12U studs

Todays 12 yo studs are often tommoroms duds.
You are right those are stories.
Most MLB players will tell you it wasn't all smooth sailing. Many cut from teams etc. I can't think of any 12yo studs here that went anywhere. Maybe a couple but not many.

The kids who become the top high school players came from the pool of 12U studs. However, many 12U studs fail when they get on the big field.

Only four from my LL all-star team (only game in town then) played high school ball. Two played college ball and were drafted. The biggest, baddest flame throwing, hit the ball out of sight player was 5'9" in LL and 5'10" in high school. It wasn't that the other ten all-stars weren't good athletes. Nine played a high school sport. They just weren't good enough to be high school baseball players. One discovered chicks dig guitar playing lead singers and stopped playing sports.

A chubby, klutzy kid who didn't make all-stars became a 6'4", 245 pound flame throwing MLB pitcher for six years. He didn't pitch until his senior year of high school when the coach needed arms. He had been catching. The next year he was pitching in the SEC.

A kid from a rival LL ultimately became a Legion teammate and college summer ball teammate. He was hitting twenty homers a year in LL. He didn't bother with Babe Ruth level ball. He was too busy developing his golf game. I saw him hit some balls out of sight in Legion and summer ball. He was a first round pick out of college. He was doing great in the minors when he got injured a couple of times. Here's fate: Had he been one of the prospects packaged in a trade offer he would have been starting in the majors before the injuries occured in the minors. The MLB front office refused to include him in the trade. The deal fell apart.

There are four high school prospects from my son's '05 LL all-star team. Seven of the other eight are high school prospects in other sports. The eighth is too small and weak (5' with 5'6" dad and 5'1" mom). He peaked at 10U when he wasn't drastically smaller than everyone else.

The stud pitcher a year ahead of my son in LL, has already blown his arm out from playing LL and travel at the same time. Muscle distress has snapped his arm twice in the last three years. He's not expected to pitch again after breaking his arm in three places (one place twice) in three years.

I'm sure this is a common tale but the big stud kid on my LL team (late 70's) was 5'9" and hit a couple balls over 400 ft that year. I saw him a few years later and he was the same size, maybe an inch taller and never even played high school ball.

There were three kids I played LL with that played pro ball. One was a big kid in LL (5'7 - 5'8" topped out around 5'10") and the other two were undersized and developed late. The big kid ended up playing RB in the NFL, the other two...one played DB in the NFL for several years and the other topped out at AAA in the White Sox organization. So I'd say one of our two big kids made it, and two little kids made it.

Jon

It is good to hear success stories. My son is a 5'10", 160+ lb. stud shortstop who turns thirteen this fall. I have read on this site over and over how the 12 year old studs have no chance to play HS ball. It makes me a little nervous. But in his defense, his Grandpa was 6'5" and his 8 uncles are 6'2" to 6'6". Lets hope he keeps growing and improving. Height seems to be the key to success.

Three of the very best 12yo baseball players I've ever seen fizzled out in high school. They were faster and stronger than their peers and were amazing at 12, I thought they were without a doubt on the fast track to the majors. Now when I hear stories of phenoms I wonder...
Jordan was no phenom at 15, Lebron was and Pippin was not. I would guess that a larger percentage were studs at 12 in their sport, 6-7 of the ones playing in the minors that I know were very good at twelve, they just weren't the studs that caught everyones eye.

Thanks Stanwood. He definately wants it. Gets ****ed off when I say that's enough ground balls, swings, whatever. I have to tell him everyday that his body needs rest as much as it needs work. I hope he sticks with it but you never know.

What is the description of a 12 year old stud?

Mine was always the tallest, but he sure wasn't the team stud, he had a good arm and played his position well. The studs were the physically more mature players who showed power at the plate and had rocket arms. Very few went onto play college ball or beyond.

There is absolutely no guarantee that a 12 year old, stud or no stud will be playing baseball in or after HS.

FYI, in our area, the best most wanted player for years went Juco and then bust.

quote:

I have read on this site over and over how the 12 year old studs have no chance to play HS ball.

I would not sweat this out......its true many of the so called 12 yr old heros fizzle out before HS ball.......because there are a lot of turns along the way that catch up players.........the other players grow up, get better, run faster, or work harder...then add in girls, other sports and heaven forbid, behavior issues, you can see the thinning of the ranks.........

Baseball is definately a pyramid...the higher you go the smaller the amount of players who can make it.....and sucess at one level may be an indication of success at the next level, but it is certainly no guarantee of sucess at the next level......

try to enjoy this season.......

When you are referring to stud I'm guessing you mean 12yr old children who started maturing earlier then their team mates.
What a player does at age 12 has no bearing on what he will do in high school.
Some players develope their talents early, some later.
but once he has reached his full potential he will no longer advance to the next level.
Some players top level is LL, some hs, college, minor leagues.
Its nor when you start, its where you finish.

That is not my experience at all. Most of the kids that I saw that were the top players in AAU at 12 ended up being the best in HS. For instance.

12 AAU
Justin Jackson - TC Roberson HS Drafted
Chris Luck - South Granville HS Drafted
Madison Bumgardner - South Caldwell HS Drafted
Sam Runion - AC Reynolds HS Drafted
Ryan Leach - East Rutherford HS - UNC
Zeke Blanton - East Rutherford HS - UNC
Justin Poovey - South Caldwell HS - Florida
Jason Wallace - Ragsdale HS - App State
Catlin Carter - Ragsdale HS - App State
Wes McBride - West Forsyth HS - UNC Greensboro
Patrick Johnson - St Stephens HS - UNC
Vance Williams - Athens Drive HS - NC State
Quincy Lattamore - Middle Creek HS - Drafted
David Mailman - Providence HS - Drafted

I could on and on. All these guys were top level 12 year old players that I personally saw play. The same could be said for the 08 class.

Cameron Conner - South Wake Storm AAU - NC State
Pratt Maynard - Durham Diamonds AAU - NC State
Jeff May - Durham Diamonds AAU - UNC
Sean Madden - Durham Diamonds AAU - Lenoir Rhyne
Mike Dimmock - Triad Thunder AAU - Wake Forest
Mac Williamson - Wake Thunder AAU - Wake Forest
Jeremy Dowdy - Wake Thunder AAU - Clemson
Cameron Cockman - Triad Thunder AAU - UNCW
Tyler Hanover - Kernersville Cardinals AAU - LSU

Again I could go on and on as well. Most of the kids at 12 that were very good remained the top players in HS. Were there some that did not get better? Yes. But my experience has been that the better players at 12 were the better players at 13 and 14 and so on. Are there guys that develop later on , yes.

It is not definite that they will continue to be the better players. But from my experience it is a good indication of things to come.

Part of the problem lies in who is making the "stud" assessment when these kids are 12.

The truth is, lots of folks don't really know what they were looking for.

I would suggest that Coach May knew what to look for at that age and stage of development. The proof is in the pudding, you might say.

The problem with baseball is, everyone thinks they are an expert. I can find 30 experts in either side's stands at any given Little League game. But a lot of these experts, in truth, wouldn't know a budding future talent if he came up and bit them on their hind parts.

You know the types. They start their own travel teams at ages 12-14 because the other coaches just don't appreciate their sons. The high school coach cut their kid from JV but the high school coach didn't know beans. And of course, by mid-high school, their kid "burned out". Yada yada yada.

I'm not saying players that are good at 12 won't be good in hs and beyond.
But there are players who good at 12 that have had more training than others. Does not mean they will continue to develop
There are players who bigger and stronger than others who may not continue to develop as players.
Just has there are small players who will grow, and players will who just started playing at 12 that will be come great ball players.
None of the All Stars on my son 12yr LL team played beyond hs, most did not play in hs except my son and he was not considered a stud as a 4'9" 12 yr old

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
It is good to hear success stories. My son is a 5'10", 160+ lb. stud shortstop who turns thirteen this fall. I have read on this site over and over how the 12 year old studs have no chance to play HS ball. It makes me a little nervous. But in his defense, his Grandpa was 6'5" and his 8 uncles are 6'2" to 6'6". Lets hope he keeps growing and improving. Height seems to be the key to success.

The correct point would is being a 12U stud doesn't guarantee future success. A lot changes on the 60/90 field. Many early bloomers outmuscle the smaller fields and don't learn the game properly. They struggle on the big field.

Most importantly is where a kid is physically by high school, not 12U. I just checked my son's LL all-star picture. He was eighth of twelve in height. After growing five inches in the last five months he's now (age fourteen) the fourth tallest from that group. He's a late bloomer like his sister was (she's 5'10").

When you see a 5'8" 12U stud with a 5'8" father, the journey is usually close to over. If you looked at the parents of my son's all-star team, even though my son was one of the shortest (5'0"), mom (5'8") and I (6'1") were among the tallest.

I believe being shorter has been a benefit to my son. He's had to be very fundamentally sound to succeed. He was still the best player in his LL and one of the best on his 12U travel team. He hit the ball over the fence (fence scrapers ... I used to tease him the balls came back with yellow on them). He just didn't hit the "Did you see that!" bombs some other kids hit. Now he's growing. The game should get much easier for him if he maintains his same work ethic.

Strength and speed is more important than size. However size tends to contribute to strength and speed in many cases.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
That is not my experience at all. Most of the kids that I saw that were the top players in AAU at 12 ended up being the best in HS. For instance.

12 AAU
Justin Jackson - TC Roberson HS Drafted
Chris Luck - South Granville HS Drafted
Madison Bumgardner - South Caldwell HS Drafted
Sam Runion - AC Reynolds HS Drafted
Ryan Leach - East Rutherford HS - UNC
Zeke Blanton - East Rutherford HS - UNC
Justin Poovey - South Caldwell HS - Florida
Jason Wallace - Ragsdale HS - App State
Catlin Carter - Ragsdale HS - App State
Wes McBride - West Forsyth HS - UNC Greensboro
Patrick Johnson - St Stephens HS - UNC
Vance Williams - Athens Drive HS - NC State
Quincy Lattamore - Middle Creek HS - Drafted
David Mailman - Providence HS - Drafted

I could on and on. All these guys were top level 12 year old players that I personally saw play. The same could be said for the 08 class.

Cameron Conner - South Wake Storm AAU - NC State
Pratt Maynard - Durham Diamonds AAU - NC State
Jeff May - Durham Diamonds AAU - UNC
Sean Madden - Durham Diamonds AAU - Lenoir Rhyne
Mike Dimmock - Triad Thunder AAU - Wake Forest
Mac Williamson - Wake Thunder AAU - Wake Forest
Jeremy Dowdy - Wake Thunder AAU - Clemson
Cameron Cockman - Triad Thunder AAU - UNCW
Tyler Hanover - Kernersville Cardinals AAU - LSU

Again I could go on and on as well. Most of the kids at 12 that were very good remained the top players in HS. Were there some that did not get better? Yes. But my experience has been that the better players at 12 were the better players at 13 and 14 and so on. Are there guys that develop later on , yes.

It is not definite that they will continue to be the better players. But from my experience it is a good indication of things to come.

You've cherry picked players from a wide area. The discussion is more about a random sampling of kids.

We could probably go all over the state and select the kids most likely to succeed. There would be 12U players starring we would leave of the list because they don't look athletic or are very mechanically flawed. They star on the small fields due to size and strength.

There was a LL/12U kid who was legendary in our area for hitting the rooftops across the street over the right field fence with his homers. When I saw the field my first comment was, "A lefty?" He wasn't a lefty. He was an extremely strong 5'8", 170 pound kid who swung like a gate. He stiff armed oppo bombs to the rooftops.

In 13U he sucked. He flew out a lot. Throw him a curve from sixty feet and he was Bo Bo the Dancing Bear. He struck out a lot. He was worse this year in 14U. He's the same size as when he was twelve. His dad is 5'7". The party is over for this kid.

When our kids were twelve I told a parent there were four baseball players on our all-star team. This is a team that went a long way and was only derailed by a team that went to the LLWS. I told the parent who the four players are. It's 15U fall ball. There are four high school prospects from this group. It's the four I selected when they were twelve. The parent asked how I could see that far ahead. I told him I know the game. I upset a lot of parents only taking those four on my 12U travel team. I knew when they were eleven, they were the only real potential players on the team.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
It is good to hear success stories. My son is a 5'10", 160+ lb. stud shortstop who turns thirteen this fall. I have read on this site over and over how the 12 year old studs have no chance to play HS ball. It makes me a little nervous. But in his defense, his Grandpa was 6'5" and his 8 uncles are 6'2" to 6'6". Lets hope he keeps growing and improving. Height seems to be the key to success.

There are only a couple of people who can truly decide it's over; the coach who cuts your son and your son not believing he can improve his game. If your son doesn't believe the coach, improves his game and proves himself to another coach, the game goes on. It's not over until your son is told it's over and he believes it. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any Chris Coste's.

No I posted facts. Backed up with names and AAU teams played for and HS attended. Ask anyone from NC that watched 12u AAU baseball if they remember Madison Bumgardner. He went in the first round this year. The same can be said of Justin Jackson another first rounder. The fact is the best 12 year olds will make up most of the best 13 year olds. And the best 13 year olds will make up most of the best 14 year olds. And so on and so on. There will be "some" that will not continue to progress. There will be "some" that will come on as they grow and be outstanding players.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
No I posted facts. Backed up with names and AAU teams played for and HS attended. Ask anyone from NC that watched 12u AAU baseball if they remember Madison Bumgardner. He went in the first round this year. The same can be said of Justin Jackson another first rounder. The fact is the best 12 year olds will make up most of the best 13 year olds. And the best 13 year olds will make up most of the best 14 year olds. And so on and so on. There will be "some" that will not continue to progress. There will be "some" that will come on as they grow and be outstanding players.

Your example is AAU travel players who were handpicked in the first place. There are many LL, Ripken and travel players around the country who peak on the small fields. I've seen kids peak at ten years old. It was the last time they got away with being bigger or stronger. What do a lot of the failures have in common? They're physical early bloomers. These failures stop growing. They go from 12U studs to 14U spuds. Their peers streak by them at fourteen to sixteen years old.

Whats the point? Is it that some kids peek early and dont get better? Yes that happens. Just like some kids are small and weak and stay small and weak. Whats the point?

Some kids are the best at 12 and the best at 18. I was giving examples of this fact. Some kids are not studs at 12 and are at 18.

Definition of a 12u stud; 6'2" 250- Holds the record for home runs at Cooperstown. Drafted by the Houston Astros in the first round out of high school.
I didn't know him as a 12yo but he's a example of a stud who kept working on his game and got drafted very high, still has a long way to the majors but he's off to a good start.
The point is that the initial poster made the comment that he feels EVERY mlb player was a stud at 12 and THAT's why he go some of the responses that he did.
I would guess that most mlb players showed signs of greatness at 12 but I doubt that all were studs that dominated at a high level.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Part of the problem lies in who is making the "stud" assessment when these kids are 12.

The truth is, lots of folks don't really know what they were looking for.

I would suggest that Coach May knew what to look for at that age and stage of development. The proof is in the pudding, you might say.

Good point. I was thinking that the original post was referring to physical attributes not talent.

Not to ruffle any feathers, but what's the point? I don't think when son was 12 it actually crossed my mind if he was a "stud" or not. And if he was, would that mean he would be successful at 23-25 (real stud age IMO).

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Part of the problem lies in who is making the "stud" assessment when these kids are 12.

The truth is, lots of folks don't really know what they were looking for.

I would suggest that Coach May knew what to look for at that age and stage of development. The proof is in the pudding, you might say.

Good point. I was thinking that the original post was referring to physical attributes not talent.

Not to ruffle any feathers, but what's the point? I don't think when son was 12 it actually crossed my mind if he was a "stud" or not. And if he was, would that mean he would be successful at 23-25 (real stud age IMO).

Let me explain asking what is the point.

At 12,IMO, a parent should have 3 things on their mind about their player. If he is pitching that he is not getting abused, getting a good foundation for fundamentals and having fun. Stud status comes later on.

BTW, Coach May's son is a stud, but he would never admit that.

That is because the parents of a true stud player don't find it necessary to continually point it out to others.

I am new at this but from what I can see there is a huge difference between most U12 kids with May birthdays versus the U12 kids with March or April birthdays. In other words puberty.

In reality yes there are some U12 studs that move on but until they play on the 90' diamond we really will not know. Then there are girls.

My son is only about 4'10 at 11 and I am 5'7 wife is 5'1. We are sure hoping he is more like my parents and grand parents size. My mom is 5'6 and dad was just under 6' with my brother at about 6'1(Yes same parents ).

Let's face it. You cannot teach size or speed.

Thank God my son has guys like Jimmy Rollins, Brian Roberts, and David Eckstein to look up to for inspiration.

I didn't think Stud had anything to do with size. More about talent and results.

Bill L

Don't forget the 2007 AL Rookie of the Year (most likely..lol) Dustin Pedroia !!!!

I live in New england so I think our perspective is different then other regions. I can think of one stud from our league who is entering his senior year of HS, he holds all the records for our Ripken league etc.. He has been a stud right through HS and is headed to Boston College on a scholarship. So that is a case of a stud at 12U continuing on..but I can also say that he has worked his butt off to maintain his so called stud status. I think that is the key...physical talent can only take you so far without refining it and nuturing it through hard work, especially here in New England.

We also had Jeff Locke from northern NH who was drafted 50th by the braves in last year's draft. He was a stud at 12U and usually played a few years up because of his talent. But if you read articles about him you'll read about how hard he worked to stay ahead of the curve as well, sneaking into the gym to throw regularly during our brutal winters etc... Physical tools + hard work is what keeps you a stud after 12U studom!!

(My son is actually a 12 now. While he is one of the better players at his age I would NOT call him a stud. He is big for his age (March B-day) 5' 7" and 140lbs but puberty hasn't really hit him yet either, so I think he will just grow into his size 11 1/2 feet..lol But hard work and good coaching will get him on his HS team and who knows from there..left-handers who can throw hard with movement and a solid change-up are liked..especially if he hits the 6' 2" - 6' 4" range his doctor expects him to peak at...only time will tell!)

I agree

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Part of the problem lies in who is making the "stud" assessment when these kids are 12.

The truth is, lots of folks don't really know what they were looking for.

I would suggest that Coach May knew what to look for at that age and stage of development. The proof is in the pudding, you might say.

Good point. I was thinking that the original post was referring to physical attributes not talent.

Not to ruffle any feathers, but what's the point? I don't think when son was 12 it actually crossed my mind if he was a "stud" or not. And if he was, would that mean he would be successful at 23-25 (real stud age IMO).

To the typical person a 12U stud is a kid putting up big numbers/big games. He dominates. The following is not intended to be a brag. It's comparing two kids I know. One is my son.

My son was a 12U stud at five feet, ninety-five pounds. Another kid was a stud at 5'8", 170. Here's where they are now: At fourteen, my son is 5'9", 130. The other kid is 5'8", 170. My son is still starring. The other kid sucks. He fell on his face on the 60/90 field.

On the LL and travel fields the big kid could muscle the ball over 200-250 foot fences. Today he can't make contact. he can't touch a breaking pitch. My son hit fence scrappers in LL. He couldn't reach the 250 foot travel fences. At fourteen he cleared the fences in full size parks (high school, college, minors parks) eight times. As the physical development playing field leveled, my son shot past this kid in ability.

My son succeeded, and continues to succeed because he learned how to play the game properly. He will probably continue to excel and have a shot to play college ball because he has two tall, athletic parents. In a few more years my son will be 6'2" while this other kid will still be 5'8".

The other kid succeeded because he was strong, even though he lacked skills. With his numbers there's no doubt he was a 12U stud. He also threw 78 in 11U. He doesn't throw this hard now. He won't make the high school team. His journey is about over. He has two non-athletic, short parents. He was taller than his dad at age twelve.

quote:

Originally posted by sluggo:
That is because the parents of a true stud player don't find it necessary to continually point it out to others.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill L.:
Thank God my son has guys like Jimmy Rollins, Brian Roberts, and David Eckstein to look up to for inspiration.

Another role model for your son could be Chris Cates. Cates played for Louisville. He's 5'3". If it's still on the UL site there was a great interview with him. He was drafted this spring. He can be followed now on MiLB.com by searching for "Cates" under "players". My son loves Cates since he's always been the smaller player until he stated growing like a weed five months ago.

Thanks for all the info. Since I liked what Coach May said the best, I will take his word for law on all things baseball until I disagree with him.

Thanks again for all of the different viewpoints.

I will give all of you an update in 5 years on his progress.

Ah... Cates, what a great story! I saw him play a few times, I was amazed that a young man that size was playing div 1 baseball!
My son also played some with Boomer Whiting when they were around 16, he stole a few bases this past year. Was it 80+?
PS Doughnutman, a yearly report might be better
Oh, and could somebody please pass the pudding? I'm getting really hungry with the pudding refs.

quote:

Originally posted by Innocent Bystander:
Ah... Cates, what a great story! I saw him play a few times, I was amazed that a young man that size was playing div 1 baseball!
My son also played some with Boomer Whiting when they were around 16, he stole a few bases this past year. Was it 80+?

We live just a few miles from a Big East stadium. Whiting, Howes and Johnson were fun to watch hit. Alfonso was fun to watch throw down. His release is so quick and his arm so strong, not only was his caught stealing percentage low in '07, no one ran on him. There was a rediculously low number of attempts.

[quote]My son was a 12U stud at five feet, ninety-five pounds. Another kid was a stud at 5'8", 170. Here's where they are now: At fourteen, my son is 5'9", 130. The other kid is 5'8", 170. My son is still starring. The other kid sucks. He fell on his face on the 60/90 field.

On the LL and travel fields the big kid could muscle the ball over 200-250 foot fences. Today he can't make contact. he can't touch a breaking pitch. My son hit fence scrappers in LL. He couldn't reach the 250 foot travel fences. At fourteen he cleared the fences in full size parks (high school, college, minors parks) eight times. As the physical development playing field leveled, my son shot past this kid in ability.

My son succeeded, and continues to succeed because he learned how to play the game properly. He will probably continue to excel and have a shot to play college ball because he has two tall, athletic parents. In a few more years my son will be 6'2" while this other kid will still be 5'8".

TG that is the worse three paragraphs I think I have ever read on this site. "The other kid sucks". Sorry if this offends you but everything quoted above goes against what I believe. You dont trash kids. You dont build your kid up by tearing another kid down. And you never give up on a young kid playing the game. "He will probaly continue to excell and have a shot to play college ball because he has two tall, athletic parents". Does this mean a kid that has two short non athletic parents is nearing the end of the journey?

I sure hope that this young man and his parents do not read the HSBW.

Does this mean a kid that has two short non athletic parents is nearing the end of the journey? An unathletic kid with two unathletic parents is unlikely to turn into a athlete.

It's comparing two scenarios. It's not building my son up against another kid. As I explained up front I was using my son as an example because I know his background well.

"Sucks" is a short realistic breakdown of the other player's current ability. Once again it's nothing personal against the kid. It's using him as an example of a legendary 11U/12U stud who I could tell them wouldn't be successful on the 60/90 field. It's not like he lost the opportunity to play baseball because we didn't want him. He went elsewhere and failed for two years.

My point about size is the kid wasn't very athletic in the first place. He just hit his adult size and strength at 11U/12U by being a physical early bloomer. He's the same size at fourteen as he was at eleven. Given your background I'm sure you would have looked at him at 11U/12U and agreed he wasn't going anywhere in the game. In fact, when we put together our travel team based on the LL district, when we reviewed all-star teams, when we got to this team I asked the other three coaches if anyone disagreed in my belief the kid has peaked on the small fields. No one disagreed.

This kid never lost on the small fields as a pitcher. He hammered a ton of homers. In 13U and 14U he was hammered almost every time he pitched. Hitting he flied out a lot when he wasn't whiffing.

I didn't mention his name so I don't believe I raked a kid. From my "location" how would anyone on this board know who I'm talking about? Even if his dad read this (doubt he did) there are plenty of big 12U kids stiff arming oppo homers on small fields and failing on the 60/90. He's far from the only one in the country, the region, or even our old LL district or travel area with this profile. There were "stud" all-stars from our own LL parents couldn't understand why we (travel team coaching staff) weren't interested. Like you, we could identify potential from pretenders based on mechanics and athletic potential.

I believe your post is more of a personal attack in an attempt to take me down since you can't get me to buy into your point of view. Remember you hacked at me first. While you may be offended of my description of an anonymous player, I'm offended by your attempt to directly attack me. Your post is not in the form of disagreement. It's in the form of a personal attack.

It's just another shining example of old timers slamming newer posters.

I don't think Coach May is "out to get" anyone. He just pointed out what should be every parents/coaches creed. There is never a need to put someone down for their efforts, especially someone else's kid, whatever you think of them.

In my mind, baseball is a cumulative sport, success at one level certainly can be helpful at the next. Being a U12 stud is just that, enjoy your time, work hard to be a U whatever stud in the future.

TG,
JMO, but I think Coach May may have just said out loud what others may have been thinking (your description of the other players abilities). Has nothing to do with being an "old timer".

It is not our intention here to put down other players with descriptive words that may offend others, even without identifying who it is I think that you could have gotten your point across in a better way.

BTW, not so sure of your theories as my player's parents are 5'2" and 5'10", and we have never participated in a college sport.

I am not sure of the obsession these days of projecting future ability and talent based on a players future size and his parents athleticism. There is so much more that goes into it. This is not my opinion but something I have seen first hand and not using my player as an example. The above post is true, enjoy your time, work hard and good things will happen, if the player wants them to.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
It is not our intention here to put down other players with descriptive words that may offend others, even without identifying who it is I think that you could have gotten your point across in a better way.

I disagree. There's no way for anyone to know who I'm talking about. It's just an example of two players.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
BTW, not so sure of your theories as my player's parents are 5'2" and 5'10", and we have never participated in a college sport.

I was speaking in generalities. Typically a kid will fall into a growth range based on their parents genes. Without going into a dissertation on genetics and exceptions, let's just say the exceptions exist. Personally, I should have been taller than 6'1". The one short grandmother got into my genetic makeup.

And the kids of athletic parents are far more likely to be athletic than non-athletic parents (don't confuse this with parents who didn't play sports). Note I said far more likely, not absolutely. In the example in my post, I never saw athleticism. I only saw early bloomer strength.

quote:

Originally posted by TG:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
It is not our intention here to put down other players with descriptive words that may offend others, even without identifying who it is. I think that you could have gotten your point across in a better way.

TG states:
I disagree. There's no way for anyone to know who I'm talking about. It's just an example of two players.


TPM states:
I just think you could have left out the s word, it was not necessary.

Genes, genes, genes.

Let's see.
1 uncle played for the Cowboys, 2 uncles played college basketball(but only Div. II), Grandpa's on both sides played college basketball(one was only JUCO though), one uncle played MILB(only got to AA, not good), Mom was a pentathlete in college,(Div. II again, not good), 2 Uncles offered full ride Div. I football rides, chose to stay home with HS sweethearts.

Now, Dad had 3 knee surgeries before age 18. Most Uncles walk around like they don't have knees. Great Grandma was 4'11" when she stretched. One aunt can't walk and chew gum. 3 Uncles trip if they don't look down when they walk. Vast majority on both sides(Cousins) never played tag let alone HS sports. One aunt 5'2"(she claims, I have my doubts). All first cousins think that sports are for idiots and refuse to play, thus screwing up my data .

Could someone tell me how my kids will do?

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Genes, genes, genes.

Let's see.
1 uncle played for the Cowboys, 2 uncles played college basketball(but only Div. II), Grandpa's on both sides played college basketball(one was only JUCO though), one uncle played MILB(only got to AA, not good), Mom was a pentathlete in college,(Div. II again, not good), 2 Uncles offered full ride Div. I football rides, chose to stay home with HS sweethearts.

Now, Dad had 3 knee surgeries before age 18. Most Uncles walk around like they don't have knees. Great Grandma was 4'11" when she stretched. One aunt can't walk and chew gum. 3 Uncles trip if they don't look down when they walk. Vast majority on both sides(Cousins) never played tag let alone HS sports. One aunt 5'2"(she claims, I have my doubts). All first cousins think that sports are for idiots and refuse to play, thus screwing up my data .

Could someone tell me how my kids will do?

First, a kid has to want it to become a player. Tom Saunders (ESPN) was discussing this on a show once. He said his daughters obviously have the athletic ability and all the tools at their disposal but they don't want it. Saunders was a D1 college athlete if you didn't know.

You can start down the family tree with the most recent generation. If you see athletes and athletic ability the odds are greater the kids are going to be athletic than a kid without athleticism in the family tree/genes. Don't confuse not playing with lack of athleticism. Some parents had the ability but chose not to participate or opportunity did not exist.

There are exceptions that enter into play. A friend was 6'6" and played in the NBA. No one in his tree ever came close to being that tall. I'm the shortest male in three generations in my family tree at 6'1". I must have got a touch of grandma's 5'2" genes.

The higher up you go on the athletic food chain (high school, college, pro) the more you're going to see kids with athletic family trees (people, please don't start posting your personal individual exceptions).

It's funny you mentioned a mix of athleticism and non athleticism. A friend was a first team All-American pitcher from the SEC back in his day . His son is extremely less talented (is that better TPM?). He didn't make the middle school team. He jokes he polluted to the gene pool with his wife's non athletic genes.

Adding to the list of reasons why I'm glad I'm adopted.

quote:

Originally posted by sluggo:
That is because the parents of a true stud player don't find it necessary to continually point it out to others.

that's it.

55Mom,
I was trying to be funny. Did you notice the Icons?

Not bragging. Not much anyway. I was trying to make fun of genetics. You never know what you will get. We humans are a pretty mongrel lot(no dog icons I see) and there is a huge differnce in skills and abilities in the immediate family let alone the extended family. Almost anything can pop up.
And it has in my family!!

Not sure if you're kidding or not about being adopted, but.. a friend of mine WAS adopted. His parents later concieved 2 more boys. When he graduated he was around 6'3" 200lbs and was the starting Qb of the football team and was an all city baseball player. He owns a building company and is doing very well.
Now, the 2 younger brothers as far as I know didn't play sports, have been in and out of jail and their lives have been wrecked by drugs and alcohol. Not sure what the Sam Hill was goin' on there but the the adopted son turned out totally different than the other two.
Let's see; my mom and dad both grew up Amish. My dad is 76 6'1" 240 and the doc was amazed at his physique, said he looked like a linebacker and looked like he was good for another 50 yrs. He still works full time and is stronger than a horse. I shook hands with Lyle Alzado and my dads hands are twice the size Lyles were, the old f*rt's an animal.

IB,
I had two kids and they are totally different. one's a girl and one's a boy.

Gene's do play a factor in development, disposition, desires and ability, etc. But, IMO it is not a prerequisite for determining the next ARod.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
IB,
I had two kids and they are totally different. one's a girl and one's a boy.

Gene's do play a factor in development, disposition, desires and ability, etc. But, IMO it is not a prerequisite for determining the next ARod.

How many A Rods are there? Genes aren't the only reason a kid becomes an athlete, but it certainly increases the odds. I know pre teen rec kids who loved they game. They practiced their brains out. But they did not have the athletic ability to continue. Passion for the game isn't enough. There has to be innate ability. Where does innate ability come from?

Funny you should mention that innate ability, sort of like the sixth tool. I was discussing that with someone today.

Innate abilty is what seperates players. IMO, you can practice your brains out and if you don't got it, you don't got it. You can train to be the most athletic on the field, the fastest runner, the best hitter, have the best arm. The player who usually finds most success, is the one who understands the game (or sport) without anyone ever telling them what to do, it's all natural. I don't know where it comes from. My son has a teammate in pro ball, who he feels will be very successful. He rarely goes to the gym to work out. He doesn't WORK at his game until he is on the field. It's a natural ability, as unprepared as he is he is more prepared than many. He's not that athletic either. He is not a STUD.

You have to have athletic ability to participate in sports and keep up with any game you participate in to have success, that's a given. But good genes do not translate4 into stars, they help, but not a given. Lots of factors go into the whole picture.
The whole thing is one really doesn't know how things will turn out until the time arrives, and it arrives differently for all comes either at 12, 15, 23.
This discussion has taken place numerous times here on the HSBBW. I think everyone understands what you are at 12 doesn't determines your future. But the dicussion takes another turn when one begins to compare players using verbs that don't belong in the discussion.
Enough already.

TPM,
How about a list of those verbs? If you entered them would you have to delete your own post as moderator? Is this site more like George Carlin live or the TV specials he did?

Inquiring minds need to know.

quote:

Originally posted by Innocent Bystander:
Not sure if you're kidding or not about being adopted, but.. a friend of mine WAS adopted.

No, I am not kidding about being adopted. It's a blessing that I'm very proud of. I was just kind of getting a kick out of all the genetics mumbo jumbo. Not something I put a whole lot of thought into thankfully. I have no preconceived notions about my kids abilities based on that of there ancestry. What they want to become they will become, as is proven by the story of your friend as well as my own and my adopted brother's.

I believe our kids are capable of reaching hieghts beyond their genetics. At least I hope so for their sake. ;-) I'll set no limits or expectations based on what myself or anyone else has accomplished.

TM

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
TPM,
How about a list of those verbs? If you entered them would you have to delete your own post as moderator? Is this site more like George Carlin live or the TV specials he did?

Inquiring minds need to know.

Not sure if I have used it, most likely not, but certainly not when comparing players, that's the difference (did you not read Caoch May's post). I am with coach May on this one, regardless of who said what. It's wrong.

Deaconspoint, nice post. I agree with you completetly.

TPM,
I knew what you were talking about. I was just trying to be funny.

It didn't work. I promise to do better in the future.

I do appreciate this site and its manners very much. I have read almost every post on subjects that I find interesting. Thousands at least. I consider it baseball grad school.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
55Mom,
I was trying to be funny. Did you notice the Icons?

Not bragging. Not much anyway. I was trying to make fun of genetics. You never know what you will get. We humans are a pretty mongrel lot(no dog icons I see) and there is a huge differnce in skills and abilities in the immediate family let alone the extended family. Almost anything can pop up.
And it has in my family!!

I got it - but felt Sluggo had a point. I was kinda posting and running...! My husband is adopted. All the good qualities are credited to my side of the family and when anything bad happens, his side gets the credit. This is especially true with baseball. We have had several players in my family, so we get all the credit on my side. lol

With one son 6'5" and another 6'3", I don't worry too much about height, except when I'm trying to get something off the top shelf.

imo, both my sons are STUDs - but my opinion doesn't count, does it! oh well.

Deaconspoint nice post,
Where does talent come from .... Its a gift.

quote:

Originally posted by njbb:
Deaconspoint nice post,
Where does talent come from .... Its a gift.

Do you really think it's just a gift? Who's more likley to have a top level athlete for a kid? Garciaparra and Hamm or one of your neighbors? Agassi and Graf or one of your neighbors? Go figure, Jack Elway is a stud QB in a power high school program. Not only is his dad John Elway, his mother was an Olympic swimmer. Fate? Gift? Uh uh. Genetics.

The gift-Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, and Wayne Gretzky might fit that discription. They weren't the biggest and fastest or strongest but had something extra, something that drove them and set them apart.
And then you have the Manning family, Wow! A whole family with the gift. Genetics is a very large part of the gift there.

yes I do think its a gift... woulsn't know about Nomars child haven't seen him play...

quote:

Originally posted by Innocent Bystander:
The gift-Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, and Wayne Gretzky might fit that discription. They weren't the biggest and fastest or strongest but had something extra, something that drove them and set them apart.
And then you have the Manning family, Wow! A whole family with the gift. Genetics is a very large part of the gift there.

Do you know what Jordan's, Woods' and Gretzky's family's athletic backgrounds are. A player doesn't have to have former pro athletes for parents to be talented. But I'll bet at least one parent was athletic enough to play high school level sports even if they didn't. I doubt there are many male flute players from the high school band spawning pro athletes.

I laugh when people quote Pete Rose as saying he wasn't a great athlete. They don't see he's talking relative to other pro athletes. The guy was all-world in high school sports. Relative to all people who made it to high school sports he's a phenomenal athlete. Then he did the rest on hard work and determination.

quote:

Originally posted by Innocent Bystander:
My dad is 76 6'1" 240 and the doc was amazed at his physique, said he looked like a linebacker and looked like he was good for another 50 yrs. He still works full time and is stronger than a horse.

Does he ever smack you and Bee around to keep you kids in line? When he does can I watch???

I wish genes had a bigger part in it all, husband is a lefty.

In our town, the "stud" is not biggest kid. Many get caught up in the notion that the bigger player is better.

We have a kid who is middle of the road in size for our town. Hit's the cover off the ball. Hit his first HR at 9 years old and measured 250ft. There are good players who are bigger who do not come close to hitting the ball like this kid.

Bigger is not always better

quote:

Originally posted by batdad25:
In our town, the "stud" is not biggest kid. Many get caught up in the notion that the bigger player is better.

We have a kid who is middle of the road in size for our town. Hit's the cover off the ball. Hit his first HR at 9 years old and measured 250ft. There are good players who are bigger who do not come close to hitting the ball like this kid.

Bigger is not always better

As long as his dad did not play in the HS band I would continue to expect great things from the young man. If he did maybe he'll be lucky enough to read some of the brilliance penned in this thread and will keep it a secret from the boy as long as he can. Could you imagine finding out just before your shot on the big field that dad was in the band. Oh the humanity!!

All the more reason to burn my yearbooks.

Or one of those kids "That 70's Show" was written about!

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
I wish genes had a bigger part in it all, husband is a lefty.

Here's one for you. I am a lefty. My son is a lefty. We didn't figure it out until three years after he was taught to throw righty. He even colored and wrote/scribbled with both hands until he was five.

When he was two he started hunging out at his sister's softball practice and wanted to shag balls. He never showed a preference for either hand so we went with the 90% chance he was a righty. Maybe I should have taught him to throw left anyway. I taught both kids to bat left.