College Fall Cuts

Thanks to MidAtlanticDad for tagging me earlier in this discussion.  Sorry that I didn't have time to comment until now.  I'm sure this discussion is pretty complete by now.  D1 baseball is the only division in which a mid-year transfer as an undergrad can't be immediately eligible.  (It is possible for a mid-year GRAD transfer to be immediately eligible at a new school in the Spring.)

Dad was also correct in that almost nothing stops the Division I 5-year clock as it's ticking down.  Only exceptions are military service, an official religious mission, or there's a pregnancy exception for female athletes.  Therefore, if a baseball player is cut in the Fall or is told that they are redshirting, the bottom line is that they won't be using one of their four seasons of playing eligibility, but their clock will keep on ticking whether they are redshirting at their current school or have been cut and are sitting out in the Spring.   

Keep in mind that levels below D1 don't use the 5-year clock but instead have a 10-semester/15-quarter rule.  That's more beneficial for Fall sports than for Spring sports in most situations, however. 

If a player doesn’t receive any baseball money (with a handful of exceptions) the writing should be on the wall he’s a long shot. Even if he’s the 28th player on the team he’s not going to receive playing time. Chances are there are 7-10 players receiving 25% it’s not going to work out for. So why should a kid getting nothing believe he’s the outlier? The exception is the late blooming, fast rising, big velocity pitcher.

@PitchingFan posted:

I know there are those who put a lot of it on the coaches but I'm not one of them.  I think they are who they are and you have to do your homework.  I wish more education of parents and players was the answer but my experience tells me it is not.  I know so many who cannot see the writing on the wall.  I see redshirt sophomores (3rd year players) who did not have success this fall who still think they can turn it around this spring and a small percentage might.  But most will sit the bench again this spring as they have the first two years.  I see parents who know there will be 50 players at their son's school who still believe that he can beat all odds and make the roster.  I see players who know they are the last guy on the fall roster and their numbers are not near the top guys but they think they can persevere.  So many believe that they the 1% who will overcome and a few are but the rest are the 99% that will waste a year.  Parents and players are not realistic when it comes to their dreams.  I know my son could have gone to a smaller school and been a starter but he wanted to compete with the best and got an opportunity to play on a CWS team.  But we were realistic on his expectations and if he had not competed his freshman and sophomore years he would have been somewhere else by now.

I just don't think you always know what you are getting into.  When my son committed, we were given the impression that the coach was a completely different person than he was.  Even last year (our first year) parents did not talk. He left over the summer and I am so surprised to now hear that almost all of the parents had the same feelings we did.  He was ruthless and cut throat.  Sometimes the true reality is hard to find until you are there. We went in knowing it was hard.  Absolutely. But as a 2020, it was not what we signed up for.  We ended up (as most of these kids did) walking into a roster that was about 15 kids heavier than anticipated (5 round draft and we had 8 returning seniors).  They have told the boys this year that they have to cut 8, which isn't terrible based on the way they were allowed to be bloated last year and still honor commitments they had already made to kids.   Baseball is unpredictable enough without the covid stuff...injuries, illness, trying to balance school and a very taxing schedule. I don't blame these guys for sticking with their plan when everything was turned upside down 6 months before they reported.   From our HS (guys who committed) and were 2020s. 2  have quit (D1 top 25, D3), 1 had TJ but is still there working his way back (D2), 4 are still at their school (All D1...one was redshirted last year, one is fearful he will get cut at Christmas and 2 are hoping for meaningful play time).

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

The SEC is an outlier, for the most part one could probably say P5 schools hold different weight vs non P5.

Question, how many new recruits should a coach bring in on an annual basis?

As for blaming the coaches, isn't their job to get the best talent?

Did they pressure the Student Athlete and his family to come to the school with the opportunity to potentially play baseball?

No, but they tell you they want you and offer you money to come to their school instead of others TO play baseball, not to potentially play ball. They would not be offering money for the students to potentially come out for the team.

Coaches don't catch enough slack. I understand they have bills to pay and only get paid if they keep their jobs by winning and running a clean program. I have no issues with them taking on as many resources (players) as possible and getting down to a certain number. My issue lies within the fact that they are allowed to go over limitations and force kids out - kids who have turned down other options to uphold their end of the bargain.

My issue has more to do with the rules that allow this behavior, where it has become the norm. You can bring in however many you want and get rid of whoever. It allows coaches to get lazy and removes the vetting process from recruiting. Good coaches and talent evaluators will hit on most guys. Guys can play the numbers game and get lucky. The issue is there are kids who lose other opportunities because the staff at their school either did a poor job recruiting or a poor job developing.

This is a very informative thread that is full of comments from people who are in the middle of the fire right now. Anyone that has a player in HS should read this and commit it to memory. Then get your son to read it to and do the same. People have to get more educated about what the process is really like. If the do, they will make better decisions that will save a lot of heartache and frustration down the road.

Francis7, I assume you are talking about things like this?

https://twitter.com/PatWaer7/s...1454156648998584320/

As was said, if you are transferring down, you can play immediately at another school.

What wasn't discussed is the major pain and challenge it is to go that route - try to adjust to a new school mid-stream, get credits to transfer, get all your stuff moved, find new housing and roommates, get out of previous housing commitment, try to fit in with an entirely new group that has been working together for months, get past the many who will be holding a grudge due to themselves or aforementioned teammates about to lose their earned place in the pecking order to a new guy coming in, dealing with the ego hit when all the friends and family call and text asking what happened at school A where everyone was so excited that you were going to, dealing with your parents who now face additional expenses and uncertainty, etc., etc.

@PABaseball posted:

No, but they tell you they want you and offer you money to come to their school instead of others TO play baseball, not to potentially play ball. They would not be offering money for the students to potentially come out for the team.

Coaches don't catch enough slack. I understand they have bills to pay and only get paid if they keep their jobs by winning and running a clean program. I have no issues with them taking on as many resources (players) as possible and getting down to a certain number. My issue lies within the fact that they are allowed to go over limitations and force kids out - kids who have turned down other options to uphold their end of the bargain.

My issue has more to do with the rules that allow this behavior, where it has become the norm. You can bring in however many you want and get rid of whoever. It allows coaches to get lazy and removes the vetting process from recruiting. Good coaches and talent evaluators will hit on most guys. Guys can play the numbers game and get lucky. The issue is there are kids who lose other opportunities because the staff at their school either did a poor job recruiting or a poor job developing.

This year there are ~12 schools that have more than 7 extra players over expected 2022 player limit (40).

From your perspective, how many players should the coach be allowed to bring in for the fall season?

With respects to athletic scholarship $$$, not all $$$ are equal (but we all understand).

Note, all $$$ are not equal, The $$$ provided will have different meaning based on the in-state vs out-of-state cost.

Casting a wide net has always been a issue regardless of the sport in question.

@cabbagedad posted:

As was said, if you are transferring down, you can play immediately at another school.

What wasn't discussed is the major pain and challenge it is to go that route - try to adjust to a new school mid-stream, get credits to transfer, get all your stuff moved, find new housing and roommates, get out of previous housing commitment, try to fit in with an entirely new group that has been working together for months, get past the many who will be holding a grudge due to themselves or aforementioned teammates about to lose their earned place in the pecking order to a new guy coming in, dealing with the ego hit when all the friends and family call and text asking what happened at school A where everyone was so excited that you were going to, dealing with your parents who now face additional expenses and uncertainty, etc., etc.

Welcome back!

@anotherparent posted:

Francis7, I assume you are talking about things like this?

https://twitter.com/PatWaer7/s...1454156648998584320/

Very familiar FS program. Just because you tweet it, doesn't mean you live by it! 

@Picked Off posted:

Very familiar FS program. Just because you tweet it, doesn't mean you live by it!

That wasn't the one I saw. Let me see if I can find it again

@Francis7 posted:

That wasn't the one I saw. Let me see if I can find it again

https://twitter.com/stpetersti...KBXaw6rXk0Q&s=19

Outside of NCAA rules, D1 in this case, aren't there conference rules as well? For example I remember asking a few years back about the Big 10, and they have specific rules they have to follow outside of the NCAA rules.

My 2022 was recruited by a top ACC school before he stepped foot onto a HS field. Based on the recruiting history of the school he probably would have gotten an offer if he attended their camp. We didn't. The thought process was if he's so good he's getting this offer now, there will still be plenty of offers when he's more mature and has a better idea of what he wants to do.

Fast forward 3 years, he's committed, and a good ball player, but he's not good enough to play for that school. Maybe he would have made it into the fall, but wasn't making it to the spring.

@baseballhs posted:

I just don't think you always know what you are getting into.  When my son committed, we were given the impression that the coach was a completely different person than he was.  Even last year (our first year) parents did not talk. He left over the summer and I am so surprised to now hear that almost all of the parents had the same feelings we did.  He was ruthless and cut throat.  Sometimes the true reality is hard to find until you are there. We went in knowing it was hard.  Absolutely. But as a 2020, it was not what we signed up for.  We ended up (as most of these kids did) walking into a roster that was about 15 kids heavier than anticipated (5 round draft and we had 8 returning seniors).  They have told the boys this year that they have to cut 8, which isn't terrible based on the way they were allowed to be bloated last year and still honor commitments they had already made to kids.   Baseball is unpredictable enough without the covid stuff...injuries, illness, trying to balance school and a very taxing schedule. I don't blame these guys for sticking with their plan when everything was turned upside down 6 months before they reported.   From our HS (guys who committed) and were 2020s. 2  have quit (D1 top 25, D3), 1 had TJ but is still there working his way back (D2), 4 are still at their school (All D1...one was redshirted last year, one is fearful he will get cut at Christmas and 2 are hoping for meaningful play time).

This post in particular strikes a chord with me. What is described here is the way it is at a nationally ranked Big 12 program. If your son is being recruited by top tier D1 programs this is what it’s like at almost every one of them. The unfortunate reality is that the majority of current generation of parents (that have 18 year old baseball players) have coddled their kids their entire lives. The travel ball coaches, private instructors, and scouting services do the same thing, often pumping these kids up to believe they are better than they are. Why would they do that, you ask? To keep getting your money, that’s why. Guess when that bubble bursts and the kid’s world comes crashing down around him? The first day he sets foot on the practice field at a top 25 D1 program. They not only aren’t good enough to get on the field, most of them don’t even get the opportunity. In many cases they are demeaned and treated like peons - and they receive little to no coaching. The program keeps them because they might develop into productive players but the program doesn’t care about them until they can actually help win games. This sentiment is reinforced (in various ways) on a daily basis and it’s a shock to a kid’s system - since he has been treated like a superstar every day just because he had a pulse. Lots of kids can’t stand up to that kind of treatment, nor should they have to IMO. But it’s the harsh reality of D1 baseball at the most competitive level. So you damn well better know what you are getting your kid into before you do it.

Yeah Ad, but the swag, man.  The jets. The rose-colored shades, the hometown press coverage, the side glances from envious teammates, the fans, the CHANCE to stick.

@smokeminside posted:

Yeah Ad, but the swag, man.  The jets. The rose-colored shades, the hometown press coverage, the side glances from envious teammates, the fans, the CHANCE to stick.

That’s the lure for sure, but it’s only real for the legitimate dudes - and many of them lack the mental toughness to stand up to it. Do a little research on Blake Mayfield who could have gone anywhere he wanted out of Flower Mound Marcus HS in Texas

looks like a tough road for the guy.

@smokeminside posted:

looks like a tough road for the guy.

Details coming in PM

The first day he sets foot on the practice field at a top 25 D1 program. They not only aren’t good enough to get on the field, most of them don’t even get the opportunity. In many cases they are demeaned and treated like peons - and they receive little to no coaching. The program keeps them because they might develop into productive players but the program doesn’t care about them until they can actually help win games.

Then why do coaches even bother to recruit them? How about schools only recruit kids they feel are going to make an immediate, or near immediate impact? Save everyone a lot of time and heartache.

@Francis7 posted:

@BaseballMOM05 - you might be clear of the mess with a 2024? For sure, the 2021s and 2022s have been screwed and we will see with the 2023s.

I have a 2022. And, while it would be easy to sit here and say this sucks, it's so unfair and why me...instead, I look at it as a merit badge. The kid got offers to play college baseball at a time where it was extremely difficult to get a college offer. Maybe the most difficult time ever to get a college baseball offer? Testament to his ability and drive. The world threw him a nasty curve and he didn't go down swinging.

@Francis7   it will probably go back to pre-covid activities.

For example, in 2019 Arkansas EADA reported 48 players had participated in some form of spring varsity baseball .

While I think a lot of what Adbono said it true, I think there are degrees. Our new coach is still tough but not to the point where he is yelling in practice that he can’t wait to recruit on top of a kid or that a kid is a waste of a scholarship.  I saw last year that some programs give guys several opportunities even if they aren’t great at first. Example, Texas had some freshmen pitchers who were shaky at the beginning of the season but were well known elite players. The coach kept putting them out there and by mid season, they were killing it. Most coaches aren’t willing to stick with a kid and that’s why there were kids who could have been drafted out of us who ended up in the portal.  One kid got 8 at bats. Then didn’t play again. They worried they would Lise him in the draft and then gave him 8 chances. He went in the portal. Look at Chris Taylor or Alex Bergman…even pros struggle but there is not much room fir that when a coach’s paycheck is on the line. Not sure what the answer is because, like I said,, parents weren’t really willing to speak I’ll of our former coach until he was gone and during recruiting he portrayed himself much differently than he actually was.   We had a very “hard” hs coach which I guess prepared my kid a little.  

@BaseballMOM05 posted:

The first day he sets foot on the practice field at a top 25 D1 program. They not only aren’t good enough to get on the field, most of them don’t even get the opportunity. In many cases they are demeaned and treated like peons - and they receive little to no coaching. The program keeps them because they might develop into productive players but the program doesn’t care about them until they can actually help win games.

Then why do coaches even bother to recruit them? How about schools only recruit kids they feel are going to make an immediate, or near immediate impact? Save everyone a lot of time and heartache.

40 players are allowed on D1 rosters this year. There are only 9 positions on the field. Only 8-10 pitchers will get meaningful innings. Maybe 12 position players get a good number of at bats. Every recruited player doesn’t get the opportunity to make an impact. I’m just telling you the way it is. Some recruits are nothing more than insurance policies. You have to be smart enough and realistic enough to know where you stack up.

@BaseballMOM05 posted:

The first day he sets foot on the practice field at a top 25 D1 program. They not only aren’t good enough to get on the field, most of them don’t even get the opportunity. In many cases they are demeaned and treated like peons - and they receive little to no coaching. The program keeps them because they might develop into productive players but the program doesn’t care about them until they can actually help win games.

Then why do coaches even bother to recruit them? How about schools only recruit kids they feel are going to make an immediate, or near immediate impact? Save everyone a lot of time and heartache.

Sometimes they didn’t see the kid enough, sometimes the kid isn’t totally healthy and able to perform his best, sometimes the transition takes an adjustment and sometimes the kid was a walk on and seems expendable.  Finally, sometimes a freshman or transfer comes in who is better and they see that they won’t ever really need you.  On the flip side, I think the bigger scholarship you have, the more a target is on your back to perform day one.

Waah, It's only unfair when it happens to your kid. I blame the NY Football Giants losing again, the current teams in the world series, the 8 lbs of candy that I am slowly pawning off to others, yadda yadda yadda

@@baseballhs is correct. There are varying degrees of what I discussed at the most competitive schools

@2022NYC posted:

Waah, It's only unfair when it happens to your kid. I blame the NY Football Giants losing again, the current teams in the world series, the 8 lbs of candy that I am slowly pawning off to others, yadda yadda yadda

If you think my posts have anything to do with what happened to my kid you would be sadly mistaken

If you google "baseball cut in the fall", the first thing that comes up is is some HSBBW threads.  The same thing for googling "over-recruiting".  Having these stories on here, year after year, is hopefully helpful for some people.

That first search also brought up an article about the Harvard baseball team . . . in 1911:

https://www.thecrimson.com/art...fall-baseball-squad/

So this has been happening for a long time.

@adbono posted:

This post in particular strikes a chord with me. What is described here is the way it is at a nationally ranked Big 12 program. If your son is being recruited by top tier D1 programs this is what it’s like at almost every one of them. The unfortunate reality is that the majority of current generation of parents (that have 18 year old baseball players) have coddled their kids their entire lives. The travel ball coaches, private instructors, and scouting services do the same thing, often pumping these kids up to believe they are better than they are. Why would they do that, you ask? To keep getting your money, that’s why. Guess when that bubble bursts and the kid’s world comes crashing down around him? The first day he sets foot on the practice field at a top 25 D1 program. They not only aren’t good enough to get on the field, most of them don’t even get the opportunity. In many cases they are demeaned and treated like peons - and they receive little to no coaching. The program keeps them because they might develop into productive players but the program doesn’t care about them until they can actually help win games. This sentiment is reinforced (in various ways) on a daily basis and it’s a shock to a kid’s system - since he has been treated like a superstar every day just because he had a pulse. Lots of kids can’t stand up to that kind of treatment, nor should they have to IMO. But it’s the harsh reality of D1 baseball at the most competitive level. So you damn well better know what you are getting your kid into before you do it.

My son’s observation of playing P5 ball was he saw a lot of talent circle the drain because they weren’t mentally tough enough.

They never had to sit before in their life. Rather than stay physically and mentally ready some kids pissed and moaned until they mentally had one foot out the door. It doesn’t take long for the other foot to follow.

My son’s first six appearances were pinch running. Then the coaches used a mid week non conference game to see if he could hit his way on. Then he started a Sunday conference game. He started against right handed pitching the second half of freshman year.

After hitting .300 he returned soph year to find a JuCo All American at his position. He had to win another position. He beat out a Gatorade POY recruit who couldn’t handle the mental grind of failure.

@BaseballMOM05 posted:

The first day he sets foot on the practice field at a top 25 D1 program. They not only aren’t good enough to get on the field, most of them don’t even get the opportunity. In many cases they are demeaned and treated like peons - and they receive little to no coaching. The program keeps them because they might develop into productive players but the program doesn’t care about them until they can actually help win games.

Then why do coaches even bother to recruit them? How about schools only recruit kids they feel are going to make an immediate, or near immediate impact? Save everyone a lot of time and heartache.

FOMO

BaseballMOM05, then you miss the one who no one thought would make it.  It is a part science part guessing game for college coaches.  They are recruiting these kids so early, which they have to do to compete, that they are hoping they continue to grow and get faster and stronger.  When they do not they fall in the Adbono criteria.  Then there are the ones who surprise everyone.  My youngest son was told by several SEC coaches that he was not big enough and didn't throw fast enough to compete in SEC.  After he was a part of beating them last year, there was a big satisfaction.  The one who saw him pitch more than anyone was who he was playing for.

But it is no different than going after the top guys.  There are fans who say why would you waste recruiting money and time on a top 5 pick in the MLB draft.  Why would you sign him when everyone knows he is going to the MLB right out of HS?  Then you miss Rocker and guys like that.  Coaches are many times in a no win situation.

@CollegebaseballInsights posted:

This year there are ~12 schools that have more than 7 extra players over expected 2022 player limit (40).

From your perspective, how many players should the coach be allowed to bring in for the fall season?

With respects to athletic scholarship $$$, not all $$$ are equal (but we all understand).

Note, all $$$ are not equal, The $$$ provided will have different meaning based on the in-state vs out-of-state cost.

Only 12 may have 7 over expected. But how many forced kids out to get below the threshold?

In my opinion it's not about the # of players, it's about the amount of money. I don't believe coaches should be out committing 14.0 scholarships to current/future players when only 11.7 are available. You need 2.3 scholarships cut annually. I have no problem with a coach taking a few more walk-ons and making cuts in that area, when there isn't money attached you know you're expendable. But I refuse to get behind the idea the scholarship players need to be cut because the coach is over budget.

Maybe this strikes a nerve with me because the kid's roommate was cut after hitting .260 in about 25 starts as a covid freshman. The coach sat him down and told him they were over budget and asked him to give up his money. When he said no they told him his power numbers weren't there and he wouldn't be welcome back this fall. In July.

But maybe I don't think it's fair for a kid to commit to a school where the coach tells him he wants him and he passes on other opportunities to find out his money was yanked before signing day. Or for a player to put two years into a program and find out he's not going to be welcome back in the fall. This allows coaches to get lazy with recruitment and vetting. You basically get a 1.5 year free trial to see if a kid pans out. You don't have to really work to develop him because if he's no good after a year you can force him out.

^^^ that happens a lot.

"Freshman Baseball Team"

This would provide opportunities for the "transition" process for the young player.

A "farm team" and development program for the College.  Inter squad games. Coaches would be Minor League Professional players who are in School.

Bob

@baseballhs posted:

^^^ that happens a lot.

You beat me to the punch. It happens a lot. Those of us that are aware post about it as PSA to others who may not know. Not because we are whining about what happened to our own kids. Geez!

@@BaseballMOM05, I saw your rant but my phone won’t let me reply to it. All that you say is what has turned into the business side of college baseball. It’s cold and hard and that’s just a reality. It underscores the importance of doing your homework and being realistic about the choice that is made. Reaching for an option that’s a low percentage play is riskier than ever. Many have said it on here before but never has it been more important to go somewhere that everyone would be happy with if baseball doesn’t work out.

@adbono posted:

If you think my posts have anything to do with what happened to my kid you would be sadly mistaken

Wasn't referring to your kid just a snarky statement on the overall unfairness of baseball

@adbono posted:

@@BaseballMOM05, I saw your rant but my phone won’t let me reply to it. All that you say is what has turned into the business side of college baseball. It’s cold and hard and that’s just a reality. It underscores the importance of doing your homework and being realistic about the choice that is made. Reaching for an option that’s a low percentage play is riskier than ever. Many have said it on here before but never has it been more important to go somewhere that everyone would be happy with if baseball doesn’t work out.

Yeah, I deleted my rant. I felt it was pointless.  It just really upsets me for kids, and parents, that put so much into playing baseball at the college level, and then BAM...it's over sometimes before it even begins - all because college baseball is a "cut throat business."  Just doesn't seem right. Sometimes sports, whatever sport it is, is a person's only way to get to college. Just so many things I'm learning about this process and it makes me sad and mad - all at once! LOL!

@2022NYC posted:

Wasn't referring to your kid just a snarky statement on the overall unfairness of baseball

Honestly, it is unfair.  Mostly to freshmen. There are kids who could have gone anywhere included being drafted ( I know multiple) who aren't given chances because the mentality is winning today and no development or work to tweak issues. That's why Juco transfers are so dangerous to guys who commit and go in as freshmen.  The Juco guys many times already came from a strong baseball program, dropped down to transfer, get a chance to actually play and figure out the transition and then come in to compete against your kid that is completely green to college baseball. After freshman year, you have a better understanding of what you are up against, but I feel for the freshmen walking in.  

@BaseballMOM05 posted:

  It just really upsets me for kids, and parents, that put so much into playing baseball at the college level, and then BAM...it's over sometimes before it even begins - all because college baseball is a "cut throat business."  Just doesn't seem right.

That's baseball at the upper levels. No one is entitled to anything or owed anything. You either earn it or you don't.

I remember when my son was a freshman starting on varsity and there were some juniors sitting the bench all year. Their mothers were angry because their kids never played. The moms thought their sons were entitled to playing time because (a) they were juniors and (b) they put in their time playing freshman as freshman and playing JV as sophomores.

Guess what? Coach only wanted to play kids who were going to help him win...period. And their kids weren't it.

Didn't matter what mom wanted or felt the kids were entitled to, etc.

All those kids were gone senior year too.

Just summing up the thread for those of us who got through college thanks to CliffsNotes.....