Deleted Post

CAdad - I also say "it is my understanding", "I think" and "I heard" but I am not apologizing for any of them.

I am not apologizing for apologizing either....

FWIW....
JH is not a judgemental old dog but a very smart and intelligent college pitcher.

PGStaff is owner and founder of PG. You probably got his attention, but not sure pointing out to him that the players in OK are better than in CA makes sense.

CPLZ was correct, you did throw out the first punch.

Your son's page got a lot of "hits" today I am sure, but probably not from the right people you intended to see. Especially your son playing on JV while the other player (younger ) played on varsity.

I would follow the advice and remove the comparisons, it'snot going to help the cause.
Just a suggestion.

Best of luck.

Cheapseats that was funny.

No way you can compare JV stats to varsity stats. Completely different. I think this is what everyone was talking about when they said stats are meaningless because of the context. Maybe this kid is really good and should be ranked higher than the #1 kid in the country, but it certainly won't be based on JV stats.

Cheapseats
The 79 AB's and 96 plate Appearances in the video are 100% E.M.H.S. Varsity/Senior Legion including 55 Senior 19U Legion Tournament AB's. You will see in the video the actual game by game results,20 current college pitchers, a dozen All-State pitchers and about 100 current college players including Marlins JT Realmuto. Only 6 of the games had ordinary high school pitchers At his scool they had 19 seniors and all seniors are on varsity.Wes had another 60 hits on video this year including JV and Junior college games like Seminole State & others

quote:

Originally posted by standup:
Cheapseats
The 79 AB's and 96 plate Appearances in the video are 100% E.M.H.S. Varsity/Senior Legion including 55 Senior 19U Legion Tournament AB's. You will see in the video the actual game by game results,20 current college pitchers, a dozen All-State pitchers and about 100 current college players including Marlins JT Realmuto. Only 6 of the games had ordinary high school pitchers At his scool they had 19 seniors and all seniors are on varsity.Wes had another 60 hits on video this year including JV and Junior college games like Seminole State & others

Okay, thanks for clarifying....I am a CPA but my certificate is a little dusty, help me with the math...

79 AB in Video Analysis (-) Minus 55 Legion AB = 24 Varsity AB ----------> is that correct?

not sure if 24 Varsity AB is enough to do a comparison to the Varsity AB of the CA player you have mentioned.

your son still has a lot of time to be recruited - sounds like you know what kinds of events he needs to attend - with all you have presented I would guess that he will do well and be recruited, heck, you mentioned he has already been contacted by some D1's following the Jupiter WWBA event, sounds like he is doing well, plus he still has lots of time if he is currently a junior. Best of luck for a strong injury free junior/senior year.

Never compare your son to another player publicly. All of us have had people come up to us and say "He's not that good." "My son is just as good as he is." "My son has a higher batting average than he does." The list goes on and on. I have heard people make comments many times about other players. Especially the players with the reps as being very good players. You never make yourself look better by trying to make others look bad. And you simply just dont compare your kid to other kids. And you never do it on the HSBBW. Why? Because everyone of us have been there. Our kids have been those kids others have made those comments about. And we have been there done that , been there seen that.

Its real simple. Get out there and get in the mix and let those that do this stuff for a living tell you what they think. Get out there on the big stage and throw yourself in the fire and see how you stack up. Let his play do the talking. Let him do his talking with his bat and glove. Trying to make a case by comparing your son to another top tier player and using stats etc is lame at best.

Your using JV stats to compare your son to a kid that those that know, those that get paid to do this, those who's reputation is everything in what they do is pathetic at best. Even if your son was better and you knew it I would never say it. I would never put it out there on a message board. Get out on the field and prove what you can do and do it against the best competition you can find. And let OTHER people bang his drum. Never do it yourself. And never compare your son to another player like that. No matter how good that player is or is not. It just doesnt sit well with baseball folks. Of course that just my opinion. Your free to do what you want. But your not free to choose how others will react to it.

bballman & Coach May
I am amazed by some of the misperceptions here.
There are zero JV stats involved here. In fact 54 of the AB's are from Decker Omaha Legion Majors,Oklahoma Outlaws Legion Majors and Oklahoma Varsity Legion State Tournament. They include multiple hits games the NJ State Champion Brooklawn Post 72, USABF National World Series Champions Oklahoma Travelers, Legion National World Series Champion Outlaws and Oklahoma State Champions along with another dozen teams that are predominantly 19U graduated seniors including Enid Majors, Spivey Stars and Edmond Stars.zero JV stats involved here

I really should not have mentioned the JV stuff because that really has nothing to do with it. At least not as far as my post goes. You have more knowledge of what your son has done right there than I have ever had on my own kid. It seems you are really into stats. The people that will make the decisions on your son are not concerned with stats. They are looking at things the untrained eye does not see.

Swing plane , bat speed , bat path , the hands , the swing process , how his tools will play at the next level and much more. If he has what they like you will know it. And his stats , who he got his hits against etc will have nothing to do with it. You will know by the contacts they you get.

Your son may be an absolute stud. I hope he is. Good luck

Forgot.

Coach May coaches (not sure if he did this year) for the Dirtbags.

Listen to the advice and take it from people who know, people who are in the business people who know lots more than you, me or many here.

At any of these tournaments, weren't there any college coaches or scouts?

Anyone want to do a side by side comparison of the swings..........just kidding. I can't believe what I am reading here.

When reading this thread I can't help but think about the dad that had detailed stats from little league through college that he published while analyzing the University of Houston coach/program - (I think his name was Vic) - To make a long story short (literally it was a long story ) the stats drove him crazy because based on the stats he did not think his son received a fair shake. He got the last word but in the end I don't know how it worked out for him. Don't worry about the stats and how they compare to other players - enjoy the high school years, as you know with your daughter, it will be over before you know it.

Standup. My bad, I took the word of someone else that your son played JV. However, I have never heard of any of those other teams you mentioned. Maybe others have. My son has been involved in the travel/tournament scene for 5 years now - he is also a Junior and I have yet to come across any of those teams in any USSSA, Triple Crown, PG, WWBA or any other tournament. Not saying they are not good, just not familiar. I am also not sure about the Legion stuff. I understand Legion ball is big in some parts of the country, but not where I am from.

The problem comes down to comparing apples to oranges. I really think the only way to truly compare is to get him in a PG showcase and let him get graded. That will stack up his skill set against other kids of all talent levels across the country. Not just the Midwest or just the southeast or just California.

If your son has top level talent, he will make it to the next level. Just keep him in front of those who make the decisions. Individual Showcases, showcase tournaments (Jupiter was a good decision), college camps, anything that you would expect coaches and scouts to be at. He doesn't have to be better than the best kid in the country. Just good enough that a next level team will think he can contribute to their program.

I really do wish you the best of luck.

standup

I have had very heated conversations with posters here over opinions of what material the game should be played with and how those rules should be set and who should set them.

That being said, some of the posters I've disagreed with the most on those subjects have also been the ones who helped me the most with their knowledge of how this whole process works for our sons. The knowledge of these posters is invaluable and they will help you with the questions you have.

You will NOT find a better site to gather the info you are looking for and you will not find a site with more knowledgeable "been there, done that" posters. Tap into their experience. The people posting here are more than willing to help you crack the code.

Looks like your son is one heck of a ball player.

I finally got to see the vids, I must say he has good hand-eye coordination.

There are some truly wonderful people here.I'm sorry but some people needs to get a litlle closer to reality insteade of making up their own. Can u see how ignorant, wrong assuming & unobservant some people can be. Can they really not differentiate between 19U D1 pitchers and JV baseball? The 79 AB's & 98 PA's are all for one EMHS Varsity High School Team that played an awsome schedule including many of the country's top 19U Legion teams. The pitchers on the video include Legion World Series Champion Pitchers Clark Roberts Cowley County CC & Legion WS Strikeout Record Holder Kevin Hill, USABF World Series Champions Travis Carraway Murray State, Dayne Parker Wichita State, Daniel Edwards OSU, Kellen Smith Labette CC, Nick Fowble NEOSHO, JT Realmuto MLB and I could go on. These 19U Pitchers are far better or more developed than the average HS pitchers in any league. Is it that people dont even watch the video and comment on it or are they truly clueless when watching a D1 pitcher thinking its JV baseball?

quote:

Originally posted by standup:
Here is a comparison of a Perfect Game Top Ranked 2012 Hitter and a non ranked player(my son)of the same year. Both Players high school teams played 28 Games and the non ranked player's team played against USABF,Legion Regional & National Champion teams including National Tournaments.The non ranked player has more hits, more walks and less strikeouts per AB in real world games.The top ranked hitter has more homeruns and is excellent.What are recommendations for non ranked players becoming ranked?
http://video.berecruited.com/videos/athletes/658295

Standup - we got off track because your first post (shown above) refers to the 28 game high school schedule for your son and the 28 game schedule for the PG top ranked player you are comparing him to. Then, through the course of discussion we learn that only a portion of the HS games your son played in are Varsity and most are from summer legion ball. We now understand you don't have JV stats in your analysis video but your initial post implied it was apples to apples 28 varsity games. Do you see why we are confused?

To be a valid analysis, you would need the summer stats for the player you are comparing your son to. However, like Coach May said earlier, comparisons to other players are not a good idea, there is no upside in making the comparison.

If your original goal in starting this thread was to have your son noticed by the leading organization for ranking 2012 hitters, I think you have accomplished that goal.

quote:

Originally posted by standup:
Can u see how ignorant, wrong assuming & unobservant some people can be.

Ok you win, we are stupid and ignorant and unobservant.

BTW, pardon my ignorance, what was the original purpose of this topic?

Standup doesn't truly want any advise. He already has all of the answers he needs.

I do, however, thank him for presenting this topic. There is a lot of valuable information about what matters by those that responded.

I can see why you are confused.What confused you was that their high school website is only updated once a year. 100% of the continuous 28 games on the video is for the same single Varsity High shcool team from beginning to end that was 2010 State Legion runnerup and also won the State Wood Bat AABC Prairie League Championship. It is a comparison of all varsity games played by each player in 2010. It is representative of roughly 98 plate appearances for one player and 113 for the other. The only thing thats not apples to apples is the mix of higher level pitching against current college pitchers seen nationally compared with all high school age pitchers in regular league games.It's not terribly important but I sure do see how dramatically less hitting the nationally ranked senior player on my son's team did againt this pitching compared to Spring. By the way, I kind of felt like I was doing good when folks started accusing me of lurking and being called "dirtball"
Billy Martin would be proud.

okay, I think I will bow out of this discussion now because I am still confused....you are using the term "Varsity High School team" but you are talking about what the high school team did in the SUMMER LEAGUE season which is what I would call "summer ball". Actually, even within summer ball there is a big difference between league play and competitive tournament play.

At this school they require all Varsity baseball players to play on the School team they call Varsity/AAA. It is a much more competitive schedule than Spring baseball and it puts them in the position of playing travel ball teams to make them better. The HS coach does a great job.

Standup,

I went to the video. Your son looks like he can swing it. However, his stats mean nothing because there's no baseline for any of us to measure him with. He could be facing outrageous pitching and tearing it up. He could be facing garbage and tearing that up too. I understand you feel he's seeing high level guys. It's a big world out there. I've been through it twice.

Here's my suggestion: get him to one of the Perfect Game showcases - like the World Showcase in January. Put him out there against some of the best players in the nation and see what he does. That's how you will get your son ranked, since it's the clear objective you have.

I was unsure of where my younger guy stood until I took him to PG World and then to PG National. You might have all your questions answered, as I did after seeing him against the best in the country. It's eye-opening to say the least.

I have to add one thing - comparing your son's stats to any other young man, for whatever reason, is pretty well out of line. Perhaps a better way is just to post the very stats you are so proud of and invite people to take a look at the site you've set up.

MM

Standup,

Unfortunately, the closer I look at what you say, the less persuaded I get.

Like a lot of people at this site, I'm mostly familiar with the PG WWBA events and the teams that consistently show well at them. However, I know it's a big country, so I have an open mind about people and programs and events I haven't heard of. Unfortunately, when I try to verify the information you offer, your compelling narrative starts coming apart.

For example, I looked up one of the players you said your son hit against. I couldn't find him on the roster of the school you said, but I did find him listed at PG--as a MIF committed to a Juco. So I checked the JUCO's fall roster and he's not there. Thus, what you presented as experience against a D1 pitcher turns out to be experience against a MIF who may or may not be on a college roster.

So I checked another guy on your list. Eureka! He's on the roster of the school you mentioned. But, whoops, he's an infielder, not a pitcher.

So I checked another guy. Same story. He's on the JUCO roster you say, but not primarily as a pitcher and not included in the school's press release about incoming players likely to make an impact.

So I checked another guy: he's not on the roster where you say he is and I couldn't find him at PG.

So basically your list of accomplished pitchers evaporated on contact.

If you want to persuade casual non-expert observers like me, hold the stats until you can show a PG rating or another credible independent evaluation.

standup,
I knew exactly what you had posted when I said your son had played JV as a sophmore. He played JV as a sophmore. Like most kids he then went on to play up with the varsity as a rising junior. What you've posted implies that he played varsity as a sophmore. Williams posted his stats as a younger sophmore playing varsity.

What do you hope to gain from this charade?

Swamp Boy. Here I'll help you out.
see Caraway, Parker & Edwards Pitching in USABF WS
http://www.elkcitytravelers.co...ult.asp?xFILE=Recaps
Caraway Murray State
http://www.mscok.edu/athletics/babroster11.html
Daniel Edwards OSU
http://www.njcaa.org/colleges_...4&requesttimeout=500
http://www.elkcitytravelers.co...sp?xFILE=College_Pro
Dayne Parker WSU
http://www.goshockers.com/Spor..._ID=7500&SPSID=61171
Clayton Blackburn OU
http://blog.newsok.com/highsch...commits-to-oklahoma/
See Legion WS Champion Outlaws Pitchers Roberts Realmuto & Head
http://post170.com/History/201...id/2797/Default.aspx
Clark Roberts Ccowley County
http://www.cowleytigers.com/baseball/baseroster.html
See Kellen Smith Labette CC
http://www.labette.edu/dept/at.../baseball/roster.htm
See Nick Fowble NEOSHO
http://www.neosho.edu/Athletic...ball/TeamRoster.aspx

CADad
Are you OK? Why do u comment on what u have not read or seen?
"Would you like to compare the pitching in your son's conference to our HS conference here in SoCal?"

We are comparing 100 Varsity Plate appearances against elite pitchers that have already pitched in college
and or represent all-star teams of Legion Majors 19U that are college committed pitchers to anothers players AB's against ordinary HS varsity pitchers.It would be as if your HS team played the Southern California Aangels or San Diego Show. I said at the onset he's wonderful. Charade? Are you kidding me?

"What do you hope to gain from this charade"
Again you read the post from Swampboy whose brain is the only thing that evaporated. He couldn't find his from page 8 so I have to assist another pundit into the light by providing links to college rosters.Every pitcher I mentioned is as represented. Have you ever heard of the USABF?

Your son has exactly 0 varsity plate appearances to date. He like many others may have played against some top competition in the summer.

I'm sorry but you have nothing out there that compares with the Marmonte League.

I also believe the comparison info should be removed from your recruiting materials. Many coaches will see your data as currently presented and conclude that someday they might recieve an e-mail from you complaining that your son deserves to play more along with an analysis of the players he should be ahead of. The coaches may never look at the other videos of your son playing.

Honestly speaking none of the schools that recruited my son ever asked for his stats and we never offered them. I think you are waging an unecesary battle defending and promoting your son's stats.

Let his play speak for itself.

Good luck.

You can post all the stats you want to post. I do find it simply amazing you know the names and schools attended by the pitchers your son has faced in summer baseball. It just shows I believe that you are extremely hung up on stats. I once coached a kid in summer baseball who's dad carried a stop watch, radar gun and clip board with him to every game. He would record his sons pop times, every one of them. He would record the pitchers velo when his son was hitting. He had an entire book of stats on his son. None of it mattered one bit as far as recruiting.

Your son may indeed by a stud. Again, I hope he is. But the stats or the pitchers he has hit off of etc is not going to matter. The data YOU as the parent have on him in regards to stats etc will not matter to college coaches or professional scouts. What they see with their eyes is what is going to matter. So simply get him in front of the decision makers and you will have all the answers you need. He just played at Jupiter so that should get you some contacts if he showed what he needs to show. Continue to get him in front of the people that matter and everything will clear up in due time.

When a parent beats the drum of their own child it carries no weight to those that matter. When someone else does that who has credibility in the decision makers eyes it carries weight. When the decision makers start beating his drum you will know it and so will he. Good luck

Standup,

Here's what I'm not going to do. I'm not going to drag the names of these innocent bystanders into this discussion by publicly dissecting your list.

The readers of this site will judge for themselves whether my observations are fair.

quote:

Originally posted by standup:
Appreciate you sharing your knowledge PG Staff. Next time I send a pm it would be nice to avoid
"I don't understand why you chose this particular kid to compare with"
Chosen only because of top ranking. Could have been a comparison of 4 local area code players from one HS team who combined don't have as many varsity extra-base hits as sourced by Max preps this year. However they are good pitchers and though my son's team beat them twice this year with his 8 RBI's in two games helping out, i think they are wonderful players.
"It's one thing to play against top competition a few times and playing against it most all the time.""Can't compare to Southern California when it comes to competition."He is from Southern California and plays for a team that competes against the very best regularly." "There's probably a kid somewhere in a small town in Iowa that has much better stats than both them boys." "Definitely a good baseball state, but can't compare to Southern California when it comes to competition."
In concept all of this is true. But in this specific case there is little doubt that the pitching at Decker Omaha and Senior Legion 19U and Oklahoma State Championships is far more competitive than average California HS pitching. I lived there for 25 years. A more realistic comparison would be the other players performance for the San Digo show which are not published.
"Definitely a good baseball state, but can't compare to Southern California when it comes to competition."
2010 USABF World Series Champion Oklahoma Travelers outscored California teams 87-27 in 10 games during that tournament.
2010 Legion World Series Champions Oklahoma Outlaws outscored all teams 102-37 in 12 games during that tournament. Combined National Championship Tournament record is 21-2 with 132 K's. Wherever your from, if you hit well against these teams you are a hitter.
As For CPLZ please get out your glasses and re-read the post before you tyrade calling people dirtball because you have difficulty with context. I was referring specifically to TRhit & JH who label themselves as "old timers".If you are going to make wrong assumptions and mis-quotes about people you really ought to tell your wife. Maybe she cares. Just remember every one in the baseball world has gotten along fine without you as it shall continue.

standup,

Interestingly enough, I didn't notice this post originally, I guess I skimmed through the thread too quickly. It's true, The Oklahoma Travelers have a very good program. They came out to San Diego for the USABF World Series and won the tournament. I know, because my kid threw 5 innings against the Travelers in a 5-1 loss. He gave up four runs, and 5 hits in his appearance, and struckout eight. I remember the game well because there were two players on the Travelers that owned my son in that game. One of the players (I believe Texas A&M commit) hit two solo HR's off bsbl jr. What you fail to realize is that the SD SHOW was playing with nine players in that game. We had several kids that were playing out of position all over the field. Also, there was another 18u Wood Bat Tournament going on in Southern California that week, , and we had a team entered in that tournament as well. So basically we were playing as a Split Squad. As far as outscoring the California teams by such a wide margin? Consider that ABD, SGV Arsenal, Nor Cal, and several other high profile Calif teams were not in the USABF Series. We played in it because it was in our backyard, but we were a depleted roster. Take nothing away from the Travelers, they're good, but if we had our full contingency of players and the other Calif teams were entered, things would have been much different, JMO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I had read that your boy was part of the Travelers program? Maybe I misunderstood? I have to agree with you, Oklahoma has outstanding baseball and some very good players...however, not quite as deep as the talent pool here in California!

Wow, you guys still at it...This could be an All Nighter...When PG 2012 State rankings comes out, it will be interesting.

2011 PG State Rankings are out..

bsbl247..Good Luck to Junior on the 10th!

Ryanrod,

I'm done, I originally missed his post regarding the California teams...and since my kid was involved I chimed in. I usually prefer to stay out of these disagreements, I'd much rather debate in person...my fingers can't handle all this typing!

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanrod23:
Wow, you guys still at it...This could be an All Nighter...When PG 2012 State rankings comes out, it will be interesting.

2011 PG State Rankings are out..

bsbl247..Good Luck to Junior on the 10th!

Thank you.

Thanks to everyone for your contributions. I'm leaving the cyber baseball world and appreciate the awsome people on this board.If you have any questions you can re-read my posts. The thing I love most about baseball is the people involved. I truly hope you all have peace and happiness. God bless you and keep you safe.

standup,

Sorry if you think I was slighting baseball in your area. We had two Oklahoma HS pitchers on the Aflac team this year and they are both ranked very high in the 2011 class. We know of a few more current Oklahoma HS pitchers who are outstanding. All of those pitchers played on summer club teams rather than, or in addition to, legion or HS ball. Doesn't necessarily make them better, just much more visible.

I will go out on a limb and say the pitchers I'm talking about are considered the top HS age pitchers in Oklahoma by the entire scouting community.

That said the depth of talent in Southern California is well recognized every year in the MLB draft. The number of draft picks and often very early draft picks is well documented. There's not much to argue about when it comes to that.

Even at that, we don't have (that other player) ranked so high because of what he did in high school. He has created quite a buzz in the scouting community by playing coast to coast against the best possible competition in the country with wood bats. And he has been an absolute animal at those events.

No one is saying your son isn't deserving of more recognition. It's always possible he could be one of the best. I think it's the approach that people disagree with. As far as rankings, we like to think we are the best. However, I assure you that we have been wrong many times and we will be wrong many more times. Everyone who evaluates talent makes mistakes and will admit it, that includes college coaches and MLB scouting departments.

Also I think you mentioned something about a PM. Sorry if I didn't remember, I really get lots of those and can't keep up with all of them.

I understand that you mentioned the other kid as being great while doing the comparison. You did not cut him down at all or I'd be the first to get POed. You were simply trying to describe your sons ability. Personally I think that is the wrong approach. Then again remember that I have been wrong many times before. I also think you might be getting a bit too defensive here, but that too is your decision. Heck I get that way myself at times.

Stick around and you will find lots of good people, who post here, pulling for your son. Even those who might disagree with you now. Lots of people who have already gone through what you are experiencing and will experience. They understand how stressful these things can be at times.

We hear from parents arguing about rankings and grades all the time. Sometimes they have legitimate points. But we have seen a lot... We have seen great scouts who can pick out talent in a heartbeat, but they can't evaluate their own son accurately. We know who a parents favorite player is. We also tell players to never be satisfied with what they have accomplished. Satisfaction is a baseball players biggest enemy! Maybe it's a parents worst enemy as well.

Most important is to let rankings do whatever they do. Maybe the right approach is to go about proving them wrong. I love to see kids prove us wrong, it's not an insult at all because we know we will be wrong or miss kids at times.

Best of luck to your son and to you too.

quote:

Originally posted by standup:

Again you read the post from Swampboy whose brain is the only thing that evaporated. He couldn't find his from page 8 so I have to assist another pundit into the light by providing links to college rosters.Every pitcher I mentioned is as represented. Have you ever heard of the USABF?

In Swampboys response to you, nowhere was he personally insulting the way you seem to respond to anyone who doesn't agree with you.

What is this penchant you have to retaliating like an 11 year old to adult conversation?

I have a tip for you. If you wouldn't say something face to face to the person you are speaking to, don't say it on a message board either. You are acting like a spoiled brat, who, when he doesn't get people to agree with him, lashes out in anger with insults and derision.

Lets just hope the kid is humble.

I have read the entire thread. I admit that I am new to this site. But what I have read is a bit disheartening. Although standup jr. already has interest from D1 schools, Standup is complaining that jr. is not ranked??? Really??? Thousands of kids would kill just to be noticed by ANY school (DIII NAIA, JUCO, whatever). Who gives a flying you know what whether the kid is ranked. He's clearly a very good player (based on what I read) and apparently will have no problem whatsoever finding a place somewhere, likely D1. IMHO, standup should stop worrying about rankings (even if standup is correct in his/her views) and just be extremely happy with jr's obvious talent and success. A ranking a ballplayer does not make.