Curveballs

Don't mean to be an antagonizer, but now we have a third issue:

quote:

Are CB more dangerous? Yup, IMO, because young pitchers throwing more CB often have success, which leads to overuse (let's use little Johnny more often he's a winner), the same as hard throwers being more dominant when younger (again let's use Johnny more often he is a winner).

Overuse is overuse. Coaches and parents need to be mindful of overuse regardless of what pitches a kid throws. Following that line of thinking, you could say that a kid who throws harder than most his age shouldn't throw the fastball because he will be overused.

Separate issue. Do not overuse the kids. Do not pitch them past the point of fatigue and make sure they get plenty of rest between outings.

quote:

Are CB more dangerous? Yup, IMO, because young pitchers throwing more CB often have success, which leads to overuse (let's use little Johnny

Yes he did play for 3-4 teams a season when he was 15-17. HS, triple aaa OBA, 18U District All stars and an Elite team. I told you he was the poster boy for over use.
He also was examined 2 times a season by Dr John Gleddie or as need if he had any isuues. He only had 1 issue and that was a strained Ulnar due to cooling down on a brutal day in a spring tournament. I also mentioned he pulled himself in the middle of an outstandin game in the 5th. 10 Ks in 4 innings. That performance and the perfect game he threw got him recommended to Cam Walker at Indian Hills by the tournament organizer. It was 18U.
All I am saying is thatCBs are safe if thrown properly. They are less stressful than FBs according to my son.
You tried to dump on my son because he is struggling and it has nothing to do with his reliance on CBs. You can dump on little Johnny all you like. Note than in the fresh and soph years he used his CB and the JR year the coach relied on FBs. Several pitchers were upset with that; The 1st 2 years he gave up 2 HRs and 4 doubles. The last 2 he was giving them up like they were going out of style. Also the first few games this year he was using his CB and for some reason the coach stopped calling for it. As I said I commented on the fact no announcers were mentioning his breaking balls . That is when he told me. In his soph year he had 10 pickoffs/caught stealings and none in his JR year. A bi product of poor mechanics.

Infield thankyou. I know how hurt you are about your son's injury.
For me it has always been about the education and experience. I am actually not upset about BB ending at all. I was always a fierce competitor in sports and I was hoping the team would have a better season and that my son would get back to where he was in his soph year. His fiances father tells her he was a great pitcher until she showed up. She worries that I might blame her but I told her she is far more important than any old college BB game.
I just paid #360 to extend his visa so he can work in Charleston. What a great city and wonderful people. We may never get him back.
I have 3 daughters. 1 in British Columbia, 1 in Whitehorse and 1 just moved to Germany. Thank god for skype video calls. In all of this I am wondering what we did wrong ?

BHD,
I was never upset about the injury.
When they play as hard as mine did, and play 40 straight Milb games in 42 days, injury is a risk. He isn't the first in Milb and surely won't be the last.
Do I wish he had received better, more timely and focused medical care? Absolutely I do. But, it is a great thing there are folks like Dr Andrews.
All of those items have been resolved nicely for him, and he is able to pursue college coaching as a career.

Like yours, ours graduated in 4 years, before he was drafted. He is now on to his life after playing baseball, without a fiance, that I know about.
He got to play at a very high level and I am sure will be telling Randy Johnson stories for the rest of his life.

BHD,
I was not putting down your player, but have over time tried to understand your posts.

The last few have made more sense than any before them. I may not be the only one who is noticing that.
According to your son breaking balls are less stressful than FB. According to mine, FB are less stressful. So that is my point that each pitcher is totally different.

That is the first time you have ever said that is your son's opinion, do you get my point?

There is nothing wrong with your son wanting more to his life than the chance to play baseball year after year. There is nothing wrong with we as parents accepting that and knowing when the game ends, it ends. What you do after your life begins is what is most important.

Your kids living far away means that perhaps you did your job well as a parent. Raising independent individuals to allow them to live their own life if what they say makes you a good parent, not to be dependent upon us after they reach a certain age.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
The biggest problem with youth baseball?

Parents of 12-year olds who think they already have all of the answers.

Wow...that's pretty personal. We go from a discussion about curve balls at the youth level to you insulting me.

Just a question. You can answer it, or deflect it..

How long did you play?

And I never said I had all the answers. I said add as many tools as you can, have fun and enjoy it. Because for 99% it ends before they want it too....

I was happy with my run. Topping out at 89 won't get you paid as a RHP....but it made Div I pretty enjoyable for a very short time...until 4 years of HS FB caught up ....

7 pages. Wow! Could it just be that everyone basis their opinion on their own personal experiences in the game? And everyone has alot of different experiences in the game so everyone has a different opinon? So could it be that you are all right because in your situation that is what you experienced?

Why dont we just focus on the things we can all agree on. Overuse can lead to some arm issues - or will.
Improper throwing mechanics can lead to some arm issues - or will.
What worked for you might not have worked for someone else.
What didnt work for you might work for someone else.
And none of us has all the answers.

If someones experience in the game showed them something no one is going to come on here and convince them that it didnt show them that. No amount of discussion is going to change what you experienced from being what you experienced.

I will sit back and read the next 7 pages before I post again.

justbaseball and I don't have any of the answers.
Heck, I will bet your velocity in college might be higher than both of ours combined.
We are just a couple of old experienced folks.
Coached in LL, been involved in the running of LL and beyond. Seen a lot.
I have been on this site a very long time.
In that period I have really learned a lot.
Hopefully, I have shared information to help others learn too.
I surely know I don't have all the answers. I value the opinions of others.
I am sure justbb can speak for himself but I will say I enjoyed seeing him cheering his son who was pitching in Omaha last June 23 in the CWS,
But what do we know. We are just a couple of old Dad's. Your son is a 12 year old and doing great.
I wish him the best.
BTW, it strikes me as odd that there are so many posts about over use or cb.
To me, that isn't the issue at all. It is overuse and cb's. They both combine. It isn't mutually exclusive and no one knows where one starts and the other stops.
Funny how this happens. When I first posted, it seemed like I was in a different world from bballman.
With his last post on paying attention to all pitches, whether they be FB/CB or something else, it seems that gap narrowed considerably.
Funny how this works on the HSBBW.

ctandc - I've been reading your posts. Lots of good stuff, but you seem to convey that you have all of the answers. That struck me as odd.

Since you seem to want resumes...I have 4 sons...all have played baseball...I coached them all into HS. Two still play, one of them in the minor leagues, the other still in HS. I am old, getting older yet I feel like I'm learning more and more about all levels of baseball every time I watch a game at any level, any time I read an article or listen to an interview, any time I read this website...including this thread (the two sons who are still playing, both pitchers).

I went to a college game tonight, talked to some old-timers like me, and learned another thing or two.

I didn't mean to insult you, but I admit I was trying to make a point. I doubt you got it. Maybe when your son is 10 years older than he is now, you'll get what I'm saying?

I thought some of your posts were pointed in their tone towards other posters, so I thought you could handle the same.

Sorry I was wrong.

Tfox,

quote:

“Wouldn't it be true that if a kid throws hard but does it incorrectly, the higher the likelihood of permanent damage?”

You would think so but I have witnessed the injury ratio’s do not discriminate between the two, both degrade their arms if improper force application is used It gets down to mechanical adherence to supinated drives and releases and over early(at leg lift) rotation amounts that cause centrifuging (traditional teachings), all of these players are susceptible to injuries and the pronators with straightened out drivelines stay healthy.
Players that are genetically gifted to throw fast will also make the physiological changes needed to as they age to throw fast safely only if there mechanics are non injurious and the same goes for less gifted players.

quote:

“I know he cares about playing centerfield though.”

Tell him to always ask the coach if he can play there!! then he will get to follow his desire.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
ctandc - I've been reading your posts. Lots of good stuff, but you seem to convey that you have all of the answers. That struck me as odd.

Since you seem to want resumes...I have 4 sons...all have played baseball...I coached them all into HS. Two still play, one of them in the minor leagues, the other still in HS. I am old, getting older yet I feel like I'm learning more and more about all levels of baseball every time I watch a game at any level, any time I read an article or listen to an interview, any time I read this website...including this thread (the two sons who are still playing, both pitchers).

I went to a college game tonight, talked to some old-timers like me, and learned another thing or two.

I didn't mean to insult you, but I admit I was trying to make a point. I doubt you got it. Maybe when your son is 10 years older than he is now, you'll get what I'm saying?

I thought some of your posts were pointed in their tone towards other posters, so I thought you could handle the same.

Sorry I was wrong.

Just thought it was an odd way to go from there. I apologize if it wasn't intended that way.

Cause I sure don't know it all.

I was just a bit riled up since I See the curve ball blamed all the time, and that's why I usually don't get involved in these threads.

Overuse is overuse is overuse.

I agree with Coach May, everyone's situation is different because every pitcher is different.

I am not sold on the concept that CB causes injury, or that the FB causes injury, my point is that all pitches thrown, too much, too young even older CAN cause injury.

FWIW, again, son threw hard, so he wasn't allowed to throw a CB in game situations until he reached HS. No sliders or knuckleballs either. That was it for him, so doesn't mean it won't work for someone else. That's just what he did, maybe if he didn't throw harder, things would have been different.

Infielddad,
BTW, Hurley down with TJS.

Wow 7 pages!
As the OP of this topic, I want to thank everyone for contributing.I've learned a lot from you all. Mostly, that I'm doing things right by being concerned, watching that my son doesn't get over used, making him work on ALL of his pitches etc.. I feel like maybe I've been downplaying his ability to pitch in H.S. because of his lack of velocity(which is all most seem to care about). He is a "pitcher" not a "thrower". He gets people out by keepimg FB's down,changing speeds, and being able to throw CB ANYTIME. It makes his FB look 90mph. Therefore we see lots of groundballs and quick innings.We have 5 kids on our team who throw harder but can't get people out. They could on the small field, but from 60'6" it's a little different.Overuse is a big concern of mine, although it hasn't been a problem this year because I handle the pitchers on our school team and I'm trying to develop as many as I can for the H.S. coach.
I don't think these days with the bats that are available in H.S. and College that 80-85 will work if you can't change speeds and locate.Even in H.S. JMHO.
I know that to be recruited you need to have velocity.Thats why everyone talks about it. That's also why so many get recruited and never make it.The scout found a kid with exceptional velocity and hoped he could "learn to be a pitcher" at the next level.Odds are if he had heat, he didn't have to know how to pitch. It doesn't happen very often, but thats the world we live in. Just like they say "speed" is #1 thing in a position player. They want the fastest 1st, then see if he can hit at next level. Meanwhile, they're leaving tons of kids behind that are "gamers" but couldn't touch 90 on a gun or run a 4.5 40.

I also believe that throwing pitches in a game isn't where the damage is done. It's all the practice that it takes a kid to become proficient with his pitches.My son NEVER practices his CB. Like so many have said, it's an EASY pitch to learn. CU, now that's a tough pitch to command. That's the one that should be thrown as much as possible, especially in LT.

Unfortunetly, and I don't always agree, velocity is important, but lots of it depends upon the individual pitcher. This is where common sense comes into play.
One other thing, depending on being a LHP or a RHP, the rules change. A lefty has to learn to adapt due to lack of velocity, that RHP possesses. Breaking balls become more important for lower velocity pitchers as you move up to the next level. But that doesn't mean that developing velocity is not something you stop working on, or not rely on, even if it means your game has to suffer for awhile.

JMO.

ctandc - Not a problem. Like I said, lots of good stuff in many of your posts. I definitely like your attitude of 'enjoy it while you can.' Thats pretty much the way I look at it.

Look forward to reading about your son's coming years.

TPM there are some very hard throwing LHP. Adam Loewen was mid 90s but unfortunately his arm is wrecked. Fortunately after his 7.2M contract was near an end. Did the Oriols get there money's worth ? Adam is now a Jay and trying to get back as a fielder.
You can wreck your arm with any pitch and most do not have great velo. My son's doctor told me 2 weeks ago about a 14yo who came to him with the inside of his elbow black and blue. He in all his years never saw anything like it. The kid was a rec ball player.
My son's college team has 3 guys who pitch in the 90s. The one hits 97-98. He is a closer and will get drafted next year. He also hits the ball out of the park. I believe he holds the record at the college for most HRs now and hit 3 in one game. He plays RF and no one runs on him. The announcers are always commenting on what a gun he has. He also has great mechanics MOST of the time. There is always the possibility he could make that one bad throw like so many I know have.
If you are going to pitch know your bady, develop all your pitches and put in the effort to strengthen your body/arm to minimize the risk.
I also recommend regular check ups with a chiropractor who knows what to look at. Some injuries are built up like scare tissue and bpne chips. Some injuries happen in a flash.

4 Seamer: It appears that your son has discovered a most important facet in pitching. Hitting is about pitch recognition and timing whereas pitching is about deception and disruption of timing.

Yes, there are some hard LHP, not talking college or pro here, but what is safe for younger players.

I beleive in chiropractic care. Son went to chiropractor in HS, and recently off season.

But in my experience, no one knows much until you go inside and take a look.

TPM I was amazed at what our doc could tell. He could feel swollen Ulnar, scare tissue, bone chips shoulder sock strenght. I watched him and he explained everything as he worked on my son. If he found a problem it went to the mext step . MRI, ultra sound etc.
It was interesting and I learned a lot about what to look for. The main thing I learned was not to pitch with pain and he told my son he did the right thing when he pulled himself from that game. I was very pround that he did that. He didn't have pain even it just didn't feel right. It would have been easy to ingnor and get caught up in the game and people counting his strikeouts out loud. It was even more difficult since it was his old team from 17U.
There have been some good posts here. I like some others just get tired of hearing people blame CBs and blame parents for wanting their little Johnny to be a star. If you thyink about it is very insulting and no one knows but the player and the parent what they have done to prepare their son.

TPM I have mentioned that my son found it less stressful to throw a CB every time we have this discussion. When I pitched we never used CBs because no one taught us how to throw them. Fortunately I had a great FB and a great arm from years of weight lifting.

My comment is my opinion and sorry if you felt insulted.
I don't know about you, but even though son has come through to this point relatively healthy, with some minor issues, looking back there are things that we would change. Mostly, not starting kid pitching at 8-9 but waiting until son was closer to HS age, or perhaps in HS.

I was a parent of a young pitcher who could get kids out, I do remember those feelings of pride that he was obviously a good player and the team's star pitcher. It's normal. And it is so normal to get caught up in letting your young player do more than he should because he is who everyone wants on their team (or multiple teams). While husband was pretty pain in the a$$ about his pitching and who he played for and what he threw, we watched the other kids pitch game after game, in multiple leagues, throwing everything with no limits. Most don't play anymore, due to injury or burn out.

Better information is avaliable now and there was no HSBBW back then.

Common sense, I think there is no argument when you hurt or something doesn't feel right you stop. The first thing to teach your player, no matter what position, be honest if you don't feel well.

We all get caught up in what we feel is the best way for young players, and mostly based on our own experience, but I'll bet if you asked most parents who have pitchers or players our son's age, they to would go back and do things differently.

Anyway, this has gotten off track, for the record I never said here that throwing CB's caused injury.

My son was the opposite.

BTW, I forgot, this has been a good discussion.
One thing that did jump out at me, was infielddad's comment about Hurley.

Ny son played with him on a travel team in HS, he was amazing and he was successful and I agree with the statement from IFD. That's why, developing the FB is important for every pitcher above all other pitches, it can affect your other stuff as well. Good point!

It is my udnerstanding that he played on several team, often. Regardless, he was able to remain healthy to get where he is, without injury and that, should be the goal, no matter what level one is aiming for at the time or for the future.

I just started throwing a curve this past fall as a sophomore. Until then I just had fastball, change up, and cut fastball. My changeup is still my best pitch. If you have a good one, it fools hitters more than anything.

Where has Bobblehead been lately? Its good to see you are back.

quote:

Originally posted by MarlinsMS_35:
I just started throwing a curve this past fall as a sophomore. Until then I just had fastball, change up, and cut fastball. My changeup is still my best pitch. If you have a good one, it fools hitters more than anything.

That's great. The thing is..a good change up and a good curve ball are fairly common once you get to high school and beyond. What's rare is EXCEPTIONAL change up or an EXCEPTIONAL curve ball.

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
That's great. The thing is..a good change up and a good curve ball are fairly common once you get to high school and beyond. What's rare is EXCEPTIONAL change up or an EXCEPTIONAL curve ball.

Good or exceptional doesn't matter, what does is if they are thrown for strikes in any count and produces desired results.

quote:

Good or exceptional doesn't matter, what does is if they are thrown for strikes in any count and produces desired results.

May I pick this nit, please?

The thing that makes one curve break more than another is the velocity of rotation generated. More spin means more drop.

While command and control are essential for any pitch, a pitcher may well obtain the desired results as it relates to the pitch only to see it become a souvenier for some fan in the center field bleachers.

What is the perfect pitch? Does it exist? If the genie gave a pitcher one wish and he wished for the perect pitch, what would it be? For me, it would be the ability to throw an unhittable strike.

no problem with nit picking.

I did mention desired results. Becoming a souvenior, I agree is not always producing the result that the pitcher may want.

I agree the perfect pitch is producing unhittable strikes. Do you agree that you will not find too many pitchers that have all 3-4 of their pitches that are exceptional.

I didn't want the young man to think that is what he needs to move forward.

TPM: I wish I had a quarter for every pitch that I wanted to call back as it left my hand. But there were some that looked very good until batter swung and the ball became a waver pitch. I waved at it, F4 waved at it, and F8 waved at it. Part of the game.

quote:

Originally posted by Daque:
TPM: I wish I had a quarter for every pitch that I wanted to call back as it left my hand. But there were some that looked very good until batter swung and the ball became a waver pitch. I waved at it, F4 waved at it, and F8 waved at it. Part of the game.

I know a pitcher who probably wishes he had the same quarter (s).

quote:

I wish I had a quarter for every pitch that I wanted to call back as it left my hand. But there were some that looked very good until batter swung and the ball became a waver pitch. I waved at it, F4 waved at it, and F8 waved at it. Part of the game.

This happens to the best pitchers and even when a great pitch is thrown. Any time someone swings a peice of lumber through the strike zone accidents can happen.

A game where mistakes happen often, that is for sure.
But not so much about mistakes, but how you come back after you have made the mistake and taking ownership. That is what helps you to move forward.

Dontrelle Willis returns on Wednesday.

http://www.freep.com/article/2...9/SPORTS02/905090390

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
That's great. The thing is..a good change up and a good curve ball are fairly common once you get to high school and beyond. What's rare is EXCEPTIONAL change up or an EXCEPTIONAL curve ball.

Good or exceptional doesn't matter, what does is if they are thrown for strikes in any count and produces desired results.

True. But if the pitch is a quality pitch, it doesn't really have to be a strike..it just has to LOOK like a strike to the hitter.

I thought I would come in and share this. We just found out yesterday during a tournament that our 11u team just lost our #1 pitcher.

This is a great kid with a lot of potential.The kid had great location/control, 65 to 67 mph fastball, good change up, wicked curve. The parents showed up to the tournament yesterday with a doctors report.

The kid cant play baseball again without Tommy John. When the parents showed me the report the kid was standing their with tears in his eyes. This really ****ed me off.

See I keep hearing on this thread how if a curve ball is thrown correctly that it doesnt put as much strain on the arm as a fastball. However lets just assume for one moment that is correct. ( ASSUME )

You have a lot of dads out there coaching travel ball that are clueless about anything mechanical with baseball. They may think they know something because they played a little high school baseball but they dont. Then you have the dads / coach that has the win at all cost mentality that will allow a kid to throw 100 + pitches an outing at 10 and 11 yrs old.

These coaches of this kid who was our teams #1 pitcher had him throwing curve balls at least 50% of the time. Why because he was good enough to throw them for strikes at age 11. Now Im not talking about looping curve balls. I am talkling about curves that SNAP.

This is the 3rd kid pitcher I have seen since Feb of this year go out of youth baseball with arm problems. Im not talking about 14 or 15 year olds. I am talking this is the 3rd kid I personally know of from ages 10 to 11. The common factor they all have in common is they all threw a lot of curve balls.

Its tough for kids at this age to sit back on a curve ball when these same pitchers have 60 to 68 mph fastballs and they throw a curve ball that comes in at 45 mph. So since most coaches know this some of them abuse the use of curve balls.

Now some of you might say well the parents should know better. Well most parents just want to see their kid shine. They ASSUME because their kid is looking good on the baseball field and the team is winning that the coaches must know what they are talking about or doing and dont question any of the advice their son is getting from the coaches.

In a nutshell any parent who allows their child to throw a curve ball is putting their childs health and baseball future at risk. Your child might be the one who doesnt get arm trouble but then again he might tear his arm completely up. Why risk this at 10,11,12,13 or 14 years of age.

What you are hearing is absolutely correct. Don't know where you live but we have an excellent pitching coach that has taught my sons how to throw a KNUCKLE curve that will not injure their arms. My youngest son started pitching at 9 and was a side arm thrower. He started lessons shortly after and his coach changed his technique and corrected his form and he now plays 13 majors and is doing great. Our coach is Ray Vaughn he owns Fast Pitch America in Seagoville. 5 of our Pitchers now go to him. He is well worth the cost of lessons. Tell him the Ferra's sent you.

quote:

In a nutshell any parent who allows their child to throw a curve ball is putting their childs health and baseball future at risk.

Wrong! It would only be the parents whose kids are playing for coaches who can't spot failing mechanics.

With your logic we should bubble wrap our kids and not let them out of the house. A batted ball could kill them. Getting hit by a fastball could kill them. Crashing into a teammate or fence could kill them. They could get killed riding to or from the game.

My son was once tossed into a wall driving to the hoop for a game winning layup. Should he stop going to the hoop? He (s****r goalie) has been kicked in the head pulling a shot of a shooter's foot. Then there's football.

ASA softball requires facemaks on batting helmets. When my daughter got to college softball the first thing she did was request a helmet without a mask. I didn't have a problem with the decision. She once whiplashed herself catching her mask on the ground sliding headfirst. So much for safety. The mask injured her. She never took a pitch or foul ball in the mask.

Sports and life are full of inherent risks. It's up to each family to assess the risks and make their own decisions. What is sad is when parents are uninformed and make the wrong decisions.

Most kids that throw curves also are over used, so the jury may still be out on that one.

Yeah you are gonna have lots of people come here and say I taught son how to throw a safe curve, or son's p coach taught him a safe way to throw a CB. Well, I don't buy it, even if safe, if you have success you are gonna be in the game more than other pitchers. Same way with a hard thrower that doesn't throw Cb's he's in the game more because he is dominate. You don't REALLY know, so you just eliminate what MAY be a problem until the pitcher gets older.
That's why young pitchers shouldn't be all wrapped up in pitching, a few innings a week, then play position.

JMO

I understand your pain, disappointment, and anger. The fact of the matter is that some kids just break. Some sooner than others. Even with flawless technique. But as yu pointed out, some kids are overused.

This kid has been throwing a, "curve" since on the small diamond. I am going to offer a guess that it was not a true curve breaking from 12 to 6 O'Clock away from the pitcher and having a downward trajectory. At this distance, to be effective, it would have to be a slurve or little league curve with some degree of lateral rotation.

Now take into account that it sounds like this kid was playing on more than one team in a climate that allows for year around baseball. This is a recipe for overuse and abuse.

Ultimately, it is the resonsibility of the parents to know what their children are involved in and the dangers thereof. I have forever said that you cannot protect a child from his parents and gave up trying years ago.

I may be all wet on the read on this kid. But while it is the, "curve" that gets the blame it is the overuse that is the real culprit. The motion at the elbow joint is the same for a real curve or a fast ball. So while this kid is now broken, don't blame the curve, blame the responsible adults that were supposed to protect him. You are preaching to the choir with the wrong message.

How many months off from baseball did this kid have pere year?

OCB you seem to make a lot assumptions based on you limited knowledge and experience.
***-U-ME is what you get from assuming.

I have 2 Friends I just watched play elite senior BB. One was the closer for Arkansas LR and the other hadn't pitched in years until recently. He just got back from playing pro ball in Italy after D1 college. Both these guys threw FBs/CU and were prospects hitting 85 at 14yo. Neither threw CBs except on a rare occasion. Both had at least 2 major surgeries on their throwing arm. Both were spectacular throwing complete games against college and ex pros. The one was in the low 90s. Don't they teach "Scientific Methods" in your schools? I don't know why people keep conclusions based on limited knowledge and experience.
Even DR Andrews won't draw that conclusion.

quote:

...so you just eliminate what MAY be a problem until the pitcher gets older.

Following your logic, since the shoulder and elbow motion are the same for both a fast ball and a curve, kids should not pitch unless it is in softball. Until what age can they begin pitching baseball? Machine pitch until the full sized diamond?