I'll bet it wasn't 75% curves. It probably was a majority of curves. I've never seen a parent underestimate numbers and percentages. I often see them overestimated. It wouldn't bother me if my son threw a majority of curves in any one game. I wouldn't want to see it all season.quote:T-bone played against a kid that threw 96 pitches in a game against his team and 75% of the pitches thrown were curve balls.
Curve balls aren't the culprit to bad arms. Overuse is. When I was young I threw hundreds of pitches over a weekend and threw the curve wrong and didn't have a bad arm. I threw all the time. Yeah, sometimes my arm got sore but it was probably after throwing hundreds of pitches, then shag balls in the outfield and make ridiculously long throws, then I'd have to put the ball down for a couple of days.
Also, not shutting it down for 2-3 months minimum and playing different sports in-season are having kids throw and pitch 12-months out of the year. That's why kids are getting hurt today. Add poor mechanics to the never ending baseball season.
The only bad thing when a kid falls in love with the CB is he forgets about the FB and it never developed right. Varsity hitters will light up a pitcher with an avarage fast ball
Also, not shutting it down for 2-3 months minimum and playing different sports in-season are having kids throw and pitch 12-months out of the year. That's why kids are getting hurt today. Add poor mechanics to the never ending baseball season.
The only bad thing when a kid falls in love with the CB is he forgets about the FB and it never developed right. Varsity hitters will light up a pitcher with an avarage fast ball
quote:Originally posted by RJM:My point is the parents of preteen pitchers don't need to spend money for their kids to learn how to pitch on mini fields. Once in his teens, if the kid is still interested in pitching, then training isn't a bad idea. I believe any kid whose parents are forking over big bucks for training aspires to play high school ball. I've never heard a kid or parent say the goal is to be the best 12U player ever.quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:
What in the world is a HS pitching "prospect?"
What about a parent getting lessons for a kid on the small field to learn mechanics that promote arm health(especially if the kid throws hard) if the parents have no experience in that area?
I'll bet it wasn't 75% curves. It probably was a majority of curves. I've never seen a parent underestimate numbers and percentages. I often see them overestimated. It wouldn't bother me if my son threw a majority of curves in any one game. I wouldn't want to see it all season.quote:
* Everyone prefers to win. Do you have the passion and work ethic to do what it takes to win? *
RJM, I was an assistant coach when this kid was playing with my son's summer league this past summer. I'm probably exagerating some about the curveball ratio, but NOT much. He only threw 2 pitches, curveballs and fastballs. 2 curve balls for every fastball thrown last summer. There wasn't a time when that kid pitched for us that he didn't complain about his arm hurting. We would get him out of there and his Dad would yell at us for trying to protect his arm.Let him pitch a 100 pitches a game the Dad would say. The problem with this kid was he had bad mechanics and you could just see the twisting taking place on his elbow because he never learned how to throw a curveball the proper way. Even after we would try to correct his pitching methods.
Let me clarify that we didn't hire the pitching coach until 14U, on the big field (60'6").
Our club ball top 5 are all pitching varsity baseball at various levels, depending on the school they attend. Some are pitching 5A-1, and we have a stud pitching at 4A-I. we call him 'special' since he doesn't face anything but those poor 4A hitters.
Three of our top 5 have ERA's under 2.00 after 30+ innings of varsity baseball.
I don't think our paid coach has done us a disservice.
Our club ball top 5 are all pitching varsity baseball at various levels, depending on the school they attend. Some are pitching 5A-1, and we have a stud pitching at 4A-I. we call him 'special' since he doesn't face anything but those poor 4A hitters.
Three of our top 5 have ERA's under 2.00 after 30+ innings of varsity baseball.
I don't think our paid coach has done us a disservice.
Tfox,
Physiologically human being learn motor skills better when they have no or less pre-trained Proprioceptive awareness (Neural firing order or muscle memory) to hinder changing mechanics. This means the earlier you get to them the better. The most beneficial lessons I give are to 4,5,6 and 7 year olds because it sets them early correctly rather than trying to retrain a mechanic later plus if the father or mother are there they learn the training regimen so that they can then take over most of the training pretty quickly them selves.
Why would this matter if the kid sees himself as a pitcher, wants to pursue his dreams and wants to have some fun! Let all of them pitch if they want to so it spreads the load until High school. Then it’s the top 6 guys at the lower levels then the top 4 guys at the upper levels.
quote:“What about a parent getting lessons for a kid on the small field to learn mechanics that promote arm health if the parents have no experience in that area?”
Physiologically human being learn motor skills better when they have no or less pre-trained Proprioceptive awareness (Neural firing order or muscle memory) to hinder changing mechanics. This means the earlier you get to them the better. The most beneficial lessons I give are to 4,5,6 and 7 year olds because it sets them early correctly rather than trying to retrain a mechanic later plus if the father or mother are there they learn the training regimen so that they can then take over most of the training pretty quickly them selves.
quote:“(especially if the kid throws hard)”
Why would this matter if the kid sees himself as a pitcher, wants to pursue his dreams and wants to have some fun! Let all of them pitch if they want to so it spreads the load until High school. Then it’s the top 6 guys at the lower levels then the top 4 guys at the upper levels.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I talked to Davidson and he is concerned about his future even though he got picked up.
Joey is doing great.
quote:My point is the parents of preteen pitchers don't need to spend money for their kids to learn how to pitch on mini fields.
RJM, I think you get lessons early so that the pitchers mechanics are sound from an early age. Believe it or not, I agree with Yard on this one. Once certain mechanics are ingrained it is much harder to get them to change them.
If you start early, they will do it correctly from the beginning. My son started taking lessons from when he was around 10. He is currently a 15 yr. old freshman and a starting pitcher for the varsity team. I don't think starting his pitching lessons at an early age hurt him too much.
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
Tfox,quote:“What about a parent getting lessons for a kid on the small field to learn mechanics that promote arm health if the parents have no experience in that area?”
Physiologically human being learn motor skills better when they have no or less pre-trained Proprioceptive awareness (Neural firing order or muscle memory) to hinder changing mechanics. This means the earlier you get to them the better. The most beneficial lessons I give are to 4,5,6 and 7 year olds because it sets them early correctly rather than trying to retrain a mechanic later plus if the father or mother are there they learn the training regimen so that they can then take over most of the training pretty quickly them selves.quote:“(especially if the kid throws hard)”
Why would this matter if the kid sees himself as a pitcher, wants to pursue his dreams and wants to have some fun! Let all of them pitch if they want to so it spreads the load until High school. Then it’s the top 6 guys at the lower levels then the top 4 guys at the upper levels.
I think the point about "especially if the kid throws hard" has to do with several factors..
At a young age especially, if a kid naturally throws the ball hard enough to be dominant, most 'coaches' are going to pitch him...ALOT if he can get outs. Even if the kids mechanics are a trainwreck waiting to happen.
Personally I that early 'training' isn't a bad idea...but I think it's hard for alot of people here to realize that some parents don't know anything about baseball. So if Dad and Mom don't know anything about throwing, much less pitching, then I don't see anything wrong with them LEARNING how to teach their young kid.
Overuse is still the #1 killer of young arms. REGARDLESS of what pitch, or how it's being thrown.
Kids don't JUST THROW enough anymore...between practice, pitching lessons, games, pitching in games etc etc..
Pitching IS NOT the same as throwing.
A correctly thrown curveball isn't harmful. A kid or coach who falls in love with a curve ball may end up effecting the kid developing his FB and other pitches, but unless he's throwing 150 of 'em all the time (which would be just as bad if it was that many Fastballs or CU's being thrown) it's not more harmful than any other pitch.
Any I still think alot of people get ahead of themselves.
"I don't want my 13 year old to throw curves. I want him to save his arm, and develop his FB."
Save his arm for what? The percentages are that most kids won't be playing baseball after High School...so why not let the kids enjoy it.
Most parents / coaches will recognize when a kid has talent / potential to go further by 10th grade or so (in MOST cases)...but I see kids all the time who attended lessons every week, couldn't do this, couldn't do that, all for their "baseball" career...
Most never made HS teams. A few just refused to do it anymore.
The biggest problem with youth baseball?
ADULTS............Coaches and parents alike. Let 'em play.
quote:Originally posted by tfox:
What about a parent getting lessons for a kid on the small field to learn mechanics that promote arm health(especially if the kid throws hard) if the parents have no experience in that area?
tfox - You don't need to ask that question...of course its fine. Developing good mechanics, just for throwing a ball properly, is a good thing and doesn't have to be related to HS ball at all.
I'm sure some parents throw money away, but hey, its their money and I doubt its taking food off their table. Why would anyone care about that?
And for many kids, the "dream" is just to pitch on their LL team...whats wrong with that?
To each his own, but I sure am glad I never looked so far down the road when my kids were 8/9, then 11/12 and so on. HS ball wasn't on our radar screen until they were about 13 or maybe even 14. I think we could have had a lot of unneccesary anxiety if we'd have looked so far ahead.
We just always looked at the season coming up and boy did we have a lot of fun!
Agreed, but I have always had the philosophy there is that age that a teenager goes through in which he doesn't really want to learn the proper mechanics in pitching or hitting because " he already knows it all" good or bad. So,you better teach the proper mechanics when they are listening even if that is at a younger age so the good habits can become "muscle memory". It is harder to teach old dogs new tricks especially when they are not as responsive to constructive criticism.
quote:I don't want my 13 year old to throw curves. I want him to save his arm, and develop his FB."
Save his arm for what? The percentages are that most kids won't be playing baseball after High School...so why not let the kids enjoy it.
Very true, most kids don't play past HS ball. But as a parent, I think it is still your job to protect the health and well being of your child if that means keeping him from throwing a curve ball too soon and keeping him from the operating room for TJ surgery before he makes it out of High School.I believe there is a proper season for everything.
quote:His FB and his velocity got him where he is, so if you think that throwing 90% CB's is a good thing fir development of young pitchers, you are definetly WRONG
quote:His FB and his velocity got him where he is, so if you think that throwing 90% CB's is a good thing fir development of young pitchers, you are definetly WRONG.
TPM any idiot knows that a FB is the most important pitch. You as usual attack with personal junk. You also show your lack of reading my posts and love to get on your soapbox.
A pitcher pitches a very small % of his total throws. Maybe 5-10%. The rest of the time he developes his arm. My son's teams were fanatics about developing his arm. He probably threw more LT etc than your son. He just stalled at aout 82-83 for several yaers. As you know he threw all year round. No one worked harder than he did and no he didn't throw CBs to be a STAR as you put it.
I would love to have you point out where I said not to develope your FB as an important pitch. I can show you where I said you need a FB mixed with a CU and CBs.
I wonder what % a pitcher actually pitches compared to other throwing like Bull Pen and LT. Maybe 5-10%. The rest of the time is spent on developing all your pitches. The pitching days are when you throw what you have developed. That includes all types of pitches especially the FB. If your dream is to play pro ball above MiLB you better have at least 2-3 good ones.
This topic was about CBs and youth pitchers. I hope you get that before you spout off.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I would love to have you point out where I said not to develope your FB as an important pitch.
BHD - this is what you said:
quote:my son threw 90% CBs
By inference, it can be derived that you don't think the fastball is important to develop.
Geez I guess to a Lawyer you could argue that.
I expected that from you. Just waiting for the rest of your group.
I expected that from you. Just waiting for the rest of your group.
quote:Just waiting for the rest of your group.
Who is his "group?" Maybe I wanna join? Is it on Facebook? Can you follow on Twitter? So much tech stuff these days!
Personally, there are aspects to this thread that are causing me to scratch my head. 
Fundamentally, I disagree with the idea of throwing CB's as a 10-12 year old.
I really disagree with it as a concept that the kid isn't likely to play beyond high school so get the most out of that arm at the earliest date. I would like to understand the risk assessment of those types of comments.
But, to me the real issue, beyond the risk of injury, is why?
Of course a kid throwing CB's as a 10-12 year old will get hitters out.
By the time they are 13-15, unless they can command that CB(few can from 60'6") and combine it with another pitch they command, like a FB, they will get less hitters out.
By the time they are 15-17, there has to be even better command of a CB, better command of a FB, or you will have even less success against hitters.
By the time you get to college, pitchers will not succeed by doing what they did as 10-12 year olds.
Even if they can command the CB, when college hitters know that is your out pitch, it becomes the pitch they attack. They see it so many times, they enjoy the AB's. The way pitchers get outs with college hitters is by getting them into pitchers counts and being able to throw a pitch they have not seen in that AB. If it is a hitters count, they need to be able to throw pitchers the hitters do not expect, in places they are not looking.
It isn't little league any longer.
If you want evidence of this, look at Barry Zito. When he was 87-89, his curve ball was considered the best in baseball. When his velocity dropped to 82-83, he couldn't pitch well enough with his curve ball to have success and had 2 pretty miserable years. This year he is back to 87-89 and his CB is back to one of the best in baseball.
Bottom line: success as a 10-12 year old throwing CB's has nothing to do with baseball, even if we leave out the risk of injury. I think we need to be honest here: having your son throw CB's as a 10-12 year old is because you want him to be successful and to win.
Your son will get hitters out by doing that.
Why is that important at ages 10-12? Are you telling them they cannot get hitters out with the FB at the same age, or that you don't think they can??? How do you know they wouldn't have the same success with FB/change up??
Add in the risk of injury and I question why even do this.
Add further the issue of learning how to pitch, and it makes even less sense.
Add the comments that seem to say who cares about the injury risk, they won't be playing beyond high school and, for me at least, there are some pretty puzzling approaches to this issue.
Fundamentally, I disagree with the idea of throwing CB's as a 10-12 year old.
I really disagree with it as a concept that the kid isn't likely to play beyond high school so get the most out of that arm at the earliest date. I would like to understand the risk assessment of those types of comments.
But, to me the real issue, beyond the risk of injury, is why?
Of course a kid throwing CB's as a 10-12 year old will get hitters out.
By the time they are 13-15, unless they can command that CB(few can from 60'6") and combine it with another pitch they command, like a FB, they will get less hitters out.
By the time they are 15-17, there has to be even better command of a CB, better command of a FB, or you will have even less success against hitters.
By the time you get to college, pitchers will not succeed by doing what they did as 10-12 year olds.
Even if they can command the CB, when college hitters know that is your out pitch, it becomes the pitch they attack. They see it so many times, they enjoy the AB's. The way pitchers get outs with college hitters is by getting them into pitchers counts and being able to throw a pitch they have not seen in that AB. If it is a hitters count, they need to be able to throw pitchers the hitters do not expect, in places they are not looking.
It isn't little league any longer.
If you want evidence of this, look at Barry Zito. When he was 87-89, his curve ball was considered the best in baseball. When his velocity dropped to 82-83, he couldn't pitch well enough with his curve ball to have success and had 2 pretty miserable years. This year he is back to 87-89 and his CB is back to one of the best in baseball.
Bottom line: success as a 10-12 year old throwing CB's has nothing to do with baseball, even if we leave out the risk of injury. I think we need to be honest here: having your son throw CB's as a 10-12 year old is because you want him to be successful and to win.
Your son will get hitters out by doing that.
Why is that important at ages 10-12? Are you telling them they cannot get hitters out with the FB at the same age, or that you don't think they can??? How do you know they wouldn't have the same success with FB/change up??
Add in the risk of injury and I question why even do this.
Add further the issue of learning how to pitch, and it makes even less sense.
Add the comments that seem to say who cares about the injury risk, they won't be playing beyond high school and, for me at least, there are some pretty puzzling approaches to this issue.
The study that has been reported, it needs to be noted that, the study had a very small sample and was not mathmatacly a sound study.
The reference to no evidence was found, is misleading since the sample size and the injuries tracked and the types of pitches thrown vary.
Since the author of the study suggest, as do many others people, some who are doctors and some who are not, That youth pitchers wait, until boys start developing a curve ball. The age they suggest to wait until the development of a CB varies.
The reference to no evidence was found, is misleading since the sample size and the injuries tracked and the types of pitches thrown vary.
Since the author of the study suggest, as do many others people, some who are doctors and some who are not, That youth pitchers wait, until boys start developing a curve ball. The age they suggest to wait until the development of a CB varies.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JMoff:
Tyrone Tycise was my son's pitching coach and he was amazing. I fully expect he'll be hired into pro ball sometime soon.[QUOTE]
JMoff I sent you a pm. Thanks.
Tyrone Tycise was my son's pitching coach and he was amazing. I fully expect he'll be hired into pro ball sometime soon.[QUOTE]
JMoff I sent you a pm. Thanks.
Proper throwing mechanics
Proper hitting mechanics
Young kids starting out in the game need to learn two things from the start and start with a solid foundation to build upon. Proper throwing and proper hitting mechanics. Starting to try to get engrained flawed mechanics out of a 14 year old in time for him to be a productive HS player is a daunting task.
Proper hitting mechanics
Young kids starting out in the game need to learn two things from the start and start with a solid foundation to build upon. Proper throwing and proper hitting mechanics. Starting to try to get engrained flawed mechanics out of a 14 year old in time for him to be a productive HS player is a daunting task.
Infield I know 20 pitchers that pitch in college that threw a large % of CBs and are now in or just graduated from college.
Again if you don't work on a few pitches you will struggle at higher levels.
RJ Swindle is a ML pitcher who has phenominal stats, an 80 mph FB and amazing CBs. Note that is plral CBs. Yes he has struggled to stay in the majors because he dosen't have a plus FB but that may be all the gas he has.
A 90+ FB will get you more opportunities but the % of success even with that is very small. A friend who had a great FB just got released after 2 years in the minors. He was drafted on his FB even though he stuggled in local elite ball here. Another guy I know who played 2 years in the states and came back to a local college was hitting 94-95. I was with his mom when he was signed at was noticed at a MLB camp. He had a terrible record here.
Another guy I know was in the mid 90s and played D1 over in Buffalo. He had a 2-9 record and was signed. He actually played with RZ1s son in Staten Island. Not sure where he is now.
Velocity is big if you want to get drafted.
Not sure why you guys keep saying things like use your arm up. If you want to use up an arm , throw too many FBs. All my son's coaches wanted the players to succeed. It was good for their business. I know our coaches were knowledgeable coaches and knew the facts about CBs, over pitching etc.
Again if you don't work on a few pitches you will struggle at higher levels.
RJ Swindle is a ML pitcher who has phenominal stats, an 80 mph FB and amazing CBs. Note that is plral CBs. Yes he has struggled to stay in the majors because he dosen't have a plus FB but that may be all the gas he has.
A 90+ FB will get you more opportunities but the % of success even with that is very small. A friend who had a great FB just got released after 2 years in the minors. He was drafted on his FB even though he stuggled in local elite ball here. Another guy I know who played 2 years in the states and came back to a local college was hitting 94-95. I was with his mom when he was signed at was noticed at a MLB camp. He had a terrible record here.
Another guy I know was in the mid 90s and played D1 over in Buffalo. He had a 2-9 record and was signed. He actually played with RZ1s son in Staten Island. Not sure where he is now.
Velocity is big if you want to get drafted.
Not sure why you guys keep saying things like use your arm up. If you want to use up an arm , throw too many FBs. All my son's coaches wanted the players to succeed. It was good for their business. I know our coaches were knowledgeable coaches and knew the facts about CBs, over pitching etc.
BHD,
You are the one talking 90 plus, not me.
We both know that isn't needed. I don't know why you bring that in when it isn't part of the discussion about cb's vs learning to pitch and getting guys out.
Even though I disagree, I am leaving out the injury risk issue.
My post was about learning and knowing how to pitch. How to command pitches.
The toughest pitcher my son ever saw, including Randy Johnson, was Eric Hurley. It wasn't his 91-92mph or his cb. It was his 78-80mph change that came out of his hand and delivery looking exactly like his FB.
Jamie Moyer has said it is his ability to change speeds by greater than 10mph and command pitches that makes him successful. If his change isn't more than 10mph slower than his FB, he gets hit. When it is, he doesn't.
Plenty of guys succeed in college and beyond who are 87-89. They do it with a 4 seam, a 2 seam, both of which they can command in any count, a change up and a curveball, all of which they can command in any count.
I used Zito as an example. He is a two pitch guy now trying to develop a change up.
At 83, he cannot get guys out.
At 87-89, as I said before, his curveball becomes weapon when he can command it and hitters cannot look for it.
As I said before, any 10-12 year old gets hitters out with a CB. So what????? If you throw 90% cb's as a 12 year old, you get more hitters out.
You throw 90% cb's to college and Milb hitters, and you don't get many outs. Hitters like it though!!
Wouldn't we both agree that the measure of a successful pitcher/hitter/player is on a regulation field against top competition like you see from ages 16 and up???
What is important in baseball about throwing cb's as a 12 year old. What does it prove???
You are the one talking 90 plus, not me.
We both know that isn't needed. I don't know why you bring that in when it isn't part of the discussion about cb's vs learning to pitch and getting guys out.
Even though I disagree, I am leaving out the injury risk issue.
My post was about learning and knowing how to pitch. How to command pitches.
The toughest pitcher my son ever saw, including Randy Johnson, was Eric Hurley. It wasn't his 91-92mph or his cb. It was his 78-80mph change that came out of his hand and delivery looking exactly like his FB.
Jamie Moyer has said it is his ability to change speeds by greater than 10mph and command pitches that makes him successful. If his change isn't more than 10mph slower than his FB, he gets hit. When it is, he doesn't.
Plenty of guys succeed in college and beyond who are 87-89. They do it with a 4 seam, a 2 seam, both of which they can command in any count, a change up and a curveball, all of which they can command in any count.
I used Zito as an example. He is a two pitch guy now trying to develop a change up.
At 83, he cannot get guys out.
At 87-89, as I said before, his curveball becomes weapon when he can command it and hitters cannot look for it.
As I said before, any 10-12 year old gets hitters out with a CB. So what????? If you throw 90% cb's as a 12 year old, you get more hitters out.
You throw 90% cb's to college and Milb hitters, and you don't get many outs. Hitters like it though!!
Wouldn't we both agree that the measure of a successful pitcher/hitter/player is on a regulation field against top competition like you see from ages 16 and up???
What is important in baseball about throwing cb's as a 12 year old. What does it prove???
I think we're getting into two different arguments here. One is whether or not a curveball is bad for your arm as a pre-teen pitcher. The other is what types of pitches are effective against college and pro hitters.
I personally don't think there is anything wrong with throwing a curveball at the younger ages as long as you are doing it right and as long as you don't do it at the expense of working on your fastball and change up.
As long as you do the above, you won't have a problem with the second point in question.
My son is just in HS, but he threw the CB at a younger age. He also worked on and mastered his fastball and changeup. As an example, he pitched a varsity game against the #3 team in the state. Lost 1-0, but threw a complete game, 6 innings, 71 pitches and threw 3 curves. Everything else was FB/CU. Threw another complete game, 7 innings, 67 pitches and threw maybe 5 or 6 curves. Just because he threw the curve at a preteen age, does not mean that he didn't work on his other pitches.
I think we should try to keep the issues separate. Are curve balls bad for the younger kids? (My opinion - no) Should the curve be used at the expense of developing the FB and CU? (absolutely not)
I personally don't think there is anything wrong with throwing a curveball at the younger ages as long as you are doing it right and as long as you don't do it at the expense of working on your fastball and change up.
As long as you do the above, you won't have a problem with the second point in question.
My son is just in HS, but he threw the CB at a younger age. He also worked on and mastered his fastball and changeup. As an example, he pitched a varsity game against the #3 team in the state. Lost 1-0, but threw a complete game, 6 innings, 71 pitches and threw 3 curves. Everything else was FB/CU. Threw another complete game, 7 innings, 67 pitches and threw maybe 5 or 6 curves. Just because he threw the curve at a preteen age, does not mean that he didn't work on his other pitches.
I think we should try to keep the issues separate. Are curve balls bad for the younger kids? (My opinion - no) Should the curve be used at the expense of developing the FB and CU? (absolutely not)
PG Staff: Thanks for the compliment. As to the swine flu, I have not heard of any cases. The schools have been closed since Easter vacation. Another factor is the large population of retirees and that age group seems to be sporting immunity. So I guess the press will have to resumee stirring the bucket about drug violence which is also absent here. Guadalajara, which is about 25 miles to the north of us has had a little of both but not the street shooting like up north. In any event, there are more killings in the US than in Mexico and that is one of the reasons I am here. If I were there I would be more concerned about nuclear winter than I would be with global warmig. Cheers.
quote:Are curve balls bad for the younger kids? (My opinion - no)
Is the answer the same if the 10-14 year old is in the middle of a growth phase where their joints and growth plates are changing?
http://www.choa.org/default.aspx?id=1461
BTW, I don't think the "issues" are separate. If they were, I don't see the need to post about what happened in your son's HS game. It seems to me the cb at a younger age question/risk is being offered to support the idea it helps develop pitchers to be successful over time into HS and beyond.
They are separate. Like I said, one issue is whether or not the CB is injurious. One is really whether or not you should do it because the main focus should be the FB and CU.
My point with my son was that he threw the CB early AND, he did not do it at the expense of his FB and CU. I gave evidence that he is not dependent on his CB and he is obviously proficient with his FB and CU despite having used the CB at an earlier age.
The article you referenced talked about LL elbow. The entire article talked about LL elbow being there as the result of throwing in general. It also talked of overuse and not enough rest. As a recomendation it basically said that the curveball can be dangerous if thrown incorrectly. One of my biggest points here was that it must be thrown correctly if it is going to be thrown.
My point with my son was that he threw the CB early AND, he did not do it at the expense of his FB and CU. I gave evidence that he is not dependent on his CB and he is obviously proficient with his FB and CU despite having used the CB at an earlier age.
The article you referenced talked about LL elbow. The entire article talked about LL elbow being there as the result of throwing in general. It also talked of overuse and not enough rest. As a recomendation it basically said that the curveball can be dangerous if thrown incorrectly. One of my biggest points here was that it must be thrown correctly if it is going to be thrown.
As I read section in the article on not thowing cb's before age 14, it indicates that because of the size of a child's hand, it is nearly impossible to throw the cb correctly.
Because the hand of most kids 14 and under are small, torque is required on the wrist/elbow placing increased stress on the growth plate. To me, that is a risk.
While I appreciate those who say their son throws it properly, I wonder.
Having had a son who didn't throw cb's and still had a growth plate issue, I tend to err on the side of caution and eliminate whatever risk I can recommend to other parents.To my reading, this article identifies cb's as a risk of growth plate injury. It explains why and it explains why it isn't very controllable by coaches, good coaching and the like...it is related to hand size.
In terms of "them" being two separate issues, I am not understanding when there is then the reference to your son and the success he is having in high school.
I'm sorry but I am reading your comments to say that your son learning to throw the cb when he was young helped his development as a pitcher and his success at this level.
If I am reading this wrong, I apologize.
If this isn't about development, then it would seem to me it is all about throwing cb's in little league for the purpose of winning in little league. If that is all this thread is about, then parents can read articles of the type I have posted saying they are a risk and why and determine how important it is to get hitters out when kids are 12.
The point I think is important is that throwing cb's is not without medical risks that have been identified and are easily understood.
BTW, good luck to your son. He sounds very talented.
Because the hand of most kids 14 and under are small, torque is required on the wrist/elbow placing increased stress on the growth plate. To me, that is a risk.
While I appreciate those who say their son throws it properly, I wonder.
Having had a son who didn't throw cb's and still had a growth plate issue, I tend to err on the side of caution and eliminate whatever risk I can recommend to other parents.To my reading, this article identifies cb's as a risk of growth plate injury. It explains why and it explains why it isn't very controllable by coaches, good coaching and the like...it is related to hand size.
In terms of "them" being two separate issues, I am not understanding when there is then the reference to your son and the success he is having in high school.
I'm sorry but I am reading your comments to say that your son learning to throw the cb when he was young helped his development as a pitcher and his success at this level.
If I am reading this wrong, I apologize.
If this isn't about development, then it would seem to me it is all about throwing cb's in little league for the purpose of winning in little league. If that is all this thread is about, then parents can read articles of the type I have posted saying they are a risk and why and determine how important it is to get hitters out when kids are 12.
The point I think is important is that throwing cb's is not without medical risks that have been identified and are easily understood.
BTW, good luck to your son. He sounds very talented.
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
Tfox,quote:“What about a parent getting lessons for a kid on the small field to learn mechanics that promote arm health if the parents have no experience in that area?”
Physiologically human being learn motor skills better when they have no or less pre-trained Proprioceptive awareness (Neural firing order or muscle memory) to hinder changing mechanics. This means the earlier you get to them the better. The most beneficial lessons I give are to 4,5,6 and 7 year olds because it sets them early correctly rather than trying to retrain a mechanic later plus if the father or mother are there they learn the training regimen so that they can then take over most of the training pretty quickly them selves.quote:“(especially if the kid throws hard)”
Why would this matter if the kid sees himself as a pitcher, wants to pursue his dreams and wants to have some fun! Let all of them pitch if they want to so it spreads the load until High school. Then it’s the top 6 guys at the lower levels then the top 4 guys at the upper levels.
Wouldn't it be true that if a kid throws hard but does it incorrectly,the higher the likleyhood of permanent damage?
That was the point of the reference.
I actually have a 10 year old that throws well and hard but I doubt he will pursue pitching.He probably will just because of his naturall ability and coaches will ask him to do it but at this point,I am not sure if he cares about pitching later on.I know he cares about playing centerfield though.
There is no need to teach the curve early as it is a simple pitch to learn but more difficult to master. The more rotational velocity, the more effective. Strengthen the arm with weights and by throwing (not pitching).
While I concur that poor technique can add to the potential for injury, overuse is the main culprit. Without overuse technique problems pale.
How many of you believe that the changes in pitching from the windup to pitching from the set will take a long time to learn? At the point of release both pitches are the same. If you throw a fast ball correctly it is a very small step to throwing a curve correctly.
Pitching lessons before showing proficiency on the full sized diamond is a waste of time and money. And for da**ed sure it is ridiculous at 4 through 6 years of age. Teaching the curve before it is effective on the full sized diamond is a waste of time and money. The curve is simple to learn and to teach.
Professional scouts don't give a tinker's dam about your curve, They are looking for your fast ball. That is because they know they can teach you the curve PDQ.
If it was not for the ridiculous over use and never ending seasons technique would never be an issue and sore arms would be a rarity. All of this prattle has to do with finding a way to protect kids while allowing them to be placed in harm's way by parents and coaches. Lunacy.
While I concur that poor technique can add to the potential for injury, overuse is the main culprit. Without overuse technique problems pale.
How many of you believe that the changes in pitching from the windup to pitching from the set will take a long time to learn? At the point of release both pitches are the same. If you throw a fast ball correctly it is a very small step to throwing a curve correctly.
Pitching lessons before showing proficiency on the full sized diamond is a waste of time and money. And for da**ed sure it is ridiculous at 4 through 6 years of age. Teaching the curve before it is effective on the full sized diamond is a waste of time and money. The curve is simple to learn and to teach.
Professional scouts don't give a tinker's dam about your curve, They are looking for your fast ball. That is because they know they can teach you the curve PDQ.
If it was not for the ridiculous over use and never ending seasons technique would never be an issue and sore arms would be a rarity. All of this prattle has to do with finding a way to protect kids while allowing them to be placed in harm's way by parents and coaches. Lunacy.
Infielddad. Sorry if I wasn't clear. What I was trying to say was in the above mentioned games, he threw very few curve balls. His effectiveness was with his FB and CU. Point being, that throwing a CB earlier did not detract him from working on his FB & CU. I made that point because so many people have made the point that you shouldn't throw a CB at an earlier age because you should focus on the FB & CU. Those are the pithces that will get you to the next level. Hope that makes more sense.
Before my son threw a CB in a game, I had a number of baseball people look at him throw the pitch and give their nod of approval. All of them knew the concept of "turning the doorknob" issue with throwing a curve. Essentially, that is what we are talking about. When a pitcher relies on snapping the wrist and elbow to get the spin on the ball, he is doing it wrong. I taught my son to change his grip and throw the pitch just like his fastball. That is what he did and he got enough spin on the ball to get it to break. Like I said, he did not throw it in a game until I got the go ahead from numerous people/coaches/instructors who knew what they were talking about.
Anyway, I hope that clarifies the issue a little. If not, I'll gladly take the reference off the post if it is not applicable.
Before my son threw a CB in a game, I had a number of baseball people look at him throw the pitch and give their nod of approval. All of them knew the concept of "turning the doorknob" issue with throwing a curve. Essentially, that is what we are talking about. When a pitcher relies on snapping the wrist and elbow to get the spin on the ball, he is doing it wrong. I taught my son to change his grip and throw the pitch just like his fastball. That is what he did and he got enough spin on the ball to get it to break. Like I said, he did not throw it in a game until I got the go ahead from numerous people/coaches/instructors who knew what they were talking about.
Anyway, I hope that clarifies the issue a little. If not, I'll gladly take the reference off the post if it is not applicable.
bballman,
I think the discussion is great. We obviously have different views on the topic. From where I sit, the important aspect is providing parents of 10-12 year olds and those soon to be 10-12 some views on this issue that will cause them to think carefully and take cautions.
Whether they take the cautions I might propose and not throw cb's at all, or the cautions you have described which are clearly significant and important, I think having agreement on the message of taking cautions is a nice result.
I appreciate the discussion and learning how you approached the issue with your son.
I think the discussion is great. We obviously have different views on the topic. From where I sit, the important aspect is providing parents of 10-12 year olds and those soon to be 10-12 some views on this issue that will cause them to think carefully and take cautions.
Whether they take the cautions I might propose and not throw cb's at all, or the cautions you have described which are clearly significant and important, I think having agreement on the message of taking cautions is a nice result.
I appreciate the discussion and learning how you approached the issue with your son.
It's all good infielddad. A healthy discussion of the issues will do nothing but help each other by really thinking through our own views and helping others by seeing different sides to the same coin. Keep it coming. I think we're all on the same side in the end.
quote:Personally, there are aspects to this thread that are causing me to scratch my head.
Fundamentally, I disagree with the idea of throwing CB's as a 10-12 year old.
Why "fundamentally"? If a kid is also working on a FB, and a CU, and developing those as well...why not the curve ball too?
If he's learned to throw the curve correctly, why not?
quote:I really disagree with it as a concept that the kid isn't likely to play beyond high school so get the most out of that arm at the earliest date. I would like to understand the risk assessment of those types of comments.
If you are referring to my post, that is NOT what I posted. If a kid at 10-18 is NOT pitching TOO MUCH (regardless of what pitches he's throwing) why not let him experiment (correctly supervised) and have some fun. If you think you can stop a kid from throwing a curveball just because you told him not too....well I hope you watch over him ALL the time. Good pitchers, regardless of age, EXPERIMENT on their own.
quote:But, to me the real issue, beyond the risk of injury, is why?
Maybe because it's a GAME. And being able to throw a GOOD curve ball as a pitcher, is FUN.
quote:Of course a kid throwing CB's as a 10-12 year old will get hitters out.
By the time they are 13-15, unless they can command that CB(few can from 60'6") and combine it with another pitch they command, like a FB, they will get less hitters out.
You have the link to the study that you got that "few" figure from when talking about being able to control a good curve from 60'6"? Was that a small sampling? And who mentioned they couldn't command another pitch? No one here is saying "throw all curve balls..just curve balls, you'll be great.."
quote:By the time they are 15-17, there has to be even better command of a CB, better command of a FB, or you will have even less success against hitters.
By the time you get to college, pitchers will not succeed by doing what they did as 10-12 year olds.
Well hitters must have gotten alot better at 15-18 years old than they were when I was playing. I know more than a few guys who probably could have played pro ball (or higher in pro ball) if they COULD hit a QUALITY curve ball. Any kid that is playing HS Varsity can hit a FB........how many can hit a GOOD curve ball?
quote:Even if they can command the CB, when college hitters know that is your out pitch, it becomes the pitch they attack. They see it so many times, they enjoy the AB's. The way pitchers get outs with college hitters is by getting them into pitchers counts and being able to throw a pitch they have not seen in that AB. If it is a hitters count, they need to be able to throw pitchers the hitters do not expect, in places they are not looking.
They "attack" it? Alot of college players must be future MLB hitters. I don't see alot of hitters being successful against GOOD curve balls. And who said that was the "out" pitch. you can't have a good curve and still have a good FB, CU, or even more pitches than that?
quote:If you want evidence of this, look at Barry Zito. When he was 87-89, his curve ball was considered the best in baseball. When his velocity dropped to 82-83, he couldn't pitch well enough with his curve ball to have success and had 2 pretty miserable years. This year he is back to 87-89 and his CB is back to one of the best in baseball.
So you don't think that that big drop velocity also effected his curve ball? So his FB dropped in velo but his curve didn't?
quote:Bottom line: success as a 10-12 year old throwing CB's has nothing to do with baseball, even if we leave out the risk of injury. I think we need to be honest here: having your son throw CB's as a 10-12 year old is because you want him to be successful and to win.
Now you're reaching. Don't stereotype or generalize OTHER kid's parents. Sure that does exist. But just because you don't want to teach a 10-12 year old a CORRECTLY thrown curve ball, don't criticize those who do. And who doesn't want their 10-99 year old to be SUCCESSFUL AND WIN? Whether it's baseball, football, s****r, tiddly winks, band or video games?
quote:Why is that important at ages 10-12? Are you telling them they cannot get hitters out with the FB at the same age, or that you don't think they can??? How do you know they wouldn't have the same success with FB/change up??
nobody said they couldn't. You assumed that.
Show me ONE KID who hurt his arm throwing curve balls..who wasn't OVERUSED, and who was throwing it correctly.
I taught my 12 year old kid a curve at 10...we practiced it. He started using it in games last year. He's confident enough in the curve ball to be able to throw it in ANY count for strikes a majority of the time. He also throws a 2 seam FB, a 4 seam FB, a CU, and a knuckle. That makes me a "win at all cost, I don't care if you get hurt, keep striking them out" parent right? Even though I limit his AMOUNT of pitching? Even though I've taught him to OUT THINK the hitters, not over power them (no matter the pitch)?
He's learned at 12, that once the other team KNOWS he has a good breaking pitch, that's almost as effective as the pitch itself. You don't need to throw it. You just need to make WORRY about it.
He gets more strikeouts on the FB...because the hitter is thinking CURVEBALL at 0-2, 1-2 etc...
Same reason most of his strikeouts on 2-2 and 3-2 counts are off speed pitches because hitters EXPECT a grooved FB.
I can tell you this...there is a local coach who makes it a point to tell his parents and other coaches that he doesn't let his pitchers throw any breaking pitches before they are 15 years old. FB, CU only.
Guess what happens when the kids on the other teams find out they can't throw any breaking pitches? They get shelled.
On the other hand, there is a kid I know how throws unbelieveable gas for a 12 year old. He'll throw HARD the first inning. And after that he can ease up, throw a CB, a CU, a knuckle ball....he only has to throw that HEAT every now and then. Because the hitters get focused on how hard he throws.
BBMAN you nailed what I was saying.
Yes 2 arguments going on. My commenents were directed more at TPM who infered that my son was struggling because he only developed the CB. He was a complete pitcher and proved it in his 1st 2 college years. He proved it against Florida State, Usc Gamecocks, College of Charleston and several others. The 1st 33 inninjgs of his soph year he had an OBa under 200 and an ERA just over 2.
Personally I am scratching my head as to how he could take such a major down turn. I had him back on track the 1st few games this season after spending 15 mins with him in the summer. 1st game he threw 5 ,1 hit innings. He threw 4 innings against the Gamecocks giving up3 runs but holding them scoreless in the 1st for the 1st time in the season and they were 12-0. He then threw 5, 2 hit scoreless innings against the Citadel. I think he can pitch at D1 level. Unfortunately he has drifted back to his bad habits.
As a 16yo he was followed by thye Jays, Tampa and has had the Red Sox looking at him lately. He doesn't see a future for himself in Pro ball. He just made the Deans List and wants to find a job rather than waste time chasing what he knows is a big stretch.
Yes 2 arguments going on. My commenents were directed more at TPM who infered that my son was struggling because he only developed the CB. He was a complete pitcher and proved it in his 1st 2 college years. He proved it against Florida State, Usc Gamecocks, College of Charleston and several others. The 1st 33 inninjgs of his soph year he had an OBa under 200 and an ERA just over 2.
Personally I am scratching my head as to how he could take such a major down turn. I had him back on track the 1st few games this season after spending 15 mins with him in the summer. 1st game he threw 5 ,1 hit innings. He threw 4 innings against the Gamecocks giving up3 runs but holding them scoreless in the 1st for the 1st time in the season and they were 12-0. He then threw 5, 2 hit scoreless innings against the Citadel. I think he can pitch at D1 level. Unfortunately he has drifted back to his bad habits.
As a 16yo he was followed by thye Jays, Tampa and has had the Red Sox looking at him lately. He doesn't see a future for himself in Pro ball. He just made the Deans List and wants to find a job rather than waste time chasing what he knows is a big stretch.
Thanks for expressing your views. Sounds like your son is doing really well in his 12 year old year. I hope it continues.
For me, I guess I came to those observations from watching 1000's of games through high school, college, Summer Wood bat league and Milb games, talking baseball with my son, his college and Milb teammates, their friends, his high school and college coaches, other college coaches and many, many others along the way, and for the last two years with my son who is now just completing his second year of coaching.
I have some sense of what I knew about baseball when he was 12 and I was a coach.
I am pretty confident I would not have made my comments and those posts when he was 12.
I went back and read them again after reading your views based on the experience since he was 12.
Yup, I am pretty comfortable with what I posted.
For me, I guess I came to those observations from watching 1000's of games through high school, college, Summer Wood bat league and Milb games, talking baseball with my son, his college and Milb teammates, their friends, his high school and college coaches, other college coaches and many, many others along the way, and for the last two years with my son who is now just completing his second year of coaching.
I have some sense of what I knew about baseball when he was 12 and I was a coach.
I am pretty confident I would not have made my comments and those posts when he was 12.
I went back and read them again after reading your views based on the experience since he was 12.
Yup, I am pretty comfortable with what I posted.
quote:Originally posted by ctandc:
The biggest problem with youth baseball?
Parents of 12-year olds who think they already have all of the answers.
I just got back from a ball game and it is great to see people having a great discussion.
BHD,
It comes to an end for all of our sons at some point.
The pride you have in your son is so obvious. The fact you helped him have a love and passion for the game, along with success, is all I think you can do.
I would like to change the way it ended for our son, but I can't.
We don't agree on some things on this board.
I sure do agree I see the passion and feelings in your last post.
I am not about to disagree with your looking back and cherishing the journey.
It comes to an end for all of our sons at some point.
The pride you have in your son is so obvious. The fact you helped him have a love and passion for the game, along with success, is all I think you can do.
I would like to change the way it ended for our son, but I can't.
We don't agree on some things on this board.
I sure do agree I see the passion and feelings in your last post.
I am not about to disagree with your looking back and cherishing the journey.
quote:Originally posted by Daque:
There is no need to teach the curve early as it is a simple pitch to learn but more difficult to master. The more rotational velocity, the more effective. Strengthen the arm with weights and by throwing (not pitching).
While I concur that poor technique can add to the potential for injury, overuse is the main culprit. Without overuse technique problems pale.
How many of you believe that the changes in pitching from the windup to pitching from the set will take a long time to learn? At the point of release both pitches are the same. If you throw a fast ball correctly it is a very small step to throwing a curve correctly.
Pitching lessons before showing proficiency on the full sized diamond is a waste of time and money. And for da**ed sure it is ridiculous at 4 through 6 years of age. Teaching the curve before it is effective on the full sized diamond is a waste of time and money. The curve is simple to learn and to teach.
Professional scouts don't give a tinker's dam about your curve, They are looking for your fast ball. That is because they know they can teach you the curve PDQ.
If it was not for the ridiculous over use and never ending seasons technique would never be an issue and sore arms would be a rarity. All of this prattle has to do with finding a way to protect kids while allowing them to be placed in harm's way by parents and coaches. Lunacy.
Great stuff Daque. Also good stuff from Infielddad.
Are CB more dangerous? Yup, IMO, because young pitchers throwing more CB often have success, which leads to overuse (let's use little Johnny more often he's a winner), the same as hard throwers being more dominant when younger (again let's use Johnny more often he is a winner).
Throwing 80-90% CB, IMO, is not learning how to pitch, but just about winning. The more you win, the more you play. The more you are overused.
The whole thing is about learning how to be a pitcher, not a thrower. When to learn which pitch in waht coutm you can't do that suing CB's 90% of teh time, sorry.
For every person that claims that CB's are safe if taught properly and a very young age, you will get another saying it is not. This is about sommon sense, pertaining to your player and what is right or wrong for them. Some people just won't take chances when a body is still growing.
BHD,
I'll bet your son threw more, pitched more (you often stated that he played several teams at one time) and obviously threw more breaking stuff, but not sure what that has to do with it.
I'll even bet he was a better pitcher too in LL.
Yes, you did say your son threw 90% CB when younger, and never had a hurt arm. That inference is that, "it's ok to throw a lot of CB when young".
Everyone is different, every situation is different, don't make it seem like it is ok, perhaps for your player, not for everyone.
Infield none of us knew anything without investigating. BB was not my first love, football was. I had to learn most of what I know. I did pitvh BB and fast ball.
I had to get info from several sources just like many others here. We did have access to MLB,MiLB, College ball etc and I can tell you there aren't many who have seen more games at all levels than I have.
Your son was with the Jays who had a MiL team in our city. Pirates had one 12 miles away, 3 D1s 30 ins away aswell as several JCs. I watch up close to hundreds of MiLB pitchers go through here as well as Jays rehab guys like Carpenter Henke and many others. I also was there when they practiced and taught the island guys english. It was a great time for me and my son. I usede to have tons of rookie shots of several pitchers and guys like Delgado, Wells and many others. My firend was their official photographer. We were invited to all the team parties and son was told to bring his glove and ball.
You once gave me that I had legit experience. Not sure why I have to keep repeating it.
I personally knew Kevin Briad head of Jays player development and speacial events from when they scouted my son.
I had to get info from several sources just like many others here. We did have access to MLB,MiLB, College ball etc and I can tell you there aren't many who have seen more games at all levels than I have.
Your son was with the Jays who had a MiL team in our city. Pirates had one 12 miles away, 3 D1s 30 ins away aswell as several JCs. I watch up close to hundreds of MiLB pitchers go through here as well as Jays rehab guys like Carpenter Henke and many others. I also was there when they practiced and taught the island guys english. It was a great time for me and my son. I usede to have tons of rookie shots of several pitchers and guys like Delgado, Wells and many others. My firend was their official photographer. We were invited to all the team parties and son was told to bring his glove and ball.
You once gave me that I had legit experience. Not sure why I have to keep repeating it.
I personally knew Kevin Briad head of Jays player development and speacial events from when they scouted my son.