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What a sell job!!
As Tom House used to say, if you are not cheating you are loosing!
As Tom House used to say, if you are not cheating you are loosing!
This kind of play has been part of the game for many, many decades. Not the same as using a corked bat or steroids in my book.
Cheap!! I guess when your hitting around .200 since the all star game you do what you can to get on base.
And will the umpire apologize to the Rays manager for blowing the call, then throwing him out of the game.
And will the umpire apologize to the Rays manager for blowing the call, then throwing him out of the game.
so why doesn't MLB get to toss the umpire for a game or two? Not only did he blow the call, but then he runs the Manager for being right? grrrr....
I love baseball, and this is the part of the game that ****es me off to no end. I'm sure many feel the same way. I don't fear competition from football or other sports, because I believe baseball will always be around. Whether or not baseball is relevant is another question. IMHO for the game to be relevant, there has GOT to be some type of instant replay or coaches challenge system in place by MLB leadership. There are way TOO many calls being missed. I applaud Joe Maddon for arguing this call, and eventually getting tossed. It is just ridiculuos that MLB has the capability & technology to do it, but they just choose to not try. For God's sake, tennis has instant reply.....freaking tennis!
I am torn a bit by this...isn't this the way that some individuals have always played the game? Isn’t this part of the drama that we love about the game?
An umpire calls a ball a strike or vice versa? Neighborhood plays around the 2nd base bag?
If a runner is tagged out but the umpire misses the call is the runner supposed to say "no ump, he really got me, I'm out"?
It is very frustrating at times, and very humorous at others.
When a hitter tries to hold up on a pitch, but knows he went around, should he insist on taking a strike?
Leave the game alone...this a part of the game that fans love to hate!
An umpire calls a ball a strike or vice versa? Neighborhood plays around the 2nd base bag?
If a runner is tagged out but the umpire misses the call is the runner supposed to say "no ump, he really got me, I'm out"?
It is very frustrating at times, and very humorous at others.
When a hitter tries to hold up on a pitch, but knows he went around, should he insist on taking a strike?
Leave the game alone...this a part of the game that fans love to hate!
Cheating is cheating and lying is lying. Not much gray area there.
Now we know the price of Jeters integrity...getting on base.
It's one thing to be awarded the base erroneously by the ump, and quite another to pretend something happened to influence that decision.
Now we know the price of Jeters integrity...getting on base.
It's one thing to be awarded the base erroneously by the ump, and quite another to pretend something happened to influence that decision.
Guys I have a different take on this. IMO this is just one example of why this game is so special and so great. What Jeter did is simply part of the game imo. Stealing signs? Picking up on signs? Pitchers tipping pitches? Faking an over throw? Faking a cut? Framing a pitch, to a certain degree? Waving fair from the 3rd base coaches box trying to influence and umpire on a very close call? Shaking pitches when no sign has been given? Acting like the baseball hit you? Acting like you fouled that squibber off your foot? Knowing you missed that tag but showing the ball and sprinting off the field? Faking a steal attempt to draw in the mif's? Faking a passed ball - where is it - then hosing the runner? Crowding the plate with your jersey loose hoping an inside pitch catches a piece? There are so many more I could go on for a while.
Jeter was just doing what baseball players do imo. He was "playing" the game. I would bet that Yankee's fans saw it as Jeter just being Jeter and showing how savvy he is. Doing what it takes to help his team out anyway he can.
If I can pick up on your signals I am going to use that to my advantage if I can. Is that wrong? If I can fake a cut and get your runner leaning is that wrong? If I can act like the ball hit me and reach base is that wrong?
I know some will disagree I understand and I see your point of view and I am cool with that. But to me its simply baseball.
Jeter was just doing what baseball players do imo. He was "playing" the game. I would bet that Yankee's fans saw it as Jeter just being Jeter and showing how savvy he is. Doing what it takes to help his team out anyway he can.
If I can pick up on your signals I am going to use that to my advantage if I can. Is that wrong? If I can fake a cut and get your runner leaning is that wrong? If I can act like the ball hit me and reach base is that wrong?
I know some will disagree I understand and I see your point of view and I am cool with that. But to me its simply baseball.
I don't blame Jeter in the least and agree that he was just playing the game. I also agree that it would be real easy and quick to look at the replay once and say, "Hey, the ball hit the knob of the bat. His left hand wasn't even on the bat." Just get it right. Whether that means having a challenge system or what. That replay showed what the football officials call "indisputable video evidence".
Some can sell better than others.
quote:there has GOT to be some type of instant replay or coaches challenge system in place by MLB leadership.
I like the idea of the coaches challenge. Give each team one per game. If they use it and are right, they keep it alive to continue to use. If they use it and lose, it's gone for the game.
While Maddon was fuming on the field, he later admitted he admired Jeter's trickery, continuing to shake his hand from the vibration of the ball hitting his bat.
"There's several thespians throughout baseball," Maddon said. "I thought Derek did a great job, and I applaud it, because I wish our guys would do the same thing." (from TBRay website)
As a Rays fan and partial season ticket holder, I'm just glad we won. Three phenom games. Go Rays!
"There's several thespians throughout baseball," Maddon said. "I thought Derek did a great job, and I applaud it, because I wish our guys would do the same thing." (from TBRay website)
As a Rays fan and partial season ticket holder, I'm just glad we won. Three phenom games. Go Rays!
Simply said: it is baseball the way baseball was meant to be played.
It also shows why Derek is MR YANKEE!!!
It also shows why Derek is MR YANKEE!!!
Coach May said what I think. Good job Coach.
quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
Guys I have a different take on this. IMO this is just one example of why this game is so special and so great. What Jeter did is simply part of the game imo. Stealing signs? Picking up on signs? Pitchers tipping pitches? Faking an over throw? Faking a cut? Framing a pitch, to a certain degree? Waving fair from the 3rd base coaches box trying to influence and umpire on a very close call? Shaking pitches when no sign has been given? Acting like the baseball hit you? Acting like you fouled that squibber off your foot? Knowing you missed that tag but showing the ball and sprinting off the field? Faking a steal attempt to draw in the mif's? Faking a passed ball - where is it - then hosing the runner? Crowding the plate with your jersey loose hoping an inside pitch catches a piece? There are so many more I could go on for a while.
Jeter was just doing what baseball players do imo. He was "playing" the game. I would bet that Yankee's fans saw it as Jeter just being Jeter and showing how savvy he is. Doing what it takes to help his team out anyway he can.
If I can pick up on your signals I am going to use that to my advantage if I can. Is that wrong? If I can fake a cut and get your runner leaning is that wrong? If I can act like the ball hit me and reach base is that wrong?
I know some will disagree I understand and I see your point of view and I am cool with that. But to me its simply baseball.
Agree with everything here. Most everything in baseball can be considered cheating because you are deceiving the other team. There are aspects of the game that is cheating - steroids, corked bats and stuff like that but trying to give your team an advantage is good baseball.
I think Jeter was just competing UNTIL he let / called out the trainer. That was taking it too far. Last night on ESPN Maddon said he had no problem with what Jeter did and expected his players to do the same thing. The things that ARod did in the past was wrong because it crosses a line.
I'm on the fence with instant replay - in cases like this yeah I can see why it should be used but any system you come up with is going to slow the game down. It already has a bad reputation for being slow so why add to that? Overall umps do make the vast majority of calls correctly. Even NFL refs miss calls that aren't challenged or can't be replayed. Baseball game is a game that has a flow to it. Most of the game it's a deliberate consistent flow and then it speeds up just to slow back down. You throw instant replay and that flow is messed up.
How long was the delay while he faked an injury? 
I agree that deception is most definitely part of the game but isn't getting calls right by the ump equally as important? Especially when they blow one this easy to correct?
I think far too often they blow these calls and then circle the wagons in order to "look good". Many of the MLB umps think the game is more about them than the players...jmho
I agree that deception is most definitely part of the game but isn't getting calls right by the ump equally as important? Especially when they blow one this easy to correct?
I think far too often they blow these calls and then circle the wagons in order to "look good". Many of the MLB umps think the game is more about them than the players...jmho
If you can pull it off out on the field, with everyone watching, without using material other than what's allowed (i.e., sandpaper, drugs, binoculars, etc.), then I think it should fall under Coach May's definition of "playing the game".
Some stuff might get criticized as being "bush" or "bad form", but the fan's perception/critique is also a part of the game, isn't it.
If this play gets taken away with an instant replay review, then its pretty much dead and buried right then and there. How fun is that?
Some stuff might get criticized as being "bush" or "bad form", but the fan's perception/critique is also a part of the game, isn't it.
If this play gets taken away with an instant replay review, then its pretty much dead and buried right then and there. How fun is that?
The most important thing on any call, in any sport, is to get it right IMO. Instant replay helps get it right.
Would anybody like to lose a championship on a phony trick? And if this was not Jeter what would the call have been?
Would anybody like to lose a championship on a phony trick? And if this was not Jeter what would the call have been?
When live in a day and age where everything is suppose to be perfect. The fields are pristine. I mean perfect. Not a blade of grass out of place. The infield dirt is perfect. The mound , home plate , etc etc. We want to make every call perfect. We want to put cameras on the field and make sure we get every call perfect. We want to take the human element out of the game because we want it to be perfect. Use a gizmo to make sure every pitch is called right. On and on it goes.
The human element and the fact that it is not perfect makes the game what the game is. I dont want any instant replay. I want the umpires to make the call and thats it. Yes I know that will mean that it will not be perfect. But to me its perfect the way it is. Let football and other sports have their instant replay. Baseball should remain what it is and what it has always been. This is just my opinion. That does not mean its right. Its just the way I see it.
The human element and the fact that it is not perfect makes the game what the game is. I dont want any instant replay. I want the umpires to make the call and thats it. Yes I know that will mean that it will not be perfect. But to me its perfect the way it is. Let football and other sports have their instant replay. Baseball should remain what it is and what it has always been. This is just my opinion. That does not mean its right. Its just the way I see it.
Coach May, I don't want it perfect, just right/correct. Instant replay is already in baseball, adding one coaches challenge per game won't lessen this great sport.
I understand that. I know they already have instant replay. But it comes down to what you call right. I call right - The umpire making the call and you dealing with it. Others call right - instant replay.
How long will it be before we have a machine behind the plate with a red and green light. Red for strike , green for ball? A lazer on the foul lines like Tennis has? No more emphatic calls by the man in blue? No more arguments and drama? Just a machine making the calls? How long will it be before the game becomes so Right that its just all wrong?
Again its just me. Its the just the way I think it should be. Whats wrong with the way the game has always been? But that's just me. I understand that others don't think like me or feel the same way. You know Im a little out there anyway.
How long will it be before we have a machine behind the plate with a red and green light. Red for strike , green for ball? A lazer on the foul lines like Tennis has? No more emphatic calls by the man in blue? No more arguments and drama? Just a machine making the calls? How long will it be before the game becomes so Right that its just all wrong?
Again its just me. Its the just the way I think it should be. Whats wrong with the way the game has always been? But that's just me. I understand that others don't think like me or feel the same way. You know Im a little out there anyway.
quote:I dont want any instant replay.
Even for HR's?
quote:I want the umpires to make the call and thats it.
The flip side to that is you then give the umpires even greater power that many have shown they are perfectly willing to exploit.
Honest mistakes happen and are absolutly part of the game. I don't think anyone could argue that point. I just think history has shown that some umps are more than willing to abuse the power they have.
It happens and it happens a lot.
Flip side of the coin
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So why don't we want to judge umpires on a relative scale of "how good they are", just like the athletes? I think it would be great to open the paper and see some kind of accuracy ranking for the umpires, and watch them duke it out for the number one spot every week, just like the batting title.
I think its ok to want them to strive to be perfect, but I don't want to see baseball players getting measured with machines.
At least not behind the plate. I want to see the pitcher work the umpire's strike zone, just like he was a part of the weather conditions that day.
I think its ok to want them to strive to be perfect, but I don't want to see baseball players getting measured with machines.
At least not behind the plate. I want to see the pitcher work the umpire's strike zone, just like he was a part of the weather conditions that day.
Coach May
I am with you all the way--I, too, like the game the way it is.
Part of the game as a player and coach is knowing the umpires traits and dealing with them---having your players aware of the plate umpires strike zone is key---knowing which umpires have "ears" which enable you to get inside their head.
Good calls, Bad calls !!!---they are part of the game
To be honest I do not think Jeter "sold" the call last nite--I think the umpire saw the ball come off Jeter's elbow but never saw the ball hit the end of the bat first.
It is all part of the great game of baseball---I say leave it the way it is
I am with you all the way--I, too, like the game the way it is.
Part of the game as a player and coach is knowing the umpires traits and dealing with them---having your players aware of the plate umpires strike zone is key---knowing which umpires have "ears" which enable you to get inside their head.
Good calls, Bad calls !!!---they are part of the game
To be honest I do not think Jeter "sold" the call last nite--I think the umpire saw the ball come off Jeter's elbow but never saw the ball hit the end of the bat first.
It is all part of the great game of baseball---I say leave it the way it is
Here's my favorite example:
If you use a machine to judge balls and strikes, who's going to ring up a player for not protecting the outside corner on a 3-2 count? When a pitcher puts a perfect 2-seam fastball pitch out there, just outside the black, exactly where catch wants it, (who frames it perfectly), and then blue jumps out of his shoes to punch him out...batter stands there with the incredulous look...stadium erupts, either loving it or hating it depending on who's the home crowd...
I freakin LOVE that.
If you use a machine to judge balls and strikes, who's going to ring up a player for not protecting the outside corner on a 3-2 count? When a pitcher puts a perfect 2-seam fastball pitch out there, just outside the black, exactly where catch wants it, (who frames it perfectly), and then blue jumps out of his shoes to punch him out...batter stands there with the incredulous look...stadium erupts, either loving it or hating it depending on who's the home crowd...
I freakin LOVE that.
quote:Originally posted by wraggArm:
Here's my favorite example:
If you use a machine to judge balls and strikes, who's going to ring up a player for not protecting the outside corner on a 3-2 count? When a pitcher puts a perfect 2-seam fastball pitch out there, just outside the black, exactly where catch wants it, (who frames it perfectly), and then blue jumps out of his shoes to punch him out...batter stands there with the incredulous look...stadium erupts, either loving it or hating it depending on who's the home crowd...
I freakin LOVE that.
I think you just nailed the argument for not having replay.
JMO, based on my own moral code, Jeter went too far on that one. I also understand that many consider it within the way the game is played and I don't feel that they're wrong. Like I tell my kids, you have to live up to your own moral code or you won't like yourself, but don't expect others to live up to your moral code or you won't like anybody.
What I told the kids who played for me was that you didn't have to ever let the umpire know that they'd missed a call in your favor but that you shouldn't go out of your way to deceive an umpire. I can live with picking the glove up on a ball you've trapped to show the umpire that you have possesion of the ball as long as the player doesn't literally tell the umpire that he caught the ball. I don't have a problem with backing off an inside pitch and taking first or a ball call but I did think Jeter's act was a bit extreme and was over the line.
Fortunately, the situation will take care of itself. It didn't affect the outcome of the game and from here on out umpires are not going to give Jeter the benefit of calls quite the same way they have in the past.
What I told the kids who played for me was that you didn't have to ever let the umpire know that they'd missed a call in your favor but that you shouldn't go out of your way to deceive an umpire. I can live with picking the glove up on a ball you've trapped to show the umpire that you have possesion of the ball as long as the player doesn't literally tell the umpire that he caught the ball. I don't have a problem with backing off an inside pitch and taking first or a ball call but I did think Jeter's act was a bit extreme and was over the line.
Fortunately, the situation will take care of itself. It didn't affect the outcome of the game and from here on out umpires are not going to give Jeter the benefit of calls quite the same way they have in the past.
From catchers framing pitches, to phantom OF catches that were actually trapped, to mid infielders sweep tags and dp's, to 1B coming off the base early, it's all part of the game.
If it would have been a KC Royal, the play would have been overlooked by the press and not even talked about here.
If the play would have been done by a player from "your" team it would be applauded as smart team baseball. If against "your" team it may be jeered.
Personally I'm giving the credit to Jeter's past actress girlfriends who sacrificed late nights teaching Derek his thespian talents.
If it would have been a KC Royal, the play would have been overlooked by the press and not even talked about here.
If the play would have been done by a player from "your" team it would be applauded as smart team baseball. If against "your" team it may be jeered.
Personally I'm giving the credit to Jeter's past actress girlfriends who sacrificed late nights teaching Derek his thespian talents.
quote:
The sad thing about that video is that the ump was right in that case, the pitch wasn't particularly close to hitting the hitter, but after he strikes out the moron goes on to get himself ejected for being a moron.
The sad thing about the Yankees video is that the ump blew the call and Maddon was sent to the showers for being right. Maddon did exactly what he should do in that case, but so did Jeter.
I was watching this game live on MLB Network when this took place.
What I don't understand is how the homeplate umpire didn't hear the the ball hit the bat. It was obvious. I also don't understand how umpires get together to discuss it and all of them got the call wrong. Everyone on the field knew that it hit the bat.
Maddon was asking for a explanation when one of the other umpires kept coming at Maddon. I think Ozzie Guillen said it best ealier in the season when he said " the fans aren't coming to the ballpark to see the umps". The umps act like they never make a mistake and won't change a call because of being embarrassed. The exception would be Jim Joyce.
What I don't understand is how the homeplate umpire didn't hear the the ball hit the bat. It was obvious. I also don't understand how umpires get together to discuss it and all of them got the call wrong. Everyone on the field knew that it hit the bat.
Maddon was asking for a explanation when one of the other umpires kept coming at Maddon. I think Ozzie Guillen said it best ealier in the season when he said " the fans aren't coming to the ballpark to see the umps". The umps act like they never make a mistake and won't change a call because of being embarrassed. The exception would be Jim Joyce.
I'm not sure why people are outraged that Maddon got tossed. He kept arguing that it was a foul ball but he's not going to win that argument. The ump will not change his call because the ump thinks he made the right call. It's not a conspiracy by the umps to cheat the Rays and toss Maddon. The plate ump thought it was a hit by pitch and he was sticking with his call. Maddon thought it was a foul ball and he was sticking with his argument. Only one outcome now - Maddon's getting ejected.
Nothing wrong with that. It's part of the game.
Nothing wrong with that. It's part of the game.
This is no different than trapping a ball in the outfield and selling it as a catch; swiping a tag on a runner and missing them but selling the tag; getting away w missing a base while running the bases.
It is part of the game and I think Jeter was masterful in getting on base!
FYI, I am a Red Sox fan!
It is part of the game and I think Jeter was masterful in getting on base!
FYI, I am a Red Sox fan!
Oops, didn't mean to steal your thoughts RZ1; I didn;t see your post.
I agree w rz1!
I agree w rz1!
quote:Originally posted by vladfan:
What I don't understand is how the homeplate umpire didn't hear the the ball hit the bat. It was obvious. I also don't understand how umpires get together to discuss it and all of them got the call wrong. Everyone on the field knew that it hit the bat.
It was obvious from your couch and while watching the replays. However, "real time" is a whole different POV. Does anyone really think that the umps got together and thought that for the good of baseball we'll give Jeter the base even though they knew the ball hit the bat. One ump made a call and no one could conclusively say it was the wrong call.
My gut says they got together and the head ump asked if any one could say that they were 100% sure the call was wrong..........no one stepped forward and the call stood. The best part about baseball is the human factor as that is what keeps it a "fans" game.
quote:Originally posted by coach2709:
I'm not sure why people are outraged that Maddon got tossed. He kept arguing that it was a foul ball but he's not going to win that argument. The ump will not change his call because the ump thinks he made the right call. It's not a conspiracy by the umps to cheat the Rays and toss Maddon. The plate ump thought it was a hit by pitch and he was sticking with his call. Maddon thought it was a foul ball and he was sticking with his argument. Only one outcome now - Maddon's getting ejected.
Nothing wrong with that. It's part of the game.
I am not saying that Maddon didn't say the magic words to get the toss. What I am saying is how do you get that call wrong? It was loud. If that was the sound of his arm it would have been broken. The umpire crew got together and still got it wrong. There needs to be a system to evaluate umpires performance.
Watch the video again. You can hear the ball hit the bat. The ump is the third closest person to that play and he can't hear that?
Jeter wears the hard plastic elbow guard. With 20,000 fans in a dome, it might be hard to distinguish between a ball hitting the knob or the guard on sound alone.
quote:Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
Jeter wears the hard plastic elbow guard. With 20,000 fans in a dome, it might be hard to distinguish between a ball hitting the knob or the guard on sound alone.
Ummmmmm.....OK? He grabbed his wrist not his elbow.