The long head of the biceps attachment point is the supraglenoid tubercle of the scapula. Its distal insertion is in the forearm to the radis bone. it travels though the capsule of the shoulder it is held in place by the humeral ligament. If the ligament becomes lax the biceps tendon can pull/tear/fray off the labrum which is the surrounding tissue that deepens the socket. These are the injuries such a slap lesion or bankart lesions/bucket handle tears. The real point is the longhead of the biceps attache at the supraglenoid tubercle of the scapula and its distal insertion point is the radias. your referring to the short head and it is the coracoid process of the scapula
Yes, but this wouldn't manifest itself as elbow pain.
quote:Originally posted by Coach Chris:
Yes, but this wouldn't manifest itself as elbow pain.
When did I say it would or did?. My post was one that corrected your statement about the long head of the biceps tendon inserting in the upper arm. When in truth both were wrong insertion points are distal attachment point are proximal. The attachment point of the long head of the biceps is not in the upper arm bone its in the scapula. that was all my post was designed for I didnt say anything about the elbow.
You preach this or that mostly based on M&M's philosophies. You claim to find a need to blend the two together for whatever reasons, one being injury. You cannot support any of your "notions" with real research. You fail to produce a replica of your desired mechanics. You may like one or two things that a high level pitcher does BUT you "theorize" you have a better way. You look at a series of still pics from not different games mind you but different seasons. You string them up for your expert analysis with no way of having a clue as to the timeframes involed. Yet from this you never fail to notice a "potential" career ending injury just waiting to happen. If the pitcher has been injured in the past, heck your the real real expert then. When in truth you dont have a clue as to what caused the guys injury other than pitching, there is no proof to anything you say. Digressing yet again in my opinion you have not the slightest idea of just how much power/energy it takes to be a high level pitcher. Not to mention how the body works best at acheiving it. Your so hung up on nonproven theories that may or may not have merit that you cannot see the forest through the trees.
quote:You cannot support any of your "notions" with real research.
Yes I can. See "Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers" by Stephen Lyman PhD, Glenn S. Fleisig PhD, James R. Andrews MD, and E. David Osinski MA. On page 465 of this article, the authors make the following statement...
"In fact, two mechanical flaws, backward lean in the balance position and early hand separation, correlated with a decreased risk of elbow pain. Two other flaws, a long arm swing and arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release, correlated with a decreased risk of shoulder pain."
When the authors talk about the "arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release" they are talking about pronation (and more importantly something that I call Early Pronation). The only way to have the arm in this position at the Release Point is to be actively pronating at (and more importantly well before) that moment.
One thing to keep in mind when reading this paragraph (and article) is that the use of the term "mechanical flaw" is unfortunate (if not a bit misleading). I believe that the authors do not mean that doing these four things will hurt your velocity or control. Instead, I believe that they are just saying that these four things differ from what they believe are ideal mechanics.
Of course, that makes me wonder about the veracity of their model of the ideal pitching motion.
quote:You fail to produce a replica of your desired mechanics.
Dr. Marshall is working on that as we speak. Once the ground dries up (and it stays light longer), I'll start posting some clips myself.
quote:You look at a series of still pics from not different games mind you but different seasons. You string them up for your expert analysis with no way of having a clue as to the timeframes involed.
I'm doing the best I can given my limited resources (and have never said otherwise). I like the resolution I get by stitching together still photos and also like that I get the equivalent of several hundred frame per second photography. Finally, I correlate my sequencing with what I see in videos.
When it comes to injury diagnosis, the timeframes involved aren't nearly as important as the orientations of the parts of the body at critical moments.
I would appreciate the assistance of anyone who can get me access to the photographer's wells of major league ballparks.
quote:Yet from this you never fail to notice a "potential" career ending injury just waiting to happen.
That's overstating things. I do think that every major leaguer is vulnerable to injury, but I think that some major leaguers (e.g. Freddy Garcia and Zach Duke) are less vulnerable to injury while others are more vulnerable to injury (e.g. Mark Prior).
I would never say, as Dr. Marshall says, that every major leaguer will injure themselves.
quote:If the pitcher has been injured in the past, heck your the real real expert then. When in truth you dont have a clue as to what caused the guys injury other than pitching, there is no proof to anything you say.
No, I don't have proof but I do have some theories. I'm trying to test those theories by making predictions and sitting back and seeing what happens. That's the way science works.
If you never pitch again you won't have a pitching injury.
Why don't you take that route?
Still waiting on a cip of someone who throws 85 or greater with your or the quacks mechanics.
Why don't you take that route?
Still waiting on a cip of someone who throws 85 or greater with your or the quacks mechanics.
Nor do you have the skills/knowledge to understand so what good is just looking and hoping. Again your is pure conjecture that is not backed up by a shred of reliable research. Unless of course you deem yourself reliable which is very very far from the truth. Chris you almost know enough to really screw somebody up. But luckily for the masses this will pass soon. As your son has NO chance to become a high level pitcher so long as you are his coach. The point is you will just sort of drift away as your sons pitching career will. Becasue in my opinion as long as hes coached by you he has a whole hell of alot to overcome. Remember Chris I will be watching you and correcting your mistatements as well as your whacky notions about pitching. Heres a closing idea for you Chris. Take the video of yourself throwing the ideal marshall pitch and send it to the armed forces MAYBE just maybe they could use it for a model on how to throw a grenade. It sure as hell dos not resemble a single item in regards to a quality baseball pitch! Dont think I have ever met somebody who knows so little but presents himself as a knowledgable credible sourse.quote:Originally posted by Coach Chris:Why did you leave my quote out in correcting your mistatement about the longhead of the biceps tendon Chris. again Do NOT talk about things in which you dont have the slightest idea other than reading a few articles. your dangerous!quote:You cannot support any of your "notions" with real research.
Yes I can. See "Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers" by Stephen Lyman PhD, Glenn S. Fleisig PhD, James R. Andrews MD, and E. David Osinski MA. On page 465 of this article, the authors make the following statement...
"In fact, two mechanical flaws, backward lean in the balance position and early hand separation, correlated with a decreased risk of elbow pain. Two other flaws, a long arm swing and arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release, correlated with a decreased risk of shoulder pain."
When the authors talk about the "arm ahead of the body at the time of ball release" they are talking about pronation (and more importantly something that I call Early Pronation). The only way to have the arm in this position at the Release Point is to be actively pronating at (and more importantly well before) that moment.
More of Chris Olearys conjecture of what he THINKS they are saying. The word pronation was never even mentioned. Your lost Chris give it. Go play pitchig guru with somebody else. Im going to be watching everything you post becasue your a person who could seriously lead people down the wrong path.
One thing to keep in mind when reading this paragraph (and article) is that the use of the term "mechanical flaw" is unfortunate (if not a bit misleading). I believe that the authors do not mean that doing these four things will hurt your velocity or control. Instead, I believe that they are just saying that these four things differ from what they believe are ideal mechanics.
Of course, that makes me wonder about the veracity of their model of the ideal pitching motion.
More conjecture out of you Chris. why read between the lines. When the bottom line is this quote from the article "in the current study we were UNABLE to demonstrate a relationship between improper pitching mechanics and elbow and shoulder pain in young pitchers". Once again ole Chris Oleary knows better. He thinks he knows what they actually mean when they say one thing or another. They are flaws in the delivery, flaws that inhibit performance. The fact that they WEAKLY [the word you somehow forgot] correlate with less stress to elbow/shoulder is again moot. Once again Chris you are way in over your head. You read between the lines in hopes that you may come up with a supporting fact that is just not there. Get a clue chris the whole premise of the article was basically about pitch counts and overuse as well as types of pitches thrown.quote:You fail to produce a replica of your desired mechanics.
Dr. Marshall is working on that as we speak. Once the ground dries up (and it stays light longer), I'll start posting some clips myself.quote:You look at a series of still pics from not different games mind you but different seasons. You string them up for your expert analysis with no way of having a clue as to the timeframes involed.
I'm doing the best I can given my limited resources (and have never said otherwise). I like the resolution I get by stitching together still photos and also like that I get the equivalent of several hundred frame per second photography. Finally, I correlate my sequencing with what I see in videos.
When it comes to injury diagnosis, the timeframes involved aren't nearly as important as the orientations of the parts of the body at critical moments.
I would appreciate the assistance of anyone who can get me access to the photographer's wells of major league ballparks.quote:Yet from this you never fail to notice a "potential" career ending injury just waiting to happen.
That's overstating things. I do think that every major leaguer is vulnerable to injury, but I think that some major leaguers (e.g. Freddy Garcia and Zach Duke) are less vulnerable to injury while others are more vulnerable to injury (e.g. Mark Prior).
I would never say, as Dr. Marshall says, that every major leaguer will injure themselves.quote:If the pitcher has been injured in the past, heck your the real real expert then. When in truth you dont have a clue as to what caused the guys injury other than pitching, there is no proof to anything you say.
No, I don't have proof but I do have some theories. I'm trying to test those theories by making predictions and sitting back and seeing what happens. That's the way science works.
quote:Originally posted by hit&run:
Chris, can you describe the "early pronation" as it relates to hand position relative to the ball? It appears in your video that as the hand is behind the body, the palm is underneath the ball with fingers pointing up. Is that correct?
There are not to many pitchers that do not naturally pronate upon release. the same way a tennis player pronates on a serve. The same way a shotputter pronates upon release It is a natural process that the body iuses to protect itself as well as enhance performance. Chris would love to have you believe its his idea or that early pronation is the key. The only key that early pronation is good for is lowering the elbow, dragging the arm, lack of external rotation as well as loss of potential power. There is not a single high level pitcher at this time that emulates Chris and his mechanical malficiencies. Chris's motin should be labled "HOW NOT TO THROW A BASEBALL IF YOU HAVE ANY PLANS OR DESIRES TO PITCH AT THE NEXT LEVEL"! Beware of this guy he doesnt know which is not a bad thing altogether but he doesnt know he doesnt know, this is what makes him a danger, my opinion only. Do you have access to the full article he referenced? Id be happy to send it to you if you dont. the abstracts are free but the full articles cost money.
quote:Why did you leave my quote out in correcting your mistatement about the longhead of the biceps tendon Chris.
Because it's not material. Yes, I did oversimplify the relationship of the pieces, but that was intentional; the point I was trying to make is that strengthening the muscles of the back will do nothing to address an elbow problem.
quote:More of Chris Olearys conjecture of what he THINKS they are saying. The word pronation was never even mentioned. Your lost Chris give it. Go play pitchig guru with somebody else.
Oh please.
An extremely powerful force causes the forearm to fly out. The only way to resist this force, and to have the hand ahead of the elbow at the release point, is by powerfully pronating the forearm.
This is basic anatomy.
quote:Im going to be watching everything you post becasue your a person who could seriously lead people down the wrong path.
I'm flattered.
quote:More conjecture out of you Chris. why read between the lines. When the bottom line is this quote from the article "in the current study we were UNABLE to demonstrate a relationship between improper pitching mechanics and elbow and shoulder pain in young pitchers". Once again ole Chris Oleary knows better. He thinks he knows what they actually mean when they say one thing or another. They are flaws in the delivery, flaws that inhibit performance. The fact that they WEAKLY [the word you somehow forgot] correlate with less stress to elbow/shoulder is again moot. Once again Chris you are way in over your head. You read between the lines in hopes that you may come up with a supporting fact that is just not there. Get a clue chris the whole premise of the article was basically about pitch counts and overuse as well as types of pitches thrown.
Actually, if you read the article closely, you will see that the authors contradict themselves. The problem is that they are doing tthis research to prove the correctness of their model rather than take them where the the research leads them.
quote:Nor do you have the skills/knowledge to understand so what good is just looking and hoping. Again your is pure conjecture that is not backed up by a shred of reliable research. Unless of course you deem yourself reliable which is very very far from the truth. Chris you almost know enough to really screw somebody up. But luckily for the masses this will pass soon. As your son has NO chance to become a high level pitcher so long as you are his coach. The point is you will just sort of drift away as your sons pitching career will. Becasue in my opinion as long as hes coached by you he has a whole hell of alot to overcome. Remember Chris I will be watching you and correcting your mistatements as well as your whacky notions about pitching. Heres a closing idea for you Chris. Take the video of yourself throwing the ideal marshall pitch and send it to the armed forces MAYBE just maybe they could use it for a model on how to throw a grenade. It sure as hell dos not resemble a single item in regards to a quality baseball pitch! Dont think I have ever met somebody who knows so little but presents himself as a knowledgable credible sourse.
Again, I'm flattered by the attention.
You must feel quite threatened to have to resort to such personal attacks.
quote:Chris, can you describe the "early pronation" as it relates to hand position relative to the ball? It appears in your video that as the hand is behind the body, the palm is underneath the ball with fingers pointing up. Is that correct?
Early pronation is related more to the orientation of the forearm than to the ball. However, you can tell how pronated the forearm is by looking at the position of the ball.
In the video my hand is under the ball. This puts the forearm in a relatively supinated position. Since my forearm is supinated at this moment, I am then forced to pronate my forearm to get my palm facing the target. Pronating while the elbow is rapidly extending will protect the UCL by enabling the Pronator Teres muscle to take up some of the load that is normally focused on the UCL.
If my forearm was supinated at this point (e.g. fingers on top of the ball and showing the ball to Center Field), then my forearm would have to be extremely pronated. Since I would be pronated at this moment, I would have to supinate my forearm to get my palm to face the target. This would focus the load on the UCL.
quote:There are not to many pitchers that do not naturally pronate upon release.
Precisely. Since this is the case, then pronating at the release point must not be sufficient to protect the elbow. In order to protect the elbow, you must pronate much sooner; while the elbow is rapidly extending.
The reason this works is because the Pronator Teres muscle also arises from the Medial Epicondyle and passes over UCL. This enables the Pronator Teres to assist the UCL is protecting the integrity of the elbow joint.
quote:Chris would love to have you believe its his idea...
No I wouldn't.
I have said from the outset that Dr. Marshall was the person who helped me understand this. The only reason I started using the term "Early Pronation" was to clarify a misconception that has developed due to Tom House and Will Carroll's incomplete description of the role of pronation. They talk about the importance of pronation at the release point, which is too late to protect the elbow.
quote:The only key that early pronation is good for is lowering the elbow, dragging the arm, lack of external rotation as well as loss of potential power.
There is no reason why this would be the case. Pronating early doesn't force you to drop the elbow. Pronating early certainly doesn't force you to drag the arm; the traditional pitching motion does that. As I have said before, pronating early will actually tend to put the hand ahead of the elbow. Finally, pronating early enables you to take better advantage of the power of external and internal rotation because it puts the hand father away from the axis of rotation.
Oak,
I would stay away from weghted gloves and weighted balls.
Obviously the weight travels in your hands during motion, so it is far from the center of the body and places a great deal of stress on the shoulder and elbow.
Not to mention they change mechanics. Period.
Usually these gimmicks cause injuries over a period of time, not in a few throws...although I have seen that happen on a few occasions.
And yes, pre/rehabing the upper back muscles can help with elbow pain. To state they are not closely related simply states you do not understand how the body works.
I would stay away from weghted gloves and weighted balls.
Obviously the weight travels in your hands during motion, so it is far from the center of the body and places a great deal of stress on the shoulder and elbow.
Not to mention they change mechanics. Period.
Usually these gimmicks cause injuries over a period of time, not in a few throws...although I have seen that happen on a few occasions.
And yes, pre/rehabing the upper back muscles can help with elbow pain. To state they are not closely related simply states you do not understand how the body works.
quote:I would stay away from weghted gloves and weighted balls...Obviously the weight travels in your hands during motion, so it is far from the center of the body and places a great deal of stress on the shoulder and elbow...Not to mention they change mechanics. Period.
I disagree.
Used properly, weighted balls, weighted gloves, and wrist weights can help a pitcher build up the muscles of the arm that accelerate and decelerate it. The weights won't cause your arm to travel a path it wouldn't normally.
Generally, the idea is to just do dry throws (e.g. throwing while looking at yourself in a mirror and not while throwing a ball) with light weights (e.g. just a few pounds). You also don't want to throw weighted balls very far. Just far enough to help build up the muscles.
quote:And yes, pre/rehabing the upper back muscles can help with elbow pain. To state they are not closely related simply states you do not understand how the body works.
How exactly would it help?
Jon,
I am curious what you think is too heavy to throw? I think the advantage of the weighted balls is that the work is very specific and the arm moves slower. How much over 5oz is too much? I have seen several studies showing that weighted balls help with velocity and arm health. Most notably Dr. DeRenne's Power Baseball. He did 8 studies with overload and underload and reported next to no arm injuries with increased performance. I am sure ASMI also has a study that shows performance enhancedment but no indication of increased risk to the thrower. I know their original study was in 99 and had no injuries to report. Do you have any actual data of someone under a well thought out program that was injured at a higher rate than anyone throwing regulation balls?
Chris, the body doesn't know the difference between a long throw and a short one. It only knows the amount of force required to meet the goal of the person throwing. You can throw max out into a net ten feet away or you can lob a ball across the diamond.
I am curious what you think is too heavy to throw? I think the advantage of the weighted balls is that the work is very specific and the arm moves slower. How much over 5oz is too much? I have seen several studies showing that weighted balls help with velocity and arm health. Most notably Dr. DeRenne's Power Baseball. He did 8 studies with overload and underload and reported next to no arm injuries with increased performance. I am sure ASMI also has a study that shows performance enhancedment but no indication of increased risk to the thrower. I know their original study was in 99 and had no injuries to report. Do you have any actual data of someone under a well thought out program that was injured at a higher rate than anyone throwing regulation balls?
Chris, the body doesn't know the difference between a long throw and a short one. It only knows the amount of force required to meet the goal of the person throwing. You can throw max out into a net ten feet away or you can lob a ball across the diamond.
quote:Chris, the body doesn't know the difference between a long throw and a short one. It only knows the amount of force required to meet the goal of the person throwing. You can throw max out into a net ten feet away or you can lob a ball across the diamond.
Yes, but you don't want to try to heave a 3lb ball (or even a 1lb ball) 200 feet.
You have to scale back the force and slowly build up the muscles. The point is smooth, gradual conditioning.
I think we are now saying the same thing. It's all about the force required not the distance.
It cracks me up to hear people saying they can;t throw at home because their garage or basement isn't big enough. They can accomplish a whole bunch in a short distance in terms of arm care...IF they want to.
It cracks me up to hear people saying they can;t throw at home because their garage or basement isn't big enough. They can accomplish a whole bunch in a short distance in terms of arm care...IF they want to.
quote:I think we are now saying the same thing. It's all about the force required not the distance. It cracks me up to hear people saying they can;t throw at home because their garage or basement isn't big enough. They can accomplish a whole bunch in a short distance in terms of arm care...IF they want to.
Agreed.
You can accomplish a lot via conditioning and dry throwing.
Will weighted balls and other equipment always cause an injury? Of course not. The risk/reward ratio is far too high in my opinion.
It would be challenging for a pro who is completely dialed in to their throwing mechanics to maintain an exact delivery with a weighted ball or glove, let alone having a teenageer trying these techniques. If a pitcher cannot duplicate there delivery over and over again with a regulation baseball, why would anybody place more weight in their hand?
I am familiar with the study. As I said earlier, these injuries are not acute they happen over time.
You can get science to say anything you want. I have empirical evidence and that is all I need.
These gimmicks are similar to weighted golf clubs or when you see boxers punch with light weights. Not only are those a complete waste of time, but will do much, much more harm than good. The sad thing is these products are an easy sell and the uninformed are quick to buy them up.
How exactly would working upper back muscles help in elbow injuries?
The arm is an extension of the body. The majority of velocity is created by the trunk and legs as well as the posterior chain. Due to repetitive syndrome caused by a great deal of internal rotation (i.e throwing) posture is very poor on the majorty of pitchers. Basically the shoulder capsule is a mess. After posture breaks down, mechanics are soon to follow. This causes a slight change in arm angle which places more stress on the elbow. Then all of a sudden there is a repetitive stress injury in the elbow.
Well, this all could have been avoided if the proper measures in shoulder health were taken. This included upper back work and rotator cuff/external rotation work such as muscle snatch, cuban presses, face pulls, band circles and external rotations are used; just to name a few. 10-15 minutes a day is all it takes.
So the PT was training the upper back to strengten the weak link in the chain.
This point also proves why throwing with a dumbbell will just reinforce improper movement and further weaken posture and shoulder health.
Why would you ever want the arm to move slower in a throwing action? The SSC cycle is extremely important in throwing velocity. I think anything more or less than the actual weight of a baseball is incorrect. If you honestly think the pitcher will be able to maintain mechanics you are sadly mistaken. The naked eye may not be able to pick it up, but it will create a different movement pattern.
It would be challenging for a pro who is completely dialed in to their throwing mechanics to maintain an exact delivery with a weighted ball or glove, let alone having a teenageer trying these techniques. If a pitcher cannot duplicate there delivery over and over again with a regulation baseball, why would anybody place more weight in their hand?
I am familiar with the study. As I said earlier, these injuries are not acute they happen over time.
You can get science to say anything you want. I have empirical evidence and that is all I need.
These gimmicks are similar to weighted golf clubs or when you see boxers punch with light weights. Not only are those a complete waste of time, but will do much, much more harm than good. The sad thing is these products are an easy sell and the uninformed are quick to buy them up.
How exactly would working upper back muscles help in elbow injuries?
The arm is an extension of the body. The majority of velocity is created by the trunk and legs as well as the posterior chain. Due to repetitive syndrome caused by a great deal of internal rotation (i.e throwing) posture is very poor on the majorty of pitchers. Basically the shoulder capsule is a mess. After posture breaks down, mechanics are soon to follow. This causes a slight change in arm angle which places more stress on the elbow. Then all of a sudden there is a repetitive stress injury in the elbow.
Well, this all could have been avoided if the proper measures in shoulder health were taken. This included upper back work and rotator cuff/external rotation work such as muscle snatch, cuban presses, face pulls, band circles and external rotations are used; just to name a few. 10-15 minutes a day is all it takes.
So the PT was training the upper back to strengten the weak link in the chain.
This point also proves why throwing with a dumbbell will just reinforce improper movement and further weaken posture and shoulder health.
Why would you ever want the arm to move slower in a throwing action? The SSC cycle is extremely important in throwing velocity. I think anything more or less than the actual weight of a baseball is incorrect. If you honestly think the pitcher will be able to maintain mechanics you are sadly mistaken. The naked eye may not be able to pick it up, but it will create a different movement pattern.
quote:It would be challenging for a pro who is completely dialed in to their throwing mechanics to maintain an exact delivery with a weighted ball or glove, let alone having a teenageer trying these techniques. If a pitcher cannot duplicate there delivery over and over again with a regulation baseball, why would anybody place more weight in their hand?
Working on timing and working on strength and conditioning are two different things and should be done at two different times.
You shouldn't try to throw full-speed pitches with weighted balls or wrist weights.
quote:How exactly would working upper back muscles help in elbow injuries?...The arm is an extension of the body. The majority of velocity is created by the trunk and legs as well as the posterior chain.
Agreed.
quote:Due to repetitive syndrome caused by a great deal of internal rotation (i.e throwing) posture is very poor on the majorty of pitchers. Basically the shoulder capsule is a mess. After posture breaks down, mechanics are soon to follow. This causes a slight change in arm angle which places more stress on the elbow. Then all of a sudden there is a repetitive stress injury in the elbow.
I'm not sure if by posture your are referring to things like slouching. If so, then I don't think that's the root cause of the problem.
Rather, I believe that most injuries are caused by things like...
1. Timing problems.
2. Problematic orientations of parts of the body (e.g. supinating the elbow during the acceleration phase).
3. Lack of conditioning.
4. Employing tricks (such as extending the glove-side knee as the shoulders turn) that have short-term benefits but long-term negative consequences.
5. Inefficient ways of generating force (e.g. trying to throw too much with the arm and not enough with the body).
I think we actually agree on this for the most part. You listed lack of conditioning as number 3 of your reasons for injury.
While this is a very broad topic, posture falls into this. As soon as posture is not optimal, maximal force cannot be generated (reason 5). The body breaks down and a different movement pattern/mechanics are used. This leads to injury. Does this include some of the reasons you listed such as supination of the elbow and knee direction? Absolutely.
I was not refering to S & C work when speaking about weighted balls. The problem is throwing weighted balls is trying to combine S & C and mechanical/timing work. A no-no in my opinion.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the weighted ball topic as they go against core concepts that I believe in.
While this is a very broad topic, posture falls into this. As soon as posture is not optimal, maximal force cannot be generated (reason 5). The body breaks down and a different movement pattern/mechanics are used. This leads to injury. Does this include some of the reasons you listed such as supination of the elbow and knee direction? Absolutely.
I was not refering to S & C work when speaking about weighted balls. The problem is throwing weighted balls is trying to combine S & C and mechanical/timing work. A no-no in my opinion.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on the weighted ball topic as they go against core concepts that I believe in.
Coach Chris-
They had me working on my upper back muscles to strengthen my shoulder blade area. The shoulder blade turns the rotator cuff, which is related to the elbow in the throwing motion. The doctors said I was using too much of my elbow while throwing, so they tried to strengthen my back in order to decrease the over-use. (Sorry about the late response...)
They had me working on my upper back muscles to strengthen my shoulder blade area. The shoulder blade turns the rotator cuff, which is related to the elbow in the throwing motion. The doctors said I was using too much of my elbow while throwing, so they tried to strengthen my back in order to decrease the over-use. (Sorry about the late response...)
quote:Coach Chris-
They had me working on my upper back muscles to strengthen my shoulder blade area. The shoulder blade turns the rotator cuff, which is related to the elbow in the throwing motion. The doctors said I was using too much of my elbow while throwing, so they tried to strengthen my back in order to decrease the over-use.
Thanks for replying.
I understand what you are saying but think the advice is a little dubious (but not harmful).
The elbows of every user of the traditional pitching motion do basically the same thing; it bounces back and then rapidly extends 90 to 135 degrees.
Im my opinion, you have to deal with elbow problems by altering what the elbow does. You can take some of the load off the the rotator cuff by increasing the efficiency with which you get power from the rotation of your hips, torso, and shoulders.
But this is unlikely to fix the problem with your elbow.
