BBDad I agree with most of your last statement. You can develop velocity and I know several who have had 10mph jumps in college. Jeff Francis as I have pointed out several times was throwing 80mph as a freshman at UBC. He couldn't get a US college to sign him. He is now mid 90s and making 13 M a year. There are several factors and varying rates developing a FB. Maturization is a mojor one.
My son is 14 and is just now developing a curveball but has only thrown a couple in a game. He lives off of the 2seamer (lot of movement) and mixes in a 4 seamer and a CU with movement. He throws well but certainly not overpowering. I think 13 is an ok age to start to develop the curve if he is already doing well with the fb/cu and will use it sparingly. Just gives the other batters something else to worry about.
Make sure he is taught good mechanics. The CB is not a violent pitch but a smooth pitch with you arm staying slightly bent after release. It is more about the wrist and fringers than the arm.
Based on what research?quote:I think Orel Hershiser had the best advice for young pitchers. He said no curveballs until 16 or older.
I don't think there is a sure right or wrong about this debate.
When my son was in LL, curves were considered risky, as were high pitch counts. His LL coach played it safe with all his pitchers and allowed no curves and kept low pitch counts (50-60). We didn't win the championships, but I thank him for this. This developed more pitchers and developed the other players defensively as more balls were put in play.
From 13-15, my son was small and a good position player, so his coaches and I erred on the side of caution with his pitching and continued the same no curves, low pitch counts. I also was not confident that he would be taught the right way to throw the curve, and I didn't want to be that helicopter parent that coaches their son from the stands. In HS, I let the coaches teach him a curve. After throwing the curve for two years, his scouting report says that his curve is his best pitch, a strong out pitch with great depth and downward break.
My point is that he didn't need to throw the curve at 12 years old for it to become his best pitch. Maybe there are kids that are getting away with throwing curves at a young age, but it wasn't worth the risk to me. Pitching success at an early age can also lead to high pitch counts and overuse on teams where winning becomes too important.
There will be new studies that may have different results than the studies we are looking at now. Look at the rules for pregnant women. Every child we had, the rules changed due to the latest studies. There have been tons of healthy babies born to smoking or drinking mothers, but we don't encourage pregant women to do these things. We weigh the risk, and make a decision.
The OP has a point, about what is the next level. Maybe the risk of curves at a young age outweighs the long odds of continuing to play beyond high school. For a pitcher only, the decision may be different than a player that has a future as a hitter and position player.
When my son was in LL, curves were considered risky, as were high pitch counts. His LL coach played it safe with all his pitchers and allowed no curves and kept low pitch counts (50-60). We didn't win the championships, but I thank him for this. This developed more pitchers and developed the other players defensively as more balls were put in play.
From 13-15, my son was small and a good position player, so his coaches and I erred on the side of caution with his pitching and continued the same no curves, low pitch counts. I also was not confident that he would be taught the right way to throw the curve, and I didn't want to be that helicopter parent that coaches their son from the stands. In HS, I let the coaches teach him a curve. After throwing the curve for two years, his scouting report says that his curve is his best pitch, a strong out pitch with great depth and downward break.
My point is that he didn't need to throw the curve at 12 years old for it to become his best pitch. Maybe there are kids that are getting away with throwing curves at a young age, but it wasn't worth the risk to me. Pitching success at an early age can also lead to high pitch counts and overuse on teams where winning becomes too important.
There will be new studies that may have different results than the studies we are looking at now. Look at the rules for pregnant women. Every child we had, the rules changed due to the latest studies. There have been tons of healthy babies born to smoking or drinking mothers, but we don't encourage pregant women to do these things. We weigh the risk, and make a decision.
The OP has a point, about what is the next level. Maybe the risk of curves at a young age outweighs the long odds of continuing to play beyond high school. For a pitcher only, the decision may be different than a player that has a future as a hitter and position player.
BBHD,
I think one of the issues with throwing too many curves at a young age is that it doesn't allow the change to develop and it doesn't develop the fastball.
Actually a lot of coaches in HS will use a curveballer who can get the ball over. HS hitters generally can't hit the curve well. It starts to change at the college level and players who can't hit the curve wash out at the pro level so the curveballers without a decent fastball tend to go away pretty quickly at the pro level if they ever get the chance to play at that level.
I think one of the issues with throwing too many curves at a young age is that it doesn't allow the change to develop and it doesn't develop the fastball.
Actually a lot of coaches in HS will use a curveballer who can get the ball over. HS hitters generally can't hit the curve well. It starts to change at the college level and players who can't hit the curve wash out at the pro level so the curveballers without a decent fastball tend to go away pretty quickly at the pro level if they ever get the chance to play at that level.
4 seamer,
Then Let’s get real serious here! Depends?
How many is the number? The youth injury rates have gone up 5 fold in ten years. This is why when prestigious firms like ASMI gets it wrong with every recommendation because they promote over-use as a culprit instead of the mechanics it shows their real competence but they are learning and they will eventually discover it also.
If your mechanics are injury free you can only suffer from diminished capacity and in human beings that is huge. Then there are only bone length issues.
At biologically aged 10 YO your sons elbow does not even show up on and X-Ray.
At biologically aged 11 YO your sons elbow starts to show up as a dime sized.
At biologically aged 12 YO your son’s elbow becomes a quarters size.
At biologically aged 13 YO your sons elbow finally solidifies where you can see it on an x-ray. Your son’s elbow is basically underdeveloped soft tissue in a vulnerable time frame. Do you know your son’s biological age?!!
This means your sons Elbow is going through a massive growth change right at this time
and if he ballisticly crashes his upper arm with his lower arm from over extension from hard supination he will put his elbow at risk for cartilage deformation that turns into bone chips later, he will put all the growth plates in the elbow area at risk of premature closure and catistrophic failure!, he will deform the bone at the crashing points (capitilum) so that he will lose extension range of motion and worse, he will be more susceptible to avulsions from his muscles have to eccentrically contract to stop the crashing from happening which causes problems in the shoulder, I can go on and on.
Supination (thumb up drive and finish) causes these problems!!
The stress levels for these pitches are
1. Supinated Cutter. Fastball with the most stress.
2. Supinated Slider. You should see the injury ratios go up in colleges and pros when these two pitches are finally taught.
3. Supinated curve while less stressful still ballisticly crashes your sons elbow together!!!!
In the middle 1960's, Dr. Joel Adams of San Bernadino, CA conducted the only credible research into the subject using x-ray analysis on over 600 youth baseball players. He found that ninety-five percent of the pitchers in his study had suffered irreparable damage to their pitching arms. Not to the point that most pitchers could not still pitch, but to the point that premature closure permanently shortened the bones of their throwing arms and perturbed and deformed All of them to some degree and many to totality.
Dr Marshall who was involved with this was the first to make this call out to the baseball world about supination and the traditionally taught curve.
Teach your sons and daughters to pronate (thumb down drive and release) so that their arm hinges and they will then only suffer from slight bone and ligament stress.
If you want a curve there is a two safe way ‘s to throw a curve pronated drive and release!! The pronated thumb slip curve (very very fun!)and the Marshall pronated curve.
quote:Alright,seriously, is 13 too young to throw 10 or so curveballs per game? Who REALLY abused his arm more?
Then Let’s get real serious here! Depends?
How many is the number? The youth injury rates have gone up 5 fold in ten years. This is why when prestigious firms like ASMI gets it wrong with every recommendation because they promote over-use as a culprit instead of the mechanics it shows their real competence but they are learning and they will eventually discover it also.
If your mechanics are injury free you can only suffer from diminished capacity and in human beings that is huge. Then there are only bone length issues.
At biologically aged 10 YO your sons elbow does not even show up on and X-Ray.
At biologically aged 11 YO your sons elbow starts to show up as a dime sized.
At biologically aged 12 YO your son’s elbow becomes a quarters size.
At biologically aged 13 YO your sons elbow finally solidifies where you can see it on an x-ray. Your son’s elbow is basically underdeveloped soft tissue in a vulnerable time frame. Do you know your son’s biological age?!!
This means your sons Elbow is going through a massive growth change right at this time
and if he ballisticly crashes his upper arm with his lower arm from over extension from hard supination he will put his elbow at risk for cartilage deformation that turns into bone chips later, he will put all the growth plates in the elbow area at risk of premature closure and catistrophic failure!, he will deform the bone at the crashing points (capitilum) so that he will lose extension range of motion and worse, he will be more susceptible to avulsions from his muscles have to eccentrically contract to stop the crashing from happening which causes problems in the shoulder, I can go on and on.
Supination (thumb up drive and finish) causes these problems!!
The stress levels for these pitches are
1. Supinated Cutter. Fastball with the most stress.
2. Supinated Slider. You should see the injury ratios go up in colleges and pros when these two pitches are finally taught.
3. Supinated curve while less stressful still ballisticly crashes your sons elbow together!!!!
In the middle 1960's, Dr. Joel Adams of San Bernadino, CA conducted the only credible research into the subject using x-ray analysis on over 600 youth baseball players. He found that ninety-five percent of the pitchers in his study had suffered irreparable damage to their pitching arms. Not to the point that most pitchers could not still pitch, but to the point that premature closure permanently shortened the bones of their throwing arms and perturbed and deformed All of them to some degree and many to totality.
Dr Marshall who was involved with this was the first to make this call out to the baseball world about supination and the traditionally taught curve.
Teach your sons and daughters to pronate (thumb down drive and release) so that their arm hinges and they will then only suffer from slight bone and ligament stress.
If you want a curve there is a two safe way ‘s to throw a curve pronated drive and release!! The pronated thumb slip curve (very very fun!)and the Marshall pronated curve.
There was a kid from Saugus, MA in the LLWS a few years ago freaking people out with how many curves he was throwing. The response was baseball was a secondary sport to him. When the LLWS was over he was done playing organized baseball.quote:The OP has a point, about what is the next level. Maybe the risk of curves at a young age outweighs the long odds of continuing to play beyond high school.
And of course Dr Mike Marshall is God's gift to the universe and has everything right while Hall of Fame pitchers have been pitching incorrectly for one hundred years. If the word Nym@n is banned from this site, I nominate the word Marshall. It's not Marshall's ideas that annoy me. It's the interjection and ruination of every thread where his culties get involved.quote:This is why when prestigious firms like ASMI gets it wrong
quote:In the middle 1960's, Dr. Joel Adams of San Bernadino, CA conducted the only credible research into the subject using x-ray analysis on over 600 youth baseball players.
Did we even have x-ray technology in the 1960's. (joking)
It sort of looks like you had to search back 45 years to find a study that supported your argument here. Not saying your right or wrong, but I would think you could find a more recent study.
Yardbird, interesting. You've got me scared to let him throw at all! Seriously. You do. But thanks for the info. It's good food for thought.
Daque, he IS playing 60/90, as well as some 54/80.Surprisingly enough, He hasn't had ANY problem going back and forth in the same week. He does have 2 and 4 seamers and a circle change. I agree that alowing him to throw the cb makes him not care as much about the cu and I hate that. His cu is his BEST pitch when he has cofidence in it. Problem is, he doesn't always get it over. He can throw a 12-6 curve over ANYTIME.And he KNOWS IT. He was taught how to throw it by a minor league pitching coach, who said it was the safe way to throw it. His pitch counts are the lowest I've ever seen because of groundballs and pop flys. He NEVER sees 50 pitches in a game. Thats why I'm so intrigued by this stuff. His ability to throw cb ANYTIME totally baffles opposing hitters. Therefore he can use it sparingly.
Daque, he IS playing 60/90, as well as some 54/80.Surprisingly enough, He hasn't had ANY problem going back and forth in the same week. He does have 2 and 4 seamers and a circle change. I agree that alowing him to throw the cb makes him not care as much about the cu and I hate that. His cu is his BEST pitch when he has cofidence in it. Problem is, he doesn't always get it over. He can throw a 12-6 curve over ANYTIME.And he KNOWS IT. He was taught how to throw it by a minor league pitching coach, who said it was the safe way to throw it. His pitch counts are the lowest I've ever seen because of groundballs and pop flys. He NEVER sees 50 pitches in a game. Thats why I'm so intrigued by this stuff. His ability to throw cb ANYTIME totally baffles opposing hitters. Therefore he can use it sparingly.
quote:Originally posted by Blprkfrnks:
I don't think there is a sure right or wrong about this debate.
When my son was in LL, curves were considered risky, as were high pitch counts. His LL coach played it safe with all his pitchers and allowed no curves and kept low pitch counts (50-60). We didn't win the championships, but I thank him for this. This developed more pitchers and developed the other players defensively as more balls were put in play.
From 13-15, my son was small and a good position player, so his coaches and I erred on the side of caution with his pitching and continued the same no curves, low pitch counts. I also was not confident that he would be taught the right way to throw the curve, and I didn't want to be that helicopter parent that coaches their son from the stands. In HS, I let the coaches teach him a curve. After throwing the curve for two years, his scouting report says that his curve is his best pitch, a strong out pitch with great depth and downward break.
My point is that he didn't need to throw the curve at 12 years old for it to become his best pitch. Maybe there are kids that are getting away with throwing curves at a young age, but it wasn't worth the risk to me. Pitching success at an early age can also lead to high pitch counts and overuse on teams where winning becomes too important.
There will be new studies that may have different results than the studies we are looking at now. Look at the rules for pregnant women. Every child we had, the rules changed due to the latest studies. There have been tons of healthy babies born to smoking or drinking mothers, but we don't encourage pregant women to do these things. We weigh the risk, and make a decision.
The OP has a point, about what is the next level. Maybe the risk of curves at a young age outweighs the long odds of continuing to play beyond high school. For a pitcher only, the decision may be different than a player that has a future as a hitter and position player.
Outstanding post. You seem more concerned with your son's development than his stats and that is the way it ought to be imho.
RJM - Hershiser seems like a reputable source to me and his logic made sense to me. He said he developed that notion from Walter Alston who also seems like a reputable source to me. hokione's logic makes sense to me as well.
Look, people are entitlted to their opinions. If you think young players ought to be throwing curves then so be it - I could care less what your research tells you. I would rather be safe than sorry. As some of the posts have pointed out, you may be robbing them of the chance to properly develop their fastballs. The fastball will always be the most important pitch in baseball imho. Why do you think the guys who get drafted the highest each year have the best fastballs?
quote:In the middle 1960's, Dr. Joel Adams of San Bernadino, CA conducted the only credible research into the subject using x-ray analysis on over 600 youth baseball players. He found that ninety-five percent of the pitchers in his study had suffered irreparable damage to their pitching arms.
In 1782 a study conducted by a group of Native American shamen and mages found that using juniper plants ground into a juicy pile it could be used to cure ingrown toenails. Also, if applied to the elbow then it can help the recovery time of throwing spears.
Another study conducted in 1238 by a group of wizards found that hog's tooth ground into a powder and mixed with wolfsbane would create a cream that could cure halitosis - or as they called it back then "devil's breath" because anything that smelled that bad had to come from the devil.
There are some really great scientific studies from way back when. I really like the one where leeches could suck the evil out of a person. That alone probably revolutionized the world of medicine more than anything.
Yardbird I actually agree with a couple things you posted.
I don't agree with the CB bone crahing if you keep you elbow at shoulder level and do not straighten your arm out at finish.
I don't think you can throw a ball without some stress on ligaments. That is why you work so hard on strengthening them.
I don't agree with the CB bone crahing if you keep you elbow at shoulder level and do not straighten your arm out at finish.
I don't think you can throw a ball without some stress on ligaments. That is why you work so hard on strengthening them.
24 learned to throw a cb at age 12, but did not use it in games until he moved to the 90 foot diamond. Before that he got by with a 2 seam and 4 seam FB.
Now as a varsity HS picher, the CB is his out pitch. He locates it well and can throw it at any count. But he throws it less than 30% of the time.
The only arm issues he has had, in my humble opinion, occured from overuse, not from the properly thrown CB.
Agree with 4 seamer, the ability to throw the CB at any point is most effective, but you don't have to throw it all the time.
Now as a varsity HS picher, the CB is his out pitch. He locates it well and can throw it at any count. But he throws it less than 30% of the time.
The only arm issues he has had, in my humble opinion, occured from overuse, not from the properly thrown CB.
Agree with 4 seamer, the ability to throw the CB at any point is most effective, but you don't have to throw it all the time.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Bobblehead
I respectfully disagree
Speaking as a hitters dad to a pitchers dad the toughest pitch for a good hitter is the slider--
i just wanted to say i disagree unless the guy throws 100 mph.
otherwise you have time to see the "dot" that forms on a conventional slider and is absolutely obvious and the hitter
What makes Orel Hershiser and Walter Alston experts on youth baseball? What evidence did they provide to validate their opinions on youth baseball? Otherwise it's no more of an opinion than anyone elses. We could even call it a wild guess. And I'll bet there are many youth coaches who have done more homework on youth pitching than Hershiser and Alston.quote:Hershiser seems like a reputable source to me and his logic made sense to me. He said he developed that notion from Walter Alston who also seems like a reputable source to me.
I'm not saying I know more about pitching than Hershiser and Alston. But I'll bet I've done a lot more research and talked or exchanged emails with experts on youth sports than Hershiser and Alston. I'll take legitmate advice from respected members of this board before taking it from them.
RJM,
Are you still reading my posts? I warned you before that you have the right to bypass them! Breath.
Is this true? How did you get that done? Here let me see, *****?
Then I will use Dr.MM
Do vexed people recognize their vexism?
I think that’s only for you and a few others?
We are cool aid drinkers not Cultists and we use sugar not strychnine.
Breath!
Blprkfrnks,
All kinesiological finding since support the merits of the research and have been used in the development in the football throw, racket drive (tennis and badminton), javelin and other overhead projection which they all incorporate pronation into their pedagogy! Baseball is the only traditional sport to not take advantage of the information fully.
I would love to see the baseball community (MLB and Colleges) pay for an actual combined effort to replicate the original discovery and corrective recommendations. Unfortunately the Org’s that people look up to refuse to recognize the research because they have been selling their injurious product for so long they have become intransigent.
Are you still reading my posts? I warned you before that you have the right to bypass them! Breath.
quote:“If the word Nym@n is banned from this site”
Is this true? How did you get that done? Here let me see, *****?
quote:“I nominate the word Marshall”
Then I will use Dr.MM
quote:“It's not Marshall's ideas that annoy me.”
Do vexed people recognize their vexism?
quote:“It's the interjection and ruination of every thread”
I think that’s only for you and a few others?
quote:“where his culties get involved.”
We are cool aid drinkers not Cultists and we use sugar not strychnine.
Breath!
Blprkfrnks,
quote:“It sort of looks like you had to search back 45 years to find a study that supported your argument here.”
All kinesiological finding since support the merits of the research and have been used in the development in the football throw, racket drive (tennis and badminton), javelin and other overhead projection which they all incorporate pronation into their pedagogy! Baseball is the only traditional sport to not take advantage of the information fully.
quote:“Not saying your right or wrong, but I would think you could find a more recent study.”
I would love to see the baseball community (MLB and Colleges) pay for an actual combined effort to replicate the original discovery and corrective recommendations. Unfortunately the Org’s that people look up to refuse to recognize the research because they have been selling their injurious product for so long they have become intransigent.
I don't agree that the cb is bad on the arm. I believe mostly it is a tradition passed from one generation to the next on the baseball field. The issue I have is with throwing too many hard fastballs on improperly conditioned arms- that is what damages arms in my opinion. It just so happens that kids with really hard fastballs also have really good curves (usually) and in my opinion the cb gets balmed for the damage that the fastball has done on the weakened arm.
Most kids who learn to throw the cb do it naturally on their own and it usually starts out as more of a frisbee type of slow pitch or changeup for the first year or two with som tumble or slight break effect. A kid throwing 45-55 mph curveballs at age 12 is not going to be putting their arm in any real stress- it's just not thrown hard enough! And when they finally do get to have a feel for it by the time they are 13-14 it is a true breaking ball that in my opinion can be thrown fairly often in games with no ill effects. its the fastball count they must watch! Fastballs are generally thrown at a near max or max effort. This means that they are pushing the very limits of what their bone and muscles structures can handle at early ages.
Also, I have recorded a lot of kids pitching over the past few years and I have yet to find but just a few 11-14 year old kids throwing their cb with a supination release. Almost every kid I watch pronates either during or immediately following release. This to me tells me that they are getting the ball more out in front at release and getting their hand flicking down like a fastball at release.
Its kind of interesting as to how many times in a youth game where after 3-4 innings of pitching fastaballs, the youth pitcher will say "my arm is getting sore" and it raises no alarms whatsoever and yet- if that kid even threw just one cb, everyone is saying how it was because of the cb that his arm hurts and that the coach should know better.
Let's put place the buck where it belongs! Sore arms and weakened muscles are almost entirely from throwing too many fastballs on an improperly conditioned arm.
Most kids who learn to throw the cb do it naturally on their own and it usually starts out as more of a frisbee type of slow pitch or changeup for the first year or two with som tumble or slight break effect. A kid throwing 45-55 mph curveballs at age 12 is not going to be putting their arm in any real stress- it's just not thrown hard enough! And when they finally do get to have a feel for it by the time they are 13-14 it is a true breaking ball that in my opinion can be thrown fairly often in games with no ill effects. its the fastball count they must watch! Fastballs are generally thrown at a near max or max effort. This means that they are pushing the very limits of what their bone and muscles structures can handle at early ages.
Also, I have recorded a lot of kids pitching over the past few years and I have yet to find but just a few 11-14 year old kids throwing their cb with a supination release. Almost every kid I watch pronates either during or immediately following release. This to me tells me that they are getting the ball more out in front at release and getting their hand flicking down like a fastball at release.
Its kind of interesting as to how many times in a youth game where after 3-4 innings of pitching fastaballs, the youth pitcher will say "my arm is getting sore" and it raises no alarms whatsoever and yet- if that kid even threw just one cb, everyone is saying how it was because of the cb that his arm hurts and that the coach should know better.
Let's put place the buck where it belongs! Sore arms and weakened muscles are almost entirely from throwing too many fastballs on an improperly conditioned arm.
Improper throwing mechanics.
Trying to throw too much without throwing enough.
Overuse especially at a young age.
The players that have good throwing mechanics , throw on a regular basis and are not overused hardly ever complain of a sore arm. The rest constantly do.
Trying to throw too much without throwing enough.
Overuse especially at a young age.
The players that have good throwing mechanics , throw on a regular basis and are not overused hardly ever complain of a sore arm. The rest constantly do.
4 seamer,
Just the supinated ones, be scared from those.
He can learn throw all the pitch movements to the glove side and to the ball arm side of home plate by pronating your drive and release even with a traditional leg lift!
That’s a start? I was hoping for your child you would now test it?
This pitch is powerfully pronated usually? Very good!
This is good; it gives him the best chance of pronating voluntarily!
You need to High-speed video him and see if he is supinating the drive and finish?
If he is supinating? His hand will and forearm will travel to its elastic point and the after release it will involuntarily pronate back the other way, NOT good enough!!!
Did he show you High-speed video to back up his claim? Did he tell you about the difference between the two movements?
Clevelanddad,
Unfortunately Orals son Has just had UCL reconstructive surgery playing at USC.
Tom House does not recognize the research either apparently?
Walter Alston is one of the managers whom gave the ball to Marshall and told Lasorda to stay out of his way, what irony, I’ll bet Marshall reported his findings to Walt in his many conversations with him?
Coach 2709,
35,000 years ago the aboriginals did a study on the Melaleuca Alterifolia tree and found it healed all their infections so well that this tea tree oil was mandatory carry by the Austrailian soldiers in WWII and to this day the discovery is still used!
That’s Ironic Leaches are used today in modern medicine for over 20 different procedures and the list keeps growing as the research continues. Many pharmasutical firms are trying to copy what the leaches produce.
When life hands you Kool- make Kool aid
Bobbleheaddoll,
Keeping your elbow at shoulder level is caused by humeral and forearm fly-out (centripetal imperative) guaranteeing this ballistic hyperextension!!
This is why I said, “Teach your sons and daughters to pronate (thumb down drive and release) so that their arm hinges and they will then only suffer from slight bone and ligament stress.”
24&34dad,
This is the classic mistake everybody is missing ”over use” does not exist when your mechanics are non-injurious, this makes the problem mechanical not use.
Have you high speed videoed his curve? And do you understand what constitutes a safe curve?
quote:“Yardbird, interesting. You've got me scared to let him throw at all!”
Just the supinated ones, be scared from those.
He can learn throw all the pitch movements to the glove side and to the ball arm side of home plate by pronating your drive and release even with a traditional leg lift!
quote:“It's good food for thought.”
That’s a start? I was hoping for your child you would now test it?
quote:“a circle change.”
This pitch is powerfully pronated usually? Very good!
quote:“He can throw a 12-6 curve over ANYTIME.And he KNOWS IT.”
This is good; it gives him the best chance of pronating voluntarily!
You need to High-speed video him and see if he is supinating the drive and finish?
If he is supinating? His hand will and forearm will travel to its elastic point and the after release it will involuntarily pronate back the other way, NOT good enough!!!
quote:“ He was taught how to throw it by a minor league pitching coach, who said it was the safe way to throw it. “
Did he show you High-speed video to back up his claim? Did he tell you about the difference between the two movements?
Clevelanddad,
quote:“Hershiser seems like a reputable source to me and his logic made sense to me.”
Unfortunately Orals son Has just had UCL reconstructive surgery playing at USC.
Tom House does not recognize the research either apparently?
quote:“Walter Alston who also seems like a reputable source.”
Walter Alston is one of the managers whom gave the ball to Marshall and told Lasorda to stay out of his way, what irony, I’ll bet Marshall reported his findings to Walt in his many conversations with him?
Coach 2709,
quote:“In 1782 a study conducted by a group of Native American shamen “
35,000 years ago the aboriginals did a study on the Melaleuca Alterifolia tree and found it healed all their infections so well that this tea tree oil was mandatory carry by the Austrailian soldiers in WWII and to this day the discovery is still used!
quote:“There are some really great scientific studies from way back when. I really like the one where leeches could suck the evil out of a person.”
That’s Ironic Leaches are used today in modern medicine for over 20 different procedures and the list keeps growing as the research continues. Many pharmasutical firms are trying to copy what the leaches produce.
When life hands you Kool- make Kool aid
Bobbleheaddoll,
quote:”I don't agree with the CB bone crashing if you keep you elbow at shoulder level and do not straighten your arm out at finish.”
Keeping your elbow at shoulder level is caused by humeral and forearm fly-out (centripetal imperative) guaranteeing this ballistic hyperextension!!
quote:“I don't think you can throw a ball without some stress on ligaments.”
This is why I said, “Teach your sons and daughters to pronate (thumb down drive and release) so that their arm hinges and they will then only suffer from slight bone and ligament stress.”
24&34dad,
quote:“The only arm issues he has had, in my humble opinion, occured from overuse, not from the properly thrown CB.”
This is the classic mistake everybody is missing ”over use” does not exist when your mechanics are non-injurious, this makes the problem mechanical not use.
Have you high speed videoed his curve? And do you understand what constitutes a safe curve?
Yardbird;
When 24 was 14 he was over pitched and had some pain. It was at a time where he was simply used too much. If you look at the video of him at that time and now 4 years later his mechanics are about the same and you can't tell the difference in the way he throws his curve ball between now and then.
So we can agree to disagree on what causes this. What I believe and what I share with this forum is that 24 had no issues from a properly thrown curve ball at any point since age 12.
My advice is that overuse is the main concern and not the choice of pitch.
When 24 was 14 he was over pitched and had some pain. It was at a time where he was simply used too much. If you look at the video of him at that time and now 4 years later his mechanics are about the same and you can't tell the difference in the way he throws his curve ball between now and then.
So we can agree to disagree on what causes this. What I believe and what I share with this forum is that 24 had no issues from a properly thrown curve ball at any point since age 12.
My advice is that overuse is the main concern and not the choice of pitch.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
my son threw 90% CBs. He is 23 and no arm problems ever. He perfected a couple CBs at 10-11yo and days they are less stresful than a FB.
If you get an Ump like Therefump you might want to rethink the CBs with him and guys like him.
Perhaps throwing 90% CB's as a youth pitcher made him a star, and got a college scholarship, but wondering if not throwing FB more than CB's has hurt his college game? How has 90% CB helped him, even learning the safe way?
FWIW, right now at the pro level I would say 80% son is required to throw FB, most likey due to his velocity. Don't misunderstand, he has good breaking stuff, and probably have more success using more of it, but JMoff is correct, that is what they do at the pro level. Sure he gets hit alot, and this year more than ever. His FB and his velocity got him where he is, so if you think that throwing 90% CB's is a good thing fir development of young pitchers, you are definetly WRONG.
Putting aside risk arguments, FB is the pitch to concentrate on, IMO, until you reach HS. A youth pitcher should throw more percentages of his pitches the FB, period.
There is nothing wrong with being a soft tosser, one can have success, but the more you use breaking balls in place of the FB, the less practice you are giving your FB. Put two pitchers together, one a very successful soft tosser using breaking pitches more often to keep them off balance, the FB pitcher who may not always be in control. The latter gets more opportunities. This is not to diss any very good pitcher who has success, but reality is, teh FB is where it's at. Anyone see Porcello pitch? Great FB with great velocity, he will learn how to use his breaking stuff effectively, not the other way around. The only way you develop that, is throwing it more often (in game situations) when younger, you can work on the other stuff once you can dominate with your FB and you reach, what some feel, a safe age to throw more breaking balls. Learn the CU. The other stuff should only be to compliment and aid in a pitchers success.
Let's not bring up the guys of yesterday and their success, or the very far and few between Moyers, who by the way uses his experience to win MLB games. If he was a young pitcher starting out, he wouldn't be as successful because most don't get beyond a certain level. The game is totally different these days, at the HS level, the college level and the pro level.
Much rather see my player struggle while developing his FB and a good CU and velocity while young and have greater success later on.
That's the whole idea in developing a good pitcher.
JMO.
quote:Improper throwing mechanics.
Trying to throw too much without throwing enough.
Overuse especially at a young age.
The players that have good throwing mechanics , throw on a regular basis and are not overused hardly ever complain of a sore arm. The rest constantly do.
What can I say..Amen and Amen.
If we can narrow the focus to the parameters of this portion of the board, we can also narrow the pitches. We are talking about the pre HS set. There are varying field dimensions to take into account. If we further narrow the age group to 13 and over but pre HS, it will will be prety safe to assume we are on the full size diamond. Pony ball and some tournaments excepted.
So with that in mind we are still talking about kids with open growth centers who are pitching from 60'6".
As was mentioned, pitches that call for supination of the forearm (palm up), which includes the slider and the slurve or little league curve, should not be utilized in this age group.
The slurve should not be used since it has injury potential and because it is a pitch that will be bombed on the full sized field. I have seen deformed elbows with limitation of motion by kids who fell in love with this pitch on the small diamond.
The slider is very hard on the medial side of the elbow but is an acceptable pitch once the elbow growth plates are closed. Most recommendations I have seen advise waiting until age 18 before utilizing the slider.
The curve is not an effective pitch on the small diamond for two reasons. 1. There is not enough distance for it to drop. 2. The kids are not strong enough to get the rotational velocity necessary to make it drop. So what happens is the kids start mixing in some lateral rotation and generate the slurve which is effective.
Also noted above is the reality that this is a fun pitch to watch as batters screw themselves into the ground. The ball drops and breaks laterally. The rotation is about 45 degrees.
Strictly from a coaching perspective, breaking pitches that are rotationally induced are not effective on smaller diamonds. Encourage younger pitchers (before the full sized diamond) to use grip induced moving pitches. Specifically any one of a variety of change ups. But by age 13 they can begin developing the true curve once they can throw it 60'6" with correct rotation and technique. Amen.
So with that in mind we are still talking about kids with open growth centers who are pitching from 60'6".
As was mentioned, pitches that call for supination of the forearm (palm up), which includes the slider and the slurve or little league curve, should not be utilized in this age group.
The slurve should not be used since it has injury potential and because it is a pitch that will be bombed on the full sized field. I have seen deformed elbows with limitation of motion by kids who fell in love with this pitch on the small diamond.
The slider is very hard on the medial side of the elbow but is an acceptable pitch once the elbow growth plates are closed. Most recommendations I have seen advise waiting until age 18 before utilizing the slider.
The curve is not an effective pitch on the small diamond for two reasons. 1. There is not enough distance for it to drop. 2. The kids are not strong enough to get the rotational velocity necessary to make it drop. So what happens is the kids start mixing in some lateral rotation and generate the slurve which is effective.
Also noted above is the reality that this is a fun pitch to watch as batters screw themselves into the ground. The ball drops and breaks laterally. The rotation is about 45 degrees.
Strictly from a coaching perspective, breaking pitches that are rotationally induced are not effective on smaller diamonds. Encourage younger pitchers (before the full sized diamond) to use grip induced moving pitches. Specifically any one of a variety of change ups. But by age 13 they can begin developing the true curve once they can throw it 60'6" with correct rotation and technique. Amen.
quote:Originally posted by Daque:
Encourage younger pitchers (before the full sized diamond) to use grip induced moving pitches. Specifically any one of a variety of change ups. But by age 13 they can begin developing the true curve once they can throw it 60'6" with correct rotation and technique. Amen.
TPM my son's college game was very good intil his JR year. It isn't lack of velo that hurt him last year and he has had some grest games this year against top teams. He is hitting 86-87 this year and for a LHP that is good velo. The scouts are talking to him but he isn't interested. He isn't driven to play pro ball. As far as we are concerned we have gotten more out of this experience than expected. We are dissapointed in the lack of consistency in the coaching. 4 new P coaches in 4 years The 1st one and last one were good but the 2 in the middle weren't. Hopefully the new guy will stick it out.
This year was strange. The new coaches are a vast improvement over the last 3 years but their focus was on developing their freshmen and sophs for next year. They were up front about it but it is a strange twist to my son's final year.
This year was strange. The new coaches are a vast improvement over the last 3 years but their focus was on developing their freshmen and sophs for next year. They were up front about it but it is a strange twist to my son's final year.
quote:Trying to throw too much without throwing enough.
Change that to trying to pitch too much and I will agree.
If there was some maagic way to go back to the number of games played in the 1970's nobody would have to care about the kind of pitches you threw nor about how many you threw. And you wouldn't have arm pain either.
bobble,
Congrats to your son on his accomplishments.
Congrats to your son on his accomplishments.
Daque,
You sure seem to know your stuff.
Just curious... How bad is the Swine Flu in Chapala?
You sure seem to know your stuff.
Just curious... How bad is the Swine Flu in Chapala?
PG thanks. He is a happy youngman.
Davidson is with the Marlins now.
Davidson is with the Marlins now.
I speak as a college pitcher's Dad. Like Hershiser said, don't throw curveballs until you are at least 16 if you want to pitch later, and no sliders either. Work on the change and locating the fastball. It's not an "if" issue, but a "when" issue.
Bobble,
Yea, that's great about Davidson. Is Joey Votto headed to the Hall of Fame or what... Hee Haw! Seriously, will he ever stop hitting?
Yea, that's great about Davidson. Is Joey Votto headed to the Hall of Fame or what... Hee Haw! Seriously, will he ever stop hitting?
24&34Dad,
I hear ya, I threw my curve 12/6 with emphasis since I was 8 and never hurt my elbow either.
I did receive loss of extension and flexion range of motion that I still possess. No injury, yet I am deformed?
Have you checked 24’s Elbow ranges ever or recently?
I hear ya, I threw my curve 12/6 with emphasis since I was 8 and never hurt my elbow either.
I did receive loss of extension and flexion range of motion that I still possess. No injury, yet I am deformed?
Have you checked 24’s Elbow ranges ever or recently?
I talked to Davidson and he is concerned about his fiture even though he got picked up.
Joey is doing great.
Joey is doing great.
Let me summarize:
1.) There is no easy answer to this question
2.) Every kid is different
3.) Coaches need to know their players, how much they can throw before mechanics breaking down, how many of each type of pitch they can throw before they break down, etc.
4.) Key, having the wisdom to get them out before they hurt themselves when they start to break down.
My advice:
Find a coach who knows what he's doing. To re-iterate an earlier post; my son, who many would consider a protegee' wasn't allowed to throw the CB until he was 14 because he couldn't demonstarte enough consistancy. Same pitching coach routinely teaches CB to 10U players. He is a pitching coach for many in my side of Phoenix.
More advice that people won't like:
Find a former pro who knows about pitching. Hire him as your kid's club ball pitching coach (assuming he has no kids on the team). Pay him ~$500 /mo to teach during bull pens and coach during tournaments. Give him autonomous authority to make pitching decisions (changes, pitch calling, pick-offs, etc).
He won't be tied to winning / losing only developing the kids. If you find the right guy, you'll go home losing sometimes, but your kid will never be hurt. My son played on such a team the last year and a half. Tyrone Tycise was my son's pitching coach and he was amazing. I fully expect he'll be hired into pro ball sometime soon.
The worst part is that I don't think we paid him nearly as much as I suggest here...
1.) There is no easy answer to this question
2.) Every kid is different
3.) Coaches need to know their players, how much they can throw before mechanics breaking down, how many of each type of pitch they can throw before they break down, etc.
4.) Key, having the wisdom to get them out before they hurt themselves when they start to break down.
My advice:
Find a coach who knows what he's doing. To re-iterate an earlier post; my son, who many would consider a protegee' wasn't allowed to throw the CB until he was 14 because he couldn't demonstarte enough consistancy. Same pitching coach routinely teaches CB to 10U players. He is a pitching coach for many in my side of Phoenix.
More advice that people won't like:
Find a former pro who knows about pitching. Hire him as your kid's club ball pitching coach (assuming he has no kids on the team). Pay him ~$500 /mo to teach during bull pens and coach during tournaments. Give him autonomous authority to make pitching decisions (changes, pitch calling, pick-offs, etc).
He won't be tied to winning / losing only developing the kids. If you find the right guy, you'll go home losing sometimes, but your kid will never be hurt. My son played on such a team the last year and a half. Tyrone Tycise was my son's pitching coach and he was amazing. I fully expect he'll be hired into pro ball sometime soon.
The worst part is that I don't think we paid him nearly as much as I suggest here...
I believe paying for a pitching coach before hitting the big field is a waste of money. If a kid can't pitch mechanically sound enough on the small field, don't pitch him often. No one becomes a high school pitching prospect from 46 or 50 feet.
What in the world is a HS pitching "prospect?" 
My son is 14 years old, lefty, and rarely does he throw a curve ball. He really doesn't need to at this time, his 2 seamer moves on its own along with a good located 4 seamer and a good change up and mixing speeds and good movement... so far it seems to be working for him on the big field better than what it did throwing from 54 feet. I think probably good mechanics, using a good fluid motion in a pitcher's delivery along with not overusing the arm and plenty of rest in between pitching starts is probably the best way to go. However, one thing that really bothers me this year watching high school ball, is how some of the coaches absolutely overwork their pitchers. T-bone played against a kid that threw 96 pitches in a game against his team and 75% of the pitches thrown were curve balls. Totally ridiculous for a 14 year old. I swear one of that kid's arms was 5" longer than the other one by the time they took him out of that game. At that time, T-bone's team was winning 8-0. To me that is absolutely stupid of those coaches to put a kid through that.
My point is the parents of preteen pitchers don't need to spend money for their kids to learn how to pitch on mini fields. Once in his teens, if the kid is still interested in pitching, then training isn't a bad idea. I believe any kid whose parents are forking over big bucks for training aspires to play high school ball. I've never heard a kid or parent say the goal is to be the best 12U player ever. The parents pumping over the big bucks have big dreams and they reach past high school.quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:
What in the world is a HS pitching "prospect?"
I recently watched a college game with a retired college coach. He said when he dropped off his grandson at a baseball facility he stayed and watched for a while. He was shocked how much money is being thrown away at those places on little kids and kids without visible talent.