Anyone Else Ever Had a Kid Train Tirelessly, but Show No Results?

I’m guessing based on where you live and the time of year he’s not in mid season form. Obviously he wants to be the best high school player he can be. But, in terms of the next level he has plenty of time before the summer.

If it turns out the numbers don’t change you don’t put your head down. You adjust. You look at the numbers, where they fit in college ball and attack the target.

Good luck.

What was his size/weight before and after the months of lifting?

5'10" to 5'11"

165 or so to 180 lbs. now

First, having the desire to work to get better is an awesome trait and will help with everything. From your description, sounds like maybe he's doing too much? At 17, is he looking to play in college? Is he looking to be a pitcher or position player? May want to start more targeted training and measuring the metrics more frequently so you have an idea if they are working.

I will say if your son is new to strength training, even the worst programs help (as long as you don't get injured). It's like a cheat code.

My son had trouble getting his 60 time below 7.  He worked for months with a speed and agility guy, was lifting and doing other training, we read all kinds of advice, the number didn't budge.  Summer after junior year, he started running every day, we videoed him, looked at every piece of his body we could think of, compared him to people running fast 60s on youtube, counted the number of strides, watched videos of famous sprinters, etc.  After about 2 months, something happened - either his body changed, or some piece of technique clicked in his head, or both, and he dropped .3+ seconds.  It didn't happen in the timeframe he wanted, but it did happen.   He learned a lot about how to study technique and apply it.  What I'm saying is, your son may be at a physical limit for now but at some point will make a jump, or he may need some other piece of mechanics in his brain.

When my son was about that age we used to frequently measure 60 time, exit velo and OF velo.  The gains were hard to predict and the measurements could vary wildly from week to week.  I would not put a huge amount of stock into one day's measurement, especially if you were testing all of these things on the same day.  You could also check in with the pitching coach and speed coach for feedback.

1" taller & +15lbs in 3 months does not seem insignificant to me!   I would bet the measurables will soon follow

Small sample size.  Keep working and test more regularly.  He could have also been “muscling up” his attempts to post numbers and not being fluid and athletic.  

Your focus is on the wrong things. Instead of worrying about 60 time work on  being more explosive. Become a better base runner. Instead of worrying about exit velo learn how to hit the outside pitch to the opposite field. Understand situational hitting. Become a better hitter. Instead of worrying about throwing velo work on improving release, accuracy, and knowing where to throw the ball. Become a better fielder. Become a better player and the improvement in metrics will take care of itself. So many  people have the cart in front of the horse.

My 2021 son had a similar experience.  Kids develop in different ways.  From Soph year to Junior year he trained a ton, and 60 time stayed at 7.8

6 months later he just ran a 7.5 ... he still looks like a teenager.  Once he fills out more into a man sized body the 60 time will go down

Adbono

Can the young man read the bat, read the ball, read the field, the umpire, opposing pitcher, the air, the wind. What  are the  “metrics “ for the student of the game.

Bob

@Consultant posted:

Adbono

Can the young man read the bat, read the ball, read the field, the umpire, opposing pitcher, the air, the wind. What  are the  “metrics “ for the student of the game.

Bob

Yes, sir! All the things you mentioned can’t be measured but those things determine if a kid is a good player more than 60 time, exit velo & throwing velo. When I see a kid with good speed I watch to see if he can use it to impact the game. Does he put pressure on the defense? Does he look for the opportunity to take the extra base and do it whenever he can?  As a baserunner or a fielder, can he read the ball off the bat? Most guys that work for PG, PBR, etc. running showcases can’t determine any of those things - so they focus on measuring metrics because that’s something they can do. Then they promote to the consumer that METRICS are THE most important thing and public buys in.

@Consultant posted:

Adbono

Can the young man read the bat, read the ball, read the field, the umpire, opposing pitcher, the air, the wind. What  are the  “metrics “ for the student of the game.

Bob

In my experience in the modern day, none of those things means anything in terms of where a kid gets recruited or whether a kid gets recruited.  You absolutely must check off certain measureable criteria to even get looked at.

A sad, but true aspect of modern day Baseball.

@3and2Fastball posted:

In my experience in the modern day, none of those things means anything in terms of where a kid gets recruited or whether a kid gets recruited.  You absolutely must check off certain measureable criteria to even get looked at.

A sad, but true aspect of modern day Baseball.

My experience is modern day and I help with recruiting at the school where I am a Volunteer Asst Coach. In the process of doing that I interact with RCs from all walks of baseball life - D1, D2, D3, JuCo & NAIA. Some young RCs that don’t have much experience recruiting look more at metrics. The more experienced coaches absolutely look for the things Bob talked about. Their focus is on how productive a prospect is in game situations. Not what his exit velo is at a showcase. Coaches that are good at evaluating talent (and many are not) look for intangibles and things that can’t be measured. Coaches that can’t evaluate talent use metrics as a crutch. Believe what you want but Bob is right

Adbono and 3 and 2;

During the 17 years of the AC games and tryouts, I initiated many conversations with College Coaches and Pro Scouts. With a Post Grad in Social Psychology, I applied that education to my interviews.

One veteran scout remarked, when I ask "what do you look for in a player"?

Bob, he said "I am projecting this pitcher in the World Series, 9 inning and bases loaded, score tied and 55,000 people at the game".

The same could be applied to a hitter or fielder. How a player reacts under pressure. College Coaches have the opportunity to coordinate with the Assistant Coaches on "evaluation" and observation principles.

As I have previously mentioned watch the player enter the field, watch his eyes, his posture, his interaction with teammates, parents, girl friend. Is the cell phone off?

Coaches will project the player on his team in a JC, Division 1, 2 ,3 or NAIA. tournament.

Bob

Also progress is not always linear. I had a kid really stagnating despite throwing a ton of stuff at him. After some rest he hit some big PRs.

Maybe he is just a bit over trained and needs a week of rest.

Also numbers are not evetything, there are other ways to improve too. Maybe he is more consistent or makes solid contact more often even if peak EV doesn't change.

If he is doing the right stuff the work should pay off long term.

The mental side of the game is what separates the great players from all the others and there isn’t enough emphasis on teaching it at the HS level and below. MLB scouts are looking for more than just physical tools and so are top 50 D1 programs.

I 100% agree that all those non-measurable mental things matter.  However, I think that there are many kids who have BOTH.  So you can't just say "but he can really play," because there are plenty of kids who can really play, some with better measurable numbers than others.  Personally, I wish I had understood the meaning of the measurables earlier.

@adbono posted:

My experience is modern day and I help with recruiting at the school where I am a Volunteer Asst Coach. In the process of doing that I interact with RCs from all walks of baseball life - D1, D2, D3, JuCo & NAIA. Some young RCs that don’t have much experience recruiting look more at metrics. The more experienced coaches absolutely look for the things Bob talked about. Their focus is on how productive a prospect is in game situations. Not what his exit velo is at a showcase. Coaches that are good at evaluating talent (and many are not) look for intangibles and things that can’t be measured. Coaches that can’t evaluate talent use metrics as a crutch. Believe what you want but Bob is right

I get it.  But you have to have certain measureables to even get looked at.

D1 coaches aren’t looking at kids who run 7.9 60’s even if their instincts are like Willie Mays and they are clutch hitters like George Brett.  Nobody is paying any attention to the kid who throws 70 across the infield etc

I disagree on the you have to have certain measureables part to some degree.  I think those depend on when you show the other stuff. The mental game, the ability to play the game, and the stuff that cannot be timed or computed.  Middle son had the measureables on every level, body size, velo, ev.  Younger son did not really have the measureables but had the success early on.  He was never a dominant speed pitching guy but had great location of multiple pitches and ice in his veins.  He is the guy that certain programs never looked at because of his lack of size and velo but those who saw him pitch multiple times liked that he gave his team a chance to win.  One top 5 P5 team HC told me that if he was 6'4" I would sign him tomorrow.  Well you can't grow 6 inches no matter what you do.  If you are a late bloomer when it comes to the other stuff you need to have numbers to get seen.  That is why I am a fan of travel ball early on rather than late if you are a very good player who does not have the intangibles.  You have to learn to compete at a high level and compete against the best to be seen.  Son finally in his sophomore year of college really got serious about working out and what he eats.  Lost 30 pounds and is in great shape.  Now trying to put it back on with muscle slowly.  But he will never be high velo guy or be 6'4".  He will dazzle you as they said on SEC network this weekend and show you four or five pitches in an at bat and still give his team a chance to win.  Measureables are great but they are not for everyone.  Some just have to outwork everyone else.  Control what you can control.

PitchingFan, and if your kid topped out at 80 mph he’d be pitching in D3

There are some basic guidelines that you can go by - but they vary for position players and pitchers and they also vary depending on the depth of any given program & the level of competition that a given HS team plays. But for a HS position player, if you are not a Varsity starter (or a significant contributor) in your Sophomore (or sometimes Junior) year it’s unlikely that you will be high on any schools list to recruit. If you do pass that litmus test then you already possess measurables that are pretty good. At that point, trying to improve pretty good measurables should not be the focus. Shaving a couple tenths of a second off a 60 time isn’t going to matter. Neither is adding 3 mph to exit velo (meaningless) or adding 3 mph to throwing velo. None of those things make a player better in a game situation. What does make those players better is learning how to more effectively use the tools they have to be more productive in game situations. Learn how to read the ball and run the bases. Hardly any HS players do that.  Learn the mental side of the game. Study the pattern of the pitcher you are facing - instead of worrying about your walk up song. Bob calls these things developing the 6th tool. I think that’s the point that PitchingFan is trying to make - and I know it’s the point that me and Consultant are trying to make. Focus on becoming a more productive player. That’s the area that can make the difference and that’s what will get people talking about you.

The kid has a good 6th tool already; in travel and HS ball, the last 3 HCs he's had, in order, have been a former NCAA head coach, a former AAA player, and a 3x former HS league state champion coach.  He's gotten and is still getting excellent coaching, and he's a strong student of the game.

... but, I've come to believe (right or wrong) that these metrics are the baseball equivalent of the SAT.  If you don't score a 1500 on the SAT, then don't even bother considering the Ivies, regardless of how strong a work ethic a child has.  If you don't throw 90 across the IF or hit 100 off the tee, then don't even consider D1.  That sort of thing.

And it's the total lack of improvement on those metrics after months of work and size increase that exasperate and stupefy me.  I appreciate all of the responses.

Seriously, you can spend a fortune on trying to make your son a better player  by increasing his speed, pitching velo, etc. but if he lacks being competitive and the things Bob and adbono mentioned you have missed what coaches are really looking for in a player. This goes for all good coaches, not just the top 50 or so.

@NotMadeOf$$ posted:

The kid has a good 6th tool already; in travel and HS ball, the last 3 HCs he's had, in order, have been a former NCAA head coach, a former AAA player, and a 3x former HS league state champion coach.  He's gotten and is still getting excellent coaching, and he's a strong student of the game.

... but, I've come to believe (right or wrong) that these metrics are the baseball equivalent of the SAT.  If you don't score a 1500 on the SAT, then don't even bother considering the Ivies, regardless of how strong a work ethic a child has.  If you don't throw 90 across the IF or hit 100 off the tee, then don't even consider D1.  That sort of thing.

And it's the total lack of improvement on those metrics after months of work and size increase that exasperate and stupefy me.  I appreciate all of the responses.

Take a good look at both sides of this discussion. On one side you have seasoned baseball people with experience playing D1, coaching college ball, scouting, running Area Code games, etc. saying that recruiting is about more than metrics. We all say that because we have been thru the process at a high level of competition and we know it to be true. On the other side of the discussion appears to be parents of HS (and maybe some D3) players that contend that recruiting is ALL about metrics. Isn’t that interesting? Maybe some of you are being told that but if you are it’s categorically false. I have been at showcases where I have heard RCs tell a kid they would be interested if the kid could just get his 60 under 7.0 - but guess what? He doesn’t mean that! That’s a throw away line because the coach doesn’t want to be honest and tell the kid he has no shot. That coach doesn’t want to run the risk of being vilified on social media or getting some other kind of backlash for telling the truth. Our society has devolved to the point where people are reluctant to tell the truth for fear of repercussions and as a result people make decisions, and act on, misinformation. IMO this is how that plays out in college baseball recruiting. Sad but true.

Son is a freshman D3 RHP....... he did Driveline for two years, spent a weekend at the Texas Baseball Ranch. No matter what he did, the velo never improved when compared to the work put in. Now to clarify, the time spent with DL and TTBR were invaluable, he learned many other things that he has incorporated into his pitching style to this day, the velo jump just never came. No matter how much work he put in, he couldn't get over the 80 hump. Now he is touching 85 and sitting 82-83. He is getting bump time as a freshman, because he is 80+% first pitch strike and 90+% of his pitches are delivered ahead in the count. Mentally, no situation scares him and when he's on the mound, he owns it. He doesn't always get the results, but when he doesn't, it doesn't phase him. He compares it to being a cornerback on an island in football, last pitch means nothing. This is what got him noticed and got him playing time as a freshman. When the velo didn't come, working on competing and being a better pitcher mentally was his focus. Its paying off now, the velo is creeping up. Last night he called me to talk about his plans for this summer, the first thing out of his mouth.........I need to work on my velo to get where I want to be.

I’m not saying it’s ONLY about metrics, that’s ridiculous.  A kid has to be able to play, that’s a given.

It simply isn’t reality that there aren’t certain benchmarks that a kid has to have with metrics, and with grades, in order to get recruited at a particular level.

Again, point out ONE pitcher in the SEC whose fastball tops out at 78.  You cannot.  It doesn’t matter if the kid can spin it like Koufax and has the grit and toughness of a World War 2 vet, there isn’t an SEC RC who will sign a kid who throws 78, or who has a 1.7 GPA, nor will they sign a position player who runs a 8.3 60

Find me one D1 middle infielder signed in the last 3 years who runs a 7.6 60 or slower.  Just one.  There are almost 300 D1 teams

@3and2Fastball posted:

I’m not saying it’s ONLY about metrics, that’s ridiculous.  A kid has to be able to play, that’s a given.

It simply isn’t reality that there aren’t certain benchmarks that a kid has to have with metrics, and with grades, in order to get recruited at a particular level.

Again, point out ONE pitcher in the SEC whose fastball tops out at 78.  You cannot.  It doesn’t matter if the kid can spin it like Koufax and has the grit and toughness of a World War 2 vet, there isn’t an SEC RC who will sign a kid who throws 78, or who has a 1.7 GPA, nor will they sign a position player who runs a 8.3 60

Find me one D1 middle infielder signed in the last 3 years who runs a 7.6 60 or slower.  Just one.  There are almost 300 D1 teams

A kid throwing 78 isn’t going to be recruited at any level of baseball in my part of the country. Neither is a MIF that can’t run. Kids like that can’t get on the field on a decent HS program in Texas. You might as well have said, “show me one SEC team that has a midget batting cleanup”

@adbono posted:

A kid throwing 78 isn’t going to be recruited at any level of baseball in my part of the country. Neither is a MIF that can’t run. Kids like that can’t get on the field on a decent HS program in Texas. You might as well have said, “show me one SEC team that has a midget batting cleanup”

OK, so now we’re getting somewhere in the conversation.  “In your part of the country”.  

This board covers the ENTIRE country.  It would be helpful if you include the caveat “in your part of the country” when you post on here, instead of including absolutes that can be misleading, especially when they don’t apply to the entire rest of the country.

There are plenty of D3 & JUCO players in the upper Midwest and Northwest who top out at 78-80, or who run 7.6 ... I know of a few JUCO players in the Midwest who run 7.8’s who can really hit who will likely land at a good D2.  

Metrics are too important to some and not important enough to others.....this is the only true absolute.

A kid I used to coach is at a really good D2 in the Northeast, tops out at 81-82.  He is a perfect example of everything I said before: incredible character, amazing in game pitcher with 4 great pitches, tons of movement on his curve and slider, 4.0 student, 34 on his ACT.  

There wasn’t a D1 in the nation that was remotely interested.  Because he didn’t have the metrics!  No sour grapes here.  It is what it is.  He’s at a fantastic academic school, will graduate with honors, and it wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if he’s a Senator or Governor someday, or the CEO of a huge business.

Nothing I post is misleading.

Adbono, you are a person with a lot of baseball experience; many people who find these threads are parents with no experience.  That was me.  My son played varsity from freshman year (no, not in Texas), he always seemed to perform as well or better than other players on his HS and travel teams, many of whom were committed to D1 schools.  His BA, ERA, etc. were better, in the same games and against good teams (and yes, now I know that those stats don't matter - but I didn't know that then).  People told us he had what you are all describing as the 6th tool.  Travel coaches said "could be D1, get his 60 time down."  Sure, now I know that you can say that to most kids.  He did not get his 60 time low enough (apparently), or the other intangibles didn't impress, so he got a bit of D1 interest, and he ended up at a great D3.  We watched as teammates got D1 offers when their 60-times went below 6.8, even though they weren't great hitters or fielders.  We watched as teammates got P5 offers when their FB hit 88 or 90, even though they got beat up by hitters or couldn't find the strike zone.  It was confusing.  We can also see that most of those kids at D1s are barely getting playing time. 

I never said that it was only about measurables, I said it was about both.  But to say that the measurables don't matter doesn't match what we saw.

@adbono posted:

I have been at showcases where I have heard RCs tell a kid they would be interested if the kid could just get his 60 under 7.0 - but guess what? He doesn’t mean that! That’s a throw away line because the coach doesn’t want to be honest and tell the kid he has no shot.

This is important for you to explain more.  WHY does the kid have no shot?  What would be actual reasons be?  How many kids with 60-times under 6.7 have no shot?  Is a "shot" really a chance to play?

Yes, some more honesty would be a good thing, at all stages.

  I don’t have the patience to unpack everything you said in that post. See Cabbagedad for that. But I will address some of it. First of all, I never said that measurables don’t matter. To a certain extent they do - but any kid that’s a good enough HS player to be recruited is gonna have pretty good measurables. My contention is that too much emphasis is being placed on metrics by players. parents, scouting services, advisors, etc. Notice I didn’t include college coaches. Pretty much the only metric that matters (absent the ridiculous examples of 7.8 sixty time and 78 mph FB) to almost every coach is FB velo - to a fault I might add. I believe, based on my own personal experience, that the better coaches recruit kids that are good players- not because they post impressive numbers. I have seen so many kids that think the way to D1 is to check the boxes : throw 90 across the diamond ✅, run a 6.8 sixty ✅, post 95 mph exit velo ✅. Hey, Twitter says I’m now a D1 prospect! Well, you can post all of the above and not be a productive player in game situations. Throwing 90 doesn’t make you a good SS or a good 3B. Running a 6.8 doesn’t mean you know how to run the bases. Posting 95 mph exit velocity doesn’t mean you can hit a 92 mph FB on the outside part of the plate to the opposite field with the game on the line. Players that get recruited to competitive D1 & D2 programs have good metrics AND they can do the things I mentioned. That’s what makes them good players. They know how to use the tools they have to make a positive impact in a GAME SITUATION. Good coaches see that right away. That’s why I say over and over that recruiting (at higher levels) is about more than metrics. Metrics mean nothing if they aren’t translated into productive play in games! That’s the part that inexperienced people seem to miss.
  It sounds like your son is in a much better situation than many of his past teammates - so good for him and good for you. Finding the right fit is the most important thing for a kid to have an overall positive experience- and it doesn’t matter if it’s D3, D1 or whatever. One of the biggest problems with recruiting is that most experienced coaches don’t want to do it. They especially don’t want to go to showcases. So the low man on the totem pole is usually who attends and many of them are very inexperienced. The ones that aren’t yet good at evaluating talent rely on numbers because it’s the easy way out for them. So now not only do you have PG, PBR, Travel Ball coaches (not the good ones), Private Instructors (not the good ones), other players, and other parents telling you that recruiting is all about posting numbers but you also have some coaches (not the good ones) telling you that too. So I guess I can see how an inexperienced parent could buy into that but I have done my best to explain to you why it isn’t so. I believe if you focus on the process of becoming the best player you can be the metrics will take care of itself as a byproduct of the process. Too many players (and parents) focus on improving metrics and ignore the part about improving as a player. The end result is a lot of kids with good numbers that aren’t really good players. I posted a quote some time ago from TCU HC Jim Schlossnagle which said “today’s players throw the ball harder, run faster, and hit the ball harder than ever before. But they don’t know how to do the things that help win games. We have to spend the entire first year with most of them teaching those things before we can put them on the field.” An exception to that comment would be current TCU freshman starting OF Elijah Nunez. I have never seen any metrics on Elijah but he attended a showcase that I scouted and I knew he could play after a saw one at bat - which was a routine ground ball to 2B that he beat out. That got my attention. Not his speed. His determination and his hustle and his attitude. I didn’t need a measurement on anything to know that he was different. I hope all that helps.

@adbono posted:

"Players that get recruited to competitive D1 & D2 programs have good metrics AND they can do the things I mentioned.  That's what makes them good players. They know how to use the tools they have to make a positive impact in a GAME SITUATION".

BINGO