http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/16/MNQ1TDKSG.DTL
Barry Bonds indicted on 4 perjury counts, obstruction of justice
quote:Call me cynical but kind of hoping AROD's name is in that soon to be released Mitchell report Big Grin
The same thought crossed my mind. What happened to ARod "testing the market"? He sure seemed to quickly circle back to the Yankees to get a quick deal done, before hearing what the market had to offer.
Say it ain't so.
Selig's guys are re-writing that report ... his guys are also selecting Bond's jury poolquote:Call me cynical but kind of hoping AROD's name is in that soon to be released Mitchell report Big Grin
Orlando I am going to disagree with you a little if you don't mind. I don't think Bonds will roll on anybody. He will fight this to the bitter end. His arrogance and self-righteousness will not allow him to admit guilt. Plus, he still has the race card to play and no doubt he will. A jury has to be selected from the Bay area and it only takes one Bonds lover to get on the jury to hang them. This is not one of the better Federal Indictment's I have ever read. I was extremely suprised that Marion Jones pleaded. I would be shocked if Bonds pleads.
As for the evidence against Bonds, somebody from the inside of Balco is going to have to testify about the record keeping. I haven't heard who that would be. If they can link the tests with the record keeping they may have enough to convict him. If the connections between the results and test are tenuous they may have some problems.
I find it interesting that the Yankees are the only ones signing anybody at this time. I wonder how much the Mitchell report has to do with that?
As for the evidence against Bonds, somebody from the inside of Balco is going to have to testify about the record keeping. I haven't heard who that would be. If they can link the tests with the record keeping they may have enough to convict him. If the connections between the results and test are tenuous they may have some problems.
I find it interesting that the Yankees are the only ones signing anybody at this time. I wonder how much the Mitchell report has to do with that?
quote:Call me cynical but kind of hoping AROD's name is in that soon to be released Mitchell report Big Grin
That is kind of scary! Why is anyone "hoping" for that???? Has he been accused of something? Or is it just that he hits too many home runs?
Is this the way it was back in the 1600s in Salem?
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:quote:Call me cynical but kind of hoping AROD's name is in that soon to be released Mitchell report Big Grin
That is kind of scary! Why is anyone "hoping" for that???? Has he been accused of something? Or is it just that he hits too many home runs?
Is this the way it was back in the 1600s in Salem?
Wow, I find that statement scary too PG.
As for Arod, though some disagree, I like him (so do the Yankees obviously). Nice to see he may live out his career in pinstrips, the way they used to do it.
If he fulfills his potential, especially in the post-season, he will probably be widely regarded as the best ever.
That is certainly a strange sub-plot to this whole mess isn't it? Yes it does have a witch hunt feel to it (not that I'm old enough to recall that first hand). Perhaps now we're going to be seeing more fans rooting against players, or rather for discovery of dirt on players from other teams in hopes of seeing the competitive balance tilt in favor of their own favorite team. What if nobody comes out of this mess unscathed? Whose hero, and whose favorite team is going to be next? This is gonna get ugly.
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:Selig's guys are re-writing that report ... his guys are also selecting Bond's jury poolquote:Call me cynical but kind of hoping AROD's name is in that soon to be released Mitchell report Big Grin
The indictment's timing obviously raises red flags, unless they have developed additional evidence in the past year or two. If not, it appears they let him finish his homerun record chase, filling ballparks along the way, only to kick him to the feds, or give the feds the greenlight, as he limps off the field.
quote:Originally posted by Frank Martin:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/16/MNQ1TDKSG.DTL
Barry Bonds indicted on 4 perjury counts, obstruction of justice
This statement pretty much sums it up. He has lied before a Federal grand jury. It carries a much stiffer penalty than steriod use.
BTW-Greg Anderson was also ordered released from jail.
isn't it interesting of what his lawyer said though something in the line of we will find out the truth instead of this little snips from a favored opinion, or something like that but it is interesting that if Bonds lawyer is saying that could it be that all this is just going on hear say and not facts or very little facts, i mean it is an indictment not a sentence.
Also i am byass becuase i hope he is found innocent becuase that is the way the game is played now with steriods, MLB did it and it was legal and when they did it no one said anything now it is oh man got to stop everything and now he is evil, people hated bonds before all this steriods stuff was out and this just gives them something else to try and really go after him because he is so good and his arrogance and not opening up to the media, its alot like A-rod like you guys said, some are hoping his name is on the list, why prob. becuase he is so successful so fast, but that was the way the game was played, until last year. I am not for steriods but i am not going to look down upon players becuase they did what they did when it was legal.
Also i am byass becuase i hope he is found innocent becuase that is the way the game is played now with steriods, MLB did it and it was legal and when they did it no one said anything now it is oh man got to stop everything and now he is evil, people hated bonds before all this steriods stuff was out and this just gives them something else to try and really go after him because he is so good and his arrogance and not opening up to the media, its alot like A-rod like you guys said, some are hoping his name is on the list, why prob. becuase he is so successful so fast, but that was the way the game was played, until last year. I am not for steriods but i am not going to look down upon players becuase they did what they did when it was legal.
"Looks normal to me."
-Vince McMahon
quote:Originally posted by right arm of zeus:
Also i am byass becuase i hope he is found innocent becuase that is the way the game is played now with steriods, MLB did it and it was legal and when they did it no one said anything now it is oh man got to stop everything and now he is evil, people hated bonds before all this steriods stuff was out and this just gives them something else to try and really go after him because he is so good and his arrogance and not opening up to the media, its alot like A-rod like you guys said, some are hoping his name is on the list, why prob. becuase he is so successful so fast, but that was the way the game was played, until last year. I am not for steriods but i am not going to look down upon players becuase they did what they did when it was legal.
No, that's a common misconception. What he did wasn't legal, it was against the law, plus it was against MLB policy. MLB just chose not to enforce its own rules.
Barry was granted immunity for truthful testimony. Apparently there's ample evidence to show that he chose to lie.
Jason Giambi got the same deal..he chose to tell the truth.
quote:Originally posted by deldad:
Orlando I am going to disagree with you a little if you don't mind. I don't think Bonds will roll on anybody. He will fight this to the bitter end. His arrogance and self-righteousness will not allow him to admit guilt. Plus, he still has the race card to play and no doubt he will.
I tend to agree with you, to a point. I think Bonds thinks that he's untouchable, and he'll refuse to cooperate and stay obnoxious until the point that he realizes he's sunk..then I think he'll sing like a bird. He doesn't want to go down alone.
Wandering around the internet, a lot of people seem to be under the impression the indictment is about taking PEDs. Of course it's not, it's about commiting perjury.
I think the timing had to do with the records seized in the bust. Perhaps the MLB lobby impacts the Feds, but I don't think we have any reason to think the timing was baseball-business-related. Anyway, we have quite enough conclusions to go around jumping to right now, thank you.
The Feds tend not to issue indictments until they have a purdy durn tight case; particularly on something this high-profile, they won't want to look silly.
That was why I gave my opinion that Barry will grass on other players. Given the ex-mistress' reported testimony about his concern with how he is regarded amongst other players, he's not going to want to go down alone. (Well, he likely will on the perjury side, but the use of PEDs is the issue he (allegedly) lied about.)
I think the timing had to do with the records seized in the bust. Perhaps the MLB lobby impacts the Feds, but I don't think we have any reason to think the timing was baseball-business-related. Anyway, we have quite enough conclusions to go around jumping to right now, thank you.
The Feds tend not to issue indictments until they have a purdy durn tight case; particularly on something this high-profile, they won't want to look silly.
That was why I gave my opinion that Barry will grass on other players. Given the ex-mistress' reported testimony about his concern with how he is regarded amongst other players, he's not going to want to go down alone. (Well, he likely will on the perjury side, but the use of PEDs is the issue he (allegedly) lied about.)
quote:Wandering around the internet, a lot of people seem to be under the impression the indictment is about taking PEDs. Of course it's not, it's about commiting perjury.
Of course if he didn't take them, then he's not lying and the case is nowhere. There has to be conclusive evidence that he was using, and that's where the pundits get off calling this iron clad. Balco's records are evidently the evidence. If it were MLB's evidence behind the prosecution, then we would have a lot more to talk about.
Slightly off the subject here, but just one look at Pakistan should convince us all that a free press is the light that illuminates an open society, and in fact a very good thing.
quote:Originally posted by spizzlepop:quote:Wandering around the internet, a lot of people seem to be under the impression the indictment is about taking PEDs. Of course it's not, it's about commiting perjury.
Of course if he didn't take them, then he's not lying and the case is nowhere. There has to be conclusive evidence that he was using, and that's where the pundits get off calling this iron clad. Balco's records are evidently the evidence. If it were MLB's evidence behind the prosecution, then we would have a lot more to talk about.
This is true..but I'd be surprised if he was indicted without a mound of evidence to show that he's lying. It's possible that the prosecution has come upon additional evidence.
It's difficult (if not impossible) to separate the two -- the taking of PEDs and the lying about it with Bonds. As you said, spizzle, if he hadn't taken them, he couldn't lie about it.
But nobody was prosecuting nobody when it was just the illegal taking of drugs. To a degree, that's understandable ---- "victimless" crime (setting aside role models/impact on others in the sport --- but ya'll know what I mean), where do you start/where do you end (just prosecute Bonds or just the guys who have confessed like Giambi or where does that leave Palmerio or Byrd?), and would that really be the best use of our criminal courts' time, all things considered?
It's the (apparent) evidence that he perjured himself that will serve to get the whole PED thing out in the open. Convoluted. Guess we'll see if it's effective.
But nobody was prosecuting nobody when it was just the illegal taking of drugs. To a degree, that's understandable ---- "victimless" crime (setting aside role models/impact on others in the sport --- but ya'll know what I mean), where do you start/where do you end (just prosecute Bonds or just the guys who have confessed like Giambi or where does that leave Palmerio or Byrd?), and would that really be the best use of our criminal courts' time, all things considered?
It's the (apparent) evidence that he perjured himself that will serve to get the whole PED thing out in the open. Convoluted. Guess we'll see if it's effective.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-bondsindictmen...&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
Apparently, the evidence includes a positive steroid test from November 2000. This is getting interesting, if it's all true.
Apparently, the evidence includes a positive steroid test from November 2000. This is getting interesting, if it's all true.
Agree with Zeus and PG....
You go Barry....Until someone proves to me that what you did/took helped your eye-hand coordination, you're the best home run hitter of all time.
Won't last long...ARod is on the way and his new 10-year $275,000,000.00 contact will help him do it.
You go, Barry.
You go Barry....Until someone proves to me that what you did/took helped your eye-hand coordination, you're the best home run hitter of all time.
Won't last long...ARod is on the way and his new 10-year $275,000,000.00 contact will help him do it.
You go, Barry.
quote:Originally posted by BeenthereIL:
You go Barry....Until someone proves to me that what you did/took helped your eye-hand coordination, you're the best home run hitter of all time.
You go, Barry.
"You go, Barry"...same nonsense you've trumpeted for the last couple of years.
There's already reasearch showing that certain steroid combinations improve hand/eye coordination.
Improve the hand/eye coordination of someone that already has great hand/eye coordination...then increase fast twitch muscle fibers in someone already blessed with them...then increase the overall strength and bulk in that person, using combinations of steroids, testosterone, HGH, and other hormones, and what do you have?
Barry Bonds.
You go, Barry..if these charges are true, you're an embarrassment to the game.
You go, Barry..if these charges are true, then you go...straight to jail.
My only other question is who does he turn on? Sheffeild already is out. I doubt that Barry has enough friends in the game to turn in to the Feds. Also at this point in time what would be the benefit of Bond's testimony? Who else do they want and for what? All the big fish have already been to jail?
Orlando you are exactly right, the feds don't usually indict unless they have the goods. Also, the feds do not like when they are lied to, just ask Martha Stewart or Scooter Libby.
Orlando you are exactly right, the feds don't usually indict unless they have the goods. Also, the feds do not like when they are lied to, just ask Martha Stewart or Scooter Libby.
i think the justice system is in disarray, with all of the suspected steroid use in mlb today. they indict one guy for lieing ? whats wrong with that picture? i'd get a little giddy if they had 7 or 8 for juicing, but on the up side pete rose isn't such a bad guy after all.
2seamer....See you stalking me on these boards again.
Get a life.
You go, Barry.
Get a life.
You go, Barry.
quote:quote:
Call me cynical but kind of hoping AROD's name is in that soon to be released Mitchell report Big Grin
PG,
That is kind of scary! Why is anyone "hoping" for that????
Because MLB deserves it. They knew what was going on with the "juice" the last 10 years or so but opted to look the other way for economic reasons. So as Bonds got closer and closer to breaking Aaron's storied HR record, the pressure mounted and he became the scapegoat for MLB. What a farce! I personally think Bonds is a complete jerk, but the problem is much more wide-spread. Having someone like AROD on that list would be a real eye-opener and a major embarrassment for MLB which I'm afraid
is what it will take for MLB to finally fix the problem and restore integrity to this game. No more band-aid approach!
As for AROD, was actually hoping he'd have no other alternative but to accept that one year offer he got from the Toledo Mud Hens
quote:Originally posted by BeenthereIL:
2seamer....See you stalking me on these boards again.
Get a life.
You go, Barry.
Openly rooting for a cheater. You get slammed and flame the guy? Sorta whiney, imo. Maybe you should use BB as an example and just take it quietly.
Dad....He's been charged, no more no less.
I remember being on the boards when the two writers failed to divulge their sources for the leak of the Grand Jury transcripts so they could write their book...in jail for 2 years. Most of the people on the board defended them.
Let the scenario play out with Barry.
Everyone knew that OJ did it, too. Except the people that mattered didn't believe it.
I remember being on the boards when the two writers failed to divulge their sources for the leak of the Grand Jury transcripts so they could write their book...in jail for 2 years. Most of the people on the board defended them.
Let the scenario play out with Barry.
Everyone knew that OJ did it, too. Except the people that mattered didn't believe it.
quote:Dad....He's been charged, no more no less.
I remember being on the boards when the two writers failed to divulge their sources for the leak of the Grand Jury transcripts so they could write their book...in jail for 2 years. Most of the people on the board defended them.
Let the scenario play out with Barry.
Everyone knew that OJ did it, too. Except the people that mattered didn't believe it.
Hmmmm, neither writer/reporter went to jail.
The only guy who went to jail was Bonds trainer, Greg Anderson. He sat there for over 2 years because he would not tell the truth when given immunity. Bonds let his childhood friend and supporter sit and rot for over 2 years so Barry could play.
OJ was found liable by the civil jury who needed to decide by a preponderance of evidence, not reasonable doubt. That criminal trial was a circus before a State Court Judge.
Bonds is assigned to a Federal Court Judge who has a reputation for maintaining the integrity in the Courtroom.
But at least it is correct to say Barry has only been charged to this point.
Wouldn't it be amazing if Sheffield is a prosecution witness and testifies in ways he has spouted to the press about Bonds introducing him to steroids.
You go Barry!
I believe the 2 writers didn't go to jail because the defense attorney for Balco admitted to giving them the information...
The attorneys name was Ellerman
Didn't the attorney go to jail for a long time?
The more I think about all this, the more tend to agree with Bee> on the Mitchell report. With Bonds gone, there is really no more reason for MLB to follow through with the steroid investigation honestly. Sure they will publicly do something , perhaps more former MLB or maybe some current MiLB players will get outed, but I seriously doubt that the big names will emerge now that the big lamb has been sacrificed. Bud Selig is probably the happiest man in the world since this story broke. The whole steroid era can now be punctuated, if not swept under the rug, and Bonds will bear the biggest cross for the other users of his generation, with assist from Palmiero, Sosa, and McGwire. Lets not forget that it wasn't MLB who got Bonds, though they had their chances. MLB will sneak away from this event, with a cursory nod to the Feds and a shiny new agreement in place for HGH testing. All this really means is MLB has avoided a nasty showdown with the players union over who what and how much. And after all is said and done, a new era will begin and the fans will keep coming.
Hey Bee>, wanna go fishin?
Hey Bee>, wanna go fishin?
that looks really good!!quote:Hey Bee>, wanna go fishin?
so, after 4 yrs of picking our pockets funding an investigation, they had to come up with something & this is all they got?
no real crime, just lied during interviews (did I say allegedly?)
the feds will likely be EAGER to make a deal to avoid a 5 course meal of crow
gee, lieing to a fed interviewer seems like small change compared to lieing to a full house of congress
are those guys in jail??
disgraced??
fined?? or ... doing just fine?
quote:Originally posted by BeenthereIL:
Dad....He's been charged, no more no less.
I remember being on the boards when the two writers failed to divulge their sources for the leak of the Grand Jury transcripts so they could write their book...in jail for 2 years. Most of the people on the board defended them.
Let the scenario play out with Barry.
Everyone knew that OJ did it, too. Except the people that mattered didn't believe it.
An odd analogy to make a convoluted argument. Go OJ!
"just lied (to a Grand Jury, while under oath)".
Can't speak for anyone else, but that's a big deal to me.
Remember a guy named Nixon, who coached his aides to tell the Grand Jury, "Just tell them you can't remember"? He would've been impeached if he hadn't resigned...mainly because he coached his aides to lie to a Grand Jury.
Can't speak for anyone else, but that's a big deal to me.
Remember a guy named Nixon, who coached his aides to tell the Grand Jury, "Just tell them you can't remember"? He would've been impeached if he hadn't resigned...mainly because he coached his aides to lie to a Grand Jury.
ok, but that's "allegedly lied to a grand jury" in Bonds casequote:by H1: "just lied (to a Grand Jury, while under oath)".
Can't speak for anyone else, but that's a big deal to me.
wasn't congress hearing under oath?
and hasn't it been confirmed those guys lied?
perhaps congress doesn't want to start pointing fingers at liers, it could come back to bite 'em in the azz
Actually your post was more accurate when it said "lied", not "allegedly lied", but I'm being a smartie pants to pick on that. 
I hope the others get indicted too-Palmeiro and all his pals. Some of them just dodged ("Not here to talk about the past"-Mark M., and Sosa couldn't supposedly remember his own zip code), so they might not get a perjury rap, but I'd throw the book at the whole bunch. Bonds is perhaps no worse than all the others, but he's not better either.
I hope the others get indicted too-Palmeiro and all his pals. Some of them just dodged ("Not here to talk about the past"-Mark M., and Sosa couldn't supposedly remember his own zip code), so they might not get a perjury rap, but I'd throw the book at the whole bunch. Bonds is perhaps no worse than all the others, but he's not better either.
I am in no way defending those guys, but am trying to look at it from a legal/investigation standpoint.
I don't remember for certain if they were under oath (some members of the Administration have testified before Congress without the oath), but McGwire didn't say much of anything, and Sosa, as we all know, doesn't speak much english. Palmeiro, however, did say he hadn't taken steroids. And then tested positive for steroids --- after he testified. If there were a positive test before he testified and he was under oath, they'd have a case, but not with the currently known chronology.
Lying under oath is a big deal; it undermines the entire legal system. Ask Martha. Scooter -- it took the Prez to get him off. Bonds had a chance to come clean with impunity, was told the only way he'd get done was by perjuring himself, and apparently chose to lie anyway to continue his March To Glory. A whole lotta time, money, and progress (like the records bust) could have been advanced by Bonds having told the truth then. He's annoyed the Feds, which isn't a very good idea. But he's the Great Future HOFer Barry Bonds
I don't remember for certain if they were under oath (some members of the Administration have testified before Congress without the oath), but McGwire didn't say much of anything, and Sosa, as we all know, doesn't speak much english
. Palmeiro, however, did say he hadn't taken steroids. And then tested positive for steroids --- after he testified. If there were a positive test before he testified and he was under oath, they'd have a case, but not with the currently known chronology.Lying under oath is a big deal; it undermines the entire legal system. Ask Martha. Scooter -- it took the Prez to get him off. Bonds had a chance to come clean with impunity, was told the only way he'd get done was by perjuring himself, and apparently chose to lie anyway to continue his March To Glory. A whole lotta time, money, and progress (like the records bust) could have been advanced by Bonds having told the truth then. He's annoyed the Feds, which isn't a very good idea. But he's the Great Future HOFer Barry Bonds
quote:Originally posted by 20dad:
i think the justice system is in disarray, with all of the suspected steroid use in mlb today. they indict one guy for lieing ?
They didn't indict him for using steroids, they indicted him because they offered him immunity in exchange for truthful testimony, and he lied.