Curveballs

quote:

The thing I have been noticing lately, again in my lowly opinion, is that kids at the same size, age as when I grew up are throwing MUCH harder on average. Sometimes I think these pre-puberty guys can actually get to the point where their pitching mechanics are "too good" for the pre-puberty bodies and things 'give' and injury occurs.

I agree with you fully there. I watch the pitchers on our team and at times I honestly feel that they are throwing really dang hard, much harder than perhaps they should. Our coach noticed this in a game and took the starting pitcher out after only two innings- said he was pitching real hard and didn't want to risk it!

In practice I notice this also with kids on the team trying to outdo each other. I feel that some elite travel kids do throw harder than past elite kids and as such they have better mechanics. It seems that we see more 90+ mph pitchers in HS than ever before!

RJM: Good article abstract. I would like to have seen the definition they used for, "curve." since they also talk about, "breaking pitches."

ctandc makes a good point about kids overthrowing to a velocity that their infrastructure is not built for. We used to talk about combat pilots stating that they were like a 6 volt bulb in a 12 volt socket. They burned very bright but not for very long.

There are posters on this board who clamor for evidence and then ignore it when presented. Sort of like a be careful what you ask for situation for them. They prefer to go with their own biases because it allows them to do what they want to do. And that is their right but I have led the camels to the water and can do no more.

As you know, it is overuse that is the culprit. Next is poor technique including throwing little league curves or slurves on the small diamonds fall into that category. The properly thrown curve is not a part of the equation.

The problem with some posters and a huge number of other coaches is they do not want to face the truth about overuse and it is easier to blame the curve and lump it with all other breaking pitches. The only two pitches that I know of that are dangerous are the slurve and the slider.

While the elimination of the curve in youth baseball is their rally cry their agenda is to continue to promote overuse because that is where they get their kicks.

A day will come when a crafty lawyer will be $uing for child abu$e and will win. The supporting evidence is now available. That will bring about mandatory limitations on pitching for kids. Big brother will save us from ourselves once again.

How do you define throwing hard ?

I think I see what you are getting at TR.

What I see are there are those that throw hard that look like they are putting a lot of effort into it. There are those who look like they are putting a lot of effort into it and do not throw hard. Then there are those that do not look like they are throwing hard, yet the ball explodes out of their hand.

I think (just my opinion at this point) that it is those that look like they are really trying hard that run into problems. I think it winds up being much more effecient and maybe safer for those who are smooth in their delivery and make it look effortless that wind up with fewer issues.

I do not know if you can teach all how to be smooth or if it just comes naturally. I know I see some kids get to the mound and really look like they are putting full effort into every pitch and I immediately think "they won't be up there long". Others just seem to sail through with seemingly no effort. Those are the ones I worry about facing when they are also effective because they will stay on the mound for a long time before they wear themselves out.

Having been around this stuff for a very long time... I have to admit... Not sure if I know the answer for sure. However have formed some opinions!

quote:

Controlled laboratory study

Thirty-three adolescent baseball pitchers with a minimum of 2 years of pitching experience underwent 3-dimensional motion analysis using reflective markers

As expected, speed for the 2 pitches differed: fastball, 65.8 ± 4.8 mph; and curveball, 57.7 ± 6.2 mph

Above is an example of why scientists and medical people shouldn’t be the only ones involved in doing all the studies. BTW, that is going to change real soon and we plan to learn a lot with a new partnership with a group that includes both the best among professional pitching people and the best in the medical field. In fact, that program will start next week at the Metrodome.

The above study shows an "average" velocity difference of 8 mph between the curveball and fastball. I’ve seldom seen a pitcher throw a “true” curveball that was only 8 mph slower than that pitchers fastball. 8 mph difference is slider speed!

Not sure anyone has ever come up with the answer regarding throwing the curveball at a young age.

Here are some things to think about though…

Pitching can be dangerous throwing any pitch and only throwing just that one pitch.

Anytime you add an ingredient to pitching (or a different pitch) it changes what you do and becomes even more dangerous.

For these different pitches to be effective, the mechanics and arm speed have to be very similar.

An argument could be made that a young pitcher might be better off sticking to one pitch (whatever that pitch is) rather than trying to master more than one pitch. Wouldn’t everyone agree that throwing a curveball is more “complicated” than throwing a fastball? That mastering both is harder than mastering one?

Overall, young kids and those coaching them will seldom stick with one pitch. The main reason it doesn’t happen is because with only one pitch “winning” is not as likely! Especially if that one pitch is a fastball without good velocity. This is an area where winning can get in the way of development at the youth level. What do we call the 12 year old who can throw a decent curveball? A "Winner" at the 12 year old level!

In the end, most pitchers are “judged” by their fastball. It is the most important pitch in baseball. It is the most important pitch to master. Fastball mechanics should be where it all starts IMO. Maybe throwing too many different pitches (whatever they are) is a major problem. Common sense tells us mastering two or three things is harder than mastering one thing. Reminds me of the old saying (Jack of all Trades, master of none)Maybe it is a win now thing, rather than about development?

BTW, one more thing… all those who are parents and coaches of young kids and making statements like... "We do it this way and my son or player has never had a sore arm"… Please STOP... That doesn't prove a thing! My son never had a sore arm either at that age or even in high school. Then later came TJ surgery, shoulder surgery, and the end of a career! Most pitchers will end up with a sore arm at some point. Most arms feel just fine at 12 years old! An arm that feels good at 12 years old is nice, but is not proof of anything.

These are just thoughts, please notice that I have not said that throwing a curveball properly is necessarily a bad thing. It’s just that the study (link on RJM’s post) might cause someone to think the safest way to throw is to throw nothing other than curveballs. Even if that were somehow safer, I doubt it is the best for development. Kind of like the safest long jump might be a real short distance. The farther you jump the more likely an injury. What to do? Jump safer or jump farther?

Another interesting perspective PG. Wow, this whole thing can get complicated.

I still think that no matter what you do, someone is going to wind up getting hurt at some point. I really think (based on history) that everyone will get hurt at some point. Glavine did not go on the DL until last year. Now that he did, he's having a hard time coming back. I think all we can do is come up with some general guidelines for what may prolong the inevitable. When a person tries to throw an object as hard as they can for a prolonged period of time, something is going to happen at some point.

I think the best we can do is look to the experts and what they say their research finds and do the best we can to keep a clean conscience that we did what was in the best interest of the young kids.

When I say best interest, I mean finding a balance between working them to be the best they can be and watching out for their safety and health.

As PG has stated before, you can't be the best you can be without pushing the envelope. But you have to be very conscious of where to pull back. That point of pull back should have everything to do with the health and safety of the young athelete and nothing to do with whether or not the team wins that particular game.

PGStaff: I am not sure what kind of research or anecdotal analysis your group has planned but please define the breaking pitch you are talking about and do not lump them all together. Too often researchers do not define what pitch they are talking about.

I cannot figure out why people call the little league curve or slurve a curve at all. The slurve is part slider and part curve and mostly a garbage pitch only effective on the small diamond.

Since the fast ball and curve are identical at the choulder and elbow, why do people continue to rag on the curve? But I will resist repeating my previous post.

I just hope that future research clearly states what it is they are talking about. Condemnation should be loud and strong concerning overuse/abuse.

It's hard to understand many times. This player does all the "correct" things, workouts etc, but gets hurt.

Another player doesn't do any of the workouts and just throws and never gets hurt...

Sometimes it seems random.

I would think that sometimes it's just physical make up of one body vs the next.

I think as a parent of a young player, and as a player getting older, you can try to do the best you can to avoid overuse, use common sense (when doesn't seem so common anymore) , and try to have solid mechanics, and get athletes in good shape, I think all these (and more I'm sure) will help prevent injuries...but as Forrest Gump said "sometimes it happens..."

As expected, speed for the 2 pitches differed: fastball, 65.8 ± 4.8 mph; and curveball, 57.7 ± 6.2 mph

In the case mentioned above they stated fastball and curveball. If they had mentioned slider or slurve or breaking ball, those speed differentials would make more sense. Not very many throw a "true" curveball that averages 8 mph less than their fastball average.

I'm not against throwing curveballs if done correctly. Many college and pro pitchers practice throwing the curveball at a very short distance. I would imagine there are 12 year olds that have very good curveballs. Whether the pitch is thrown 45 feet or 60 feet the mechanics are basically the same. Obviously the pitcher who is developed has a big advantage based on creating more velocity and spin which makes the CB better.

I'm not one to "rag" on the curveball. I don't like young kids throwing "true' sliders or split finger pitches. Yet I have seen this happen. To me that is a different subject. One thing that I think most will agree with... Fastball is the most important pitch in baseball. Everything else comes after that. When I say fastball I do not mean strictly velocity (even though velocity is very important). I mean good fastball mechanics that create the most with the least amount of effort for that individual. For some that will still be a lot of effort. There are max effort pitchers in the Big Leagues. Once a young pitcher can repeat a good solid delivery and command a fastball and use it effectively... then go to the next pitch. For me that pitch would be the changeup.

I agree that overuse/abuse and recovery are by far the biggest concerns. That said, I am not sure when (for an individual) that point changes from development and becomes abuse. Of course, there are the obvious examples of abuse.

Future research needs to involve technique (mechanics) as well as overuse, underuse, recovery time, and anything else that might educate us. We have to first realize there is an awful lot to learn! That will make it easier to learn.

The only good thing about all the arm injuries is that it provides us with more case studies and it makes people more likely to learn from those cases.

Just a thought...

IMO we have way too many who have all the answers and not enough people asking the questions. That needs to be reversed. We need many more who are looking for the answers.

I think there is more than enough research and the answer is that there is no relationship to arm injury due to CBs.
The researchers at UNC told me they could find no direct link to CBs. ASMI has said the same thing.
You also have guys like House who have analyzed the pitching motion using computers and teach the mechanics resulting from those studies.
The problem results when you push the body to its limits and beyond. If you are going to throw a BB and push the limits you have a high probability of arm problems. To reduce the odds you do all the things you can to reduce the odds of injury but you won't eliminate the possibility.

quote:

As expected, speed for the 2 pitches differed: fastball, 65.8 ± 4.8 mph; and curveball, 57.7 ± 6.2 mph

In the case mentioned above they stated fastball and curveball. If they had mentioned slider or slurve or breaking ball, those speed differentials would make more sense. Not very many throw a "true" curveball that averages 8 mph less than their fastball average.

Help me understand something here then. When speaking of mph differential should'nt we really be speaking of "percentage" differential. For instance- My son throws a fastball around 72-74 and his curveball at around 65 and changeup around 65-67. But what I look for is not the mph differential but the percentage differential. A MLB pitcher will throw offspeed pitches around 10-12% slower than their fastball velocity. So, if a pitcher is throwing a 92 mph fastball, theur change is usually in the 82-84mph range. Their curveball will usually be a little less than the change- say at about a 12% difference around 78-81mph. A "slider" will be inbetween the fastabll and curveball velocity- say a 6-8% difference.

As this translates to a 66mph fastball (per study), their curveball should be around 58 if we take off roughly 12% for the normal percentage drop.

Also- help me out with the whole "slurve" thing. I have always maintained that a persons curve should curve according to their arm slot. As pitchers arm slot drop their curve plane changes and they get more down and away movement- say 1-7 or even 2-8 versus the more overhand huys that get closer to a 12-6 break. Based on that what differentiates a slurve from a curve?

Bobblehead,

I respectfully disagree regarding there has been more than enough research. In fact, there is going to be new research that will hopefully help many to improve their chances of staying healthy. ASMI, is involved in that ongoing research and has joined forces with some of the best pitching experts in baseball.

Also regarding the problem being puching the body to the limits. While I would agree with that as a general statement... No pushing at all would be the safest way to keep the arm healthy. Problem is, that won't allow a pitcher to come close to reaching his potential. Somewhere between none and too many must be the answer. It is an answer that is different from one individual to the next. People have come up with general guide lines and suggestions, but the truth is that in all of athletics it's generally those who push themselves the most who end up being the best or at least good enough.

Probably not the greatest analogy, but to me its kind of like weight lifting. How does a person get stronger and lift more weight? In order to reach your potential you need to push your limit. Once you go past your limit, you are likely to hurt yourself. Obviously that limit can not be generalized as a certain weight or number of reps that is the same for everyone. In the end the guy who pushed the most without going too far and hurting himself is the most successful. Along the way his limit became much more than others who were less successful.

At the very least, we have to understand that this is not simple cut and dry stuff. There's more to learn! We must understand that we don't know enough before we can learn more!

The thing that always confuses me is... All the studies are based on one thing... The health or safety of the pitcher. In order to be of more value the studies need to weigh the possibility of reaching the top level of your potential along with the risk of injury.

Takes no research to know the medical field will always advise less as being the safest. The medical field will not recommend pushing the envelope! I sure wouldn't if I were a surgeon.

I know this is off the CB topic a bit, but it is closelty associated IMO.

Let me ask this, just for more discussion... Is it harmful to throw the curveball incorrectly? and does everyone throw or teach throwing the curveball the same way?

gingerbread,

Thanks for bringing that up.

You bring up a good point that I had not considered regarding the percentage of differential. I have to look at our data and see if the average "true" curveball is based on percentage more than plain speed differential. For example if 95 fastball throws a 79 mph curveball, what does 85 fastball average on the curveball.

I think I'll have our guys check that and get back. We do have a very large number of pitchers so it should mean something.

PG,

Is this the "slurve you are referring to?-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...sFRE&feature=related

quote:

Since the fast ball and curve are identical at the choulder and elbow, why do people continue to rag on the curve? But I will resist repeating my previous post.

Maybe it is because the same studies that are quoted here on Curve Balls, also suggest that curve balls not be thrown by players under the age of 13?

I have to agree with earlier post by Gingerbread who, stated kids that are throwing the hardest seem to get injured. I will add to that from my experiance, I have noticed a corelation between the large frame pitchers,(more muscled/weight) hard throwers are the ones who get arm/shoulder injuries.
I am not a doctor (but I do play one on TV) but maybe these kids bones and tendons are not as strong as thier muscles, and can not keep up with the strong force that is being excerted? Who knows.

Actually I didn't mention the "slurve" at all. Anyway Satoh throws a very good curveball at 75 to 78 mph. His fastball reaches low 90s.

We just checked the average of 669 pitchers who threw 90 as top velocity. The average curveball was 74 mph (actually 73.8909). Not a mathematician, but it looks like the CB is 82+% of the peak fastball

We took 895 pitchers who topped out at 75 with their fastball. They averaged 63.8 mph with curveball. Looks like CB averaged 85% of the fastball.

We don't have very many pitchers who topped at 65 mph in our database, but those who did their curveball averaged 57 mph. Or 88+% of their peak fastball.

Oddly enough this was based on just 33 pitchers, somehow exactly the same number the research used.

here are the numbers from the research.

fastball, 65.8 ± 4.8 mph; and curveball, 57.7 ± 6.2 mph

Here are our numbers

fastball 65 mph and curveball 57 mph

OK, so wrong again (what's new) and I stand corrected (by our own database) regarding speed differential. Thanks again gingerbread for bringing that up.

The video clip showed a variety of pitches including at least one ball that moved like a slurve but, since I could not see the rotation, I cannot say that for sure. Here we go on Slurve 101.

The slurve or little league curve is somewhere between a slider with lateral rotation and a curve with vertical rotation. It is created when the forearm is forcefully supinated with the palm moving from the vertical thumb up position to varying degrees of the palm being horizontal, thumb to the outside.

The rotation of this pitch is about 45 degrees and it breaks down and laterally. The forces on the medial elbow growth center are significant and damaging over time.

This pitch is effective on the small diamond with rookie batters whereas the true curve generally is not. Hence the pitcher adapts and adds the, "snapping one off" supination. The true curve is ineffective on the small diamond for two reasons: 1. There is not enough distance to get much drop and, 2. The pre-pubertal kids do not have enough strength to get significant rotation of the ball.

It is rare to see a pitcher like this Japanese fellow use the slurve effectively at MLB distance since it is pretty easy to pickup for a batter. But not so with this fellow who effective threw the following pitches: Fastball. Curve. Slurve. Slider. Screwball (breaks opposite of slider). I did not see him bother with a change. Since his growth centers should be closed none of these pitches are particular adverse to his arm but the stress alone will take its toll sometime in the future as it does with all pitchers.

Strictly from a coaching perspective I would not use the MLB curve until the pitcher hits the full sized diamond. And I would not have to worry about him cheating with the slurve. Stand behnd the backstop or behind the pitcher and look for the rotation. It might take a while to see the rotation but with time you will. A pitch that moves significantly in two planes is a slurve.

A pitcher who masters the 2 seam and 4 seam fast ball and a change up with command and control will be very effective. Why bother with more before the full sized diamond is reached?

An aside: The difference between the curve and the fast ball is at the wrist only. The movement at the shoulder and elbow are the same for both pitches.

Face reality, folks. It is of no consequence whether you allow or do not allow the curve. What really matters is the lunacy of overuse/abuse.

Finally, Gap Finder correctly opined that, "maybe these kids bones and tendons are not as strong as their muscles, and cannot keep up with the strongforce that is being exerted?" That is eactly correct when little league elbow occurs. The growth center is being pulled away from the humerus (bone.

The beautiful thing about the pitcher in the video is how he gets out over the stride leg and how he finishes with his arm passing his thigh. He doesn't stress his shoulder or elbow. He doesn't lock his e;bow after release.
PG good luck on trying to find a solution to preventing arm problems. I think most recognize that there is no answer. The effort is on trying to prevent injury through proper mechanics and conditioning.
The studies that are out there are trying to narrow down what type of pitches have caused injuries. They all start with the premise that CBs cause injury and have been unable to find a link. House was one of the 1st to hook pitchers up to computers with sensors attached to analyze the pitching motion. Knowing the skeletal make up of the human body they are able to minimize the stress on a throwers arm and shoulder. The info is out there and is incorporated by knowledgeable pitching coaches and conditioning programs.

quote:

The video clip showed a variety of pitches including at least one ball that moved like a slurve but, since I could not see the rotation, I cannot say that for sure. Here we go on Slurve 101.

Hum....I only noticed two discernable pitches- the fastball with velocity between 87-91mph and the breaking ball (curve or slurve?) thrown from between 74-78mph.

GBM you had better check your math. 144klms is 86mph his hardest pitch. 117 is 70mph .

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GBM you had better check your math. 144klms is 86mph his hardest pitch. 117 is 70mph .

Hum..., maybe you better check it out again-


http://www.eforecourt.com/mph_kph_speed_convert.htm

His hardest pitch is actually 147 which converts to like 91 mph.

"The effort is on trying to prevent injury through proper mechanics and conditioning."

I believe this is the proper thrust for HS and above. But for pre sdolescent players, the emphasis needs to be on less exposure.

I concur that while kids do not throw enough, they pitch way too much. Throwing strengthens the arm whereas pitching tears it down. The arm needs time to heal and with the insane amount of games, that time is just not available.

Very little has been said about overuse and reducing games played. Passing comments give lip service to the concept of overuse/abuse but not much more. I maintain that if a kid was playing twice a week with a 30 game season you would not need to concern yourself with mechanics, conditioning, and what pitch was thrown.

As travel ball and playing on more than one team increased, so did the surgeries in young kids for arm injuries. Why do people avoid the obvious cause and try to blame tangential issues like conditioning and curve balls? The answer to that question is painfully apparant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBPngh74sLY

More on Satoh. The first part shows the curveball best and it's a very good one. He actually can get up to the mid 90s, throws both curveball and slider and he is very good.

Regarding the first video here is what I got. 4 consecutive sliders, screwball or just an inside fast ball, curve, curve, fast ball, curve, fastball slider, fast ball, curve, curve.

I may have been too generous calling the one a screw ball but the angle was not the best. If he has a screw ball that would make him more awwesome than he is. It isn't the speed so much as the deception keeping them off balance. I did see some fear in some of the batters.

His command and control was impressive.

It was a two seamer.

Daque,

Guess I would have to disagree that the cause is that obvious.

What do you think is the reason that TJ surgery has increased so much in College and professional baseball over that same time frame? It’s not just youth baseball that’s seeing an increase in surgeries.

Then if we take a look at the top young pitchers in the game today, we find they all (for the most part) did exactly what you’re saying the problem is.

Zach Greinke, Chad Billingsley, Rick Porcello, Justin Verlander, Scott Kazmir, Yovanni Gallardo, Nick Adenhart (RIP), Mike Pelfrey, Clayton Kershaw, Chris Volstad, etc.

Just because a pitcher plays on travel teams or goes to showcases doesn’t mean they are being abused. But it sure makes them better pitchers and more attractive to colleges and MLB scouts. Watch next weeks draft… You will see the top high school pitchers that are drafted early. I will bet you that every single one of them plays travel ball of some kind and all have attended showcases.

Once again, one has to decide… Safety or some Risk. The Big Leagues are chuck full of what we might call risk takers! This doesn’t mean these pitchers are stupid and don’t take care of themselves. Lowering the risk is advisable, eliminating the risk is impossible and just doesn’t work for those with high goals.

This debate is as tough as debating religion or politics----it is all about personal choices

It s pretty much accepted that pitching arm damage occurs over time. The kid who was overused pre HS now in HS has a rag arm.

Your question about college injuries is speculative. I would guess that their past is just catching up to them now.

Why do you feel that MLB scouts are looking to the norther climates for pitchers now more than ever before? And taking unknowns like the two guys from India?

I have personally seen the deformed elbows and the elbows with decreased range of motion. Go back 15 years and see how many TJ surgeries were performed on 13 year olds. The HS kis are being drafted early because the college talent has gone down.

Is the risk at the pre HS age group worth the benefits? Let me just say this as a parting comment. There is a lot more evidence to show that overuse is the culprit than there is to say the curve ball is. Which one makes more sense to eliminate?

When I referred to the reason being obvious I was referring to the parents and those adults profiting from these kids. The choice as to why they do what they do to these kids.

A lot of arm stress is simply related to the increased emphasis in the current era on velocity. The harder you throw, the more stress there is on all of your parts. Conditioning can help, but nothing cuts the risk to zero.

You could eliminate the risk and just not play. Heck the best way to make sure you never strike out is to never step in the batters box. Everytime you step on the field you take a risk. Everytime you throw a baseball you take a risk. Hell everytime you step out of bed and strike off for your day you take a risk. To some its worth it. To the ones that never take a risk there is no reward as well.

quote:

It s pretty much accepted that pitching arm damage occurs over time. The kid who was overused pre HS now in HS has a rag arm.

Well in my son's case it happened in one night. 6 innings pitched... an hour and a half rain delay... and then back on the mound... result TJ Surgery!

quote:

Why do you feel that MLB scouts are looking to the norther climates for pitchers now more than ever before? And taking unknowns like the two guys from India?

I have personally seen the deformed elbows and the elbows with decreased range of motion. Go back 15 years and see how many TJ surgeries were performed on 13 year olds. The HS kis are being drafted early because the college talent has gone down.

Daque,

The kids from India was a contest based on reality TV. Not many MLB clubs spending money scouting in India!

Deformed elbows? You have been around much more than me because while I've seen many who have gone through TJ Surgery, I just don't see many disformed elbows. I know someone who has had two surgeries and other than the zipper scar I see nothing that looks "deformed".

Also, go back 15-20 years and see if there were as many TJ surgeries on pitchers of any age.

Keep track of the draft this year. Watch where the top high school picks are from. I'll help you out... The vast majority of the early draft HS pitchers as always will not come from the north. This year a kid from St Louis is likely to be the top Northern pitcher, but he has played for a travel team for several years and he has attended many showcase events.

Watch for these guys... Tyler Matzek (CA), Matt Purke (TX), Zack Wheeler (GA), Shelby Miller )TX), Jacob Turner (MO), Matt Hobgood (CA). Are you saying they would be better off had they been on a team that just plays 30 games a year and that's it?

These pitchers would all be abused by the standards you have mentioned.

BTW, "college" kids dominate the draft these days. More so than ever before! College talent is at an all time high!

quote:

Very little has been said about overuse and reducing games played. Passing comments give lip service to the concept of overuse/abuse but not much more. I maintain that if a kid was playing twice a week with a 30 game season you would not need to concern yourself with mechanics, conditioning, and what pitch was thrown.

There have been hundreds of posts talking about overuse and abuse on here. It's one of this sites most popular subjects. Most everyone here is against it.

The question still remains... what exactly is abuse or overuse? Is it playing on a team that plays more than 30 games a year? Is it 100 pitches in an outing for every pitcher? We are all against "abuse" but we might not agree on what actually is abuse except in extreme cases.

Mechanics and conditioning are things that should always be a concern. I think we all know that overuse and lack of recovery time are serious problems. A much "bigger" problem than throwing a curveball IMO. You are correct on that.

BTW, the number one complaint from pitchers pertaining to showcases is that they don't get to throw enough innings.

In regards to throwing too hard these days, I don't really understand. When I was young we all threw as hard as we could. Did others slack off and save their arm back in the old days? However, I must admit, it seems like more kids throw with high velocity these days. Records are broken in every athletic event. They jump higher, run faster, swim faster, etc. as time goes on. Stands to reason that velocity would also get better. Maybe there is something to the theory that physically the body (arm) can't keep up with this advancement.

Also... Someone mentioned that catching is harder on the arm than pitching.

There have been hundreds of ML pitchers that have had TJ surgery.

To my knowledge there have been only 2 ML catchers that have had TJ surgery.

Guess one would have to say that pitchers are much more likely to have a serious arm injury.

quote:

When I was young we all threw as hard as we could.

Perhaps so. But my recollection (possibly clouded by almost a half century) is that nearly every pitcher on the team, and his dad, thought he was the hardest thrower. So Freddy tried to throw hard, and he was generally pleased with the result: he believed that he was faster than his team mates.

Now with radar guns, Freddy has to admit that he doesn't pitch as fast as Johnny, so maybe Freddy tries even harder to find some speed. And today, Johnny can find out that somebody he has never even seen is undeniably faster yet, so maybe he tries harder than the kids of my era did.

I think it is likely that pitchers today throw closer to or perhaps beyond their bodies' ability to withstand the stress.

Now for a left turn: The above thinking might help explain a higher injury rate among pitchers today, but actually I don't know of any credible evidence that the injury rate is higher now than 50 years ago. Heck, never mind comparing to a previous era, I don't know of any good way to quantify today's injury rate, or even to define just what constitutes a significant injury.

3 finger,
Darn those radar guns. Somehow I lost 10 mph on my fastball the first time I got gunned.

Eventually we all figured out about how hard we threw or didn't throw even without a gun. The game has a way of telling you.

The reality is that kids got hurt back in the 60's and 70's and they just went away. Some got hurt because they were overused. Some got hurt because they threw too many curves. Some got hurt because their arms just couldn't handle their velocity. Some got overused and weren't hurt. Some threw curves and weren't hurt. Some threw hard and weren't hurt. Just like today. All you can do is improve your odds. There are no guarantees.

No gun readings available back then, but in our area everyone knew that Larry Anderson threw the hardest! Do think I was second though!

That WAS nearly half a century ago!

I am with CADad on this. I knew lots of guys whose arms hurt and either quit baseball or moved off of the mound. Late 70's, early 80's, nobody in the youth game got worked on. It wasn't an option. I am pretty sure I played with a torn rotator cuff and a torn up elbow my last two years in HS in both arms due to football but it didn't matter. No way was I going to play after HS except slow pitch softball. I was damaged goods. Most kids just dealt with the pain and threw slower.

We knew that Mike Scott and Mike Colbern threw pretty hard, but we figured they were in the 80s.

We had a bonus baby by the name of McVay who had a great arm back in the 60s. He never made it to the Big Leagues and started playing (not pitching) in town ball.

A couple years later, we were all at the fair and they had a radar gun set up. Something like three throws for a dollar and if you could guess your speed you won a stuffed animal or something.

McVay was very proud of his arm and calmly announced his prediction. 95 MPH, he bragged! His first throw was 70 something! Of course, he complained that the radar was way off. His next two throws were also in the 70s. Lot of snickering among us.

He spent about 20 or 30 bucks trying to throw 80 let alone 90+. I'm pretty sure he had to injure his arm for good that day.

BTW, I'm pretty sure he threw 90+ before going to pro ball. I think velocity leaves in a hurry once you hang it up.