IF THIS SOFT TALK CONTINUES PRETTY SOON WE WILL BE PLAYING IN SHORTS
So, now we can add Astros' catcher Humberto Quinteras to the DL. He got runned over, last night. The play was 'clean' and, yes, he had his knee down.
quote:IF THIS SOFT TALK CONTINUES PRETTY SOON WE WILL BE PLAYING IN SHORTS
Yep, because requiring batting helmets made such a negative impact on the game of baseball.
quote:He got runned over, last night. The play was 'clean' and, yes, he had his knee down.
Yeah, he looked like he was standing right on top of the plate. The rule says the baserunner can plow him in that case. Not a fan of the rule, but that's the way it is currently.
It looked like he slipped which may have put him in that position too.. Unfortunate..
quote:Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
What is the rule at other bases? Can the runner try to dislodge the ball or bowl over the fielder to prevent the ball from being caught? Why shouldn't the rule be the same regardless of which base it is?
Well several years ago when Albert Belle was still playing I saw him blow up a second baseman on a tag. He wasn't ejected or any kind of punishment.
He was on first and a ground ball pulled the second baseman into the line. He set up to tag Belle and he brought both arms up into his cheast. He lifted him off the ground and put him on his back. He had enough time to veer off, stop or just give himself up but he lit that second baseman up.
Not sure how this really applies to the Posey and now the Quinteras situations.
Antzdad is this the play you're referring to? I'm thinking it is.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6601995
If so I'm thinking this is a whole different set of situation than the Posey one. In this video it looks as if Quintero slips with his left foot which causes him to fall down. He's giving no path to the plate for the runner. Plus the ball gets there at the exact same time as the runner. I can't tell if Quintero had the ball and lost it or if he never had it at all.
As you said his knee was on the ground which is what caused his injury. This is exactly how Posey got hurt by being on his knee.
This is what I'm talking about being careful about creating rules in the heat of the moment. Two plays that (IMO) are totally different that pretty much end up with the same outcome - a collision that leads to hurt players. Cousins was a cheap shot but what the guy in the video did wasn't a cheap shot. He took the only avenue he had.
If MLB is going to pass a rule to help protect catchers in Posey's situation they need to make sure they word it carefully so that it won't apply to the Quintero situation. That is what the NFL did when I think it was Tom Brady hurt his knee when the defensive lineman lunged for him while he was on the ground. Brady stepped into his throw which straightened his knee and the contact blew it out. I didn't see that as a cheap shot but just a freak accident that has completely changed the game. I guarantee (although they probably won't admit it) there are defensive players holding back because they don't want to get a penalty to hurt their team.
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Yeah, he looked like he was standing right on top of the plate. The rule says the baserunner can plow him in that case. Not a fan of the rule, but that's the way it is currently.
Which rule is that, exactly?
quote:Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
What is the rule at other bases? Can the runner try to dislodge the ball or bowl over the fielder to prevent the ball from being caught? Why shouldn't the rule be the same regardless of which base it is?
The rules do not differentiate between bases and the plate.
The interpretation provided to MLB umpires is:
"While contact may occur between a fielder and runner during a tag attempt, a runner is not allowed to use his hands or arms to commit an obviously malicious or unsportsmanlike act-such as grabbing, tackling, intentionally slapping at the baseball, punching, kicking, flagrantly using
his arms or forearms, etc.-to commit an intentional act of interference unrelated to running the bases. Further, if in the judgment of the umpire such intentional act was to prevent a double play, the umpire would rule the batter-runner out as well (see Section 6.3, specifically Play (4)).
Depending on the severity of the infraction, it is possible the player may be ejected for such conduct."
What is different is tradition.
quote:Which rule is that, exactly?
Now I have to wonder with the rule you posted below why it's allowed. If I'm reading that correctly, running over the catcher is not supposed to be allowed?
That's what I mean.. the rules (as I understood them) allowed a runner to plow a catcher in MLB. If that is not the case, then why do they continue to allow it to take place? If the umpires were blatently allowing a rule to be broken, wouldn't MLB step in and do something about it?
yes, coach2709, Quintero said he stepped on the bat.
I get where you're coming from about changing rules. I don't think it will happen. MLB may say things like "under consideration...winter meetings", but, as in other parts of our lives, things will stay the same 'because that's the way it is'.
I get where you're coming from about changing rules. I don't think it will happen. MLB may say things like "under consideration...winter meetings", but, as in other parts of our lives, things will stay the same 'because that's the way it is'.
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:quote:Which rule is that, exactly?
Now I have to wonder with the rule you posted below why it's allowed. If I'm reading that correctly, running over the catcher is not supposed to be allowed?
That's what I mean.. the rules (as I understood them) allowed a runner to plow a catcher in MLB. If that is not the case, then why do they continue to allow it to take place? If the umpires were blatently allowing a rule to be broken, wouldn't MLB step in and do something about it?
The enforcement of many interpretations is controlled by the players union and management. The umpires make some calls the way MLB wants them made. As has been said by someone in this thread, this is what MLB wants, or at least thinks it wants. Things change....look at balk enforcement. A while back MLB mandated to the letter balk enforcement. It lasted one season before they told the umpires to back off. Same thing happened with Sandy Alderson and the strike zone.
Bottom line, MLB management and the players union will be ones to change the enforcement of the rule or create a new rule. I believe protection of managements investment and the players concern for their financial security will bring about a change.
quote:I can't tell if Quintero had the ball and lost it or if he never had it at all.
I'm not real sure that it matters with regards to rules, but Quintero never had the ball. I'm not sure he ever touched it even... when I saw the video, it looked like the ball hit the runner in the hip and then went toward the backstop.
This gets more interesting the more I learn about it. so from the rule Jimmy posted, trucking a catcher isn't allowed. But the league wants to allow it. Why not just bowl over first basemen to keep them from catching the ball or knocking it loose?
I doubt they would allow that.
But the interesting thing is all along people have said the play on Buster was allowed by the rules, but it sure seems that it's not.
I doubt they would allow that.
But the interesting thing is all along people have said the play on Buster was allowed by the rules, but it sure seems that it's not.
Buster Posey Runned Over
Why do I laugh every time I read that?
Why do I laugh every time I read that?
Whatsamatteru don't read no hardly good english?
Don't pay it no nevermind.
Coach May, I follow what you were saying the other night. I have to filter things through my football (not football-sized) brain, first. Yes, I see many instances when guys take shots at vulnerable players and I think to myself Wow, he didn't have to do that. Not the same as 'defenseless player' or 'unnecessary roughness'- there are rules against that- just a guy with his head turned the wrong way or the guy going out of bounds, that gets greased because somebody's eyes lit up and saw an opportunity to punish their opponent; not hurt them, just ring their bell. I, too, question that kind of stuff, even some of my own actions way back in the 1900s.
But those types of things go along with the violent natures of contact sports. Baseball is, for the most part, not a contact sport. On the surface, I see it more as a gentleman's game. These home plate collisions seem so out of place to me.
Coach May, I follow what you were saying the other night. I have to filter things through my football (not football-sized) brain, first. Yes, I see many instances when guys take shots at vulnerable players and I think to myself Wow, he didn't have to do that. Not the same as 'defenseless player' or 'unnecessary roughness'- there are rules against that- just a guy with his head turned the wrong way or the guy going out of bounds, that gets greased because somebody's eyes lit up and saw an opportunity to punish their opponent; not hurt them, just ring their bell. I, too, question that kind of stuff, even some of my own actions way back in the 1900s.
But those types of things go along with the violent natures of contact sports. Baseball is, for the most part, not a contact sport. On the surface, I see it more as a gentleman's game. These home plate collisions seem so out of place to me.
AntzDad thats exactly how I see it as well.
quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:
The enforcement of many interpretations is controlled by the players union and management. The umpires make some calls the way MLB wants them made. As has been said by someone in this thread, this is what MLB wants, or at least thinks it wants. Things change....look at balk enforcement. A while back MLB mandated to the letter balk enforcement. It lasted one season before they told the umpires to back off. Same thing happened with Sandy Alderson and the strike zone.
Bottom line, MLB management and the players union will be ones to change the enforcement of the rule or create a new rule. I believe protection of managements investment and the players concern for their financial security will bring about a change.
I believe you are correct, this is a perfect example of protecting your investment, so I believe it's going to happen (change). Probably should have been done long ago, sometimes it takes what happens to a special guy like Posey to facilitate change.
Funny about the balk rule, we were watching a pro game and the pitcher actually, according to the rules, balked at almost every other pitch. Afterwards I heard that since this is the pitcher's "normal" mechanics, the umpires in that league do not consider it a balk.
Dino, that is perhaps the most overwrought post I have ever read on this site.
Ditto Rob. I started to respond but then thought better of it.
lol everyone on this Memorial Day. Peace to my "lost friends."
lol everyone on this Memorial Day. Peace to my "lost friends."
Rob, thank you for calling me out with the perfect word, "overwrought". This thread on Buster Posey was way overdone and it's just the kind of topic killer it needed.
Rest in peace.
Rest in peace.
quote:Originally posted by PA Dino:
Rob, thank you for calling me out with the perfect word, "overwrought". This thread on Buster Posey was way overdone and it's just the kind of topic killer it needed.
Rest in peace.
Why is it overdone, because you do not see things the way some others do?
Why should you, will you ever have a player that has reached that level, that has worked his butt off for years and years only to have a devastating injury happen that someone else willfully caused?
Big difference between Jsoh Hamilton hittiing a wall and Cousins intentionally plowing into Posey.
You may not see it that way, you may accept it as that's part of the game, others may not.
JMO.
quote:What is the rule at other bases? Can the runner try to dislodge the ball or bowl over the fielder to prevent the ball from being caught? Why shouldn't the rule be the same regardless of which base it is?
If a runner does any of the above to an infielder, guaranteed they will get beaned.
The rule is the same for all the bases. The fielder can't block a runner's path if he doesn't have the ball [or in the process of catching it] and the runner can't do anything to prevent a fielder from fielding a ball.
Frankly, its still an advantage for the catcher to make the runner go around him due to Obstruction being a judgment call. Lots of those plays are two players trying to occupy the same space at the same moment.
Buster Posey runned over is bigger issue than we know about.
I heard Tony being interviewed on MLB, and his take, makes sense. You treat it like any other base and give penalties (out or suspensions) if rules are broken. It was pretty surprising to hear an old schooler with that philosophy.
Giants GM trashes Cousins, then retracts, lots of emotions due to something that could have been avoided.
I heard Tony being interviewed on MLB, and his take, makes sense. You treat it like any other base and give penalties (out or suspensions) if rules are broken. It was pretty surprising to hear an old schooler with that philosophy.
Giants GM trashes Cousins, then retracts, lots of emotions due to something that could have been avoided.
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Interesting that the Bay Area press is soundly critical of Sabean and his comments...calling for the Giants to move on, focusing on the push for another title...
44
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Interesting that the Bay Area press is soundly critical of Sabean and his comments...calling for the Giants to move on, focusing on the push for another title...
44.
quote:The fielder can't block a runner's path if he doesn't have the ball [or in the process of catching it] and the runner can't do anything to prevent a fielder from fielding a ball.
If this is the rule, Cousins should have been called out at the plate, right?
Cousins receiving death threats, lots of people see this differently which IMO will lead to carification of the rule or a change.
Does anybody give this play as much thought if it involved Olivo instead of Posey?
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Receiving death threats? Yikes!
Relax people. Send him something he can use.
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Receiving death threats? Yikes!
Relax people. Send him something he can use.
- Run around the Posey?
What can make this rosy?
"Coupons, coupons!"
We all chow down!
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quote:Originally posted by snowman:
Does anybody give this play as much thought if it involved Olivo instead of Posey?
It always hurts when you lose a catcher, but it hurts more when you lose a catcher who dominates offensively as well as defensively.
One thing I can't get over, Cousins missed the plate apparently, Posey wreathing in pain, Cousins bends down to Posey, but makes sure that he touches the plate at the same time.
Not sure if the call was safe before or after that, anyone know?
One more way of looking at this--what if it had been Puljos doing the sliding. I have a feeling there would be a lot more people saying it was just a rugged play by a hardnosed player. That's exactly the way it was looked at in 1970 on the Rose/Fosse play. When its the kind of player hanging on by the skin of his teeth its a little easier to call it a dirty play. I looked at the film closely and it looks like Cousins is moving to his left at the same time Posey is moving to his left. I do however see a lane for a possible hook slide but in the fraction of a second the decision has to be made, I think a non established player like Cousins almost has to opt for the collision or he'll lose all respect with his teammates if he is out while avoiding it.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
IF THIS SOFT TALK CONTINUES PRETTY SOON WE WILL BE PLAYING IN SHORTS
What do you mean pretty soon? Remember the White Sox wearing shorts in the early 1970's under Bill Veeck's ownership. I can't believe Woody didn't post a picture of that!
quote:Originally posted by Three Bagger:
One more way of looking at this--what if it had been Puljos doing the sliding. I have a feeling there would be a lot more people saying it was just a rugged play by a hardnosed player.
I agree. I'm not questioning what Cousins did, because he's allowed to do it. It's unfortunate someone got hurt, but "It's part of the game." I'm asking "Why is it part of the game?" Baseball's permission to blow up the catcher never made sense to me.
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Sorry Three Bagger...I was at the mall shopping for comfortable summer wear.
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- "I can't believe Woody didn't post a picture of that! "
Sorry Three Bagger...I was at the mall shopping for comfortable summer wear.
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Anyone happen to catch the Stanford-IL game on ESPNU last night.
At one point Morgan Ensberg (who I think makes it pretty hard to watch a baseball game by the way-awful) comments on what a great job of baserunning that an IL player did. Something like "This is great rounding third and looking for the ball".
I am like huh rounding third and looking for the ball? What for you are simply going to bust it as hard as you can into home and slide if necessary who cares where the ball is at that point?
Then he goes on to elaborate as the play by play guy was lost as well and says well you need to know if the ball is coming in so you know if you need to run over the catcher or not.
Umm..wasn't I watching a college game but besides that do you think that pro ballplayers are looking for an opportunity to blow up the catcher? Seems like risk of getting yourself hurt as the runner would make that a last resort type of play for most guys.
At one point Morgan Ensberg (who I think makes it pretty hard to watch a baseball game by the way-awful) comments on what a great job of baserunning that an IL player did. Something like "This is great rounding third and looking for the ball".
I am like huh rounding third and looking for the ball? What for you are simply going to bust it as hard as you can into home and slide if necessary who cares where the ball is at that point?
Then he goes on to elaborate as the play by play guy was lost as well and says well you need to know if the ball is coming in so you know if you need to run over the catcher or not.
Umm..wasn't I watching a college game but besides that do you think that pro ballplayers are looking for an opportunity to blow up the catcher? Seems like risk of getting yourself hurt as the runner would make that a last resort type of play for most guys.
quote:One more way of looking at this--what if it had been Puljos doing the sliding. I have a feeling there would be a lot more people saying it was just a rugged play by a hardnosed player.
Pujols wouldn't have done it.
I think it is the last resort. I doubt runners round third with the idea of a collision at home plate, but they see something between third and home, say oh (bad word) and decide, in an instant, that crashing the catcher is their best chance to score.
The risk of injury is much greater to the guy who is standing still than the guy with a head of steam. Ask any NFL quarterback.
The risk of injury is much greater to the guy who is standing still than the guy with a head of steam. Ask any NFL quarterback.
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:quote:One more way of looking at this--what if it had been Puljos doing the sliding. I have a feeling there would be a lot more people saying it was just a rugged play by a hardnosed player.
Pujols wouldn't have done it.
I tend to agree Bulldog. Pujols wouldn't risk getting hurt IMO.
Interesting that twice in the last week Mike Napoli for the Rangers was out by 20 feet at the plate. Both times he slid. Both times catchers clearly thought they were about to be trucked moved back exposing the plate. He slid both times and was safe both times. Ump got one right to win the game vs. Royals.
Napoli strikes me as a pretty hard nosed guy and he obviously made the decision that he is not going to run a fellow catcher over in that situation. Even if it means winning the game.
I felt that the hit was probably dirty, but I'd give the benefit of the doubt that the player didn't realize in the heat of the moment that Posey was that far in front of the plate and wasn't going to have time to shift over to block.
BTW, Ensberg also made a pretty strong point that Jeter's faking getting hit that time was bush.
BTW, Ensberg also made a pretty strong point that Jeter's faking getting hit that time was bush.
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:
The risk of injury is much greater to the guy who is standing still than the guy with a head of steam. Ask any NFL quarterback.
Ha!! Very true
At first glance, seeing it in slow motion with the angle from the playing field, I too thought it might have been on a questionable play. I won't get into all the arguements about the rules, unwritten rules, etc. that have been debated here. However, I would ask all of you to go back and watch the play at full speed from the 3rd base angle. It developed so fast.
Posey committed a costly catching sin by being on his knees, then as the ball arrives and the runner is practically on top of him he attempts to bend back - while still on his knees - into the path of the runner. Just because most of us happen to like Posey, for good reason, that is not an excuse to villify Cousins for something that is part of the game as it is currently played. And to reiterate, Johnny Bench himself - the greatest catcher ever - said that "Posey put himself in a terrible position".
Posey committed a costly catching sin by being on his knees, then as the ball arrives and the runner is practically on top of him he attempts to bend back - while still on his knees - into the path of the runner. Just because most of us happen to like Posey, for good reason, that is not an excuse to villify Cousins for something that is part of the game as it is currently played. And to reiterate, Johnny Bench himself - the greatest catcher ever - said that "Posey put himself in a terrible position".