Assess this statement.

I would use ALMOST with every and instead of linear I would use weight transfer to compliment there rotaion. I would say that the rotation breaks down late in the swing if it breaks and not early

DB...you guys ready to play?? We have Tuesday game with Tuscaloosa

Coach not very knowledgeable here, but during a recent clinic a gentleman from the WhiteSox organization told us that he had footage of every player who batted in either the 04' or 05' all-star game. Told us to pick one, naturally most kids wanted to see Albert. As he indicated with all the differences in each players swings, the one common theme was when they got to the load position, they were basicly the same.

Now if I listened correctly, and please correct me if I am wrong, a rotational hitter rotates on a vertical axis, where the a linear hitter has a slight forward thrust off the back foot (instep drive??). Is this correct?

quote:

...actually, every hitter in the major leagues today hits with the linear approach, not the rotational approach. every single one.

Coach, hardly anyone understands what a rotational swing means, or consists of......And, by that I do mean, hardly anyone.....

Your assessment of the hitting approaches is pretty accurate. Accomplished hitters can be very successful hitting with their mass moving forward and creating a greater force on impact with the ball. Young hitters(not all) sometimes have trouble with this approach because a stride or movement of the body can throw an unaccomplished hitters timing off. It has been my experience that until a hitter proves he can hit minor league or college pitching, he will have more success with rotational hitting because he will learn to move less and have a path to the ball that is shortest and quickest. This hitter is also learning how to make consistent contact.
I have not analyzed all big league hitters, but I know I have seen rotational hitters (Bonds) in the league.

Every baseball swing has linear and rotational elements. The biggest difference between rotational and weight-shift theories is really the degree of linear or rotational movement. The rotational hitter generally opens to a 45 degree angle with the front foot and "trades shoulders." The weight-shift hitter generally is more closed on the front foot and the shoulders turn to 90 degrees (open to the pitcher). Both systems require a strong linear shift towards the pitcher, a linear approach to initiating the hands, but both have rotational bat force with the barrel catching up with the knob (in a sense). When a hitting instructor describes a hitter as "linear" it is usually not a compliment, it usually means they are not rotational enough. However, "linear" does not mean "weight-shift." Whether a hitter is rotational (Williams) or weight-shift (Lau) there is more force from rotation than the linear elements. There is more momentum in a weight-shift system (and thus more head movement). The hands of both are linear from the initiation of the bat to full extension in front of the hitter. The rotation of the barrel comes from the wrists bringing the barrel into the hitting area. The weight-shift hitter has more linear movement with the legs. Both now are being taught to lock the head down when the front foot lands.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
Every baseball swing has linear and rotational elements.

Exactly what I was going to say. Great points. You described it as well as I have heard.

quote:

Every baseball swing has linear and rotational elements

I'm with you on this one Coach A> baseballpapa hit the nail on the head on this comment and I have said the same thing right here at HSBBWEB.

Cudos Papa,
Shep

I will say this.......Nobody on this thread understands rotation in the swing......Alot of off-base statements so far......

All MLB hitters are rotational......

Bluedog

Are you a major league hitter?

Have you made 1st Team All-American at least twice?

Do you have or ever have hit 50 HRs in 93 games in only two full college seasons?

Do you have a career college batting average of .439 in at least two college seasons?

Have you signed a professional contract?

I don't care who you are but until you can say yes to any of the above questions you ain't got nothing on the Shep

Does that rotate in your arrogant world up there somewhere?

Assess those questions

BTW, you have a PM sir.


No pun intended brother, just ego ck

Bluedog,

Do you teach every player rotational hitting (the Williams system)? I think I understand rotation in the swing. Do you teach every hitter the same points? Help me understand rotation better. What are all of us missing?

baseballpapa

You do understand rotational swing as I do and several others here and Bluedog is good about putting himself on the throne-LOL

He did this a few years back when I posted>

Get used to it cause he loves to belittle others....

Bet if he knew who you are good friends with and who you are Papa he wouldn't say things like that-LOL

BTW, apologize for my arrogance as well in previous post but I just couldn't resist

Shep

As a doctor told me once. "Just because you are paranoid, it doesn't mean everyone is NOT out to get you." I don't know everything about hitting. I do think I could learn from BlueDog. I'm just leary of the expert that knows everything. I believe we all would agree that every major league hitter is linear and rotational (I hope). That statement I have no doubt about. By the way Shep, I cannot hit my way out of a wet paper bag. My son just read these posts, he thinks there are some really good baseball minds in the website. I agree.

baseballpapa

Bet you could sell ice to eskimos though

You have a PM sir.

Shep

quote:

I will say this.......Nobody on this thread understands rotation in the swing......Alot of off-base statements so far......

All MLB hitters are rotational......

Bluedog's Post

PMs Back at cha' brothers.

Shep

Rotational / Linear, call it what you will. Most big leaguers will transfer weight. The way I look at it, as do many others is.....

When you are hitting you are delivering a back side to and thru the ball.....the ball is coming from one direction and you want to deliver something forcefull THROUGH the ball.....to do this there must be some sort of weight trasfer (OR LINEAR MOVEMENT if you will). I hate to think of it as linear. You plant your front foot and when the front heel hits the ground, and only until then, can you begin a weight transfer w/ rotaional components.

Sure you will rotate, but you want your back side to rotate TO and thru the ball....NOT to the ball and continue around it.......

The major problem w/ SPINNING (rotational swiing as I think you are speaking of) is if the back foot is stationary and spun on, it makes one very suseptable(sp?) to off-speed pitches. Everyone will get fooled once in a while and if the back foot NEVER leaves the ground and doesn't allow your back side to move TO the ball you can get beat on off-speed pitches you might otherwise be able to handle. You might not be able to drive them due to being fooled a bit but you will have something left to drive the ball as opposed to swinging over the ball and topping it or completely missing it.

This type of approach (fireing your back side to and thru the ball) concentrating on hitting the ball to the middle of the field (gap to gap if you will) will give you a better chance to handle a wider variety of pitches as well as giving you a better chance when you are fooled. If it is engrained in you to spin on your back foot you are going to have a tough time w/ off-speed pitches and it will stick out as you move up in the level of play.

If you were to try the rotational approach w/ a wood bat you would have a very short carreer. EXCEPTIONS: BIG STRONG GUYS WHO ARE PAID TO HIT THE BALL OUT OF THE BALL PARK ......ala BARRY BONDS TYPES............not many guys in the big leagues sit and spin on their back foot......even bonds has a slight weight transfer........

Before you become a critic........grab a wood bat and take some BP......Notice the flight of the ball using both teqniques......especially on balls the other way......(that's opposite field to all you novices)...........You should be able to drive the ball almost equally to either side of the field......no flares the other way.....

PRIME EXAMPLE(S):......EDGAR MARTINEZ.......others.....Rafiel Palmiero(SP?)......Jeff Kent.....Hank Aaron.....Mark McGuire(later in his carreer)......Frank Thomas......Iciro Suzuki......Mickey Mantle......Ken Griffey Jr. (btw.. how on earth does he stay inside the ball w/ that length in his front arm?*....because he gets his back elbow DOWN)........Babe Ruth.......Tony Gwynn.......Kirk Gibson......Alfonso Soriano.......Roberto Clemente......Derek Jeter....Alex Rodriguez......

An easy way to rotate TO the ball and not arond it is to ......once the front foot is down and you begin your swing is to take your back knee towards your front knee.....keeping your head behind the ball and obviously not getting your weight out over your front foot before you hit the ball.........

Now that was a great post!

Thanks Indiana!

Shep

Thanks Shep.....

LO

All I'm saying is that none of you understand rotation in the swing......That's not arrogant, at all......It's just a fact......

I thought I did a bunch of different times.....Just like you people think you do......But, I really didn't and neither do any of you......Rotation is about how to use the middle properly.....Physics and bio-mechanics.......This has to be studied and trial and errored many times over and over before you can even begin to understand it.....You must learn the physics and bio-mechanics involved from someone who knows this stuff well to get on the right track.....That list of people is very small.....

You won't just discover how rotation works, you gotta learn it from one of these people.....And, they aren't people in organized baseball establishment circles.....You will find these people elsewhere......

So Bluedog.....shall we put these people you speak of in the batters box and fire fast balls at them and let them tell us how to hit.....

Or shall we go to people who have played the game at a high level and rely on them for their trial and error experiences?

The list I gave was rather short......How about almost EVERY big leaguer.....and I did say ALMOST.....

Buy the 500 HR hitters club tape.....every guy on it gets off of their back side except Ted Williams........

Like I said earlier......Grab a Wood Bat and get in there......BP from 50ft.....approx. 60mph....drive the ball to the middle of the field.......then let me spin a few.....sit back on your back leg and spin......you will not drive the ball middle/other way....can't happen....period.....

Try it before you buy it.........

Bluedog

I know what your saying but don't under-estimate some of us because we have much experience with a woodbat actually in our hands and been there.

Not to mention the countless hours of trial and error and evaluations and writing scouting reports and taking biomechanics anatomy kinesiology and attended numerous film sessions relating to mechanics and actually put in hours upon hours of practicing the correct ways even as adult...etc etc etc

Get the picture?

This is not to say your not an A+ student because I happen to think you are

Just remember, when it's all said and done,
a bunch of us are also A+ students of the rotational aspects of baseball related movements that must be INTERNALIZED in order to achieve the pinnacle of success.

Shep Does Care about your Input
Sincerely

And Bulldog.....I do not mean any of what I said in a condesending way......

Please do not take it that way.....

quote:

You plant your front foot and when the front heel hits the ground, and only until then, can you begin a weight transfer w/ rotaional components

This statement is better than what most people say about rotation in the swing, but, not accurate.....Actually, MLB hitters rotate into foot plant.....The middle begins the rotation and forces the front foot to the ground....Weight shift momentum is stopped and turned into rotation before the front foot hits the ground, not after.....

May I ask at what level did you stop playing?

Try what you just explained and then tell me how it is possible......

you cannot begin to fire your backside to the ball untill your front heel has touched the ground.....there is no torque.....

When your front foot strikes the ground you should be mostly closed (hitters will differ a touch).....And I might add that the only decision made at the plate is to NOT swing....

Your view only reinforces my view, when a hitter is fooled.....by your account there would nothing to deliver to the ball when fooled on an off-speed pitch....

LOW, rotation in the swing isn't about front side or back side.......It's about how the middle works......

The very few people who are great at teaching rotational technique hardly ever even mention front or back side.....They teach how to move the middle.......And, it's not about the feet or the hands and arms........It's about loading and unloading the big muscles properly using the middle as a power source.....

There is weight shift momentum but the momentum created is what is important not so much the weight shift......Some hitters create enough momentum without a big weight shift and some don't.......

Hitters who spin, and many amateur hitters do, aren't rotating......Spinning is not rotation.....Spinning results when rotation is not taught properly.....And, that is what is happening with coaches who think they understand rotation and don't......Which, as I said before, is most all coaches who are trying to teach rotation......

This is my point.....Coaches shouldn't try to teach rotation if they don't understand the physics and bio-mechanics involved in rotation......They simply can't do it.....

Bluedog.....

Try this for me.....stride to hit, and when your front foot hits the ground only make contact w/ the ground w/ the ball of your front foot...and keep it there.....now rotate to swing, keeping only the ball of your front foot on the ground throughout the swing......how forcefull is it?

Now do the same but notice once your front heel touches the ground how much forcefull it is for you to fire your back side to the ball.....

This is in rebutal, only if I understood you correctly.....You saying that the rotation begins BEFORE the front foot even touches the ground....

Bulldog.....

I would also like to get your thoughts on how a "rotational" swing can help one handle the variety of pitches they are sure to see......

I must say.....I have NEVER heard the words rotaional swing or linear swing in or near the batting cage in my 17 years involved w/ college and professional baseball........

Front side, back side, head, hands, bat path, pass, etc.....yes....but not the rotational/linear debate.......

quote:

And I might add that the only decision made at the plate is to NOT swing....

LOW, To swing is a conscience decision made by the brain.......Not to swing is, also.......So is when to swing......All this is a brain event......This stuff isn't taught.....This should never be messed with.....

Technique is taught, timing shouldn't be messed with......

The difference between a fastball and an offspeed pitch is roughly 1/10th of a second.....If the middle is being used properly, a hitter can easily hold the stride for that long......However, if he is going backside to front side, he can't......

Bulldog ....

So who was the best pitcher you ever faced?

The best hitter I ever face was Frank Thomas.....

I'm just trying to get an idea to the level of stuff you have tried your theories on.....

I try not to talk about a rotational swing....I talk about rotation in the swing......I don't like the linear-rotational choice of words myself.....And, I do believe those words confuse and frustrate coaches......In fact, I know they do......

Bulldog ...

And when you answer the question, Who was the toughest pitcher you ever faced?....please add why?

I just completely disagree w/ you.....

And getting to the decision making process.....the only decision a hitter makes is NOT to swing is very true.....It is a VERY important part of timeing.....So am I to believe that a hitter sees the ball and then decides to stride / or generate momentum, and say to himself "wow, that looks good, I think I'll swing".....?

LOW, all these things you say for me to do is a smokescreen to me.....I don't mean that with disrespect to you.......I want you to understand that I don't count on the legs for power or balance in the swing.......You do.....You always have......I understand that.....I have done it your way for a long time.....Not anymore.....

I understand your way.....You do not understand my way.......You haven't been on the journey I have to learn this rotation stuff.....Many times I thought I understood it, only to produce the spinning hitters that you talk about.......I have done that......So, when I see coaches do the same, I know they don't understand rotation.....They are not far enough along on their learning journey.......

Bulldog...

Brother, you have lost me......I have no idea what you are talking about.......

It would help if you explained what you speak of instead of telling me I don't understand.....

BTW....you still have not answered my questions....

Bulldog..

Where in the Sunny South are you?...perhaps we can get together and discuss this...I feel it would be much easier.....


I travel and am in the south on occassion.....

Bulldog....

post a video of what you speak of.....I would love to see it...

LOW, without confusing the point.......

The hitter has half a second or less to recognize the location and speed of the pitch and decide to swing, or not.....The swing itself takes a minimum of half that time.....The brain takes some of that time for decision making after the eyes take up some of the time and signal the brain......

So where do you believe the ball is when the brain makes it's decision not to swing......

The difference between a fastball and an offspeed pitch is roughly 1/10th of a second.....This is exactly why MLB hitters must rotate into footplant......Until their middle begins the rotation, the foot stays in the air.....The rotation forces the foot down to the ground......They don't land on the front foot and wait.....

quote:

.So am I to believe that a hitter sees the ball and then decides to stride / or generate momentum, and say to himself "wow, that looks good, I think I'll swing".....?

Yes.....And, if a coach understands rotation in the swing, this can be taught.....But, only if he understands....

OF COURSE THEY DO NOT LAND ON THEIR FRONT FOOT AND WAIT....I never said that.....you go face 90 and see if you can decide to swing after he lets go of the ball.......

One must get himself in a position to hit on every pitch......that means that as the arm starts forward (one can be picky and tell me to the tenth of a second) the hitter must anticipate the ball will be a strike or in a zone he is looking for (situational hitting perhaps) and if it is there he just continues what he started......If the ball is not of his liking he has only ONE decision as opposed to TWO...that decision is NOT to swing.....