them.
Let's make ourselves look good at their expense.
Meanwhile Coach Coward goes on to victimize still more kids with impunity.

Still don't think they are victims? This is classic. Bully goes free. Kid that snaps and fights back gets expelled. Must make you all proud to be educators huh?

And please. Enough with "what a horrible crime lock them up" with respect to the kids. Nobody got hurt. Coach Coward was mugging for the video camera at the fence before the pitcher was off the ground. Any hockey game in the world this might generate offsetting fighting penalties with the catcher out of the game for third man in then "let's get the game going".

The only major crime that should be punished outside the lines is Coach Coward and his admin is going to let him skate.

Can't wait to see all the high school coaches and apologists come in with the high fives. Maybe they can make a music video this time called "screw em stew em kickim outa school"


You **** right I'm proud to be an educator because I refuse to let this guy be the determining factor for people like you to judge millions of people who do the opposite of this idiot.

You are tho if the rest of you in the education system let him continue to do this

I don't blame him for getting a lawyer because that is his constitutional right as an American citizen. Why didn't the Yuba City players get a lawyer is a better question?

Gee I don't know maybe because he doesnt have an income or a teachers union to pay for the lawyer? Maybe because the school board policy of no tolerance towards kids but unlimited tolerance for the coach makes it a huge uphill fight for one not the other?


You are a troll because nobody has said this coach is innocent or has even defended him. What part of that do you not understand? I don't know what's happend to you in your past to turn you sour on everything but get over it. Every single person involved with this from coaches to players need to be punished. I don't like the "use a hammer to kill a fly" type of punishment but this situation isn't a fly. It's a huge problem and if you don't hold kids accountable they turn into idiots like the coach. I've seen so many times it makes me sick so stop contributing to the problem.

Read the posts again; a lot of them say what the coach did was no big deal.
The coach got off lightly, and you won't find anybody but him and his lawyer to say otherwise. He should be punished severely but sadly he wasn't.

Get a clue dude.
Last edited by NoReplay
I iheartbb1,000+ posts
I would very much like to know what 'expulsion'means these days...in the school districts that are involved. Does it mean the students cannot return to their school, ever-or are they allowed to return the next school year? What are their choices for education once an expulsion takes place?

What do you think the consequences should have been for those involved?
Coach - Player - Parent.
I would like to hear some alternative suggestions that might actually bring a teaching moment into the discussion. Maybe some mandatory counseling, or anger management class. Who out there has something useful and creative to offer? I am just not too keen on kicking kids out of school. Thoughts?
shortnquickshortnquick500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by iheartbb:
What do you think the consequences should have been for those involved?
Coach - Player - Parent.


Coach
*Arrest and charge him with Disorderly Conduct
*Fired as Coach

Parent
*Arrest and charge her with Disorderly Conduct
*A No Trespass Agreement at the complex she was at.

Player
*Expelled, meaning he is done and gone from the school he was at. School to re-evaluate taking him back into the school based on future behavior if they wanted to.
*Arrest and charged with Disorderly Conduct and Battery (if he made contact with the coach) or Assault if he did not physically hit him.

Or

Just beat them all with the Moron Stick
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
quote:
You are tho if the rest of you in the education system let him continue to do this


You know you are 100% correct on this one. In fact I'm going to drive out to California Monday and fire him myself. In fact since the vast majority of educators are probably embarassed over his actions I may have a possee to accompany me.

This is probably one of the dumbest statements I've ever read in my life. Just because his administration has no backbone doesn't mean the rest of that area is lacking or California is lacking or the nation is lacking. Once again don't judge all of us over one idiot.

quote:
Gee I don't know maybe because he doesnt have an income or a teachers union to pay for the lawyer? Maybe because the school board policy of no tolerance towards kids but unlimited tolerance for the coach makes it a huge uphill fight for one not the other?


Once again you are correct - poor people have never had legal representation in situations like this. You will never find a lawyer who won't do this pro-bono or recieve a percentage of an award in a civil suit. I don't know how I would ever forget a fact like this. Then again we have no idea if the kid's family is rich, poor or in the middle.

Where do you even get the second statement from? First I'm no fan of zero tolerance policies because they do use a blanket to punish people but do you know why they exist? Schools have lost so many court cases where students / families have sued school systems over their policies. It's easier to adopt a zero tolerance policy and punish kids for bringing finger nail clippers to school on accident. Once again get a clue.

quote:
Read the posts again; a lot of them say what the coach did was no big deal.


I've read the whole thread so could you point out exactly who said what the coach did was no big deal or do you just want to stick with general statements with no basis. Maybe I accidentally looked over one or fifty according to you (yes that was a sarcastic statement).

iheartbb to anser your question as to what other consequences I would do

Coach - if this is the first time he's been in any trouble at the school teaching or coaching I would suspend him the rest of the season. He would have to show me he has learned from this and show remorse before he could coach next year. If he's had other incidences as a teacher / coach then he's definitely fired as a coach and I would look into removing him as a teacher as well.

Players - if this is the first time he's been in any trouble in baseball, other sports and school I would suspend him from the team for a significant period of time (depends on how much of the season is left and number of games - it's gotta hurt). I would highly suggest he does some sort of community service work to show some remorse and learn a lesson with a weekly meeting with me (as the AD and / or principal) to discuss why it was wrong and what other ways to handle these situations. If they had other incidences in school they would be removed from the team and suspended from school for a period of time. If they want back on the team next year do the community service and weekly meetings.

Parent - if I'm the AD at the field I would step in front of her and ask her to leave the field peacefully. If she refuses I would warn her if she doesn't comply then the poice would be contacted. If the police show up I would ask them to escort her off the field and explain to her all the possible scenarios where she could get into trouble legally if she doesn't calm down. If she doesn't calm down then I would have her arrested.

If the parent is from my school I would call her in to meet with me and the principal. We would explain that if she wants her son to participate on our school teams then that means there is a level of behavior that is expected from her. I would explain we want her son to be on our teams and have her attend the games to watch / support him the next step would be to ban her from home events and have a warning issued to the teams we play to look out for her at their venues. If she continues to embarass the school then we would go to the board of education and see if we can get her son banned from all extracurricular events.

Head coaches - if I'm the AD of the school who had the idiot coach I would pull the head coach in and have a very serious discussion as to why he didn't tell him to shut up. Not sure if there is anything else I would do but it would depend on what he said.

If I'm the AD of the school who started the fight I would meet with the head coach and ask him why he didn't stop the game and force someone to shut that guy up or walk off the field. I would gladly pay any penalty fee for a forfeit if it meant my team didn't end up in an altercation such as this.

I'm a big supporter of second chances because in my life I've been given some. Maybe I didn't deserve them but I can honestly say I learned my lesson. People deserve this chance in all situations but if they have been given a chance and didn't learn then drop a hammer on them. Maybe they will learn that way.
NoReplayNoReplay100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by coach2709:
quote:
You are tho if the rest of you in the education system let him continue to do this


You know you are 100% correct on this one. In fact I'm going to drive out to California Monday and fire him myself. In fact since the vast majority of educators are probably embarassed over his actions I may have a possee to accompany me.

This is probably one of the dumbest statements I've ever read in my life. Just because his administration has no backbone doesn't mean the rest of that area is lacking or California is lacking or the nation is lacking. Once again don't judge all of us over one idiot.

quote:
Gee I don't know maybe because he doesnt have an income or a teachers union to pay for the lawyer? Maybe because the school board policy of no tolerance towards kids but unlimited tolerance for the coach makes it a huge uphill fight for one not the other?


Once again you are correct - poor people have never had legal representation in situations like this. You will never find a lawyer who won't do this pro-bono or recieve a percentage of an award in a civil suit. I don't know how I would ever forget a fact like this. Then again we have no idea if the kid's family is rich, poor or in the middle.

Where do you even get the second statement from? First I'm no fan of zero tolerance policies because they do use a blanket to punish people but do you know why they exist? Schools have lost so many court cases where students / families have sued school systems over their policies. It's easier to adopt a zero tolerance policy and punish kids for bringing finger nail clippers to school on accident. Once again get a clue.

quote:
Read the posts again; a lot of them say what the coach did was no big deal.


I've read the whole thread so could you point out exactly who said what the coach did was no big deal or do you just want to stick with general statements with no basis. Maybe I accidentally looked over one or fifty according to you (yes that was a sarcastic statement).

iheartbb to anser your question as to what other consequences I would do

Coach - if this is the first time he's been in any trouble at the school teaching or coaching I would suspend him the rest of the season. He would have to show me he has learned from this and show remorse before he could coach next year. If he's had other incidences as a teacher / coach then he's definitely fired as a coach and I would look into removing him as a teacher as well.

Players - if this is the first time he's been in any trouble in baseball, other sports and school I would suspend him from the team for a significant period of time (depends on how much of the season is left and number of games - it's gotta hurt). I would highly suggest he does some sort of community service work to show some remorse and learn a lesson with a weekly meeting with me (as the AD and / or principal) to discuss why it was wrong and what other ways to handle these situations. If they had other incidences in school they would be removed from the team and suspended from school for a period of time. If they want back on the team next year do the community service and weekly meetings.

Parent - if I'm the AD at the field I would step in front of her and ask her to leave the field peacefully. If she refuses I would warn her if she doesn't comply then the poice would be contacted. If the police show up I would ask them to escort her off the field and explain to her all the possible scenarios where she could get into trouble legally if she doesn't calm down. If she doesn't calm down then I would have her arrested.

If the parent is from my school I would call her in to meet with me and the principal. We would explain that if she wants her son to participate on our school teams then that means there is a level of behavior that is expected from her. I would explain we want her son to be on our teams and have her attend the games to watch / support him the next step would be to ban her from home events and have a warning issued to the teams we play to look out for her at their venues. If she continues to embarass the school then we would go to the board of education and see if we can get her son banned from all extracurricular events.

Head coaches - if I'm the AD of the school who had the idiot coach I would pull the head coach in and have a very serious discussion as to why he didn't tell him to shut up. Not sure if there is anything else I would do but it would depend on what he said.

If I'm the AD of the school who started the fight I would meet with the head coach and ask him why he didn't stop the game and force someone to shut that guy up or walk off the field. I would gladly pay any penalty fee for a forfeit if it meant my team didn't end up in an altercation such as this.

I'm a big supporter of second chances because in my life I've been given some. Maybe I didn't deserve them but I can honestly say I learned my lesson. People deserve this chance in all situations but if they have been given a chance and didn't learn then drop a hammer on them. Maybe they will learn that way.


Well, actually I agree with all of that.
I apologize for letting my anger over the specific case bleed over into the general.
S speakupMember
After reading over all the posts in this thread I am impressed by some of the intelligent and thoughtful responses given. I think it is unfortunate that this is one situation that will eventually be chalked up to experience.A lot of kids will be punished excessively while quite a few deserving punishment will receive none. From all indications, the first base coach will remain in his position as well.
I've been hesitant to mention prior to this but I know all of the parties in this altercation and have had extensive contact with both sides. The parent that everybody sees as 'out of control' on the Yuba City side, who is out on the field is not how it appears. I have coached one of her children, my husband another, and have been in situations where I would expect that behavior to show itself if it was a character trait. Her child was being hit, and nobody was intervening and it made her angry, and then he turned and started fighting back and she decided to go get him because nobody would. Right or wrong, I would have done the same. The YC coach I have worked with and respect and he is a good man. I lived in the Del Campo school area for many years and moved away before my children started school because I didn't want them to go to Del Campo High. They have an athletics at any cost attitude and the parents I know, including the coach in question, believe that winning is everything, and will do anything to win. Football season is riddled with fights and they are the norm, and trash talk in baseball is 'no big deal.' They talk big about 'protecting their own' and have shown that in the past few weeks. From the second this brawl happened I knew it would be brushed under the DC rug, they can't afford the negative publicity. They are in the middle of a very large "Field of Dreams" project, headed up by their very own AD head. Even those that know what really happened that day will never admit it because they don't want to be the ones to turn on their school. I know, I couldn't live that way anymore, so I moved to Yuba City, where boys who are nowhere on tape and have everything to lose admit that they threw a punch and get kicked off of the baseball team and suspended. Yet Yuba City is the school that should be ashamed? I don't think so.
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