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That story about the ACL is just unbearable.  Although, of course, it could have happened in the first practice at the new school, too, or any time - or while riding a motorcycle, like Tatis.  So you can't really blame summer ball for that.  Of course, if they didn't play during the summer, they wouldn't get injured - but they wouldn't be playing.  That's like saying a kid shouldn't play high school ball because he might get injured for the travel season (or vice versa).

But I totally take the point that baseball players have a lot more to worry about, these days, than just how they are playing and getting injured.

That story about the ACL is just unbearable.  Although, of course, it could have happened in the first practice at the new school, too, or any time - or while riding a motorcycle, like Tatis.  So you can't really blame summer ball for that.  Of course, if they didn't play during the summer, they wouldn't get injured - but they wouldn't be playing.  That's like saying a kid shouldn't play high school ball because he might get injured for the travel season (or vice versa).

But I totally take the point that baseball players have a lot more to worry about, these days, than just how they are playing and getting injured.

Oh for sure!!  It could have happened at any moment, I think it was just the situation he was put in that caused so much frustration and anger. 

That story about the ACL is just unbearable.  Although, of course, it could have happened in the first practice at the new school, too, or any time - or while riding a motorcycle, like Tatis.  So you can't really blame summer ball for that.  Of course, if they didn't play during the summer, they wouldn't get injured - but they wouldn't be playing.  That's like saying a kid shouldn't play high school ball because he might get injured for the travel season (or vice versa).

But I totally take the point that baseball players have a lot more to worry about, these days, than just how they are playing and getting injured.

I know of at least 1 HS player that didn't play last year to avoid injury before the draft.

Hokie;

Maybe you can provide the "parents" a day in the life of a Summer Team GM. What is the cost to arrange housing, games, coaching for each player? This expense is paid by income from the "customer".

The ticket paying customer for the games contributes to the summer income of the ushers, grounds crew, food concessions, program ads & sales, office staff and Coaches.

A shorter season will reduce this INCOME.

Summer baseball is a business. "Enjoy the opportunity"!

Stanford conducted a research - $1 expended at the ballpark rotates 20 times thru the Community.

Bob

Last edited by Consultant

A "typical" CEO/GM day, at least for me:   7:30 a.m. drive into town and set out "sandwich board" signs for the night's game. During the morning, I will receive an e-mail with the umpires for tonight's game that I forward to the head coach.  Usually I receive an e-mail from my son  who does all of our players recruiting if any roster changes have occurred. 12:00-1:00 p.m. Once or twice a week, go to the field and mow the area outside of the fences, 4:00-4:30, head to the field to make sure the interns have cups and water/Gatorade (the home guys get the Gatorade) to both dugouts prior to BP. BP starts at 5:00. Take programs/rosters to gift shop, 5:00-6:30, obtain lineups and have interns write-up a larger print version for the PA announcer (me), make sure scorekeeper gets lineups into the computer (Pointstreaks), confirm in game activity plans with interns, confirm nightly giveaways, get info for any game sponsors for that night to announce, 6:50 start announcements, player introduction, get microphone to National Anthem singer for the night, 7:00-9:45ish, game. My particular duties are I do the PA, music, and scoreboard. Also in the press box are our scorekeeper and on-line game announcer (and the baseball talk up there as we all work is always enjoyable, especially sweetly glaring or throat-clearing at the scorer if we disagree with a hit/error decision). After the game ends, visit with the first lady a bit, clean up and shut down the press box, along with interns empty all trash cans and make sure all trash is picked up. Grab some of the post-game meal (provided by volunteers every home game), talk with visiting parents, make sure things are cleaned up and locked up, go around town and put away the "sandwich board' signs. Get home anywhere from 1O:45 to 11:45.   Discuss whatever the first lady wants to discuss about the game and life, and hopefully sound asleep by midnight.  And Away games are just great-I get to be a spectator, doing none of  the above, but my wife and I go to every away game.   Fortunately in the Valley League our trips are relatively short-2 teams are 2 hours away but most are 20-30 minutes.      We play 42 games, plus playoffs.   And while we have a lot of fun as we work, when the season ends, we exhale and enjoy some free time.

@Consultant posted:

Hokie;

Maybe you can provide the "parents" a day in the life of a Summer Team GM. What is the cost to arrange housing, games, coaching for each player? This expense is paid by income from the "customer".

The ticket paying customer for the games contributes to the summer income of the ushers, grounds crew, food concessions, program ads & sales, office staff and Coaches.

A shorter season will reduce this INCOME.

Summer baseball is a business. "Enjoy the opportunity"!

Stanford conducted a research - $1 expended at the ballpark rotates 20 times thru the Community.

Bob

If the quality of the product is declining, it is only a matter of time until the paying fans start to decline as well. Less income any way you slice it. Successful businesses are always shifting and changing how they do things in order to keep revenue and profit at the highest levels that are sustainable. Finding a way to keep teams whole throughout the playoffs, whether shortening the season or changing the commitment of a player, would be a top priority. More kids are waking up to the fact that they won't be an MLB player. Seems like more are looking at the "opportunity" as an obligation.

Host families: Host families in our league are not paid. They provide a place for players to sleep, do laundry, and fix food. As a practical matter, most of our host families stock up on food and keep the guys fed, include players in family meals where possible, and turn into their players' biggest fans. A lot of our host families travel to our away games as the distances aren't too bad.   We encourage our host moms do launder the uniforms as many players just aren't too good at that.  We are well-pleased with our host families and could not operate without their support. Some teams in some leagues board players in hotels. Besides being very expensive, I think this takes away from the support that a host family can provide.  The player-host family connections often last for many years beyond the time when a player is here.

Something I want to add that I feel may contribute to some of what I believe the players are thinking

Before social media and the information era the only thing players really had available to them was the coaches they directly worked with. HS Coach, maybe a private instructor. Then college staff, and summer league coaches. You could walk away from your college career with quite literally 2 or 3 opinions on improving your game.

Now any kid can fly to Driveline and live there instead for an entire summer. Any kid can hop on YouTube and watch hours of Tom House material. Even twitter, PitchingNinja, pros, etc. In between reading thoughts from your buddies and the news you can have another perspective on pitching, hitting, fielding that was never available to you before.

I'm not saying the coaches in summer leagues are not good, not at all. But with all the information and material out there I feel like kids are more likely to get a lot of options to look at and stick with what works best for them. The opinion of their summer league PC or HC is less valuable now than it was years ago for most collegiate level players. Especially when it is obviously a situation where a coach is looking to get some experience and make his way thru the ranks as opposed to having a firm track record.

@PABaseball   I always thought that summer ball was all about playing the game and working on your stuff. Making new friends and experiencing another aspect of the game. It's especially important for those who need to put in the work.

I saw son last week and told him about this topic. His response was, I am not really understanding why a player would NOT want to play summer ball unless he was hurt or needed to take classes to graduate on time.

@Consultant posted:

Driveline cannot place your son [pitcher] in an environment facing 6'8" Frank Howard or as a [Hitter] facing Bob Gibson.

This called College Summer League "game experience". "Survival" and opportunity to succeed.

Bob

Neither can 99% of summer leagues. But actually if you were a college hitter for the past few summers working out at Driveline odds are you would have been playing simulated games against Trevor Bauer and other pros. Live ABs off the Cy Young seems like a challenging environment.

Nobody wants to go to some summer league for survival.

@TPM posted:

@PABaseball   I always thought that summer ball was all about playing the game and working on your stuff. Making new friends and experiencing another aspect of the game. It's especially important for those who need to put in the work.

I saw son last week and told him about this topic. His response was, I am not really understanding why a player would NOT want to play summer ball unless he was hurt or needed to take classes to graduate on time.

It is. Once again I'm not anti-summer ball. In talking with current players and seeing it firsthand I'm just pointing out possible reasons for the decline in participation and morale.

My 2022 played in a college league to get adjusted to college bats. It was extremely useful.He made the All Star Game, it worked out nicely. He also thought it was a complete drag and none of his teammates or coaches cared to be there but he knew it was necessary and we both know he is significantly more prepared heading to school next week than some of the other arms in his recruiting class.

But for 90% of guys it's you're going here. And they do it not because they want to but because they have to. If you need reps go get the reps but if you're a returning starter in a league with almost no pro visibility I really don't see the need to play a college seasons worth of games in a little over two months. The Cape is on a different planet than the local league that sees maybe 6 fans a game.

It's not that it's not always useful. It's just a lot in a short amount of time. It's hard to get excited for if there isn't a defined purpose. Getting better is too broad and subjective. If it's not reps or pro visibility I can understand why some players would feel the way they do. Big difference between I want to do this and I have to do this. It makes a great difference.

@PABaseball posted:

It is. Once again I'm not anti-summer ball. In talking with current players and seeing it firsthand I'm just pointing out possible reasons for the decline in participation and morale.

My 2022 played in a college league to get adjusted to college bats. It was extremely useful.He made the All Star Game, it worked out nicely. He also thought it was a complete drag and none of his teammates or coaches cared to be there but he knew it was necessary and we both know he is significantly more prepared heading to school next week than some of the other arms in his recruiting class.

But for 90% of guys it's you're going here. And they do it not because they want to but because they have to. If you need reps go get the reps but if you're a returning starter in a league with almost no pro visibility I really don't see the need to play a college seasons worth of games in a little over two months. The Cape is on a different planet than the local league that sees maybe 6 fans a game.

It's not that it's not always useful. It's just a lot in a short amount of time. It's hard to get excited for if there isn't a defined purpose. Getting better is too broad and subjective. If it's not reps or pro visibility I can understand why some players would feel the way they do. Big difference between I want to do this and I have to do this. It makes a great difference.

@TPM posted:

@PABaseball   I always thought that summer ball was all about playing the game and working on your stuff. Making new friends and experiencing another aspect of the game. It's especially important for those who need to put in the work.

I saw son last week and told him about this topic. His response was, I am not really understanding why a player would NOT want to play summer ball unless he was hurt or needed to take classes to graduate on time.

I guess this is why esports is growing popularity.  I'm a Metaverse allstar.

One step closer of us being in the matrix.

Time to take the pill.

So on one hand we have a situation where parents are complaining their players are sitting on the bench because the coach picked up older guys from the portal and then on the other hand we have parents stating players do not want to go play summer ball because it's not something they want to do but the coach is forcing them to do it.

What happened to the player going away and playing like an all star and proving to the coach he deserves to get off the bench and be in the line up?

I think that CBI hit the nail on the head. Coach is making a player go away instead of sitting on his butt all summer playing video games.

Why not talk to the coach about a plan for an alternative and see what happens. 

@TPM posted:

So on one hand we have a situation where parents are complaining their players are sitting on the bench because the coach picked up older guys from the portal and then on the other hand we have parents stating players do not want to go play summer ball because it's not something they want to do but the coach is forcing them to do it.

What happened to the player going away and playing like an all star and proving to the coach he deserves to get off the bench and be in the line up?

I think that CBI hit the nail on the head. Coach is making a player go away instead of sitting on his butt all summer playing video games.

Why not talk to the coach about a plan for an alternative and see what happens.

@TPM  IMHO, I think we thought very simple, we wanted to compete, we wanted to win, more important we liked the social component of play baseball.

Playing all day, 7 on 7 (Pitcher, catcher, 3 infielders, 2 outfielders), no coaches or played a game of fungo.

The game always got contentious with balls and strikes in the last inning because the batter stayed at the plate until he got the perfect pitch.

There were a lot of fights at the end of these games and then we came back the next day to do it again.

@TPM posted:

So on one hand we have a situation where parents are complaining their players are sitting on the bench because the coach picked up older guys from the portal and then on the other hand we have parents stating players do not want to go play summer ball because it's not something they want to do but the coach is forcing them to do it.

What happened to the player going away and playing like an all star and proving to the coach he deserves to get off the bench and be in the line up?

I think that CBI hit the nail on the head. Coach is making a player go away instead of sitting on his butt all summer playing video games.

Why not talk to the coach about a plan for an alternative and see what happens.

I don't think it's that they do not want to play summer ball, because you are right.  If you are playing baseball in college, you should have no excuse not to be playing over the summer, except for the obvious reasons.  With collegiate leagues, amateur leagues,  etc. there should be a place for everyone to play.  If you are a kid playing college baseball and you think sitting at home all summer playing video games is going to get you anywhere, then you deserve to be sitting on that bench!

I think the points being made are that with the changing times there might need to be some changes to some of these college leagues as well.   

1.  From what I understand, years ago there used to be just a handful of college summer leagues and if you were chosen to play on one of them, you were a possible draft pick or at the very least a top player in your program.  So playing in one of those leagues was a huge deal!  Now with so many more leagues (businesses) starting, there is pretty much a spot for anyone who wants to go that route so is it still such an elite situation?  Maybe for the few top programs.  Correct me if I am wrong, but there probably weren't any D3 players playing in the NWL a few years ago and now by the end of the season, there are a lot of them!  Again, correct me if I am wrong.  Just trying to understand. 

2.  With only 11.7 scholarships, when are kids supposed to make money (work) to be able to pay for the rest of their tuition??  If you have a kid who is obviously not going to go in the draft, getting a 20-30% scholarship and his HC coach tells him he must go (here) to play summer baseball, that's adding a huge stress for him and his family to pay for the other part of their schooling.  We had a player go in the draft last year and worked every summer cutting and hauling trees!  He made money AND built muscle!!  Never played summer ball and still got drafted.

3.  I have said this before, but the transferring of schools and kids having to find new homes while they are playing somewhere else, is tough. 

4.  Summer ball is great for getting reps in, but don't expect any development.  You are on your own for that.

5.  More entitled kids??  Less work ethic than years past?  Maybe.  I hope it has more to do with the pressure that kids have these days to perform and always be "the best" than it does actual work ethic but who knows.

Just all my thoughts...

"4.  Summer ball is great for getting reps in, but don't expect any development.  You are on your own for that."

There are so many aspects to this thread that do not work for me, based on our son's experience.

Admittedly, our son had very, very good experiences, especially the 2nd Summer when his college coach placed him in Newport in the NECBL.  IMO, Newport is one of the very, very best of all Summer league teams and franchises.  The team receives amazing local support, play on a truly legendary field (oldest in the US with a flagpole in center and a restaurant/bar on the right field foul line and both dugouts on the same side of the field,) and get amazing treatment from the GM.  Lobsters on Newport Bay during a sail is one example.

Do players get development? They sure did in Newport.  Being able to prove you can hit and hit well and with authority, with wood, against many of the top D1 college pitchers from across the nation is one aspect. Doing it over  a Summer schedule which mirrors MILB both in terms of travel and playing demands is another. As a D3 kid, our son played along side position players from Georgia, Clemson, Boston College, Vanderbilt, University of Washington, and other similar programs.  Becoming both an All Star and being the 2nd leading hitter in the league set our son up for a spectacular senior year of college ball and eventually to be drafted.  The process confirmed how many scouts saw son that Summer and how he was a different player when he walked onto the college field to start his senior year, one which resulted in him being in the small group of D3 guys who get drafted..

One aspect which is surprising in this thread: from the time our son's college coach started recruiting him, the value of a wood bat Summer league experience was on the table, by the coach. However, it was not just baseball.  The college coach wanted baseball to expand our son's horizons and experiences into the East and New England. It was both  exposure and learning experiences well beyond baseball.  Our son would be the first to admit those Summers in New England were major development experiences, on and off the field!

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