Curveballs

The curve has inaccurately been blamed for youth pitcher arm problems. Dr. Fleisig of ASMI (founded by Dr. Andrews) researched youth pitchers, curves and arm problems. He could not come up with evidence a properly thrown curve places any more stress on an arm than a properly thrown fastball. The problem is a majority of young pitchers do not throw a mechanically sound curve placing excess stress on their arms. Dr. Fleisig found the number one cause of arm problems in youth pitchers is overuse.

From an Umpire's perspective: throw strikes! Period. At 13 yrs old throwing strikes should be more important than developing a curve ball. Location location location. Lastly, there are 8 other fielders out there to assist the pitcher.

my son threw 90% CBs. He is 23 and no arm problems ever. He perfected a couple CBs at 10-11yo and days they are less stresful than a FB.
If you get an Ump like Therefump you might want to rethink the CBs with him and guys like him.

My son's pitching coach will teach pitchers curve balls when they can demonstrate a repeatable arm slot and consistant body control. He has taught it to 10U players with success.

He made my son wait till 14U because he simply didn't have a repeatable delivery.

I agree with the comments on strikes. I also believe the first offspeed pitch to learn is a change. I believe a properly thrown curve ball is a safe pitch. I believe an IMPROPERLY thrown curve ball is a dangerous pitch. I believe mechanics break down when a pitcher is tired and the ability to throw a curve ball with good mechanics gets dangerous when the pitcher gets tired.

My son's pitching coach was a MLB pitcher who threw FB & Chg. He also had Tommy John surgery. He'd tell you that FB / Chg is supposed to be safe and that the definition of a bad pitch for an arm is the last pitch thrown before an injury occurs and that isn't the root cause of the problem.

If the kid can throw it with good mechanics and was properly taught, let him throw it. 10 curves a game? I don't think its a big deal, as long as he's doing it correctly. 40 curves in 60 pitches? Probably a bad idea. They should learn to throw the FB and work off that with the change up / curve. Most MiLB programs work that way, so 13U shouldn't be any different.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
my son threw 90% CBs. He is 23 and no arm problems ever. He perfected a couple CBs at 10-11yo and days they are less stresful than a FB.
If you get an Ump like Therefump you might want to rethink the CBs with him and guys like him.

BHD - this advice seems reckless to me on a number of fronts.

Using anecdotal evidence of one is not proof of anything. Maybe your son was merely lucky using an improper technique Moreover, maybe he is having arm problems and you just do not want to see or hear of it.

I think Orel Hershiser had the best advice for young pitchers. He said no curveballs until 16 or older. Said the key was to learn how to locate the fastball - up, down, inside, and out, within or near the strike zone. After mastering the fastball, then offspeed pitches could be added to the mix as the player matured.

I am familiar with the ASMI study but I still use caution with the CB.

My step-son (14 years old) had arm pain this year and my wife took him to a sports doctor. The doctor has treated several baseball players (his injury ended up being a strained labrum (probably more from pitching in cold weather). The doctor told my wife that he should not throw the CB for a couple of years. He also said that players should take at least 2 months off per year (no throwing).

There was an article in Baseball America earlier this year where the Oregon State (I think) pitching coach stated that pitchers should throw 2/3 fastballs. My feeling is that young pitchers should work on developing their FB and CU because that will get them to the next level. I have noticed that pitchers that have too many pitches in their arsonal haven't developed their primary pitches as much as pitchers that have fewer (every pitcher is different).

CB pitchers at pitching distances less than 60'6" will have to redevelop their CB every time they move distances any way.

I don't think it's bad to do it in moderation as long as you get a pro - ie. pitching coach - to approve that he is throwing it correctly. I got the green light for my son to throw his from multiple resources before I let him throw it.

I also agree that a good fastball and CU should be developed either before or while you throw the breaking ball. You will need them as you get older. My son, at 10, had good command of his FB and threw a wicked CU. He would corkscrew batters into the ground with it. That FB/CU combo worked great for him until he got to be about 12.

The problem was that he threw harder than most at his age. Not many could catch up to his FB. When guys did connect, hit balls were to right field. Throwing a CU would bring the speed down to their bat speed. He did develop a breaking ball that was pretty effective and would use it as his K pitch. CU was still used on occasion with some of the bigger, stronger hitters he faced, but overall for 12, 13 & 14 it was tough to use the CU alot. We did continue to work on the CU in lessons and bull pen sessions.

This year he is a freshman in HS. He pitched as a starter for his varsity team. His CU has been VERY valuable. He has thrown the CU way more than the breaking ball. He pitched against the (at the time) #1 team in the largest division in the state (they wound up the season at #3). He lost to them 1-0, but only threw 3 breaking balls the whole game. It was all about the FB/CU combination. At the HS varsity level, hitters can adjust to any speed fastball, so you really have to keep the batters out of their rythm with the CU. BTW, he is throwing mid 80's FB, low 70's CU.

My point is that I don't think there is a problem with throwing a breaking ball at the earlier ages as long as you make sure you are throwing it in a way that is mechanically sound and you continue to work on the FB and CU. They are both very valuable pitches.

bballman, I agree the CU is very valuable and should be learned early. 13 year olds have holes in their swings big enough to drive trucks through. Throwing all curve balls is a waste of time and arms. Find the holes and hit the holes in the strike zone and he will be succesful. Painting the black at the knees should be learned as soon as possible.

Almost no one can be successful in the long run without developing and establishing a fastball. If you can't establish a fastball, then find another position on the field.

EDIT: Establishing a fastball after moving to the "big" field is a long and grueling process for many, but unavoidable. If it was easy everybody would do it.

This seems like a great topic for debate and will always be relevant here on the hsbbweb. I am going to link this into the General Forum. Love to hear everyone's opinion on this topic.

Here's my point, What is the next level? H.S. maybe? This kid isn't going pro. I'm a proud dad but c'mon. He's got a change up, but I think there aren't as many places in the count you can throw it as a curveball. With the bats they have today, a fastball will get you pounded out of the game by the 10 run rule unless you can locate it EVERYTIME. Miss once, and it's in the woods. If he was going to be a highly sought after recruit, I would look at it differently. But how many pitchers does the typical H.S. team really use? If there are 2 kids better than him, he won't be pitching after next year anyway.

My son 15 freshman is more of a fb pitcher than anything right now. He does throw a changeup and cu but bread and butter is his fb 2-4 seam. He is very accurate and has good mvt. What I have noticed (and I am not as experinced as many posters) in summer ball and HS is the kids who rely on fb more and have a above avg speed (my son at 15 as of March 28 throws low 80's which is very good but not outstanding) are more reliable then the junk pitchers who seem to have great stuff or can't throw a strike , many became junk pitchers because they don't have a good fastball so they can't fallback on it. I know there are kids who throw junk and are pretty accurate but I am saying "in general" and "from what I've seen". The best thing for my son was that he isn't fast enough to throw it by a good hitter so he has stressed location and mvt. and so far so good.

A few things:

Why learn to throw a curve at any distance other than 60ft 6 inches ?--learning at a shorter distance does no good as he will have to learn anew on the fullsize field---a kid from 12 to 15 with a decent fastball and good location and movement does not need a curveball

HS teams will use a number of pitchers. My experience is that they will have at least 3 starters for region/conference games. These starters may go the complete game, but there are many times when you need relief pitching. So, there are two more guys you need. Lots of times when the teams play in non region/conference games, they like to start guys who don't normally start.

Just like anywhere else, you can't have too many pitchers. One of the downfalls of our HS team this year was that we didn't have enough quality pitching. We had 3 starters (freshman and 2 sophmores), and after that we had one kid who could come in and pitch reasonably well. He wound up starting several games. After that we struggled. We really needed more relief guys.

I wouldn't downplay the need for quality pitchers on a HS team. Usually the teams with the deepest pitching staffs are the ones who perform the best.

CD all the pitchers in our area threw CBs at a young age. They were taught properly. In fact it was Tom House that said CBs if thrown properly will not stress your arm. All the guys who threw hard at 14- 15 were having arm problems. Several of the hard throwers had TJ surgery.
The [roblem is that once people get a thought in their head about CBs being harmful they can't admit that they were operating on misinformation. Evem ASMI has shown that they are misinformed.
My son would probably not have played college ball without his CB.
The other thing is he also had a great CU and he struck out a lot of elite players with his FB including guys who played D1 and pro ball. That includes a guy who played at CC and now is with the Angels. 3 CBs for 3 strikes.

I've seen kids at 13 that were so-so, only to grow and mature into solid prospects by 16. So how do you really know for sure?

My analysis is simple: I put my left hand on my right elbow and mimic the curve ball motion; the torque tells me it is more stressful than the fastball motion.

A fastball,a changeup, and control will get a pitcher through for a long while before they need to develop Uncle Charlie.

In Virginia, there's a tall sophmore lefty throwing 88-89 that has college offers (unofficial of course, but the verbal commitments are already out there). He is still only allowed to throw fastballs and changeups. In my humble opinion, he has a very smart dad and coach.

bballman, I agree that they need it. I'm saying realistically, they're gonna play the way your team is playing;using a couple. They're playing to win. Period. They're gonna throw those studs whenever they can and could care less about their arms. I believe location is everything. I just don't like losing because we throw one fastball in the zone to each hitter and he lines it in a gap. I'd rather mix in a "few" breaking balls to make them respect my pitcher. Then they have to think a little bit. Now they aren't sitting on a FB. I think if you throw one breaking ball per at bat, and throw about 12 pitches per inning, yopu're not hurting the arm. I believe it's throwing them in practice and living on them during a game that does the damage. Just wondering if anybody else agrees.

46, I agree to an extent. Yes, you do have to have a good reliable fastball and you have to be able to spot it. But, we play in a region in which there are 23 D-1 signees and a bunch of other guys signed to other colleges. You can't just throw well placed fastballs.

When Bballson threw too many fastballs in a row, he got hit. Not always hard, but the ball was getting through. When he mixed things up, even with just the FB and CU, he was successful. When he left the FB up, it got hammered more times than not. I can't tell you how many times he threw 3 or 4 fastballs in a row to a hitter and had the last one served up for at least a single. Granted, many of them were not hit hard, but they would hit a single off the handle on an inside pitch, or off the end of the bat into opposite field on a FB at the knees on the outside corner.

The biggest thing I preached to him all season was mix up your pitches. Change speed. If coach/catcher calls too many fastballs, shake him off and change speeds. Must be done. He was throwing probably 84-85 by the end of the season. That is enough to blow a fastball by one of these big guys if they are looking for a CU, but not if you throw them 3 FB's in a row, no matter where you put them.

4seamer. I agree with that. As I stated earlier, I personally don't have a problem with throwing breaking balls at that age as long as you are doing it right and as long as you don't rely on it without continuing to develop your FB and CU.

Like I said, my son relied more on the FB/breaking ball combo at that time due to his FB velo.

By the way, our HS coaches were very concerned about pitchers arm health. Starts were generally 1x per week. All pitchers had pitch counts. Rest between starts was a big deal. I really didn't see too many guys overthrown. Realize that in HS, you generally only play 3 games a week. Unless you have rainouts to make up and you have to squeeze a bunch of games in a short period of time. In that case, you will need more pitchers.

TR my son had no problem adjusting to the larger field. Once you have the feel for the CB it is easy to adjust.
A great CB is next to unhittable.

We were very aware of all the issues and we kept a close eye on any pain. There just wasn't any pain. He did all the right things based on professional advice. Our local organization alway brought pros in for training to teach kids proper fielding etc. Maybe we just had better advice than most. This also includes a Chyropractor who worked with the Rangers, Tom House and Nolan Ryan.
Pretty easy to cxall something reckless when you don't know any better.
Pitching is risky. You take the risk with knowledghe.

I would also point out that this pedjudice against CBs exists in college aswell as HS.

Bobblehead

I respectfully disagree

Speaking as a hitters dad to a pitchers dad the toughest pitch for a good hitter is the slider--

Hokieone that doesn't mimmic the stress on a properly thrown CB.

TR a slider is a great pitch but that is harder on a young arm than a CB.
A great CB falls off the table infront of the plate.
My son's new coaches wouldn't call his CB but called for his cut FB. My son liked the pitch but said it was more stressful than his CB. He pleaded with him to call his CB which was his out pitch. I actually noticed the annoncers not remarking on his CB and mentioned it to him. He said the coach wouldn't call it even though he asked him to. The strange part is he was calling it at the beginning of the year and he had great success with it

quote:

I would also point out that this pedjudice against CBs exists in college aswell as HS.

I just don't agree with that. I think (most) colleges throw too many curve balls. Scouts have told me the same. Minor league instructors have told college pitchers the same.

And I agree with TR. Slider is the hardest pitch to hit. (How 'bout that TR?...we agree! Better reconsider your thought knowing that! ).

quote:

Posted by Dad04:
Almost no one can be successful in the long run without developing and establishing a fastball. If you can't establish a fastball, then find another position on the field.

Best comment on this thread.

What do you define as an established FB?

bobblehead

I wasnt talking about the toughest pitch to throw but the toughest pitch to hit as you claimed the curveball is---why do you continue to doubletalk in your psts when you get questioned?

I love the curve ball debate...

Two things I've observed (one baseball related, one not.)

- Contrary to popular belief, the US Constitution, in fact, does not contain the text, Separation of Church and State. Many people would lead you to believe it does, when in fact, it does not.

- Also contrary to popular belief, the ASMI study never makes a recommendation that the curve ball is a safe pitch for a youth pitcher.

Both are subjective assumptions...

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
What do you define as an established FB?

Consistent command of a 2 seam or 4 seam pitch that is relatively hard to hit due to velocity, location, movement or a combination of all three.

TR thye thread was about CBs.
I simply stated that the slider is a great pitch but it is harder on a youg arm than a CB properly thrown. No double talk.

quote:

Consistent command of a 2 seam or 4 seam pitch that is relatively hard to hit due to velocity, location, movement or a combination of all three.

Agree.

Let me add a little more from a conversation with one of the area scouts out here.

If a hitter can eliminate a pitch (to worry about) from a given pitcher, advantage hitter. If the pitch the hitter can eliminate is the fastball due to lack of command of it, double advantage to hitter.

Here are some quotes by Dr. Flesig from ASMI on youths and throwing the curveball. They were taken out of a thread on the ASMI web site debating when youths should or should not start throwing a curveball.

quote:

Although ASMI has tried to prove that the curveball is more dangerous than the fastball for youth pitchers, we have not been able to prove this. My personal opinion is that we will never prove the curveball to be more dangerous than the fastball. That being said, I think we all agree that the youngest pitchers should get their fastball going first ("master it", "dominate", whatever term you want to use).

quote:

Correct. That is why it is valuable to have both biomechanical studies and clinical outcome studies. In addition to the biomechanical study linked above, I also suggest reading this retrospective outcome study:
http://ajs.sagepub.com/cgi/content/full/34/6/905
This study compared 16-20 year olds who are healthy pitchers vs. an age-matched group who had surgery. There was a big difference in overuse, but no difference in when they started throwing curveballs. Check it out.

quote:

ASMI's epidemiologic research has shown again and again that the young pitchers who pitch too much in competition are the ones who end up on the surgery table before they are old enough to buy a beer. "Too much" includes pitches per game, pitches per season, months per year, and multiple leagues.

Somewhat surprisingly, biomechanical research has shown the curveball produces similar, or slightly less, load on the elbow than the fastball does - even for youth. For more details, read this scientific article:
Dun S, Loftice J, Fleisig GS, Kingsley D, Andrews JR. A Biomechanical Comparison of Youth Baseball Pitches: Is the Curveball Potentially Harmful? Am J Sports Med 36(4):686-692, 2008.

Here is a post to the thread if you want to read it in full:

http://asmiforum.proboards.com...ay&thread=569&page=1

04 my son had that but found the CB easier on his arm. It was also less hittable. Approx 10% of his pitches were other than an off speed pitch. His CU was a modified Circle change and also had a late break. He would throw it at any count for strikes. At 16 he was pitching against college and pro hitters with great success. He topped out at 83 and was heavily scouted back then. Interesting they all wanted more velo and kept saying more LT. He is now at 87mph and not as good a pitcher as he used to be.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:

quote:

Consistent command of a 2 seam or 4 seam pitch that is relatively hard to hit due to velocity, location, movement or a combination of all three.

Agree.

Let me add a little more from a conversation with one of the area scouts out here.

If a hitter can eliminate a pitch (to worry about) from a given pitcher, advantage hitter. If the pitch the hitter can eliminate is the fastball due to lack of command of it, double advantage to hitter.

Agreed. If you struggle locating a pitch, hitters will sit on the stuff you can locate. Generally the secondary pitches are more difficult to command.

I've seen the guys who throw too many secondary pitches get clobbered when they "don't have" their pitch. Some days you have better stuff than other days. Guys who can consistently paint corners with fastballs tend to not get lit up too bad on off days.

An observation; Pitchers are less consistent in amateur in athletics than in pro ball. I mean pitchers generally improve their consistency after they turn pro. I don't know why. They just do. Velocity increases and command improves. Their secondary pitches get better. This is where talent really shows up to maximize potential.

My son is in a study concerning pitchers arm injury. I have talked to these people and they also find no relationship to injury and the liberal use of CBs. I would also add that many pitchers in these studies may not throw a CB with great mechanics. Even with that there is no relationship to injury throwing CBs. Also the researchers were surprised by the results which indicates they went into thye study with a bias.

The OP specified the age of 13 years and so I shall assume that he is playing on the full sized diamond.

There is no mention about the variety of pitches this player has. But if he can averae 12 pitches per inning he is doing well.


The properly thrown curve ball eith a 12/6 away from the pitcher rotation is no more stressful on the arm than a fast ball.

Since this pitcher is throwing only 12 per inning, I suspect he has been well coached and already has the basic pitches for age. Those are a 2 seam and 4 seam fast ball and a change up. Since he is on the full sized diamond and throwing curves it appears he can throw them at this distance. And since he is only throwing 12 per game in a 7 inning game he would be throwing 1/7 or just under 15% curves.

For those who are being cautious about limiting this pitch I would ask why that is so? I see nothing in the OP to criticize the coach of pitcher.

bballman, They may not be able to prove a curveball is more dangerous, but they couldn't prove O.J. did it either.

I know this though. The curveball will never replace the fastball.

Come on Dad04, you're going to compare the curveball debate with O.J.? Stretching it a little far aren't you?

Said it before, I'll say it again. FB/CU combination should be mastered and worked on and are an extremely deadly combo. I also say that there is nothing wrong with throwing a breaking ball properly and in the right situations.

The only problem you could have is that a pitcher relies too heavily on that pitch and does not develop the FB and CU. He will be in trouble as he gets older.

bballman-- I agree that you do need to mix it up, espically agianst top notch hitters. What I was trying to say is I would take a superior fb pitcher with average junk to a junk pitcher with an average fb -- from what I've seen they are more reliable and walk less batters where junk pitchers can be very dominating when "on", but lots of walks and hits when not. Agian just what I've observed up to this point in my sons teams and ones we've played. (we have played some of the best)
You can't teach velocity on a fb

04 this is where the problem lies. You assume that developing a great CB prcludes developing a good FB. They coexist.
I use my son as an example of a young pitcher who could use his CB as his main pitch and mix in a good FB and a great CU. You can play at a high level without at least 2 great pitches.

46, OK. Junk pitchers can be effective at times, against the right teams. Even (maybe even more so) the very good teams, but once those teams dial in on the speed, the junker could get shelled.

No problem 46, just wanted to make a point about mixing it up.

BBDad I agree with most of your last statement. You can develop velocity and I know several who have had 10mph jumps in college. Jeff Francis as I have pointed out several times was throwing 80mph as a freshman at UBC. He couldn't get a US college to sign him. He is now mid 90s and making 13 M a year. There are several factors and varying rates developing a FB. Maturization is a mojor one.

My son is 14 and is just now developing a curveball but has only thrown a couple in a game. He lives off of the 2seamer (lot of movement) and mixes in a 4 seamer and a CU with movement. He throws well but certainly not overpowering. I think 13 is an ok age to start to develop the curve if he is already doing well with the fb/cu and will use it sparingly. Just gives the other batters something else to worry about.

Make sure he is taught good mechanics. The CB is not a violent pitch but a smooth pitch with you arm staying slightly bent after release. It is more about the wrist and fringers than the arm.

quote:

I think Orel Hershiser had the best advice for young pitchers. He said no curveballs until 16 or older.

Based on what research?

I don't think there is a sure right or wrong about this debate.

When my son was in LL, curves were considered risky, as were high pitch counts. His LL coach played it safe with all his pitchers and allowed no curves and kept low pitch counts (50-60). We didn't win the championships, but I thank him for this. This developed more pitchers and developed the other players defensively as more balls were put in play.

From 13-15, my son was small and a good position player, so his coaches and I erred on the side of caution with his pitching and continued the same no curves, low pitch counts. I also was not confident that he would be taught the right way to throw the curve, and I didn't want to be that helicopter parent that coaches their son from the stands. In HS, I let the coaches teach him a curve. After throwing the curve for two years, his scouting report says that his curve is his best pitch, a strong out pitch with great depth and downward break.

My point is that he didn't need to throw the curve at 12 years old for it to become his best pitch. Maybe there are kids that are getting away with throwing curves at a young age, but it wasn't worth the risk to me. Pitching success at an early age can also lead to high pitch counts and overuse on teams where winning becomes too important.

There will be new studies that may have different results than the studies we are looking at now. Look at the rules for pregnant women. Every child we had, the rules changed due to the latest studies. There have been tons of healthy babies born to smoking or drinking mothers, but we don't encourage pregant women to do these things. We weigh the risk, and make a decision.

The OP has a point, about what is the next level. Maybe the risk of curves at a young age outweighs the long odds of continuing to play beyond high school. For a pitcher only, the decision may be different than a player that has a future as a hitter and position player.

BBHD,
I think one of the issues with throwing too many curves at a young age is that it doesn't allow the change to develop and it doesn't develop the fastball.

Actually a lot of coaches in HS will use a curveballer who can get the ball over. HS hitters generally can't hit the curve well. It starts to change at the college level and players who can't hit the curve wash out at the pro level so the curveballers without a decent fastball tend to go away pretty quickly at the pro level if they ever get the chance to play at that level.

4 seamer,

quote:

Alright,seriously, is 13 too young to throw 10 or so curveballs per game? Who REALLY abused his arm more?

Then Let’s get real serious here! Depends?

How many is the number? The youth injury rates have gone up 5 fold in ten years. This is why when prestigious firms like ASMI gets it wrong with every recommendation because they promote over-use as a culprit instead of the mechanics it shows their real competence but they are learning and they will eventually discover it also.
If your mechanics are injury free you can only suffer from diminished capacity and in human beings that is huge. Then there are only bone length issues.

At biologically aged 10 YO your sons elbow does not even show up on and X-Ray.
At biologically aged 11 YO your sons elbow starts to show up as a dime sized.
At biologically aged 12 YO your son’s elbow becomes a quarters size.
At biologically aged 13 YO your sons elbow finally solidifies where you can see it on an x-ray. Your son’s elbow is basically underdeveloped soft tissue in a vulnerable time frame. Do you know your son’s biological age?!!
This means your sons Elbow is going through a massive growth change right at this time
and if he ballisticly crashes his upper arm with his lower arm from over extension from hard supination he will put his elbow at risk for cartilage deformation that turns into bone chips later, he will put all the growth plates in the elbow area at risk of premature closure and catistrophic failure!, he will deform the bone at the crashing points (capitilum) so that he will lose extension range of motion and worse, he will be more susceptible to avulsions from his muscles have to eccentrically contract to stop the crashing from happening which causes problems in the shoulder, I can go on and on.

Supination (thumb up drive and finish) causes these problems!!
The stress levels for these pitches are
1. Supinated Cutter. Fastball with the most stress.
2. Supinated Slider. You should see the injury ratios go up in colleges and pros when these two pitches are finally taught.
3. Supinated curve while less stressful still ballisticly crashes your sons elbow together!!!!
In the middle 1960's, Dr. Joel Adams of San Bernadino, CA conducted the only credible research into the subject using x-ray analysis on over 600 youth baseball players. He found that ninety-five percent of the pitchers in his study had suffered irreparable damage to their pitching arms. Not to the point that most pitchers could not still pitch, but to the point that premature closure permanently shortened the bones of their throwing arms and perturbed and deformed All of them to some degree and many to totality.
Dr Marshall who was involved with this was the first to make this call out to the baseball world about supination and the traditionally taught curve.

Teach your sons and daughters to pronate (thumb down drive and release) so that their arm hinges and they will then only suffer from slight bone and ligament stress.
If you want a curve there is a two safe way ‘s to throw a curve pronated drive and release!! The pronated thumb slip curve (very very fun!)and the Marshall pronated curve.

quote:

The OP has a point, about what is the next level. Maybe the risk of curves at a young age outweighs the long odds of continuing to play beyond high school.

There was a kid from Saugus, MA in the LLWS a few years ago freaking people out with how many curves he was throwing. The response was baseball was a secondary sport to him. When the LLWS was over he was done playing organized baseball.

quote:

This is why when prestigious firms like ASMI gets it wrong

And of course Dr Mike Marshall is God's gift to the universe and has everything right while Hall of Fame pitchers have been pitching incorrectly for one hundred years. If the word Nym@n is banned from this site, I nominate the word Marshall. It's not Marshall's ideas that annoy me. It's the interjection and ruination of every thread where his culties get involved.

quote:

In the middle 1960's, Dr. Joel Adams of San Bernadino, CA conducted the only credible research into the subject using x-ray analysis on over 600 youth baseball players.

Did we even have x-ray technology in the 1960's. (joking)

It sort of looks like you had to search back 45 years to find a study that supported your argument here. Not saying your right or wrong, but I would think you could find a more recent study.

Yardbird, interesting. You've got me scared to let him throw at all! Seriously. You do. But thanks for the info. It's good food for thought.
Daque, he IS playing 60/90, as well as some 54/80.Surprisingly enough, He hasn't had ANY problem going back and forth in the same week. He does have 2 and 4 seamers and a circle change. I agree that alowing him to throw the cb makes him not care as much about the cu and I hate that. His cu is his BEST pitch when he has cofidence in it. Problem is, he doesn't always get it over. He can throw a 12-6 curve over ANYTIME.And he KNOWS IT. He was taught how to throw it by a minor league pitching coach, who said it was the safe way to throw it. His pitch counts are the lowest I've ever seen because of groundballs and pop flys. He NEVER sees 50 pitches in a game. Thats why I'm so intrigued by this stuff. His ability to throw cb ANYTIME totally baffles opposing hitters. Therefore he can use it sparingly.

quote:

Originally posted by Blprkfrnks:
I don't think there is a sure right or wrong about this debate.

When my son was in LL, curves were considered risky, as were high pitch counts. His LL coach played it safe with all his pitchers and allowed no curves and kept low pitch counts (50-60). We didn't win the championships, but I thank him for this. This developed more pitchers and developed the other players defensively as more balls were put in play.

From 13-15, my son was small and a good position player, so his coaches and I erred on the side of caution with his pitching and continued the same no curves, low pitch counts. I also was not confident that he would be taught the right way to throw the curve, and I didn't want to be that helicopter parent that coaches their son from the stands. In HS, I let the coaches teach him a curve. After throwing the curve for two years, his scouting report says that his curve is his best pitch, a strong out pitch with great depth and downward break.

My point is that he didn't need to throw the curve at 12 years old for it to become his best pitch. Maybe there are kids that are getting away with throwing curves at a young age, but it wasn't worth the risk to me. Pitching success at an early age can also lead to high pitch counts and overuse on teams where winning becomes too important.

There will be new studies that may have different results than the studies we are looking at now. Look at the rules for pregnant women. Every child we had, the rules changed due to the latest studies. There have been tons of healthy babies born to smoking or drinking mothers, but we don't encourage pregant women to do these things. We weigh the risk, and make a decision.

The OP has a point, about what is the next level. Maybe the risk of curves at a young age outweighs the long odds of continuing to play beyond high school. For a pitcher only, the decision may be different than a player that has a future as a hitter and position player.

Outstanding post. You seem more concerned with your son's development than his stats and that is the way it ought to be imho.

RJM - Hershiser seems like a reputable source to me and his logic made sense to me. He said he developed that notion from Walter Alston who also seems like a reputable source to me. hokione's logic makes sense to me as well.

Look, people are entitlted to their opinions. If you think young players ought to be throwing curves then so be it - I could care less what your research tells you. I would rather be safe than sorry. As some of the posts have pointed out, you may be robbing them of the chance to properly develop their fastballs. The fastball will always be the most important pitch in baseball imho. Why do you think the guys who get drafted the highest each year have the best fastballs?

quote:

In the middle 1960's, Dr. Joel Adams of San Bernadino, CA conducted the only credible research into the subject using x-ray analysis on over 600 youth baseball players. He found that ninety-five percent of the pitchers in his study had suffered irreparable damage to their pitching arms.

In 1782 a study conducted by a group of Native American shamen and mages found that using juniper plants ground into a juicy pile it could be used to cure ingrown toenails. Also, if applied to the elbow then it can help the recovery time of throwing spears.

Another study conducted in 1238 by a group of wizards found that hog's tooth ground into a powder and mixed with wolfsbane would create a cream that could cure halitosis - or as they called it back then "devil's breath" because anything that smelled that bad had to come from the devil.

There are some really great scientific studies from way back when. I really like the one where leeches could suck the evil out of a person. That alone probably revolutionized the world of medicine more than anything.

Yardbird I actually agree with a couple things you posted.
I don't agree with the CB bone crahing if you keep you elbow at shoulder level and do not straighten your arm out at finish.
I don't think you can throw a ball without some stress on ligaments. That is why you work so hard on strengthening them.

24 learned to throw a cb at age 12, but did not use it in games until he moved to the 90 foot diamond. Before that he got by with a 2 seam and 4 seam FB.

Now as a varsity HS picher, the CB is his out pitch. He locates it well and can throw it at any count. But he throws it less than 30% of the time.

The only arm issues he has had, in my humble opinion, occured from overuse, not from the properly thrown CB.

Agree with 4 seamer, the ability to throw the CB at any point is most effective, but you don't have to throw it all the time.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Bobblehead

I respectfully disagree

Speaking as a hitters dad to a pitchers dad the toughest pitch for a good hitter is the slider--

i just wanted to say i disagree unless the guy throws 100 mph.
otherwise you have time to see the "dot" that forms on a conventional slider and is absolutely obvious and the hitter

quote:

Hershiser seems like a reputable source to me and his logic made sense to me. He said he developed that notion from Walter Alston who also seems like a reputable source to me.

What makes Orel Hershiser and Walter Alston experts on youth baseball? What evidence did they provide to validate their opinions on youth baseball? Otherwise it's no more of an opinion than anyone elses. We could even call it a wild guess. And I'll bet there are many youth coaches who have done more homework on youth pitching than Hershiser and Alston.

I'm not saying I know more about pitching than Hershiser and Alston. But I'll bet I've done a lot more research and talked or exchanged emails with experts on youth sports than Hershiser and Alston. I'll take legitmate advice from respected members of this board before taking it from them.

RJM,

Are you still reading my posts? I warned you before that you have the right to bypass them! Breath.

quote:

“If the word Nym@n is banned from this site”

Is this true? How did you get that done? Here let me see, *****?

quote:

“I nominate the word Marshall”

Then I will use Dr.MM

quote:

“It's not Marshall's ideas that annoy me.”

Do vexed people recognize their vexism?

quote:

“It's the interjection and ruination of every thread”

I think that’s only for you and a few others?

quote:

“where his culties get involved.”

We are cool aid drinkers not Cultists and we use sugar not strychnine.

Breath!

Blprkfrnks,

quote:

“It sort of looks like you had to search back 45 years to find a study that supported your argument here.”

All kinesiological finding since support the merits of the research and have been used in the development in the football throw, racket drive (tennis and badminton), javelin and other overhead projection which they all incorporate pronation into their pedagogy! Baseball is the only traditional sport to not take advantage of the information fully.

quote:

“Not saying your right or wrong, but I would think you could find a more recent study.”

I would love to see the baseball community (MLB and Colleges) pay for an actual combined effort to replicate the original discovery and corrective recommendations. Unfortunately the Org’s that people look up to refuse to recognize the research because they have been selling their injurious product for so long they have become intransigent.

I don't agree that the cb is bad on the arm. I believe mostly it is a tradition passed from one generation to the next on the baseball field. The issue I have is with throwing too many hard fastballs on improperly conditioned arms- that is what damages arms in my opinion. It just so happens that kids with really hard fastballs also have really good curves (usually) and in my opinion the cb gets balmed for the damage that the fastball has done on the weakened arm.

Most kids who learn to throw the cb do it naturally on their own and it usually starts out as more of a frisbee type of slow pitch or changeup for the first year or two with som tumble or slight break effect. A kid throwing 45-55 mph curveballs at age 12 is not going to be putting their arm in any real stress- it's just not thrown hard enough! And when they finally do get to have a feel for it by the time they are 13-14 it is a true breaking ball that in my opinion can be thrown fairly often in games with no ill effects. its the fastball count they must watch! Fastballs are generally thrown at a near max or max effort. This means that they are pushing the very limits of what their bone and muscles structures can handle at early ages.

Also, I have recorded a lot of kids pitching over the past few years and I have yet to find but just a few 11-14 year old kids throwing their cb with a supination release. Almost every kid I watch pronates either during or immediately following release. This to me tells me that they are getting the ball more out in front at release and getting their hand flicking down like a fastball at release.

Its kind of interesting as to how many times in a youth game where after 3-4 innings of pitching fastaballs, the youth pitcher will say "my arm is getting sore" and it raises no alarms whatsoever and yet- if that kid even threw just one cb, everyone is saying how it was because of the cb that his arm hurts and that the coach should know better.

Let's put place the buck where it belongs! Sore arms and weakened muscles are almost entirely from throwing too many fastballs on an improperly conditioned arm.

Improper throwing mechanics.
Trying to throw too much without throwing enough.
Overuse especially at a young age.

The players that have good throwing mechanics , throw on a regular basis and are not overused hardly ever complain of a sore arm. The rest constantly do.

4 seamer,

quote:

“Yardbird, interesting. You've got me scared to let him throw at all!”

Just the supinated ones, be scared from those.

He can learn throw all the pitch movements to the glove side and to the ball arm side of home plate by pronating your drive and release even with a traditional leg lift!

quote:

“It's good food for thought.”

That’s a start? I was hoping for your child you would now test it?

quote:

“a circle change.”

This pitch is powerfully pronated usually? Very good!

quote:

“He can throw a 12-6 curve over ANYTIME.And he KNOWS IT.”

This is good; it gives him the best chance of pronating voluntarily!
You need to High-speed video him and see if he is supinating the drive and finish?
If he is supinating? His hand will and forearm will travel to its elastic point and the after release it will involuntarily pronate back the other way, NOT good enough!!!

quote:

“ He was taught how to throw it by a minor league pitching coach, who said it was the safe way to throw it. “

Did he show you High-speed video to back up his claim? Did he tell you about the difference between the two movements?

Clevelanddad,

quote:

“Hershiser seems like a reputable source to me and his logic made sense to me.”

Unfortunately Orals son Has just had UCL reconstructive surgery playing at USC.
Tom House does not recognize the research either apparently?

quote:

“Walter Alston who also seems like a reputable source.”

Walter Alston is one of the managers whom gave the ball to Marshall and told Lasorda to stay out of his way, what irony, I’ll bet Marshall reported his findings to Walt in his many conversations with him?

Coach 2709,

quote:

“In 1782 a study conducted by a group of Native American shamen “

35,000 years ago the aboriginals did a study on the Melaleuca Alterifolia tree and found it healed all their infections so well that this tea tree oil was mandatory carry by the Austrailian soldiers in WWII and to this day the discovery is still used!

quote:

“There are some really great scientific studies from way back when. I really like the one where leeches could suck the evil out of a person.”

That’s Ironic Leaches are used today in modern medicine for over 20 different procedures and the list keeps growing as the research continues. Many pharmasutical firms are trying to copy what the leaches produce.

When life hands you Kool- make Kool aid

Bobbleheaddoll,

quote:

”I don't agree with the CB bone crashing if you keep you elbow at shoulder level and do not straighten your arm out at finish.”

Keeping your elbow at shoulder level is caused by humeral and forearm fly-out (centripetal imperative) guaranteeing this ballistic hyperextension!!

quote:

“I don't think you can throw a ball without some stress on ligaments.”

This is why I said, “Teach your sons and daughters to pronate (thumb down drive and release) so that their arm hinges and they will then only suffer from slight bone and ligament stress.”

24&34dad,

quote:

“The only arm issues he has had, in my humble opinion, occured from overuse, not from the properly thrown CB.”

This is the classic mistake everybody is missing ”over use” does not exist when your mechanics are non-injurious, this makes the problem mechanical not use.
Have you high speed videoed his curve? And do you understand what constitutes a safe curve?

Yardbird;

When 24 was 14 he was over pitched and had some pain. It was at a time where he was simply used too much. If you look at the video of him at that time and now 4 years later his mechanics are about the same and you can't tell the difference in the way he throws his curve ball between now and then.

So we can agree to disagree on what causes this. What I believe and what I share with this forum is that 24 had no issues from a properly thrown curve ball at any point since age 12.

My advice is that overuse is the main concern and not the choice of pitch.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
my son threw 90% CBs. He is 23 and no arm problems ever. He perfected a couple CBs at 10-11yo and days they are less stresful than a FB.
If you get an Ump like Therefump you might want to rethink the CBs with him and guys like him.

Perhaps throwing 90% CB's as a youth pitcher made him a star, and got a college scholarship, but wondering if not throwing FB more than CB's has hurt his college game? How has 90% CB helped him, even learning the safe way?

FWIW, right now at the pro level I would say 80% son is required to throw FB, most likey due to his velocity. Don't misunderstand, he has good breaking stuff, and probably have more success using more of it, but JMoff is correct, that is what they do at the pro level. Sure he gets hit alot, and this year more than ever. His FB and his velocity got him where he is, so if you think that throwing 90% CB's is a good thing fir development of young pitchers, you are definetly WRONG.

Putting aside risk arguments, FB is the pitch to concentrate on, IMO, until you reach HS. A youth pitcher should throw more percentages of his pitches the FB, period.

There is nothing wrong with being a soft tosser, one can have success, but the more you use breaking balls in place of the FB, the less practice you are giving your FB. Put two pitchers together, one a very successful soft tosser using breaking pitches more often to keep them off balance, the FB pitcher who may not always be in control. The latter gets more opportunities. This is not to diss any very good pitcher who has success, but reality is, teh FB is where it's at. Anyone see Porcello pitch? Great FB with great velocity, he will learn how to use his breaking stuff effectively, not the other way around. The only way you develop that, is throwing it more often (in game situations) when younger, you can work on the other stuff once you can dominate with your FB and you reach, what some feel, a safe age to throw more breaking balls. Learn the CU. The other stuff should only be to compliment and aid in a pitchers success.

Let's not bring up the guys of yesterday and their success, or the very far and few between Moyers, who by the way uses his experience to win MLB games. If he was a young pitcher starting out, he wouldn't be as successful because most don't get beyond a certain level. The game is totally different these days, at the HS level, the college level and the pro level.

Much rather see my player struggle while developing his FB and a good CU and velocity while young and have greater success later on.

That's the whole idea in developing a good pitcher.

JMO.

quote:

Improper throwing mechanics.
Trying to throw too much without throwing enough.
Overuse especially at a young age.

The players that have good throwing mechanics , throw on a regular basis and are not overused hardly ever complain of a sore arm. The rest constantly do.

What can I say..Amen and Amen.

If we can narrow the focus to the parameters of this portion of the board, we can also narrow the pitches. We are talking about the pre HS set. There are varying field dimensions to take into account. If we further narrow the age group to 13 and over but pre HS, it will will be prety safe to assume we are on the full size diamond. Pony ball and some tournaments excepted.

So with that in mind we are still talking about kids with open growth centers who are pitching from 60'6".

As was mentioned, pitches that call for supination of the forearm (palm up), which includes the slider and the slurve or little league curve, should not be utilized in this age group.

The slurve should not be used since it has injury potential and because it is a pitch that will be bombed on the full sized field. I have seen deformed elbows with limitation of motion by kids who fell in love with this pitch on the small diamond.

The slider is very hard on the medial side of the elbow but is an acceptable pitch once the elbow growth plates are closed. Most recommendations I have seen advise waiting until age 18 before utilizing the slider.

The curve is not an effective pitch on the small diamond for two reasons. 1. There is not enough distance for it to drop. 2. The kids are not strong enough to get the rotational velocity necessary to make it drop. So what happens is the kids start mixing in some lateral rotation and generate the slurve which is effective.

Also noted above is the reality that this is a fun pitch to watch as batters screw themselves into the ground. The ball drops and breaks laterally. The rotation is about 45 degrees.

Strictly from a coaching perspective, breaking pitches that are rotationally induced are not effective on smaller diamonds. Encourage younger pitchers (before the full sized diamond) to use grip induced moving pitches. Specifically any one of a variety of change ups. But by age 13 they can begin developing the true curve once they can throw it 60'6" with correct rotation and technique. Amen.

quote:

Originally posted by Daque:
Encourage younger pitchers (before the full sized diamond) to use grip induced moving pitches. Specifically any one of a variety of change ups. But by age 13 they can begin developing the true curve once they can throw it 60'6" with correct rotation and technique. Amen.

TPM my son's college game was very good intil his JR year. It isn't lack of velo that hurt him last year and he has had some grest games this year against top teams. He is hitting 86-87 this year and for a LHP that is good velo. The scouts are talking to him but he isn't interested. He isn't driven to play pro ball. As far as we are concerned we have gotten more out of this experience than expected. We are dissapointed in the lack of consistency in the coaching. 4 new P coaches in 4 years The 1st one and last one were good but the 2 in the middle weren't. Hopefully the new guy will stick it out.
This year was strange. The new coaches are a vast improvement over the last 3 years but their focus was on developing their freshmen and sophs for next year. They were up front about it but it is a strange twist to my son's final year.

quote:

Trying to throw too much without throwing enough.

Change that to trying to pitch too much and I will agree.

If there was some maagic way to go back to the number of games played in the 1970's nobody would have to care about the kind of pitches you threw nor about how many you threw. And you wouldn't have arm pain either.

bobble,

Congrats to your son on his accomplishments.

Daque,

You sure seem to know your stuff.

Just curious... How bad is the Swine Flu in Chapala?

PG thanks. He is a happy youngman.

Davidson is with the Marlins now.

I speak as a college pitcher's Dad. Like Hershiser said, don't throw curveballs until you are at least 16 if you want to pitch later, and no sliders either. Work on the change and locating the fastball. It's not an "if" issue, but a "when" issue.

Bobble,

Yea, that's great about Davidson. Is Joey Votto headed to the Hall of Fame or what... Hee Haw! Seriously, will he ever stop hitting?

24&34Dad,

I hear ya, I threw my curve 12/6 with emphasis since I was 8 and never hurt my elbow either.
I did receive loss of extension and flexion range of motion that I still possess. No injury, yet I am deformed?
Have you checked 24’s Elbow ranges ever or recently?

I talked to Davidson and he is concerned about his fiture even though he got picked up.

Joey is doing great.

Let me summarize:

1.) There is no easy answer to this question
2.) Every kid is different
3.) Coaches need to know their players, how much they can throw before mechanics breaking down, how many of each type of pitch they can throw before they break down, etc.
4.) Key, having the wisdom to get them out before they hurt themselves when they start to break down.

My advice:
Find a coach who knows what he's doing. To re-iterate an earlier post; my son, who many would consider a protegee' wasn't allowed to throw the CB until he was 14 because he couldn't demonstarte enough consistancy. Same pitching coach routinely teaches CB to 10U players. He is a pitching coach for many in my side of Phoenix.

More advice that people won't like:
Find a former pro who knows about pitching. Hire him as your kid's club ball pitching coach (assuming he has no kids on the team). Pay him ~$500 /mo to teach during bull pens and coach during tournaments. Give him autonomous authority to make pitching decisions (changes, pitch calling, pick-offs, etc).

He won't be tied to winning / losing only developing the kids. If you find the right guy, you'll go home losing sometimes, but your kid will never be hurt. My son played on such a team the last year and a half. Tyrone Tycise was my son's pitching coach and he was amazing. I fully expect he'll be hired into pro ball sometime soon.

The worst part is that I don't think we paid him nearly as much as I suggest here...

I believe paying for a pitching coach before hitting the big field is a waste of money. If a kid can't pitch mechanically sound enough on the small field, don't pitch him often. No one becomes a high school pitching prospect from 46 or 50 feet.

What in the world is a HS pitching "prospect?"

My son is 14 years old, lefty, and rarely does he throw a curve ball. He really doesn't need to at this time, his 2 seamer moves on its own along with a good located 4 seamer and a good change up and mixing speeds and good movement... so far it seems to be working for him on the big field better than what it did throwing from 54 feet. I think probably good mechanics, using a good fluid motion in a pitcher's delivery along with not overusing the arm and plenty of rest in between pitching starts is probably the best way to go. However, one thing that really bothers me this year watching high school ball, is how some of the coaches absolutely overwork their pitchers. T-bone played against a kid that threw 96 pitches in a game against his team and 75% of the pitches thrown were curve balls. Totally ridiculous for a 14 year old. I swear one of that kid's arms was 5" longer than the other one by the time they took him out of that game. At that time, T-bone's team was winning 8-0. To me that is absolutely stupid of those coaches to put a kid through that.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
What in the world is a HS pitching "prospect?"

My point is the parents of preteen pitchers don't need to spend money for their kids to learn how to pitch on mini fields. Once in his teens, if the kid is still interested in pitching, then training isn't a bad idea. I believe any kid whose parents are forking over big bucks for training aspires to play high school ball. I've never heard a kid or parent say the goal is to be the best 12U player ever. The parents pumping over the big bucks have big dreams and they reach past high school.

I recently watched a college game with a retired college coach. He said when he dropped off his grandson at a baseball facility he stayed and watched for a while. He was shocked how much money is being thrown away at those places on little kids and kids without visible talent.

quote:

T-bone played against a kid that threw 96 pitches in a game against his team and 75% of the pitches thrown were curve balls.

I'll bet it wasn't 75% curves. It probably was a majority of curves. I've never seen a parent underestimate numbers and percentages. I often see them overestimated. It wouldn't bother me if my son threw a majority of curves in any one game. I wouldn't want to see it all season.

Curve balls aren't the culprit to bad arms. Overuse is. When I was young I threw hundreds of pitches over a weekend and threw the curve wrong and didn't have a bad arm. I threw all the time. Yeah, sometimes my arm got sore but it was probably after throwing hundreds of pitches, then shag balls in the outfield and make ridiculously long throws, then I'd have to put the ball down for a couple of days.

Also, not shutting it down for 2-3 months minimum and playing different sports in-season are having kids throw and pitch 12-months out of the year. That's why kids are getting hurt today. Add poor mechanics to the never ending baseball season.

The only bad thing when a kid falls in love with the CB is he forgets about the FB and it never developed right. Varsity hitters will light up a pitcher with an avarage fast ball

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
What in the world is a HS pitching "prospect?"

My point is the parents of preteen pitchers don't need to spend money for their kids to learn how to pitch on mini fields. Once in his teens, if the kid is still interested in pitching, then training isn't a bad idea. I believe any kid whose parents are forking over big bucks for training aspires to play high school ball. I've never heard a kid or parent say the goal is to be the best 12U player ever.

What about a parent getting lessons for a kid on the small field to learn mechanics that promote arm health(especially if the kid throws hard) if the parents have no experience in that area?

quote:

I'll bet it wasn't 75% curves. It probably was a majority of curves. I've never seen a parent underestimate numbers and percentages. I often see them overestimated. It wouldn't bother me if my son threw a majority of curves in any one game. I wouldn't want to see it all season.

* Everyone prefers to win. Do you have the passion and work ethic to do what it takes to win? *

RJM, I was an assistant coach when this kid was playing with my son's summer league this past summer. I'm probably exagerating some about the curveball ratio, but NOT much. He only threw 2 pitches, curveballs and fastballs. 2 curve balls for every fastball thrown last summer. There wasn't a time when that kid pitched for us that he didn't complain about his arm hurting. We would get him out of there and his Dad would yell at us for trying to protect his arm.Let him pitch a 100 pitches a game the Dad would say. The problem with this kid was he had bad mechanics and you could just see the twisting taking place on his elbow because he never learned how to throw a curveball the proper way. Even after we would try to correct his pitching methods.

Let me clarify that we didn't hire the pitching coach until 14U, on the big field (60'6").

Our club ball top 5 are all pitching varsity baseball at various levels, depending on the school they attend. Some are pitching 5A-1, and we have a stud pitching at 4A-I. we call him 'special' since he doesn't face anything but those poor 4A hitters.

Three of our top 5 have ERA's under 2.00 after 30+ innings of varsity baseball.

I don't think our paid coach has done us a disservice.

Tfox,

quote:

“What about a parent getting lessons for a kid on the small field to learn mechanics that promote arm health if the parents have no experience in that area?”

Physiologically human being learn motor skills better when they have no or less pre-trained Proprioceptive awareness (Neural firing order or muscle memory) to hinder changing mechanics. This means the earlier you get to them the better. The most beneficial lessons I give are to 4,5,6 and 7 year olds because it sets them early correctly rather than trying to retrain a mechanic later plus if the father or mother are there they learn the training regimen so that they can then take over most of the training pretty quickly them selves.

quote:

“(especially if the kid throws hard)”

Why would this matter if the kid sees himself as a pitcher, wants to pursue his dreams and wants to have some fun! Let all of them pitch if they want to so it spreads the load until High school. Then it’s the top 6 guys at the lower levels then the top 4 guys at the upper levels.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I talked to Davidson and he is concerned about his future even though he got picked up.

Joey is doing great.

quote:

My point is the parents of preteen pitchers don't need to spend money for their kids to learn how to pitch on mini fields.

RJM, I think you get lessons early so that the pitchers mechanics are sound from an early age. Believe it or not, I agree with Yard on this one. Once certain mechanics are ingrained it is much harder to get them to change them.

If you start early, they will do it correctly from the beginning. My son started taking lessons from when he was around 10. He is currently a 15 yr. old freshman and a starting pitcher for the varsity team. I don't think starting his pitching lessons at an early age hurt him too much.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
Tfox,

quote:

“What about a parent getting lessons for a kid on the small field to learn mechanics that promote arm health if the parents have no experience in that area?”

Physiologically human being learn motor skills better when they have no or less pre-trained Proprioceptive awareness (Neural firing order or muscle memory) to hinder changing mechanics. This means the earlier you get to them the better. The most beneficial lessons I give are to 4,5,6 and 7 year olds because it sets them early correctly rather than trying to retrain a mechanic later plus if the father or mother are there they learn the training regimen so that they can then take over most of the training pretty quickly them selves.

quote:

“(especially if the kid throws hard)”

Why would this matter if the kid sees himself as a pitcher, wants to pursue his dreams and wants to have some fun! Let all of them pitch if they want to so it spreads the load until High school. Then it’s the top 6 guys at the lower levels then the top 4 guys at the upper levels.

I think the point about "especially if the kid throws hard" has to do with several factors..

At a young age especially, if a kid naturally throws the ball hard enough to be dominant, most 'coaches' are going to pitch him...ALOT if he can get outs. Even if the kids mechanics are a trainwreck waiting to happen.

Personally I that early 'training' isn't a bad idea...but I think it's hard for alot of people here to realize that some parents don't know anything about baseball. So if Dad and Mom don't know anything about throwing, much less pitching, then I don't see anything wrong with them LEARNING how to teach their young kid.

Overuse is still the #1 killer of young arms. REGARDLESS of what pitch, or how it's being thrown.

Kids don't JUST THROW enough anymore...between practice, pitching lessons, games, pitching in games etc etc..

Pitching IS NOT the same as throwing.

A correctly thrown curveball isn't harmful. A kid or coach who falls in love with a curve ball may end up effecting the kid developing his FB and other pitches, but unless he's throwing 150 of 'em all the time (which would be just as bad if it was that many Fastballs or CU's being thrown) it's not more harmful than any other pitch.


Any I still think alot of people get ahead of themselves.

"I don't want my 13 year old to throw curves. I want him to save his arm, and develop his FB."

Save his arm for what? The percentages are that most kids won't be playing baseball after High School...so why not let the kids enjoy it.

Most parents / coaches will recognize when a kid has talent / potential to go further by 10th grade or so (in MOST cases)...but I see kids all the time who attended lessons every week, couldn't do this, couldn't do that, all for their "baseball" career...

Most never made HS teams. A few just refused to do it anymore.

The biggest problem with youth baseball?

ADULTS............Coaches and parents alike. Let 'em play.

quote:

Originally posted by tfox:
What about a parent getting lessons for a kid on the small field to learn mechanics that promote arm health(especially if the kid throws hard) if the parents have no experience in that area?

tfox - You don't need to ask that question...of course its fine. Developing good mechanics, just for throwing a ball properly, is a good thing and doesn't have to be related to HS ball at all.

I'm sure some parents throw money away, but hey, its their money and I doubt its taking food off their table. Why would anyone care about that?

And for many kids, the "dream" is just to pitch on their LL team...whats wrong with that?

To each his own, but I sure am glad I never looked so far down the road when my kids were 8/9, then 11/12 and so on. HS ball wasn't on our radar screen until they were about 13 or maybe even 14. I think we could have had a lot of unneccesary anxiety if we'd have looked so far ahead.

We just always looked at the season coming up and boy did we have a lot of fun!

Agreed, but I have always had the philosophy there is that age that a teenager goes through in which he doesn't really want to learn the proper mechanics in pitching or hitting because " he already knows it all" good or bad. So,you better teach the proper mechanics when they are listening even if that is at a younger age so the good habits can become "muscle memory". It is harder to teach old dogs new tricks especially when they are not as responsive to constructive criticism.

quote:

I don't want my 13 year old to throw curves. I want him to save his arm, and develop his FB."

Save his arm for what? The percentages are that most kids won't be playing baseball after High School...so why not let the kids enjoy it.

Very true, most kids don't play past HS ball. But as a parent, I think it is still your job to protect the health and well being of your child if that means keeping him from throwing a curve ball too soon and keeping him from the operating room for TJ surgery before he makes it out of High School.I believe there is a proper season for everything.

quote:

His FB and his velocity got him where he is, so if you think that throwing 90% CB's is a good thing fir development of young pitchers, you are definetly WRONG

quote:

His FB and his velocity got him where he is, so if you think that throwing 90% CB's is a good thing fir development of young pitchers, you are definetly WRONG.

TPM any idiot knows that a FB is the most important pitch. You as usual attack with personal junk. You also show your lack of reading my posts and love to get on your soapbox.

A pitcher pitches a very small % of his total throws. Maybe 5-10%. The rest of the time he developes his arm. My son's teams were fanatics about developing his arm. He probably threw more LT etc than your son. He just stalled at aout 82-83 for several yaers. As you know he threw all year round. No one worked harder than he did and no he didn't throw CBs to be a STAR as you put it.

I would love to have you point out where I said not to develope your FB as an important pitch. I can show you where I said you need a FB mixed with a CU and CBs.
I wonder what % a pitcher actually pitches compared to other throwing like Bull Pen and LT. Maybe 5-10%. The rest of the time is spent on developing all your pitches. The pitching days are when you throw what you have developed. That includes all types of pitches especially the FB. If your dream is to play pro ball above MiLB you better have at least 2-3 good ones.
This topic was about CBs and youth pitchers. I hope you get that before you spout off.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I would love to have you point out where I said not to develope your FB as an important pitch.

BHD - this is what you said:

quote:

my son threw 90% CBs

By inference, it can be derived that you don't think the fastball is important to develop.

Geez I guess to a Lawyer you could argue that.

I expected that from you. Just waiting for the rest of your group.

quote:

Just waiting for the rest of your group.

Who is his "group?" Maybe I wanna join? Is it on Facebook? Can you follow on Twitter? So much tech stuff these days!

Personally, there are aspects to this thread that are causing me to scratch my head.
Fundamentally, I disagree with the idea of throwing CB's as a 10-12 year old.
I really disagree with it as a concept that the kid isn't likely to play beyond high school so get the most out of that arm at the earliest date. I would like to understand the risk assessment of those types of comments.
But, to me the real issue, beyond the risk of injury, is why?
Of course a kid throwing CB's as a 10-12 year old will get hitters out.
By the time they are 13-15, unless they can command that CB(few can from 60'6") and combine it with another pitch they command, like a FB, they will get less hitters out.
By the time they are 15-17, there has to be even better command of a CB, better command of a FB, or you will have even less success against hitters.
By the time you get to college, pitchers will not succeed by doing what they did as 10-12 year olds.
Even if they can command the CB, when college hitters know that is your out pitch, it becomes the pitch they attack. They see it so many times, they enjoy the AB's. The way pitchers get outs with college hitters is by getting them into pitchers counts and being able to throw a pitch they have not seen in that AB. If it is a hitters count, they need to be able to throw pitchers the hitters do not expect, in places they are not looking.
It isn't little league any longer.
If you want evidence of this, look at Barry Zito. When he was 87-89, his curve ball was considered the best in baseball. When his velocity dropped to 82-83, he couldn't pitch well enough with his curve ball to have success and had 2 pretty miserable years. This year he is back to 87-89 and his CB is back to one of the best in baseball.
Bottom line: success as a 10-12 year old throwing CB's has nothing to do with baseball, even if we leave out the risk of injury. I think we need to be honest here: having your son throw CB's as a 10-12 year old is because you want him to be successful and to win.
Your son will get hitters out by doing that.
Why is that important at ages 10-12? Are you telling them they cannot get hitters out with the FB at the same age, or that you don't think they can??? How do you know they wouldn't have the same success with FB/change up??
Add in the risk of injury and I question why even do this.
Add further the issue of learning how to pitch, and it makes even less sense.
Add the comments that seem to say who cares about the injury risk, they won't be playing beyond high school and, for me at least, there are some pretty puzzling approaches to this issue.

The study that has been reported, it needs to be noted that, the study had a very small sample and was not mathmatacly a sound study.
The reference to no evidence was found, is misleading since the sample size and the injuries tracked and the types of pitches thrown vary.
Since the author of the study suggest, as do many others people, some who are doctors and some who are not, That youth pitchers wait, until boys start developing a curve ball. The age they suggest to wait until the development of a CB varies.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JMoff:
Tyrone Tycise was my son's pitching coach and he was amazing. I fully expect he'll be hired into pro ball sometime soon.[QUOTE]

JMoff I sent you a pm. Thanks.

Proper throwing mechanics
Proper hitting mechanics


Young kids starting out in the game need to learn two things from the start and start with a solid foundation to build upon. Proper throwing and proper hitting mechanics. Starting to try to get engrained flawed mechanics out of a 14 year old in time for him to be a productive HS player is a daunting task.

Infield I know 20 pitchers that pitch in college that threw a large % of CBs and are now in or just graduated from college.
Again if you don't work on a few pitches you will struggle at higher levels.
RJ Swindle is a ML pitcher who has phenominal stats, an 80 mph FB and amazing CBs. Note that is plral CBs. Yes he has struggled to stay in the majors because he dosen't have a plus FB but that may be all the gas he has.
A 90+ FB will get you more opportunities but the % of success even with that is very small. A friend who had a great FB just got released after 2 years in the minors. He was drafted on his FB even though he stuggled in local elite ball here. Another guy I know who played 2 years in the states and came back to a local college was hitting 94-95. I was with his mom when he was signed at was noticed at a MLB camp. He had a terrible record here.
Another guy I know was in the mid 90s and played D1 over in Buffalo. He had a 2-9 record and was signed. He actually played with RZ1s son in Staten Island. Not sure where he is now.
Velocity is big if you want to get drafted.
Not sure why you guys keep saying things like use your arm up. If you want to use up an arm , throw too many FBs. All my son's coaches wanted the players to succeed. It was good for their business. I know our coaches were knowledgeable coaches and knew the facts about CBs, over pitching etc.

BHD,
You are the one talking 90 plus, not me.
We both know that isn't needed. I don't know why you bring that in when it isn't part of the discussion about cb's vs learning to pitch and getting guys out.
Even though I disagree, I am leaving out the injury risk issue.
My post was about learning and knowing how to pitch. How to command pitches.
The toughest pitcher my son ever saw, including Randy Johnson, was Eric Hurley. It wasn't his 91-92mph or his cb. It was his 78-80mph change that came out of his hand and delivery looking exactly like his FB.
Jamie Moyer has said it is his ability to change speeds by greater than 10mph and command pitches that makes him successful. If his change isn't more than 10mph slower than his FB, he gets hit. When it is, he doesn't.
Plenty of guys succeed in college and beyond who are 87-89. They do it with a 4 seam, a 2 seam, both of which they can command in any count, a change up and a curveball, all of which they can command in any count.
I used Zito as an example. He is a two pitch guy now trying to develop a change up.
At 83, he cannot get guys out.
At 87-89, as I said before, his curveball becomes weapon when he can command it and hitters cannot look for it.
As I said before, any 10-12 year old gets hitters out with a CB. So what????? If you throw 90% cb's as a 12 year old, you get more hitters out.
You throw 90% cb's to college and Milb hitters, and you don't get many outs. Hitters like it though!!
Wouldn't we both agree that the measure of a successful pitcher/hitter/player is on a regulation field against top competition like you see from ages 16 and up???
What is important in baseball about throwing cb's as a 12 year old. What does it prove???

I think we're getting into two different arguments here. One is whether or not a curveball is bad for your arm as a pre-teen pitcher. The other is what types of pitches are effective against college and pro hitters.

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with throwing a curveball at the younger ages as long as you are doing it right and as long as you don't do it at the expense of working on your fastball and change up.

As long as you do the above, you won't have a problem with the second point in question.

My son is just in HS, but he threw the CB at a younger age. He also worked on and mastered his fastball and changeup. As an example, he pitched a varsity game against the #3 team in the state. Lost 1-0, but threw a complete game, 6 innings, 71 pitches and threw 3 curves. Everything else was FB/CU. Threw another complete game, 7 innings, 67 pitches and threw maybe 5 or 6 curves. Just because he threw the curve at a preteen age, does not mean that he didn't work on his other pitches.

I think we should try to keep the issues separate. Are curve balls bad for the younger kids? (My opinion - no) Should the curve be used at the expense of developing the FB and CU? (absolutely not)

PG Staff: Thanks for the compliment. As to the swine flu, I have not heard of any cases. The schools have been closed since Easter vacation. Another factor is the large population of retirees and that age group seems to be sporting immunity. So I guess the press will have to resumee stirring the bucket about drug violence which is also absent here. Guadalajara, which is about 25 miles to the north of us has had a little of both but not the street shooting like up north. In any event, there are more killings in the US than in Mexico and that is one of the reasons I am here. If I were there I would be more concerned about nuclear winter than I would be with global warmig. Cheers.

quote:

Are curve balls bad for the younger kids? (My opinion - no)

Is the answer the same if the 10-14 year old is in the middle of a growth phase where their joints and growth plates are changing?

http://www.choa.org/default.aspx?id=1461

BTW, I don't think the "issues" are separate. If they were, I don't see the need to post about what happened in your son's HS game. It seems to me the cb at a younger age question/risk is being offered to support the idea it helps develop pitchers to be successful over time into HS and beyond.

They are separate. Like I said, one issue is whether or not the CB is injurious. One is really whether or not you should do it because the main focus should be the FB and CU.

My point with my son was that he threw the CB early AND, he did not do it at the expense of his FB and CU. I gave evidence that he is not dependent on his CB and he is obviously proficient with his FB and CU despite having used the CB at an earlier age.

The article you referenced talked about LL elbow. The entire article talked about LL elbow being there as the result of throwing in general. It also talked of overuse and not enough rest. As a recomendation it basically said that the curveball can be dangerous if thrown incorrectly. One of my biggest points here was that it must be thrown correctly if it is going to be thrown.

As I read section in the article on not thowing cb's before age 14, it indicates that because of the size of a child's hand, it is nearly impossible to throw the cb correctly.
Because the hand of most kids 14 and under are small, torque is required on the wrist/elbow placing increased stress on the growth plate. To me, that is a risk.
While I appreciate those who say their son throws it properly, I wonder.
Having had a son who didn't throw cb's and still had a growth plate issue, I tend to err on the side of caution and eliminate whatever risk I can recommend to other parents.To my reading, this article identifies cb's as a risk of growth plate injury. It explains why and it explains why it isn't very controllable by coaches, good coaching and the like...it is related to hand size.
In terms of "them" being two separate issues, I am not understanding when there is then the reference to your son and the success he is having in high school.
I'm sorry but I am reading your comments to say that your son learning to throw the cb when he was young helped his development as a pitcher and his success at this level.
If I am reading this wrong, I apologize.
If this isn't about development, then it would seem to me it is all about throwing cb's in little league for the purpose of winning in little league. If that is all this thread is about, then parents can read articles of the type I have posted saying they are a risk and why and determine how important it is to get hitters out when kids are 12.
The point I think is important is that throwing cb's is not without medical risks that have been identified and are easily understood.
BTW, good luck to your son. He sounds very talented.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
Tfox,

quote:

“What about a parent getting lessons for a kid on the small field to learn mechanics that promote arm health if the parents have no experience in that area?”

Physiologically human being learn motor skills better when they have no or less pre-trained Proprioceptive awareness (Neural firing order or muscle memory) to hinder changing mechanics. This means the earlier you get to them the better. The most beneficial lessons I give are to 4,5,6 and 7 year olds because it sets them early correctly rather than trying to retrain a mechanic later plus if the father or mother are there they learn the training regimen so that they can then take over most of the training pretty quickly them selves.

quote:

“(especially if the kid throws hard)”

Why would this matter if the kid sees himself as a pitcher, wants to pursue his dreams and wants to have some fun! Let all of them pitch if they want to so it spreads the load until High school. Then it’s the top 6 guys at the lower levels then the top 4 guys at the upper levels.

Wouldn't it be true that if a kid throws hard but does it incorrectly,the higher the likleyhood of permanent damage?

That was the point of the reference.

I actually have a 10 year old that throws well and hard but I doubt he will pursue pitching.He probably will just because of his naturall ability and coaches will ask him to do it but at this point,I am not sure if he cares about pitching later on.I know he cares about playing centerfield though.

There is no need to teach the curve early as it is a simple pitch to learn but more difficult to master. The more rotational velocity, the more effective. Strengthen the arm with weights and by throwing (not pitching).

While I concur that poor technique can add to the potential for injury, overuse is the main culprit. Without overuse technique problems pale.

How many of you believe that the changes in pitching from the windup to pitching from the set will take a long time to learn? At the point of release both pitches are the same. If you throw a fast ball correctly it is a very small step to throwing a curve correctly.

Pitching lessons before showing proficiency on the full sized diamond is a waste of time and money. And for da**ed sure it is ridiculous at 4 through 6 years of age. Teaching the curve before it is effective on the full sized diamond is a waste of time and money. The curve is simple to learn and to teach.

Professional scouts don't give a tinker's dam about your curve, They are looking for your fast ball. That is because they know they can teach you the curve PDQ.

If it was not for the ridiculous over use and never ending seasons technique would never be an issue and sore arms would be a rarity. All of this prattle has to do with finding a way to protect kids while allowing them to be placed in harm's way by parents and coaches. Lunacy.

Infielddad. Sorry if I wasn't clear. What I was trying to say was in the above mentioned games, he threw very few curve balls. His effectiveness was with his FB and CU. Point being, that throwing a CB earlier did not detract him from working on his FB & CU. I made that point because so many people have made the point that you shouldn't throw a CB at an earlier age because you should focus on the FB & CU. Those are the pithces that will get you to the next level. Hope that makes more sense.

Before my son threw a CB in a game, I had a number of baseball people look at him throw the pitch and give their nod of approval. All of them knew the concept of "turning the doorknob" issue with throwing a curve. Essentially, that is what we are talking about. When a pitcher relies on snapping the wrist and elbow to get the spin on the ball, he is doing it wrong. I taught my son to change his grip and throw the pitch just like his fastball. That is what he did and he got enough spin on the ball to get it to break. Like I said, he did not throw it in a game until I got the go ahead from numerous people/coaches/instructors who knew what they were talking about.

Anyway, I hope that clarifies the issue a little. If not, I'll gladly take the reference off the post if it is not applicable.

bballman,
I think the discussion is great. We obviously have different views on the topic. From where I sit, the important aspect is providing parents of 10-12 year olds and those soon to be 10-12 some views on this issue that will cause them to think carefully and take cautions.
Whether they take the cautions I might propose and not throw cb's at all, or the cautions you have described which are clearly significant and important, I think having agreement on the message of taking cautions is a nice result.
I appreciate the discussion and learning how you approached the issue with your son.

It's all good infielddad. A healthy discussion of the issues will do nothing but help each other by really thinking through our own views and helping others by seeing different sides to the same coin. Keep it coming. I think we're all on the same side in the end.

quote:

Personally, there are aspects to this thread that are causing me to scratch my head.
Fundamentally, I disagree with the idea of throwing CB's as a 10-12 year old.

Why "fundamentally"? If a kid is also working on a FB, and a CU, and developing those as well...why not the curve ball too?

If he's learned to throw the curve correctly, why not?

quote:

I really disagree with it as a concept that the kid isn't likely to play beyond high school so get the most out of that arm at the earliest date. I would like to understand the risk assessment of those types of comments.

If you are referring to my post, that is NOT what I posted. If a kid at 10-18 is NOT pitching TOO MUCH (regardless of what pitches he's throwing) why not let him experiment (correctly supervised) and have some fun. If you think you can stop a kid from throwing a curveball just because you told him not too....well I hope you watch over him ALL the time. Good pitchers, regardless of age, EXPERIMENT on their own.

quote:

But, to me the real issue, beyond the risk of injury, is why?

Maybe because it's a GAME. And being able to throw a GOOD curve ball as a pitcher, is FUN.

quote:

Of course a kid throwing CB's as a 10-12 year old will get hitters out.
By the time they are 13-15, unless they can command that CB(few can from 60'6") and combine it with another pitch they command, like a FB, they will get less hitters out.

You have the link to the study that you got that "few" figure from when talking about being able to control a good curve from 60'6"? Was that a small sampling? And who mentioned they couldn't command another pitch? No one here is saying "throw all curve balls..just curve balls, you'll be great.."

quote:

By the time they are 15-17, there has to be even better command of a CB, better command of a FB, or you will have even less success against hitters.
By the time you get to college, pitchers will not succeed by doing what they did as 10-12 year olds.

Well hitters must have gotten alot better at 15-18 years old than they were when I was playing. I know more than a few guys who probably could have played pro ball (or higher in pro ball) if they COULD hit a QUALITY curve ball. Any kid that is playing HS Varsity can hit a FB........how many can hit a GOOD curve ball?

quote:

Even if they can command the CB, when college hitters know that is your out pitch, it becomes the pitch they attack. They see it so many times, they enjoy the AB's. The way pitchers get outs with college hitters is by getting them into pitchers counts and being able to throw a pitch they have not seen in that AB. If it is a hitters count, they need to be able to throw pitchers the hitters do not expect, in places they are not looking.

They "attack" it? Alot of college players must be future MLB hitters. I don't see alot of hitters being successful against GOOD curve balls. And who said that was the "out" pitch. you can't have a good curve and still have a good FB, CU, or even more pitches than that?

quote:

If you want evidence of this, look at Barry Zito. When he was 87-89, his curve ball was considered the best in baseball. When his velocity dropped to 82-83, he couldn't pitch well enough with his curve ball to have success and had 2 pretty miserable years. This year he is back to 87-89 and his CB is back to one of the best in baseball.

So you don't think that that big drop velocity also effected his curve ball? So his FB dropped in velo but his curve didn't?

quote:

Bottom line: success as a 10-12 year old throwing CB's has nothing to do with baseball, even if we leave out the risk of injury. I think we need to be honest here: having your son throw CB's as a 10-12 year old is because you want him to be successful and to win.

Now you're reaching. Don't stereotype or generalize OTHER kid's parents. Sure that does exist. But just because you don't want to teach a 10-12 year old a CORRECTLY thrown curve ball, don't criticize those who do. And who doesn't want their 10-99 year old to be SUCCESSFUL AND WIN? Whether it's baseball, football, s****r, tiddly winks, band or video games?

quote:

Why is that important at ages 10-12? Are you telling them they cannot get hitters out with the FB at the same age, or that you don't think they can??? How do you know they wouldn't have the same success with FB/change up??

nobody said they couldn't. You assumed that.

Show me ONE KID who hurt his arm throwing curve balls..who wasn't OVERUSED, and who was throwing it correctly.

I taught my 12 year old kid a curve at 10...we practiced it. He started using it in games last year. He's confident enough in the curve ball to be able to throw it in ANY count for strikes a majority of the time. He also throws a 2 seam FB, a 4 seam FB, a CU, and a knuckle. That makes me a "win at all cost, I don't care if you get hurt, keep striking them out" parent right? Even though I limit his AMOUNT of pitching? Even though I've taught him to OUT THINK the hitters, not over power them (no matter the pitch)?

He's learned at 12, that once the other team KNOWS he has a good breaking pitch, that's almost as effective as the pitch itself. You don't need to throw it. You just need to make WORRY about it.

He gets more strikeouts on the FB...because the hitter is thinking CURVEBALL at 0-2, 1-2 etc...

Same reason most of his strikeouts on 2-2 and 3-2 counts are off speed pitches because hitters EXPECT a grooved FB.

I can tell you this...there is a local coach who makes it a point to tell his parents and other coaches that he doesn't let his pitchers throw any breaking pitches before they are 15 years old. FB, CU only.

Guess what happens when the kids on the other teams find out they can't throw any breaking pitches? They get shelled.

On the other hand, there is a kid I know how throws unbelieveable gas for a 12 year old. He'll throw HARD the first inning. And after that he can ease up, throw a CB, a CU, a knuckle ball....he only has to throw that HEAT every now and then. Because the hitters get focused on how hard he throws.

BBMAN you nailed what I was saying.
Yes 2 arguments going on. My commenents were directed more at TPM who infered that my son was struggling because he only developed the CB. He was a complete pitcher and proved it in his 1st 2 college years. He proved it against Florida State, Usc Gamecocks, College of Charleston and several others. The 1st 33 inninjgs of his soph year he had an OBa under 200 and an ERA just over 2.

Personally I am scratching my head as to how he could take such a major down turn. I had him back on track the 1st few games this season after spending 15 mins with him in the summer. 1st game he threw 5 ,1 hit innings. He threw 4 innings against the Gamecocks giving up3 runs but holding them scoreless in the 1st for the 1st time in the season and they were 12-0. He then threw 5, 2 hit scoreless innings against the Citadel. I think he can pitch at D1 level. Unfortunately he has drifted back to his bad habits.
As a 16yo he was followed by thye Jays, Tampa and has had the Red Sox looking at him lately. He doesn't see a future for himself in Pro ball. He just made the Deans List and wants to find a job rather than waste time chasing what he knows is a big stretch.

Thanks for expressing your views. Sounds like your son is doing really well in his 12 year old year. I hope it continues.
For me, I guess I came to those observations from watching 1000's of games through high school, college, Summer Wood bat league and Milb games, talking baseball with my son, his college and Milb teammates, their friends, his high school and college coaches, other college coaches and many, many others along the way, and for the last two years with my son who is now just completing his second year of coaching.
I have some sense of what I knew about baseball when he was 12 and I was a coach.
I am pretty confident I would not have made my comments and those posts when he was 12.
I went back and read them again after reading your views based on the experience since he was 12.
Yup, I am pretty comfortable with what I posted.

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
The biggest problem with youth baseball?

Parents of 12-year olds who think they already have all of the answers.

I just got back from a ball game and it is great to see people having a great discussion.

BHD,
It comes to an end for all of our sons at some point.
The pride you have in your son is so obvious. The fact you helped him have a love and passion for the game, along with success, is all I think you can do.
I would like to change the way it ended for our son, but I can't.
We don't agree on some things on this board.
I sure do agree I see the passion and feelings in your last post.
I am not about to disagree with your looking back and cherishing the journey.

quote:

Originally posted by Daque:
There is no need to teach the curve early as it is a simple pitch to learn but more difficult to master. The more rotational velocity, the more effective. Strengthen the arm with weights and by throwing (not pitching).

While I concur that poor technique can add to the potential for injury, overuse is the main culprit. Without overuse technique problems pale.

How many of you believe that the changes in pitching from the windup to pitching from the set will take a long time to learn? At the point of release both pitches are the same. If you throw a fast ball correctly it is a very small step to throwing a curve correctly.

Pitching lessons before showing proficiency on the full sized diamond is a waste of time and money. And for da**ed sure it is ridiculous at 4 through 6 years of age. Teaching the curve before it is effective on the full sized diamond is a waste of time and money. The curve is simple to learn and to teach.

Professional scouts don't give a tinker's dam about your curve, They are looking for your fast ball. That is because they know they can teach you the curve PDQ.

If it was not for the ridiculous over use and never ending seasons technique would never be an issue and sore arms would be a rarity. All of this prattle has to do with finding a way to protect kids while allowing them to be placed in harm's way by parents and coaches. Lunacy.

Great stuff Daque. Also good stuff from Infielddad.

Are CB more dangerous? Yup, IMO, because young pitchers throwing more CB often have success, which leads to overuse (let's use little Johnny more often he's a winner), the same as hard throwers being more dominant when younger (again let's use Johnny more often he is a winner).
Throwing 80-90% CB, IMO, is not learning how to pitch, but just about winning. The more you win, the more you play. The more you are overused.
The whole thing is about learning how to be a pitcher, not a thrower. When to learn which pitch in waht coutm you can't do that suing CB's 90% of teh time, sorry.
For every person that claims that CB's are safe if taught properly and a very young age, you will get another saying it is not. This is about sommon sense, pertaining to your player and what is right or wrong for them. Some people just won't take chances when a body is still growing.


BHD,
I'll bet your son threw more, pitched more (you often stated that he played several teams at one time) and obviously threw more breaking stuff, but not sure what that has to do with it.
I'll even bet he was a better pitcher too in LL.

Yes, you did say your son threw 90% CB when younger, and never had a hurt arm. That inference is that, "it's ok to throw a lot of CB when young".
Everyone is different, every situation is different, don't make it seem like it is ok, perhaps for your player, not for everyone.

Infield none of us knew anything without investigating. BB was not my first love, football was. I had to learn most of what I know. I did pitvh BB and fast ball.
I had to get info from several sources just like many others here. We did have access to MLB,MiLB, College ball etc and I can tell you there aren't many who have seen more games at all levels than I have.
Your son was with the Jays who had a MiL team in our city. Pirates had one 12 miles away, 3 D1s 30 ins away aswell as several JCs. I watch up close to hundreds of MiLB pitchers go through here as well as Jays rehab guys like Carpenter Henke and many others. I also was there when they practiced and taught the island guys english. It was a great time for me and my son. I usede to have tons of rookie shots of several pitchers and guys like Delgado, Wells and many others. My firend was their official photographer. We were invited to all the team parties and son was told to bring his glove and ball.
You once gave me that I had legit experience. Not sure why I have to keep repeating it.
I personally knew Kevin Briad head of Jays player development and speacial events from when they scouted my son.

Don't mean to be an antagonizer, but now we have a third issue:

quote:

Are CB more dangerous? Yup, IMO, because young pitchers throwing more CB often have success, which leads to overuse (let's use little Johnny more often he's a winner), the same as hard throwers being more dominant when younger (again let's use Johnny more often he is a winner).

Overuse is overuse. Coaches and parents need to be mindful of overuse regardless of what pitches a kid throws. Following that line of thinking, you could say that a kid who throws harder than most his age shouldn't throw the fastball because he will be overused.

Separate issue. Do not overuse the kids. Do not pitch them past the point of fatigue and make sure they get plenty of rest between outings.

quote:

Are CB more dangerous? Yup, IMO, because young pitchers throwing more CB often have success, which leads to overuse (let's use little Johnny

Yes he did play for 3-4 teams a season when he was 15-17. HS, triple aaa OBA, 18U District All stars and an Elite team. I told you he was the poster boy for over use.
He also was examined 2 times a season by Dr John Gleddie or as need if he had any isuues. He only had 1 issue and that was a strained Ulnar due to cooling down on a brutal day in a spring tournament. I also mentioned he pulled himself in the middle of an outstandin game in the 5th. 10 Ks in 4 innings. That performance and the perfect game he threw got him recommended to Cam Walker at Indian Hills by the tournament organizer. It was 18U.
All I am saying is thatCBs are safe if thrown properly. They are less stressful than FBs according to my son.
You tried to dump on my son because he is struggling and it has nothing to do with his reliance on CBs. You can dump on little Johnny all you like. Note than in the fresh and soph years he used his CB and the JR year the coach relied on FBs. Several pitchers were upset with that; The 1st 2 years he gave up 2 HRs and 4 doubles. The last 2 he was giving them up like they were going out of style. Also the first few games this year he was using his CB and for some reason the coach stopped calling for it. As I said I commented on the fact no announcers were mentioning his breaking balls . That is when he told me. In his soph year he had 10 pickoffs/caught stealings and none in his JR year. A bi product of poor mechanics.

Infield thankyou. I know how hurt you are about your son's injury.
For me it has always been about the education and experience. I am actually not upset about BB ending at all. I was always a fierce competitor in sports and I was hoping the team would have a better season and that my son would get back to where he was in his soph year. His fiances father tells her he was a great pitcher until she showed up. She worries that I might blame her but I told her she is far more important than any old college BB game.
I just paid #360 to extend his visa so he can work in Charleston. What a great city and wonderful people. We may never get him back.
I have 3 daughters. 1 in British Columbia, 1 in Whitehorse and 1 just moved to Germany. Thank god for skype video calls. In all of this I am wondering what we did wrong ?

BHD,
I was never upset about the injury.
When they play as hard as mine did, and play 40 straight Milb games in 42 days, injury is a risk. He isn't the first in Milb and surely won't be the last.
Do I wish he had received better, more timely and focused medical care? Absolutely I do. But, it is a great thing there are folks like Dr Andrews.
All of those items have been resolved nicely for him, and he is able to pursue college coaching as a career.

Like yours, ours graduated in 4 years, before he was drafted. He is now on to his life after playing baseball, without a fiance, that I know about.
He got to play at a very high level and I am sure will be telling Randy Johnson stories for the rest of his life.

BHD,
I was not putting down your player, but have over time tried to understand your posts.

The last few have made more sense than any before them. I may not be the only one who is noticing that.
According to your son breaking balls are less stressful than FB. According to mine, FB are less stressful. So that is my point that each pitcher is totally different.

That is the first time you have ever said that is your son's opinion, do you get my point?

There is nothing wrong with your son wanting more to his life than the chance to play baseball year after year. There is nothing wrong with we as parents accepting that and knowing when the game ends, it ends. What you do after your life begins is what is most important.

Your kids living far away means that perhaps you did your job well as a parent. Raising independent individuals to allow them to live their own life if what they say makes you a good parent, not to be dependent upon us after they reach a certain age.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
The biggest problem with youth baseball?

Parents of 12-year olds who think they already have all of the answers.

Wow...that's pretty personal. We go from a discussion about curve balls at the youth level to you insulting me.

Just a question. You can answer it, or deflect it..

How long did you play?

And I never said I had all the answers. I said add as many tools as you can, have fun and enjoy it. Because for 99% it ends before they want it too....

I was happy with my run. Topping out at 89 won't get you paid as a RHP....but it made Div I pretty enjoyable for a very short time...until 4 years of HS FB caught up ....

7 pages. Wow! Could it just be that everyone basis their opinion on their own personal experiences in the game? And everyone has alot of different experiences in the game so everyone has a different opinon? So could it be that you are all right because in your situation that is what you experienced?

Why dont we just focus on the things we can all agree on. Overuse can lead to some arm issues - or will.
Improper throwing mechanics can lead to some arm issues - or will.
What worked for you might not have worked for someone else.
What didnt work for you might work for someone else.
And none of us has all the answers.

If someones experience in the game showed them something no one is going to come on here and convince them that it didnt show them that. No amount of discussion is going to change what you experienced from being what you experienced.

I will sit back and read the next 7 pages before I post again.

justbaseball and I don't have any of the answers.
Heck, I will bet your velocity in college might be higher than both of ours combined.
We are just a couple of old experienced folks.
Coached in LL, been involved in the running of LL and beyond. Seen a lot.
I have been on this site a very long time.
In that period I have really learned a lot.
Hopefully, I have shared information to help others learn too.
I surely know I don't have all the answers. I value the opinions of others.
I am sure justbb can speak for himself but I will say I enjoyed seeing him cheering his son who was pitching in Omaha last June 23 in the CWS,
But what do we know. We are just a couple of old Dad's. Your son is a 12 year old and doing great.
I wish him the best.
BTW, it strikes me as odd that there are so many posts about over use or cb.
To me, that isn't the issue at all. It is overuse and cb's. They both combine. It isn't mutually exclusive and no one knows where one starts and the other stops.
Funny how this happens. When I first posted, it seemed like I was in a different world from bballman.
With his last post on paying attention to all pitches, whether they be FB/CB or something else, it seems that gap narrowed considerably.
Funny how this works on the HSBBW.

ctandc - I've been reading your posts. Lots of good stuff, but you seem to convey that you have all of the answers. That struck me as odd.

Since you seem to want resumes...I have 4 sons...all have played baseball...I coached them all into HS. Two still play, one of them in the minor leagues, the other still in HS. I am old, getting older yet I feel like I'm learning more and more about all levels of baseball every time I watch a game at any level, any time I read an article or listen to an interview, any time I read this website...including this thread (the two sons who are still playing, both pitchers).

I went to a college game tonight, talked to some old-timers like me, and learned another thing or two.

I didn't mean to insult you, but I admit I was trying to make a point. I doubt you got it. Maybe when your son is 10 years older than he is now, you'll get what I'm saying?

I thought some of your posts were pointed in their tone towards other posters, so I thought you could handle the same.

Sorry I was wrong.

Tfox,

quote:

“Wouldn't it be true that if a kid throws hard but does it incorrectly, the higher the likelihood of permanent damage?”

You would think so but I have witnessed the injury ratio’s do not discriminate between the two, both degrade their arms if improper force application is used It gets down to mechanical adherence to supinated drives and releases and over early(at leg lift) rotation amounts that cause centrifuging (traditional teachings), all of these players are susceptible to injuries and the pronators with straightened out drivelines stay healthy.
Players that are genetically gifted to throw fast will also make the physiological changes needed to as they age to throw fast safely only if there mechanics are non injurious and the same goes for less gifted players.

quote:

“I know he cares about playing centerfield though.”

Tell him to always ask the coach if he can play there!! then he will get to follow his desire.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
ctandc - I've been reading your posts. Lots of good stuff, but you seem to convey that you have all of the answers. That struck me as odd.

Since you seem to want resumes...I have 4 sons...all have played baseball...I coached them all into HS. Two still play, one of them in the minor leagues, the other still in HS. I am old, getting older yet I feel like I'm learning more and more about all levels of baseball every time I watch a game at any level, any time I read an article or listen to an interview, any time I read this website...including this thread (the two sons who are still playing, both pitchers).

I went to a college game tonight, talked to some old-timers like me, and learned another thing or two.

I didn't mean to insult you, but I admit I was trying to make a point. I doubt you got it. Maybe when your son is 10 years older than he is now, you'll get what I'm saying?

I thought some of your posts were pointed in their tone towards other posters, so I thought you could handle the same.

Sorry I was wrong.

Just thought it was an odd way to go from there. I apologize if it wasn't intended that way.

Cause I sure don't know it all.

I was just a bit riled up since I See the curve ball blamed all the time, and that's why I usually don't get involved in these threads.

Overuse is overuse is overuse.

I agree with Coach May, everyone's situation is different because every pitcher is different.

I am not sold on the concept that CB causes injury, or that the FB causes injury, my point is that all pitches thrown, too much, too young even older CAN cause injury.

FWIW, again, son threw hard, so he wasn't allowed to throw a CB in game situations until he reached HS. No sliders or knuckleballs either. That was it for him, so doesn't mean it won't work for someone else. That's just what he did, maybe if he didn't throw harder, things would have been different.

Infielddad,
BTW, Hurley down with TJS.

Wow 7 pages!
As the OP of this topic, I want to thank everyone for contributing.I've learned a lot from you all. Mostly, that I'm doing things right by being concerned, watching that my son doesn't get over used, making him work on ALL of his pitches etc.. I feel like maybe I've been downplaying his ability to pitch in H.S. because of his lack of velocity(which is all most seem to care about). He is a "pitcher" not a "thrower". He gets people out by keepimg FB's down,changing speeds, and being able to throw CB ANYTIME. It makes his FB look 90mph. Therefore we see lots of groundballs and quick innings.We have 5 kids on our team who throw harder but can't get people out. They could on the small field, but from 60'6" it's a little different.Overuse is a big concern of mine, although it hasn't been a problem this year because I handle the pitchers on our school team and I'm trying to develop as many as I can for the H.S. coach.
I don't think these days with the bats that are available in H.S. and College that 80-85 will work if you can't change speeds and locate.Even in H.S. JMHO.
I know that to be recruited you need to have velocity.Thats why everyone talks about it. That's also why so many get recruited and never make it.The scout found a kid with exceptional velocity and hoped he could "learn to be a pitcher" at the next level.Odds are if he had heat, he didn't have to know how to pitch. It doesn't happen very often, but thats the world we live in. Just like they say "speed" is #1 thing in a position player. They want the fastest 1st, then see if he can hit at next level. Meanwhile, they're leaving tons of kids behind that are "gamers" but couldn't touch 90 on a gun or run a 4.5 40.

I also believe that throwing pitches in a game isn't where the damage is done. It's all the practice that it takes a kid to become proficient with his pitches.My son NEVER practices his CB. Like so many have said, it's an EASY pitch to learn. CU, now that's a tough pitch to command. That's the one that should be thrown as much as possible, especially in LT.

Unfortunetly, and I don't always agree, velocity is important, but lots of it depends upon the individual pitcher. This is where common sense comes into play.
One other thing, depending on being a LHP or a RHP, the rules change. A lefty has to learn to adapt due to lack of velocity, that RHP possesses. Breaking balls become more important for lower velocity pitchers as you move up to the next level. But that doesn't mean that developing velocity is not something you stop working on, or not rely on, even if it means your game has to suffer for awhile.

JMO.

ctandc - Not a problem. Like I said, lots of good stuff in many of your posts. I definitely like your attitude of 'enjoy it while you can.' Thats pretty much the way I look at it.

Look forward to reading about your son's coming years.

TPM there are some very hard throwing LHP. Adam Loewen was mid 90s but unfortunately his arm is wrecked. Fortunately after his 7.2M contract was near an end. Did the Oriols get there money's worth ? Adam is now a Jay and trying to get back as a fielder.
You can wreck your arm with any pitch and most do not have great velo. My son's doctor told me 2 weeks ago about a 14yo who came to him with the inside of his elbow black and blue. He in all his years never saw anything like it. The kid was a rec ball player.
My son's college team has 3 guys who pitch in the 90s. The one hits 97-98. He is a closer and will get drafted next year. He also hits the ball out of the park. I believe he holds the record at the college for most HRs now and hit 3 in one game. He plays RF and no one runs on him. The announcers are always commenting on what a gun he has. He also has great mechanics MOST of the time. There is always the possibility he could make that one bad throw like so many I know have.
If you are going to pitch know your bady, develop all your pitches and put in the effort to strengthen your body/arm to minimize the risk.
I also recommend regular check ups with a chiropractor who knows what to look at. Some injuries are built up like scare tissue and bpne chips. Some injuries happen in a flash.

4 Seamer: It appears that your son has discovered a most important facet in pitching. Hitting is about pitch recognition and timing whereas pitching is about deception and disruption of timing.

Yes, there are some hard LHP, not talking college or pro here, but what is safe for younger players.

I beleive in chiropractic care. Son went to chiropractor in HS, and recently off season.

But in my experience, no one knows much until you go inside and take a look.

TPM I was amazed at what our doc could tell. He could feel swollen Ulnar, scare tissue, bone chips shoulder sock strenght. I watched him and he explained everything as he worked on my son. If he found a problem it went to the mext step . MRI, ultra sound etc.
It was interesting and I learned a lot about what to look for. The main thing I learned was not to pitch with pain and he told my son he did the right thing when he pulled himself from that game. I was very pround that he did that. He didn't have pain even it just didn't feel right. It would have been easy to ingnor and get caught up in the game and people counting his strikeouts out loud. It was even more difficult since it was his old team from 17U.
There have been some good posts here. I like some others just get tired of hearing people blame CBs and blame parents for wanting their little Johnny to be a star. If you thyink about it is very insulting and no one knows but the player and the parent what they have done to prepare their son.

TPM I have mentioned that my son found it less stressful to throw a CB every time we have this discussion. When I pitched we never used CBs because no one taught us how to throw them. Fortunately I had a great FB and a great arm from years of weight lifting.

My comment is my opinion and sorry if you felt insulted.
I don't know about you, but even though son has come through to this point relatively healthy, with some minor issues, looking back there are things that we would change. Mostly, not starting kid pitching at 8-9 but waiting until son was closer to HS age, or perhaps in HS.

I was a parent of a young pitcher who could get kids out, I do remember those feelings of pride that he was obviously a good player and the team's star pitcher. It's normal. And it is so normal to get caught up in letting your young player do more than he should because he is who everyone wants on their team (or multiple teams). While husband was pretty pain in the a$$ about his pitching and who he played for and what he threw, we watched the other kids pitch game after game, in multiple leagues, throwing everything with no limits. Most don't play anymore, due to injury or burn out.

Better information is avaliable now and there was no HSBBW back then.

Common sense, I think there is no argument when you hurt or something doesn't feel right you stop. The first thing to teach your player, no matter what position, be honest if you don't feel well.

We all get caught up in what we feel is the best way for young players, and mostly based on our own experience, but I'll bet if you asked most parents who have pitchers or players our son's age, they to would go back and do things differently.

Anyway, this has gotten off track, for the record I never said here that throwing CB's caused injury.

My son was the opposite.

BTW, I forgot, this has been a good discussion.
One thing that did jump out at me, was infielddad's comment about Hurley.

Ny son played with him on a travel team in HS, he was amazing and he was successful and I agree with the statement from IFD. That's why, developing the FB is important for every pitcher above all other pitches, it can affect your other stuff as well. Good point!

It is my udnerstanding that he played on several team, often. Regardless, he was able to remain healthy to get where he is, without injury and that, should be the goal, no matter what level one is aiming for at the time or for the future.

I just started throwing a curve this past fall as a sophomore. Until then I just had fastball, change up, and cut fastball. My changeup is still my best pitch. If you have a good one, it fools hitters more than anything.

Where has Bobblehead been lately? Its good to see you are back.

quote:

Originally posted by MarlinsMS_35:
I just started throwing a curve this past fall as a sophomore. Until then I just had fastball, change up, and cut fastball. My changeup is still my best pitch. If you have a good one, it fools hitters more than anything.

That's great. The thing is..a good change up and a good curve ball are fairly common once you get to high school and beyond. What's rare is EXCEPTIONAL change up or an EXCEPTIONAL curve ball.

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
That's great. The thing is..a good change up and a good curve ball are fairly common once you get to high school and beyond. What's rare is EXCEPTIONAL change up or an EXCEPTIONAL curve ball.

Good or exceptional doesn't matter, what does is if they are thrown for strikes in any count and produces desired results.

quote:

Good or exceptional doesn't matter, what does is if they are thrown for strikes in any count and produces desired results.

May I pick this nit, please?

The thing that makes one curve break more than another is the velocity of rotation generated. More spin means more drop.

While command and control are essential for any pitch, a pitcher may well obtain the desired results as it relates to the pitch only to see it become a souvenier for some fan in the center field bleachers.

What is the perfect pitch? Does it exist? If the genie gave a pitcher one wish and he wished for the perect pitch, what would it be? For me, it would be the ability to throw an unhittable strike.

no problem with nit picking.

I did mention desired results. Becoming a souvenior, I agree is not always producing the result that the pitcher may want.

I agree the perfect pitch is producing unhittable strikes. Do you agree that you will not find too many pitchers that have all 3-4 of their pitches that are exceptional.

I didn't want the young man to think that is what he needs to move forward.

TPM: I wish I had a quarter for every pitch that I wanted to call back as it left my hand. But there were some that looked very good until batter swung and the ball became a waver pitch. I waved at it, F4 waved at it, and F8 waved at it. Part of the game.

quote:

Originally posted by Daque:
TPM: I wish I had a quarter for every pitch that I wanted to call back as it left my hand. But there were some that looked very good until batter swung and the ball became a waver pitch. I waved at it, F4 waved at it, and F8 waved at it. Part of the game.

I know a pitcher who probably wishes he had the same quarter (s).

quote:

I wish I had a quarter for every pitch that I wanted to call back as it left my hand. But there were some that looked very good until batter swung and the ball became a waver pitch. I waved at it, F4 waved at it, and F8 waved at it. Part of the game.

This happens to the best pitchers and even when a great pitch is thrown. Any time someone swings a peice of lumber through the strike zone accidents can happen.

A game where mistakes happen often, that is for sure.
But not so much about mistakes, but how you come back after you have made the mistake and taking ownership. That is what helps you to move forward.

Dontrelle Willis returns on Wednesday.

http://www.freep.com/article/2...9/SPORTS02/905090390

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
That's great. The thing is..a good change up and a good curve ball are fairly common once you get to high school and beyond. What's rare is EXCEPTIONAL change up or an EXCEPTIONAL curve ball.

Good or exceptional doesn't matter, what does is if they are thrown for strikes in any count and produces desired results.

True. But if the pitch is a quality pitch, it doesn't really have to be a strike..it just has to LOOK like a strike to the hitter.

I thought I would come in and share this. We just found out yesterday during a tournament that our 11u team just lost our #1 pitcher.

This is a great kid with a lot of potential.The kid had great location/control, 65 to 67 mph fastball, good change up, wicked curve. The parents showed up to the tournament yesterday with a doctors report.

The kid cant play baseball again without Tommy John. When the parents showed me the report the kid was standing their with tears in his eyes. This really ****ed me off.

See I keep hearing on this thread how if a curve ball is thrown correctly that it doesnt put as much strain on the arm as a fastball. However lets just assume for one moment that is correct. ( ASSUME )

You have a lot of dads out there coaching travel ball that are clueless about anything mechanical with baseball. They may think they know something because they played a little high school baseball but they dont. Then you have the dads / coach that has the win at all cost mentality that will allow a kid to throw 100 + pitches an outing at 10 and 11 yrs old.

These coaches of this kid who was our teams #1 pitcher had him throwing curve balls at least 50% of the time. Why because he was good enough to throw them for strikes at age 11. Now Im not talking about looping curve balls. I am talkling about curves that SNAP.

This is the 3rd kid pitcher I have seen since Feb of this year go out of youth baseball with arm problems. Im not talking about 14 or 15 year olds. I am talking this is the 3rd kid I personally know of from ages 10 to 11. The common factor they all have in common is they all threw a lot of curve balls.

Its tough for kids at this age to sit back on a curve ball when these same pitchers have 60 to 68 mph fastballs and they throw a curve ball that comes in at 45 mph. So since most coaches know this some of them abuse the use of curve balls.

Now some of you might say well the parents should know better. Well most parents just want to see their kid shine. They ASSUME because their kid is looking good on the baseball field and the team is winning that the coaches must know what they are talking about or doing and dont question any of the advice their son is getting from the coaches.

In a nutshell any parent who allows their child to throw a curve ball is putting their childs health and baseball future at risk. Your child might be the one who doesnt get arm trouble but then again he might tear his arm completely up. Why risk this at 10,11,12,13 or 14 years of age.

What you are hearing is absolutely correct. Don't know where you live but we have an excellent pitching coach that has taught my sons how to throw a KNUCKLE curve that will not injure their arms. My youngest son started pitching at 9 and was a side arm thrower. He started lessons shortly after and his coach changed his technique and corrected his form and he now plays 13 majors and is doing great. Our coach is Ray Vaughn he owns Fast Pitch America in Seagoville. 5 of our Pitchers now go to him. He is well worth the cost of lessons. Tell him the Ferra's sent you.

quote:

In a nutshell any parent who allows their child to throw a curve ball is putting their childs health and baseball future at risk.

Wrong! It would only be the parents whose kids are playing for coaches who can't spot failing mechanics.

With your logic we should bubble wrap our kids and not let them out of the house. A batted ball could kill them. Getting hit by a fastball could kill them. Crashing into a teammate or fence could kill them. They could get killed riding to or from the game.

My son was once tossed into a wall driving to the hoop for a game winning layup. Should he stop going to the hoop? He (s****r goalie) has been kicked in the head pulling a shot of a shooter's foot. Then there's football.

ASA softball requires facemaks on batting helmets. When my daughter got to college softball the first thing she did was request a helmet without a mask. I didn't have a problem with the decision. She once whiplashed herself catching her mask on the ground sliding headfirst. So much for safety. The mask injured her. She never took a pitch or foul ball in the mask.

Sports and life are full of inherent risks. It's up to each family to assess the risks and make their own decisions. What is sad is when parents are uninformed and make the wrong decisions.

Most kids that throw curves also are over used, so the jury may still be out on that one.

Yeah you are gonna have lots of people come here and say I taught son how to throw a safe curve, or son's p coach taught him a safe way to throw a CB. Well, I don't buy it, even if safe, if you have success you are gonna be in the game more than other pitchers. Same way with a hard thrower that doesn't throw Cb's he's in the game more because he is dominate. You don't REALLY know, so you just eliminate what MAY be a problem until the pitcher gets older.
That's why young pitchers shouldn't be all wrapped up in pitching, a few innings a week, then play position.

JMO

I understand your pain, disappointment, and anger. The fact of the matter is that some kids just break. Some sooner than others. Even with flawless technique. But as yu pointed out, some kids are overused.

This kid has been throwing a, "curve" since on the small diamond. I am going to offer a guess that it was not a true curve breaking from 12 to 6 O'Clock away from the pitcher and having a downward trajectory. At this distance, to be effective, it would have to be a slurve or little league curve with some degree of lateral rotation.

Now take into account that it sounds like this kid was playing on more than one team in a climate that allows for year around baseball. This is a recipe for overuse and abuse.

Ultimately, it is the resonsibility of the parents to know what their children are involved in and the dangers thereof. I have forever said that you cannot protect a child from his parents and gave up trying years ago.

I may be all wet on the read on this kid. But while it is the, "curve" that gets the blame it is the overuse that is the real culprit. The motion at the elbow joint is the same for a real curve or a fast ball. So while this kid is now broken, don't blame the curve, blame the responsible adults that were supposed to protect him. You are preaching to the choir with the wrong message.

How many months off from baseball did this kid have pere year?

OCB you seem to make a lot assumptions based on you limited knowledge and experience.
***-U-ME is what you get from assuming.

I have 2 Friends I just watched play elite senior BB. One was the closer for Arkansas LR and the other hadn't pitched in years until recently. He just got back from playing pro ball in Italy after D1 college. Both these guys threw FBs/CU and were prospects hitting 85 at 14yo. Neither threw CBs except on a rare occasion. Both had at least 2 major surgeries on their throwing arm. Both were spectacular throwing complete games against college and ex pros. The one was in the low 90s. Don't they teach "Scientific Methods" in your schools? I don't know why people keep conclusions based on limited knowledge and experience.
Even DR Andrews won't draw that conclusion.

quote:

...so you just eliminate what MAY be a problem until the pitcher gets older.

Following your logic, since the shoulder and elbow motion are the same for both a fast ball and a curve, kids should not pitch unless it is in softball. Until what age can they begin pitching baseball? Machine pitch until the full sized diamond?

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
OCB you seem to make a lot assumptions based on you limited knowledge and experience.
***-U-ME is what you get from assuming.

I have 2 Friends I just watched play elite senior BB. One was the closer for Arkansas LR and the other hadn't pitched in years until recently. He just got back from playing pro ball in Italy after D1 college. Both these guys threw FBs/CU and were prospects hitting 85 at 14yo. Neither threw CBs except on a rare occasion. Both had at least 2 major surgeries on their throwing arm. Both were spectacular throwing complete games against college and ex pros. The one was in the low 90s. Don't they teach "Scientific Methods" in your schools? I don't know why people keep conclusions based on limited knowledge and experience.
Even DR Andrews won't draw that conclusion.

BobbleheadDoll, I know Im just another user name on a forum and you dont know me from Sam Brown. However my experience I would bet exceeds that of yours based on some of your comments I have read.

I not only played high school and college baseball, but I have also coached at those levels. Now am I claiming to know everything about the game of baseball...NO, I do however have my areas of expertise and I know a hell of a lot more than the average person.

Im not here to debate this. I have my opinions, you have yours. I will never change yours nor you mine. However if ONE parent who has a child playing youth baseball reads this and then decides to not allow their 10,11 or 12 year old to throw another curve ball, some good will have come out of my post.

On a side note. My son doesnt pitch and even though I disagree with kids throwing curve balls, I appreciate those dads and coaches that allow their kids too. It only helps my son as a hitter learn to recognize and adjust to those pitches at an early age.

quote:

I will never change yours nor you mine. However if ONE parent who has a child playing youth baseball reads this and then decides to not allow their 10,11 or 12 year old to throw another curve ball, some good will have come out of my post.

Based on your comments you don't know about arm injuries and continue the fear mongering. You are right I don't know you and have to judge you on your statements.

quote:

On a side note. My son doesnt pitch and even though I disagree with kids throwing curve balls, I appreciate those dads and coaches that allowing their kids too. It only helps my son as a hitter to learn to recognize and adjust to those pitches at an early age.

Amen to that brother!!