College Fall Cuts

@BaseballMOM05 posted:

Yeah, I deleted my rant. I felt it was pointless.  It just really upsets me for kids, and parents, that put so much into playing baseball at the college level, and then BAM...it's over sometimes before it even begins - all because college baseball is a "cut throat business."  Just doesn't seem right. Sometimes sports, whatever sport it is, is a person's only way to get to college. Just so many things I'm learning about this process and it makes me sad and mad - all at once! LOL!

It’s not personal. It’s just business.

- The Godfather II

Francis7, the comparison you make doesn't work.  In the case of D1s especially, there has been recruiting, a coach has at some point said he thought you were good enough, or would/could become good enough.  Or else why would you have gone to that school?  So the coaches are at best careless and heartless (yeah, business, I get it).  And once there, a lot of kids work really hard and are not entitled, and still don't make the grade.

@BaseballMOM05 I agree with you completely, have seen it happen.  It's brutal and unfair.  Really the only thing that can be said, as is said over and over, is, don't be a walk-on, if they don't give you scholarship money, go elsewhere.  But even then...

https://community.hsbaseballwe...om-d1-team-this-week

@anotherparent posted:

Francis7, the comparison you make doesn't work.  In the case of D1s especially, there has been recruiting, a coach has at some point said he thought you were good enough, or would/could become good enough.  Or else why would you have gone to that school?  So the coaches are at best careless and heartless (yeah, business, I get it).  And once there, a lot of kids work really hard and are not entitled, and still don't make the grade.

My point was that you are never entitled to anything in baseball. Maybe they recruited and romanced you heavily? Maybe they gave you money? Bottom line, if you show up and can't perform or if you perform badly when given the chance, nothing else matters. And, you won't be given more rope just because you think that you are entitled to it.

@anotherparent posted:

Francis7, the comparison you make doesn't work.  In the case of D1s especially, there has been recruiting, a coach has at some point said he thought you were good enough, or would/could become good enough.  Or else why would you have gone to that school?  So the coaches are at best careless and heartless (yeah, business, I get it).  And once there, a lot of kids work really hard and are not entitled, and still don't make the grade.

@BaseballMOM05 I agree with you completely, have seen it happen.  It's brutal and unfair.  Really the only thing that can be said, as is said over and over, is, don't be a walk-on, if they don't give you scholarship money, go elsewhere.  But even then...

https://community.hsbaseballwe...om-d1-team-this-week

I agree that you can't compare high school to college.  If the college players were all on full rides, I might not have  as strong opinions about this topic.

@Francis7 posted:

My point was that you are never entitled to anything in baseball. Maybe they recruited and romanced you heavily? Maybe they gave you money? Bottom line, if you show up and can't perform or if you perform badly when given the chance, nothing else matters. And, you won't be given more rope just because you think that you are entitled to it.

Just be prepared that it is a hard pill to swallow.  I’m sure the kid who could have been drafted, but chose school, thought he would get more than 8 at bats to prove himself.  And for the record, I think he deserves more than that.

I don't think we talk enough about the schools who don't over recruit.  If you know of one near you that isn't as cut throat but still puts out a good product, post about them.

Missouri State is one around here that fits that.  They make a 4 year commitment and usually only carry 30 or so players.  They are at 35 for next year.  They had a higher transfer out number due to an assistant who is no longer there, but typically they are a low turnover program.   

@d-mac posted:

I don't think we talk enough about the schools who don't over recruit.  If you know of one near you that isn't as cut throat but still puts out a good product, post about them.

Missouri State is one around there that fits that.  They make a 4 year commitment and usually only carry 30 or so players.  They are at 35 for next year.  They had a higher transfer out number due to an assistant who is no longer there, but typically they are a low turnover program.   

THIS.

I remember when we were early in the process and discussing a school. First thing the travel coach said to us was: This coach is a good guy and every year he only has 35. He doesn't over recruit.

That's a huge deal when you factor in all those other schools who will have 40 to 50 in the fall.

It's called due diligence.  Do. Your. Homework.  Ask the tough questions.  If I remember correctly, my most important question to the HC on the visit was wanting to know about roster size and turnover.  The HC said he usually runs with 32-35, but would reluctantly run with about 38 for the 20-21 year due to Covid.  Is running with 37 so far this fall.  I'd much prefer 32-35, but how many programs can say they're running with 37/38 guys and that their numbers are swollen?  Different strokes for different folks, but I simply can't imagine being okay with my kid heading to a program with 40+ on their roster.  50+ would be mortifying, yet plenty exist at that size.  My son enjoys PLAYING baseball.  He is far from guaranteed playing time on his team, but Vegas likes his chances a helluva lot more than if he were on a team of 45, 50, or 55.  No one can make things fair, but with some humility, some research and deprioritizing ego and bragging rights, you can get at least somewhere closer to fair.

@PABaseball posted:

Only 12 may have 7 over expected. But how many forced kids out to get below the threshold?

In my opinion it's not about the # of players, it's about the amount of money. I don't believe coaches should be out committing 14.0 scholarships to current/future players when only 11.7 are available. You need 2.3 scholarships cut annually. I have no problem with a coach taking a few more walk-ons and making cuts in that area, when there isn't money attached you know you're expendable. But I refuse to get behind the idea the scholarship players need to be cut because the coach is over budget.

Maybe this strikes a nerve with me because the kid's roommate was cut after hitting .260 in about 25 starts as a covid freshman. The coach sat him down and told him they were over budget and asked him to give up his money. When he said no they told him his power numbers weren't there and he wouldn't be welcome back this fall. In July.

But maybe I don't think it's fair for a kid to commit to a school where the coach tells him he wants him and he passes on other opportunities to find out his money was yanked before signing day. Or for a player to put two years into a program and find out he's not going to be welcome back in the fall. This allows coaches to get lazy with recruitment and vetting. You basically get a 1.5 year free trial to see if a kid pans out. You don't have to really work to develop him because if he's no good after a year you can force him out.

I remember an article in 2013 (ESPN) that spoke about the issue that you've alluded to, so it has not changed, nor will it change in the near future.

18 mos is the average time for scholarship athletes.

Note, doesn't this happen with other sports or any business?

As for coaches "to lazy with recruitment and vetting", that is a slippery slope.  The question is, what is their roster management strategy?

For example, what does Abilene Christian do?

If I'm a HS player I might shy away from this school

Looks like they get major of the players from JUCO.

What is their annual player turnover?

Note, each school will have their individual tendencies and the player/parents need to understand this is how life works.

@Consultant posted:

"Freshman Baseball Team"

This would provide opportunities for the "transition" process for the young player.

A "farm team" and development program for the College.  Inter squad games. Coaches would be Minor League Professional players who are in School.

Bob

Ok.  everything cost $$$.

Where is the $$$ coming from?

If you provide a development team for baseball, based on EADA, you have to provide same $$$ if not more to women's sports.

This has been a very interesting and enlightening thread.  Lots of different parent perspectives.   

My son did not play for one of these cut throat D1s, but I know many that have.  My son's best friend played for a P5 powerhouse...CWS champions.   He came over our house during Xmas break freshmen year.   We had a very candid conversation about how things were done in his program, and what the consequences were for not performing.   He referred to it as the "dark underbelly" of the program.   He was not painting a pretty picture....a far cry from his recruiting experience where he was recruited as a high school sophomore by many D1 programs (and followed by pro scouts) in our area.  College baseball was a job 100% of the time to him versus my son's D1 experience where the coaches were forgiving if my son had labs or missed a day of practice for academic reasons.  I've shared what I've known  to those that have reached out to me.   These high-end D1 coaches have one thing on their mind and it is winning.   Everything else is peripheral.   You do not want to be in there way, or an obstacle to winning.   My son's best friend was a Fall cut as a college sophomore  but he went on to get his degree at the same school.  He had full ride D1 offers at other schools where he would have been a 4-year starter.  Opportunity lost.   He did not miss playing baseball at this school for one second.

If you don't understand or question any of this, then the top tier of D1 is not for you.  Know thyself....if you have no problem following orders and doing what you are told without reservation then this might be the right fit for you.  You have to bring "it" every day in practice and games because these coaches absolutely demand it.     If not, I suggest you look at other college baseball options.   There are plenty out there.

JMO.

@BaseballMOM05 posted:

Yeah, I deleted my rant. I felt it was pointless.  It just really upsets me for kids, and parents, that put so much into playing baseball at the college level, and then BAM...it's over sometimes before it even begins - all because college baseball is a "cut throat business."  Just doesn't seem right. Sometimes sports, whatever sport it is, is a person's only way to get to college. Just so many things I'm learning about this process and it makes me sad and mad - all at once! LOL!

It has always been a business.

Just a new set of stakeholders going through the process.

Bottom line, look at the team's roster management patterns.

Become more informed and make the appropriate decision for your son and family.

@d-mac posted:

I don't think we talk enough about the schools who don't over recruit.  If you know of one near you that isn't as cut throat but still puts out a good product, post about them.

Missouri State is one around here that fits that.  They make a 4 year commitment and usually only carry 30 or so players.  They are at 35 for next year.  They had a higher transfer out number due to an assistant who is no longer there, but typically they are a low turnover program.   

Pre covid - about 41% Player attrition

2021 - 30% Player Attrition

2022 Projected 58% Player Attrition

Source of New recruits

Incoming By Position

I think if you are wanting to go to a top D1 or P5 school then you better know the competition is tough.  There is very little room for failure.  I disagree that he only got 8 at bats to prove himself.  That sounds like the parent I talked to last week who said her son has never gotten a chance to fully prove himself.  He is a junior who has been through 3 falls and 2 springs (1 cut short) to prove himself.  If you can't hit in practice, you have not earned the right to hit in a weekend game.  Her son got 25 at bats last year and went 2/25.  Probably 15 more than I would have given him since at one point he was 0/21.  Her answer was he hit a HR last year.  If you are looking to go somewhere to develop, then you must also be willing to sit for a year or two while you develop.  Coaches only have so much time and they are trying to use it as wisely as possible.  I also know the ones who complain they never got a full shot are the same ones who are not there putting in 2-4 hours extra work each day.  When son was a freshman, he stayed until almost 11 each night getting swings in and working on mechanics of his pitching to earn a spot.  I understand not every coach is a good guy but most are with what they have to do, which is win.  If you want to go to an elite program, you better go in with full eyes open and know what is expected right away.  Every year son's team has had a freshman or two that refused to enroll early for summer semester to learn what is expected.  Then they and their parents get mad when they get chewed out or sent out of the workout for not knowing how to do the lifts or workouts that everyone does.  If you want to play with the big boys, you better be ready to compete from day one.  Not much room for figuring it out.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

I remember an article in 2013 (ESPN) that spoke about the issue that you've alluded to, so it has not changed, nor will it change in the near future.

18 mos is the average time for scholarship athletes.

Note, doesn't this happen with other sports or any business?

As for coaches "to lazy with recruitment and vetting", that is a slippery slope.  The question is, what is their roster management strategy?

For example, what does Abilene Christian do?

If I'm a HS player I might shy away from this school

Looks like they get major of the players from JUCO.

What is their annual player turnover?

Note, each school will have their individual tendencies and the player/parents need to understand this is how life works.

Any time you have a coaching change, the transfer numbers are generally high.  The high number of transfers may or may not be the norm moving forward.     

@fenwaysouth posted:

If you don't understand or question any of this, then the top tier of D1 is not for you.

This is a simple sentence, but profound.  Every player and parent will SAY the right things.  They'll say "I'm not naïve. I know it's going to be super hard." and the like.  But it's like the person (like my ex wife) who has no problem saying "I'm not perfect," but stops well short of backing the statement up with examples.  For every 10 players/parents that SAY they have an understanding of how hard it will be/what they're up against, less than 1 actually truly KNOW it.  They'll tell you that they have no delusions that their Johnny will see the field as a freshman, but inside they're 100% SURE he actually will.  They're all 100% sure that Johnny will put in all the hard work AND that the hard work is essentially guaranteed to get him onto the field; and quick.  But saying something and actually knowing it (and being able to articulate it in detail) are far from the same thing.  But I do think people who frequent this site stand a better chance of actually believing the words that come out of their mouths when they inevitably say all the right things. 

@d-mac posted:

Any time you have a coaching change, the transfer numbers are generally high.  The high number of transfers may or may not be the norm moving forward.     

You are absolute correct, but in the case of Abilene Christian, since moving from D2 to D1, they have sourced the majority of their players from JUCO.

Yes, it is a "big" business.

The recent football game at E-Lansing with MSU and UM provided memories of the Athletic Dept at Michigan State U in the 1950's and 60's.

Two Rose Bowl football teams, College World Series for the baseball and Big 10 Championships for basketball, track and hockey.

We had 120 players for the Freshman Baseball Team,  only 5 played in Omaha - 4 years later. The team included 3 football QB and one hockey player. This was competition.

A lesson learned "do not give up your day job"!!!

Bob

How important is winning to top program coaches? Look at Jack Leggett. He’s a member of the 1,000 win club. He’s sent a noteworthy number of players to pro ball. But he stopped winning 40-50 games per year, stopped beating South Carolina and didn’t win a CWS. He was shown the door after 22 seasons of .667 winning baseball. These top programs are on the receiving end of a lot of pressure to win from alumni.*

How much pressure to win do you think is on David Pierce? He’s following Augie Garrido. Texas hasn’t won a CWS since 2005. Garrido won two in three years at one point. Ever seen video of the post game locker room talk after Garrido teams lost a weekend series?

* I have an acquaintance who sits on the fifty for an SEC football team’s games. The amount of money he donates to the university is absurd. When he talks the AD listens.

Son (2020) was lucky, we never had D1 dreams. When younger, son never dreamed he would be good enough to play in college. As he got to HS it started to sink in that it was possible. He made a decision early on that his education was the first priority then baseball, but playing baseball was a must. While Mother Nature worked on him physically, it became clear that he was going to be able to play post-high school. There were convos with D1 - D3 coaches, but we knew to obtain the education he wanted that matched his desire to play, D3 was the place. Last year as fresh, he had a role out of the arm barn 😜, and was contributing till he lost a quarter of the season to a positive COVID test. He plays on a very good team in very good D3 conference and is getting a great education. The biggest problem I’ve seen during this journey is delusional players/parents not being honest about the players ability and where they fit. Ten of my son’s HS teammates from the four years of HS, went on to play in college, three only, three made it past first fall season. Most were delusional about where they fit.

Sons college coach told him in his first one on one after last fall season that there are some players on the team that just do not work as hard as everyone else, but will play just because they are better than everyone else. Son loved it.

There is a wide range of talent between the best and the worst D3 programs. But one thing that applies pretty much across the board is that D3 is a much more player friendly experience than D1 or D2. Because of that, I believe that more players should look harder at that option- especially if they don’t have the talent or the aspirations to play professionally.

Being a college baseball player can be a tough road. The example above of having 10 high school teammates and only 3 making past freshman fall is probably pretty common. A low percentage of kids have all of these: baseball talent, good athleticism, mental toughness, good grades, good work ethic, and a good attitude. With ALL of these it can be tough. Without all of them it is nearly impossible to be successful and have a good experience. Seems like more and more kids have an entitled attitude and have overestimated their ability and their value to a college baseball program. 

Don’t leave out the part about parents overestimating their kids abilities. Where do you think those kids attitudes of entitlement come from?

@adbono posted:

Don’t leave out the part about parents overestimating their kids abilities. Where do you think those kids attitudes of entitlement come from?

Bingo.  In my opinion, this is quite possibly the biggest negative factor in this environment.  The parents are supposed to be the adults in the room, but rarely are.  If you think about all the peripheral things that feed into the monster, most can be tied back to the parents.  The parents allow PG/PBR/etc to flourish.  The parents think nothing about their kid walking away and entering the transfer portal.  The parents fully embrace and throw gasoline onto the "my kid is getting screwed" fire.  Like it or not, all the garbage that is out there exists because we've allowed it to.  We created the petri dish but now struggle to understand why we're up to our eyeballs in bacteria.  Point with the thumb.  I can go first.  I enrolled my son in travel ball at age 7.  He played 8U ball twice.

Am I missing something?  For my child, and granted it was collegiate softball, after the season, she had an exit interview where the coach laid out the next year and the monies that she would receive.  Also, this was for every sport at her university.  Therefore, are these players not receiving an exit interview where they are told what to expect the next year?  Are they showing up for school without money guaranteed in some form? 

@CoachB25 posted:

Am I missing something?  For my child, and granted it was collegiate softball, after the season, she had an exit interview where the coach laid out the next year and the monies that she would receive.  Also, this was for every sport at her university.  Therefore, are these players not receiving an exit interview where they are told what to expect the next year?  Are they showing up for school without money guaranteed in some form?

Many coaches do that, but not all.  Plus, even for those that do have an exit interview, there are some key differences between softball and baseball and two of the three can happen after the exit interview.

1. 11.7 baseball scholarships for up to 27 athletes (in a normal pre-COVID year), while D1 softball has 12 scholarships and I think it's fair to say that many D1 softball teams don't carry as many players.  You definitely don't use as many pitchers in softball.

2.  Unless I'm mistaken, I'm not aware that there's many summer softball leagues for college players where they may be seen by other coaches and coerced to change schools like happens in baseball.

3.  The MLB draft can change things up for a coach and consequently his team depending upon who is drafted, who signs and who doesn't, etc.  Softball may have a pro draft (I'm not sure), but it definitely doesn't have the impact on college softball as the MLB draft can have on D1 baseball teams. 

@adbono posted:

Don’t leave out the part about parents overestimating their kids abilities. Where do you think those kids attitudes of entitlement come from?

At the fall parents meeting with students when my son was a soph in high school the coach asked who wanted to play college ball. Everyone raised their hand. Then he asked who thinks they can play D1 ball. About half raised their hand. He proceeded to ask who has seen a D1 game (two D1 stadiums within biking distance). Three kids raised their hands. The coach commented only three kids in the room have shown the potential to play D1. He suggested players see the speed of a D1 game before they make the judgement. A lot of parents walked out grumbling over this statement.

As it turned out twelve kids from my son’s junior year roster went on to play college ball. The three he commented about (without naming them) were the only D1 players.

Of all the kids whose parents ended up claiming their kids got screwed in high school ball there wasn’t one case where it was true. But parents have to blame someone. Their kids peaked at 14u.

@Rick at Informed Athlete posted:

Many coaches do that, but not all.  Plus, even for those that do have an exit interview, there are some key differences between softball and baseball and two of the three can happen after the exit interview.

1. 11.7 baseball scholarships for up to 27 athletes (in a normal pre-COVID year), while D1 softball has 12 scholarships and I think it's fair to say that many D1 softball teams don't carry as many players.  You definitely don't use as many pitchers in softball.

2.  Unless I'm mistaken, I'm not aware that there's many summer softball leagues for college players where they may be seen by other coaches and coerced to change schools like happens in baseball.

3.  The MLB draft can change things up for a coach and consequently his team depending upon who is drafted, who signs and who doesn't, etc.  Softball may have a pro draft (I'm not sure), but it definitely doesn't have the impact on college softball as the MLB draft can have on D1 baseball teams.

Most college softball teams have three pitchers. The studdette, the adequate replacement and the freshman in waiting. My daughter played 22u ASA in the summer.

I have sent a lot of players to play in college in baseball.  They have played at many levels but including B1G and SEC.  Perhaps I missed one but I can't think of any one of them that didn't have an exit interview.  If a player and his family depend upon that aid, then why would they risk returning to a school that, financially, they can not afford? 

I saw my son at his first freshman year ball game in the spring. I had not seen any practices, and when I asked him how it was going the only response I got was “fine” or “good.”

I showed up for the first game with great enthusiasm. I had a new hat with the school’s colors—I was very excited.

When I got there the first inning had already started, and to my horror my son was on the field but not playing his preferred position! I was shocked—he never said that was a possibility!

Then I looked down the roster, and he was the only freshman on the field. So of course none of the other freshman parents wanted to commiserate with me. In fact, with a roster size twice what I was used to from the year before, I should have been thankful.

Oh, that was JV baseball at his high school. Why would college be any different?!

@CoachB25 posted:

I have sent a lot of players to play in college in baseball.  They have played at many levels but including B1G and SEC.  Perhaps I missed one but I can't think of any one of them that didn't have an exit interview.  If a player and his family depend upon that aid, then why would they risk returning to a school that, financially, they can not afford?

I think they are mostly talking about freshmen.  Also, HS 2019s lost most of 2020, and then 2021 had large rosters, so coaches didn't cut players who ordinarily might have been cut at the freshman exit interview.  Some of those were cut after the 2021 season, after they had been in college for 2 full (academic) years.

Somewhat related, but for a pitcher besides velo, strike %, etc, do not underestimate "availability" as a key attribute/metric to staying around.

What does availability mean?

@PitchingFan posted:

What does availability mean?

I would guess it means always being available to pitch and not being injury prone and often not available. But that's just a guess.

Also mentally!

I'm guessing the next two weeks will be stressful on a lot of college campuses since fall practices will end after this week.  End of fall meetings will begin and some cuts will begin to happen and others will be told they will not be used this spring.

@PitchingFan posted:

What does availability mean?

Not injured and I not a long history of injuries.

Just got a text from a dear friend who's son was cut partly because of health issues he was having. The team did give him a lot of opportunities and encouragement but in the end it just wasn't a good fit. It was hard news but they are taking it as the clean break needed to find the right place for him.

Wow - it hits harder when it's someone you know.