Eric cressey article on pitcher overuse

Saw that a few days ago, a lot of good information there.

Here is my biggest problem.

First I should say this... I am not for or against specializing in baseball.  At young ages I think it is good for kids to participate in more than one sport or activity.  I would like to know which college coach or MLB club would refuse someone like a Zack Greinke because he didn't play other sports.  That would be one very stubborn and ignorant coach.

how many kids out there are specializing in basketball or football?  Is the NBA against this?  How many potentially outstanding baseball players no longer play our game because they specialize in other sports?  Is that in the best interest of the game of baseball?  It has been proven many times over that baseball wants the top football prospects if they are also a top baseball prospect.  

Lastly, the large number of MLB players that did concentrate on baseball actually did participate in other sports until they got into high school.

so bottom line... For many duel sports were good... For many specialization was good.  The proof is right there on the MLB rosters!

Interesting article.  I agree it didn't make much sense to have the heavy showcase season during what is typically the shutdown period.  That suggested change made a lot of sense to me.  He also touched on the problem of over lapping sports in the South.  There are some teams/coaches that want kids to be available on day one and have zero other commitments during the baseball season, i.e. no other sports.  I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's a fact.

 On the one hand people harp and harp that under 14u is about fun and enjoying being a kid without the pressures of recruiting or future plans, they should just be allowed to be kids. I believe this 100%.

On the other hand, if your kid wants to play at the next level one day it's very important to steer them away from playing all this baseball when they are younger, it's just hurting their arms. I believe this 100%.

Catch 22 much?  Plan for your kid to go to the next level and you MUST protect his arm by not letting him specialize in only baseball, OR, let the kid be a kid who just wants to play baseball and quit thinking about the future, just let them play what they want to play?

99+% of 6u little league players will never see the MLB so where do you draw the line?  We have had this debate 100 times on here.  Yes, multi-sport athletes are more well rounded athletes. But telling a 9u/11u/13u "I know you love baseball but you need to take a break now for the health of your arm and go pick up another sport"...yeah...I have never and will never take my sons favorite sport/activity/social outlet away from him to "protect" him.  Sounds like cutting off your nose to spite your face stuff right there.  Maybe I have doomed him from a possible MLB career, but I have had one happy kid

In Texas 6A high schools, Basketball coach wants you playing in AAU in spring/summer, Football coach wants you playing 7 on 7 in Spring, Baseball coach wants you in Fall ball and all want you at weightlifting as well as other workouts.  None are accepting of you missing, unless, well, your Bo Jackson.

The baseball/football combo can work if the coaches agree and the player is good enough.

What is meant by "early specialization" . . . does that mean specialization pre-high school? Specialization during high school? Specialization after high school?

For example, if you click through the link in Cressey's blog post to the Dr. Andrews interview, it's clear that Dr. Andrews is talking about ages 12 or 13 (e.g., "I want parents and coaches to realize the implications of putting a 12- or 13-year-old through the type of athletic work done by a 25-year-old"). Cressey, on the other hand, seems to be talking about high school (e.g., "State athletic associations in warm weather climates need to structure high school seasons to allow for athletes to compete in multiple sports.").  That is logic I don't understand . . . I mean, an 18-year-old high school senior playing only one sport = bad; a 19-year-old college freshman playing only one sport = normal.

These discussions make my head spin. If your "that good", what difference does it make whether you played 1 sport or 10? I don't think it makes any difference, over use aside, if your good your good.

Latin Americans account for nearly 30% of all major league players.  When is someone going to take that into account?

Most of these Latin players specialize AND play year around baseball.  Mostly unsupervised at the younger ages.  Just think... 30% and most of those come from the Dominican Republic.  The Dominican Republic is smaller than most states.

Can anyone name a Dominican Football player?  How about a Dominican Basketball Player? How about any Dominican athlete other than a baseball player.

Guess what, they get hurt just like the players here get hurt.  Some got hurt  and it ended their chance.  But 30% of all Major League players???  Doesn't that tell us anything at all?  It is a very small poverty stricken country with a lot less medical capabilities.

Some argue this is due to players being desperate to lead a better life.  Others say it is because of steroids.  No one claims that they are better athletes.  I say 30% is an astounding number no matter how you look at it.

I think it is not so much about playing multiple sports than it is about not throwing for 2-3 months (which means no pitching for 4 months since you have to get back to strength). Multi sports means a larger chance kids won't touch a baseball for some months (Really not just not  pitching but also no throwing).

But you can also have a break without other sports. Cressey pitchers will stop throwing and instead focus on lifting and specific exercises to get stronger).

I

Go44dad posted:

In Texas 6A high schools, Basketball coach wants you playing in AAU in spring/summer, Football coach wants you playing 7 on 7 in Spring, Baseball coach wants you in Fall ball and all want you at weightlifting as well as other workouts.  None are accepting of you missing, unless, well, your Bo Jackson.

The baseball/football combo can work if the coaches agree and the player is good enough.

Same in California. At the largest high schools, Fall/Spring sports can possibly work, but it is extremely difficult to make Fall/Winter or Winter/Spring work. There are always exceptions (e.g., Giancarlo Stanton was all-CIF (similar to all-state) in football, basketball, and baseball) but the vast majority of kids are single-sport by sophomore year. This differs in the lower classifications, but for Div. 1 (similar to Texas 6A) it's the general rule.

I've read a few of these and there is a distinction that is rarely made, and that is that because a child may only play one sport, that doesn't automatically mean they play it year round.  

People should be careful not to conflate "specialization" or one sport players with year-round players.  This article does specifically mention year round playing or throwing, so that's not necessarily the case here, but it often is. 

I have two boys, 10 and 13(11/14 in March/April), and younger son also plays football.  Older son stopped tennis last year, but not really interested in other sports.  He's tried basketball, wrestling, but not interested.  There is nothing wrong with that, but often get questioned or implied that this is harming him in some manner...it is not, he doesn't play year round.  

Anyway, wanted to make that distinction.  I also don't really know if the experts know what the best course of action is, other than inaction.

Once again, regarding specialization in high school.  I can give hundreds of cases each way that are in the Big Leagues right now!

i personally favor multi sport athletes for several reasons, but the truth is there are many that only play baseball in high school.

I also favor arm care and rest.  I actually think Eric Cressy's article was good.  There is some great stuff in there.

People need to understand arm care, at the same time, they need to understand risk and reward.  Perhaps one of the reasons so many Latin players make it to the top is because they simply are willing to risk more.

People see an event held in January and assume that pitcher is throwing year around.  Why is that?  Taking time off doesn't have to include any certain months.  I like limits, and I like common sense even more.

The one thing that I believe everyone agrees on is that every pitcher and player is different.  That is my only issue when it comes to arm care.  We can't generalize and claim everyone is the same.  At the same time we need guidelines to protect against stupidity.

so in my opinion... Is it stupid to pitch in January?  Yes for some, no for others.  A lot depends on what happened in Sept thru Dec. and when your season starts, and what condition you are in. There is risk involved every time a pitcher takes the mound.  Is the potential reward worth the risk?  I can't answer that.

PGStaff posted:

…Some argue this is due to players being desperate to lead a better life.  Others say it is because of steroids.  No one claims that they are better athletes.  I say 30% is an astounding number no matter how you look at it.

Could it possibly be that because adults aren’t nearly as involved at the younger ages they learn to play the game better and with more passion, then don’t use up a lot of resources traveling all over the place to play in showcases as they reach maturity?

Stats4Gnats posted:

Could it possibly be that because adults aren’t nearly as involved at the younger ages they learn to play the game better and with more passion, then don’t use up a lot of resources traveling all over the place to play in showcases as they reach maturity?

Not sure about the passion part, but I do think there's something to the unsupervised argument. I can't image any kid playing with his friends in the park throwing 100 hard pitches in a pick up game. Kids take turns pitching. Kids play around with junk-balls. Kids get bored.

I don't recall anyone's arm ever getting sore when I played ball with my friends as a kid, and we played all spring and summer (on top of Little League).

PGStaff posted:

Latin Americans account for nearly 30% of all major league players.  When is someone going to take that into account?

 

My first thought was that these are obviously all position players, since the pitchers would all be worn out.

Wrong. I checked and 56% of the active MLB guys are pitchers.

I've read his blog post a few days ago as well.  I find Cressey's assertion that Northern shoulders are stronger than Southern shoulders a little lacking in data.  I'm sure he's a good guy but I doubt there is a scientific study which supports.  The other interesting comment was an indirect criticism of Jupiter in October.  He states most top players don't even attend these showcases.  He must not be watching the same tournament I watched.  I saw most of the pitchers featured among this year's 2016 prospect list at the event and certainly the vast majority of position players.   They go to the tournament because they love the game. Also, these guys aren't throwing solid from January through October. 

I just looked on the FL High School Assoc website.  In Florida, the season starts with the first games in February, not January.  They can begin to practice in January 18.  That said, I wonder why playing 30 games from February through May (Southern states) is worse than condensing 30 games from late March to May (North)?  

MIDATLANTICDAD,

Guess what, the percentage of pitchers having TJ surgery from the Dominican is exactly the same percentage of pitchers having TJ surgery here.  Since they play year around, shouldn't it be much higher?

Stats,

We have well over 100 Dominican's attend our showcases every year.  In fact we just finished a showcase in Florida that had many Latin Americans including a dozen or so Dominicans.  Several of them are pitchers 15-16 years old.  Dominicans can sign at age 16.  Couple were throwing in the 90s, one up to 94 that will end up very happy he was there.

The idea that Dominicans don't showcase would be wrong.  If anything the top Dominican players showcase as much as the top Players here.

PGStaff posted:

MIDATLANTICDAD,

Guess what, the percentage of pitchers having TJ surgery from the Dominican is exactly the same percentage of pitchers having TJ surgery here.  Since they play year around, shouldn't it be much higher?

 

I was wondering if the young DR pitchers were being used up and tossed aside, with no opportunity to get TJS. But the fact that 56% of the DR players in the MLB are pitchers totally flies in the face of that thinking. If pitching year round in the DR isn't tearing up UCLs any worse than in the USA, then we could probably learn something from what they're doing.

Jim T. posted:

…That said, I wonder why playing 30 games from February through May (Southern states) is worse than condensing 30 games from late March to May (North)?  

That’s an interesting question. In our section, CIFSJS, we’re limited to 27 regular season games + playoff games. But that doesn’t mean all of the 10 different sections here in Ca have the same limits, or that every state has the same limit. I’ve never checked to see how many games are allowed in each state, but I do know that some northern states play significantly fewer games than we do. Does anyone have a comprehensive list of how many games each state is allowed to play?

PGStaff posted:

MIDATLANTICDAD,

Guess what, the percentage of pitchers having TJ surgery from the Dominican is exactly the same percentage of pitchers having TJ surgery here.  Since they play year around, shouldn't it be much higher?

Is that only the pitchers who are signed to pro contracts or all the pitchers in the DR regardless of level?

Stats,

We have well over 100 Dominican's attend our showcases every year.  In fact we just finished a showcase in Florida that had many Latin Americans including a dozen or so Dominicans.  Several of them are pitchers 15-16 years old.  Dominicans can sign at age 16.  Couple were throwing in the 90s, one up to 94 that will end up very happy he was there.

The idea that Dominicans don't showcase would be wrong.  If anything the top Dominican players showcase as much as the top Players here.

100, 500, or 5,000 isn’t the point. What percentage of all players attending any of your showcases are from the DR? That brings up another question. If the DR is such a poverty stricken country, where are the players coming to the showcases getting the $$$$? It seems to me that between the air fare, lodging, food, and cost of the showcase we're talking well over $1,000 minimum.

JMO, but I believe that there are more MLB DR players because they come here at 18 and receive ML instruction from that point going forward. US HS players tend to go to college first.  Realistically,   unless a HS player got a significant bonus, the pay at the entry level is unacceptable for most everyone.  It takes 4-5 years to develop a ML player,  most players who are drafted out of college are not MLB ready while the the Dominican player has already been protected is approaching free agency.  hey have to be protected

I like Cressey, I think that he makes some good points but I don't agree with them all.  I do believe, and always will that young players should not specialize, one of the reasons why its good to develop other skills and work other muscle groups. 

Stats4Gnats posted:

Jim T. posted:

…That said, I wonder why playing 30 games from February through May (Southern states) is worse than condensing 30 games from late March to May (North)?  

 

That’s an interesting question. In our section, CIFSJS, we’re limited to 27 regular season games + playoff games. But that doesn’t mean all of the 10 different sections here in Ca have the same limits, or that every state has the same limit. I’ve never checked to see how many games are allowed in each state, but I do know that some northern states play significantly fewer games than we do. Does anyone have a comprehensive list of how many games each state is allowed to play?

Comprehensive list...no.  Public schools in Virginia are allowed to have two scrimmages, and 20 regular season games.  This number also includes any invitational or spring break tournaments.   Playoff games for conference, regional, and state tournaments are one and done, and are in addition to the regular season number.  I'm not aware of a minimum for the Va. privates.

TPM posted:

JMO, but I believe that there are more MLB DR players because they come here at 18 and receive ML instruction from that point going forward. US HS players tend to go to college first.  Realistically,   unless a HS player got a significant bonus, the pay at the entry level is unacceptable for most everyone.  It takes 4-5 years to develop a ML player,  most players who are drafted out of college are not MLB ready while the the Dominican player has already been protected is approaching free agency.  

 

I don't agree with either of the bolded points. The best of the US develop no different then the best of the Dominicans, I don't buy for a minute the ML coaching and academies do a better job teaching then the our colleges. They operate under different rules, time restrains from training limitations and mandatory classroom time. if you want to tell me the Latin academy model the MLB teams have down there is superior due to the fact it is solely a baseball factory fair enough but not because of the quality of coaching. IMO

The Dominican's who are 20ish protected and approaching FA are no different then Trout, Harper etc and none of those are the norm.  

The biggest difference in IMO is the lack of any other viable option for a better life...our kids here are taught to go to school, be well rounded, play other sports, prepare for life after baseball. on the islands they are trained for this is the only chance you have to live a better life and you your whole world depends on it...I see an obvious difference there.

One of our mission statements is to promote the game of baseball at every level.

A question...

Is baseball the only sport where leaders promote multi-sport participation?

Do the leaders in the NFL and NBA promote multi-sport participation?

In most cases at the HS level Football and Basketball are more glamorous sports, drawing the largest crowds.  A good athlete will do well at most sports.  But the truth is, reaching the highest level of any sport requires certain things.  Basketball players at the highest level are amazing to me. I can't see any reason why playing baseball would make them better Basketball players.  I can see a reason why playing more baseball would make them a better baseball player.

If it were possible I would tell every kid that is a decent athlete that he should play baseball.  Heck, even those that are not good athletes, I would tell them to play baseball. If that happened baseball once again would be our national past time.  

That said, I like multi sport athletes.  But only if baseball is one of those sports.  At the same time, I have no problem with those who want to specialize in any one sport, including baseball.  Besides you don't have to play in any organized sport in order to do something different.  I mean how many kids out there haven't shot a basketball or caught a football?

Lots of good points made here from both sides.  I can only speak for one, single individual.  My son played every sport possible through age 10.  He played baseball, football, basketball, golf and even tried some tennis.  In middle school, he played baseball, football and basketball.  We did play some fall baseball and yes he did pitch.  There were extended periods of time where he did not pitch or even throw a baseball.  I can't give you specifics because I didn't keep track of this info.  I did coach him through age 12 so I am acutely aware that he was not overused or abused as a pitcher.  We set pitch counts when the rules actually went by innings pitched.  I thought that was a stupid way to "protect" a pitcher.  He didn't throw breaking pitches until he was around 14 or so.  He played basketball and baseball in 9th grade.  He loves basketball, but the coaching was horrible so he decided he didn't want to play basketball after 9th grade.

At 16, he felt a "pop" in his elbow while making a throw from the outfield during a try out for USA Baseball.  He was diagnosed with a UCL tear, but Dr. Andrews felt that the injury could be treated non-surgically.  After 5 months of rehab, he returned for his sophomore baseball season and played without incident for the next 2 years.  He played spring baseball and rolled right into summer baseball and also played fall baseball.  My best estimate is that he shut down November and December.  I am not saying he didn't throw a baseball at all during that time period, but he wasn't on a throwing program during that time and he certainly did not pitch at all.  He would continue to hit and probably would throw a little indoors here and there just goofing around.

In the middle of his senior HS season, he threw a complete game which consisted of 89 pitches.  It was his best outing of the year.  He woke up the next morning and told me he thought he had torn his UCL again.  I didn't see how that was possible because he had no complaints of pain or soreness when he went to bed the night before.  His team trainer saw him a couple days later and felt like it was just soreness.  No joint mobility or weakness was noted.  After a couple weeks, he still couldn't throw without feeling a "sensation" in his elbow.  We saw a sports ortho that found nothing wrong.  I insisted on an MRI and the doc finally gave in, begrudgingly.  At that time my son was being given serious consideration for the draft and I wanted to make sure there was no structural damage and I knew this would be an issue with any team interested in him.  The MRI was read as normal.  As a matter of fact, they said the ligament looked much better than it did in the MRIs that were done 2 years prior.  We decided to shut him down anyway and he only DH'd for his HS team the rest of the year.  So from April 10 until he arrived on campus for college and started their throwing program under supervision by their trainers in July, he didn't touch a baseball.  His throwing progressed without any issues at all.  His long toss and flat ground went smooth.  His first bullpen from the mound, he felt the "sensation" again.  He was diagnosed with ulnar nerve entrapment and had ulnar nerve transposition in mid August.  It caused him to miss his first fall practice, but he rehabbed hard and got all the way back to mound work a second time by early December.  No pain or issues at all.  On the 5th pitch off the mound of his first pen, he felt a "pop" with pain.  This was the first time he had felt any pain with the exception of the tear at 16.  A MRI confirmed the tear and he had surgery on December 16.

I'm sorry for the length of this post, but I just wanted to give one person's personal journey and say there really is no rhyme or reason why some guys get injured and some don't.  Obviously overuse and those things increase your chances of injury.  Trust me, I beat myself up the first time he was injured, but Dr. Andrews put me at ease.  He explained that the elbow cannot withstand much over 85mph.  So all the high velo guys are just one pitch from injury.  He said if doing the "right" thing was all that was necessary, then why do we have MLB guys getting injured?  They have access to the best information and best training modalities.  It could simply be structural issues.  Anyway, I'm not saying I don't agree with all the above posts.  I just don't think it is as simple as take 3 months off every year and don't throw over 100 pitches per outing and you will be fine.  The pitching motion is such a complex and un-natural movement.  As long as athletes push their body to maximize output, there will be areas that break down.  

Thanks youngun..tough story.  I have told my son in the past that he can do all the right things, and arm injuries can still occur.

When I come across a really salient baseball story/point/issue I print it out and put on my son's desk.  I am doing the same with the post above.  He got a lot of printouts on the thread on grades.

PGStaff posted:

One of our mission statements is to promote the game of baseball at every level.

A question...

Is baseball the only sport where leaders promote multi-sport participation?

Do the leaders in the NFL and NBA promote multi-sport participation?

In most cases at the HS level Football and Basketball are more glamorous sports, drawing the largest crowds.  A good athlete will do well at most sports.  But the truth is, reaching the highest level of any sport requires certain things.  Basketball players at the highest level are amazing to me. I can't see any reason why playing baseball would make them better Basketball players.  I can see a reason why playing more baseball would make them a better baseball player.

If it were possible I would tell every kid that is a decent athlete that he should play baseball.  Heck, even those that are not good athletes, I would tell them to play baseball. If that happened baseball once again would be our national past time.  

That said, I like multi sport athletes.  But only if baseball is one of those sports.  At the same time, I have no problem with those who want to specialize in any one sport, including baseball.  Besides you don't have to play in any organized sport in order to do something different.  I mean how many kids out there haven't shot a basketball or caught a football?

There are some disadvantages that baseball has that makes using multi sports a good option:

1) baseball is an unilateral sport that promotes body imbalances because you usually always right rotate to the same side, use the same arm for throwing and usually only back to front. Conditioning experts like cressey can testament that high level baseball players ( especially pitchers) have some of the worst dysbalances among all athletes, especially in the shoulder area but also hips and rotary muscles. Other sports can help fight that (but they are not the only option of course).

2) baseball is a pretty static sport at lower levels. You don't move around much at many positions until you move to higher levels. Also the action to waiting ratio is pretty bad (only 4-5 at bats and a couple plays) That means baseball is just not very effective in building many athletic traits. Again other sports are more effective building those traits needed for high level baseball. Yes you can also acquire those skills by using other drills but those are terribly boring and half an hour of soccer or basketball does the same and is a lot more fun.

Im not saying you need to play multiple sports though. If you train well and not just hit and throw (terribly one sided activities that are not healthy for the body) that works too, but other sports at least until age 14 or so are a quick and easy way to get athletic.

the most important thing is that you take those consecutive months off. Not saying it has to be November to January either, just make sure you do not throw for 2-3 consecutive months. If you take of September to November and start throwing in December a January showcase must not be the worst thing, what is bad and is to pitch until late October and then January again. 

Maybe you could even pitch November and January if you take 3 months off in the summer, although I don't think it is realistic that a kid doesn't touch a baseball all summer.

playing a winter sport is just an easy way to develope athleticism, take out some of the baseball one sidedness and take the baseball out of a kids hands but it is not the only way to go, just the easiest and most feasible for most.

old_school posted:

TPM posted:

JMO, but I believe that there are more MLB DR players because they come here at 18 and receive ML instruction from that point going forward. US HS players tend to go to college first.  Realistically,   unless a HS player got a significant bonus, the pay at the entry level is unacceptable for most everyone.  It takes 4-5 years to develop a ML player,  most players who are drafted out of college are not MLB ready while the the Dominican player has already been protected is approaching free agency.  

 

I don't agree with either of the bolded points. The best of the US develop no different then the best of the Dominicans, I don't buy for a minute the ML coaching and academies do a better job teaching then the our colleges. They operate under different rules, time restrains from training limitations and mandatory classroom time. if you want to tell me the Latin academy model the MLB teams have down there is superior due to the fact it is solely a baseball factory fair enough but not because of the quality of coaching. IMO

The Dominican's who are 20ish protected and approaching FA are no different then Trout, Harper etc and none of those are the norm.  

The biggest difference in IMO is the lack of any other viable option for a better life...our kids here are taught to go to school, be well rounded, play other sports, prepare for life after baseball. on the islands they are trained for this is the only chance you have to live a better life and you your whole world depends on it...I see an obvious difference there.

Old School - I understand your point, but I might put a slightly different spin on it.  I applaud your defense of the quality of college coaching, I have a pitcher in college right now so I hope you are correct.  I don't think its a matter of quality so much as it is a matter of motivation.  Pro coaches at low level professional ball are about development.  College coaches are about winning right now and keeping their jobs.  The motivation to overuse a pitcher in a short college season is pretty real, while a minor league coach is under no such constraint.  I wouldn't (or perhaps more accurately couldn't) argue that quality of teaching is different, I just think that the coaches on each side have different motivations and goals.

9and7dad posted:

old_school posted:

TPM posted:

JMO, but I believe that there are more MLB DR players because they come here at 18 and receive ML instruction from that point going forward. US HS players tend to go to college first.  Realistically,   unless a HS player got a significant bonus, the pay at the entry level is unacceptable for most everyone.  It takes 4-5 years to develop a ML player,  most players who are drafted out of college are not MLB ready while the the Dominican player has already been protected is approaching free agency.  

 

I don't agree with either of the bolded points. The best of the US develop no different then the best of the Dominicans, I don't buy for a minute the ML coaching and academies do a better job teaching then the our colleges. They operate under different rules, time restrains from training limitations and mandatory classroom time. if you want to tell me the Latin academy model the MLB teams have down there is superior due to the fact it is solely a baseball factory fair enough but not because of the quality of coaching. IMO

The Dominican's who are 20ish protected and approaching FA are no different then Trout, Harper etc and none of those are the norm.  

The biggest difference in IMO is the lack of any other viable option for a better life...our kids here are taught to go to school, be well rounded, play other sports, prepare for life after baseball. on the islands they are trained for this is the only chance you have to live a better life and you your whole world depends on it...I see an obvious difference there.

Old School - I understand your point, but I might put a slightly different spin on it.  I applaud your defense of the quality of college coaching, I have a pitcher in college right now so I hope you are correct.  I don't think its a matter of quality so much as it is a matter of motivation.  Pro coaches at low level professional ball are about development.  College coaches are about winning right now and keeping their jobs.  The motivation to overuse a pitcher in a short college season is pretty real, while a minor league coach is under no such constraint.  I wouldn't (or perhaps more accurately couldn't) argue that quality of teaching is different, I just think that the coaches on each side have different motivations and goals.

This is fair and legit concern. Being that neither of my sons are pitchers anymore that entire thought was lost on me....which based on the tread is kind of weak in its own right...LOL sorry brain lock on my part.

I do think the coaching in general terms is very good from broad based perspective. In that I include travel programs that help the boys. I know my u17 son is mature long beyond his actual age just from what, where and who he has been with playing the game.

old_school posted:

9and7dad posted:

old_school posted:

TPM posted:

JMO, but I believe that there are more MLB DR players because they come here at 18 and receive ML instruction from that point going forward. US HS players tend to go to college first.  Realistically,   unless a HS player got a significant bonus, the pay at the entry level is unacceptable for most everyone.  It takes 4-5 years to develop a ML player,  most players who are drafted out of college are not MLB ready while the the Dominican player has already been protected is approaching free agency.  

 

I don't agree with either of the bolded points. The best of the US develop no different then the best of the Dominicans, I don't buy for a minute the ML coaching and academies do a better job teaching then the our colleges. They operate under different rules, time restrains from training limitations and mandatory classroom time. if you want to tell me the Latin academy model the MLB teams have down there is superior due to the fact it is solely a baseball factory fair enough but not because of the quality of coaching. IMO

The Dominican's who are 20ish protected and approaching FA are no different then Trout, Harper etc and none of those are the norm.  

The biggest difference in IMO is the lack of any other viable option for a better life...our kids here are taught to go to school, be well rounded, play other sports, prepare for life after baseball. on the islands they are trained for this is the only chance you have to live a better life and you your whole world depends on it...I see an obvious difference there.

Old School - I understand your point, but I might put a slightly different spin on it.  I applaud your defense of the quality of college coaching, I have a pitcher in college right now so I hope you are correct.  I don't think its a matter of quality so much as it is a matter of motivation.  Pro coaches at low level professional ball are about development.  College coaches are about winning right now and keeping their jobs.  The motivation to overuse a pitcher in a short college season is pretty real, while a minor league coach is under no such constraint.  I wouldn't (or perhaps more accurately couldn't) argue that quality of teaching is different, I just think that the coaches on each side have different motivations and goals.

This is fair and legit concern. Being that neither of my sons are pitchers anymore that entire thought was lost on me....which based on the tread is kind of weak in its own right...LOL sorry brain lock on my part.

I do think the coaching in general terms is very good from broad based perspective. In that I include travel programs that help the boys. I know my u17 son is mature long beyond his actual age just from what, where and who he has been with playing the game.

With all due respect, the college game and the pro game are entirely different from one another. There are very few college coaches who can prepare any player for the next level to be able to make an MLB roster right after college.  There are exceptions to that rule, and those exceptions are usually the higher draftees.   I don't beleive that when it comes to pitchers that those from the DR have less issues than others.  Though players are entering younger and younger, it still takes time to develop, years actually.   But they have and did spend time in the system and they are moved up because the instruction still continues and is different on the ML level.  You don't think that Trout works with Pujols?  That right there is a superior education in itself!

BTW,  most hitters do go off to college because they do not want to do their at bats in a lower level team (low A). And I never stated that the Dominicans were more talented than US players.

My point was that DR players enter the US at 18 to play ball, by 22,23 they have been in the system for 4-5 years. I did ask what percentage of those players do or do not make a ML team, but by 22-23 the team has put in a significant amount of time and money and that means if they are able the team is willing to place them on a ML roster, which could be why there are 30% on a MLB roster. Most US players will not hang in there that long unless they have made a 40 or 25 man roster (more mone at some point in their career.

FWIW... Dominicans can sign at 16 years old and many of the best ones do sign at 16.  Actually I believe they can still be 15 if their 16th birthday is within 45 days of the July deadline.

BTW, we had a Cuban pitcher in Jupiter this year, his name was Sierra.  The Dodgers just signed him for somewhere around $35 million today.  Forget how old he is, but he wasn't very young.

Do they begin low A at 16?  My understanding is they must be 18 to play here.  The Cuban player is 24.  

I am not understanding what him signing has to do with the topic?  Its apparent that ML teams are more interested in the foreign market and pay a lot of money for those players. Especially the Dodgers who throw ridiculous money at these players.

I was thinking, maybe that's why we have so many players with issues. The lure of the big $$$$ scholarships or draft causes overuse, not intentionally.  

I have to agree with Dominik, baseball isn't a sport where you move around a lot and use different muscles groups.  For younger players they should be playing other sports, not all at once, I am sure that's agreed.  Good response from a foreign player.

There are two ladies at my work whose preteens both have casts on their elbows, one had serious surgery. They have been playing year round consistently since a very young age.  Maybe this doesn't happen to latin players at a young age, but it sure does happen here...a lot.

The Cuban pitcher was brought up because he was here pitching in LATE OCTOBER.  I mentioned understanding Risk and reward...  His risk was obvious... His reward was over $30 million.  So his risk had the potential for a much larger reward than say the kids of the women you met.

Most kids that sign out of high school and young Latin players start in Rookie Ball.  Low A is typically the third level or the first full season level.  Some young Dominicans start in the Dominican League.   Surely you know this.

I agree completely and have said that repeatably, I like to see kids play multiple sports.  Especially at the younger ages.  However this should only happen if they enjoy and want to play other sports.  Not because it will develop them into better baseball players or athletes.

Once again, there are many Major League players that only played one sport (baseball) in high school.  This year's draft will once again have several first round picks that played baseball only in high school.  And yes, there are many that played more than one sport in high school.  The NBA is full of one sport specialist.

Most every baseball trainer will put together programs that will equalize muscle in both sides of the body.  If we look at what people would say is the position that requires the most talent it would be shortstop.  What percentage of Major League shortstops played other sports in high school? Of course that might be misleading because of the number of ML shortstops from Latin America.  Would they have been better yet had they participated in multi sports.  Or is it because they played baseball year around and are thousands of ground balls ahead of the stateside players.

Bottom line, I am for kids doing whatever sports they enjoy.  When it is done for any other reason it is the wrong reason.  

Regarding TJ surgery, we know what the problems are.  Still we see TJ surgery performed on pitchers like Lucas Giolito who if anything never pitched a lot.  Took every precaution, more than plenty of time off and rest.   We also know many pitchers who throw hard, throw many pitches for a long period of time, even played year around when younger, and even played other positions, like Zack Greinke.  What I want to see is a study on why those (they are the majority) healthy pitchers seem to stay healthy when so many others have TJ surgery.  I think it is very important that we study both sides, those that require surgery and those that don't.  We might actually learn something that can help.

BTW, does anyone have the statistics regarding the number of kids younger than 16 that have had TJ surgery?  I honestly have never heard of any and we are in the baseball business.  However I'm sure there have been some.  Does anyone here know of any?

I do think I have now got off the topic, but there is a relationship.

The Cuban pitcher was brought up because he was here pitching in LATE OCTOBER.  I mentioned understanding Risk and reward...  His risk was obvious... His reward was over $30 million.  So his risk had the potential for a much larger reward than say the kids of the women you met.

Most kids that sign out of high school and young Latin players start in Rookie Ball.  Low A is typically the third level or the first full season level.  Some young Dominicans start in the Dominican League.   Surely you know this.

I agree completely and have said that repeatably, I like to see kids play multiple sports.  Especially at the younger ages.  However this should only happen if they enjoy and want to play other sports.  Not because it will develop them into better baseball players or athletes.

Once again, there are many Major League players that only played one sport (baseball) in high school.  This year's draft will once again have several first round picks that played baseball only in high school.  And yes, there are many that played more than one sport in high school.  The NBA is full of one sport specialist.

Most every baseball trainer will put together programs that will equalize muscle in both sides of the body.  If we look at what people would say is the position that requires the most talent it would be shortstop.  What percentage of Major League shortstops played other sports in high school? Of course that might be misleading because of the number of ML shortstops from Latin America.  Would they have been better yet had they participated in multi sports.  Or is it because they played baseball year around and are thousands of ground balls ahead of the stateside players.

Bottom line, I am for kids doing whatever sports they enjoy.  When it is done for any other reason it is the wrong reason.  

Regarding TJ surgery, we know what the problems are.  Still we see TJ surgery performed on pitchers like Lucas Giolito who if anything never pitched a lot.  Took every precaution, more than plenty of time off and rest.   We also know many pitchers who throw hard, throw many pitches for a long period of time, even played year around when younger, and even played other positions, like Zack Greinke.  What I want to see is a study on why those (they are the majority) healthy pitchers seem to stay healthy when so many others have TJ surgery.  I think it is very important that we study both sides, those that require surgery and those that don't.  We might actually learn something that can help.

BTW, does anyone have the statistics regarding the number of kids younger than 16 that have had TJ surgery?  I honestly have never heard of any and we are in the baseball business.  However I'm sure there have been some.  Does anyone here know of any?

I do think I have now got off the topic, but there is a relationship.

Also while the lure of $$$$ might be a reason for risk.  The main reason, by far, for overuse is the lure of winning.  Sometimes even winning a game that has little importance.  The stories we hear of  pitchers throwing 150 or more pitches have very little to do with the lure of dollars or scholarships.  They have everything to do with a coach that is willing to ruin someone's arm in order to win a game.

I think we got off the topic. I just don't see a correlation between the cuban player going to be offered millions as a free agent vs young kids not resting arms. I don't care about Cuban free agents but I do care about young players having injuries who love the game before they reach HS. 

The Cuban player is 24 years old looking for a team to sign him.  What risk was there ?  I do not see a risk pitching a few innings late October. 

PGStaff posted:

Also while the lure of $$$$ might be a reason for risk.  The main reason, by far, for overuse is the lure of winning.  Sometimes even winning a game tha t has little importance.  The stories we hear of  pitchers throwing 150 or more pitches have very little to do with the lure of dollars or scholarships.  They have everything to do with a coach that is willing to ruin someone's arm in order to win a game.

I don't dispute that. However there are many players in the recruiting phase who will attend showcases and many camps  all through winter when spring and summer or fall is fine. The mode of thinking is that they have to be continually seen to get a scholarship, or seen by scouts week after week.  

Then there is the results, both good and bad.  I could put together a list of thousands who would say a certain camp or event in the winter was what started the recruiting interest or scouting interest.

Now we don't see many kids that look like they are not ready to perform.  Not ready would be those that are not working at their game.  Also those pitchers who haven't taken time off.  

We see a lot of former Major Leaguers that bring their sons to these off season events.  This year that included Mike Matheny and Roy Holloday's sons.  Wouldn't you think they would know better?  Or maybe they know something about this stuff.

 Just the other day I was watching some of our pro players competing in Australia on the MLB Network.  

Also, we see very few Pre high school kids at these off season events.  And we certainly aren't talking pitchers or players that are taking time off into participating.  We only hold two showcase events in the winter.  However, I know there are many others and a lot of college camps. Most of he kids we see seem to really enjoy it.  I like watching kids have fun.  Everyone is aware of arm abuse.  We even finish up with coach pitch games on the last day.  These events have a very long history, one being the very first showcase PG ever held.  So there is a history, we know what has happened to every player.  In no way is it a TJ victim list.  Those that did have TJ like Taillion would be the first to say they injured their arm in other ways.  

Not sure if this is off topic or not.  My point is there is not one way to be successful.  You don't have to be a mult-sport athlete to be successful at baseball.  I don't know a single coach that won't recruit a baseball only player if that player is extremely talented.  There is no MLB organization that won't draft a baseball only kid.  I get tired of reading that stuff, it is misleading.  It doesn't matter if they like multi-sport players, they all want the best baseball players.  I like multi-sport kids myself, but when we rank players it is only based on baseball.  Maybe in the case of two players being equal we might give an edge to the multi-sport kid.  But the very best prospect in every draft is just as likely to be a multi-sport or a baseball only. Only advantage is in leverage if the draft pick is a scholarship DI football or basketball player. There are a few of those type.

TPM posted:

 

With all due respect, the college game and the pro game are entirely different from one another. There are very few college coaches who can prepare any player for the next level to be able to make an MLB roster right after college.  There are exceptions to that rule, and those exceptions are usually the higher draftees.   I don't beleive that when it comes to pitchers that those from the DR have less issues than others.  Though players are entering younger and younger, it still takes time to develop, years actually.   But they have and did spend time in the system and they are moved up because the instruction still continues and is different on the ML level.  You don't think that Trout works with Pujols?  That right there is a superior education in itself!

BTW,  most hitters do go off to college because they do not want to do their at bats in a lower level team (low A). And I never stated that the Dominicans were more talented than US players.

My point was that DR players enter the US at 18 to play ball, by 22,23 they have been in the system for 4-5 years. I did ask what percentage of those players do or do not make a ML team, but by 22-23 the team has put in a significant amount of time and money and that means if they are able the team is willing to place them on a ML roster, which could be why there are 30% on a MLB roster. Most US players will not hang in there that long unless they have made a 40 or 25 man roster (more mone at some point in their career.

on the other end there is a trend of the more "sabermetric" Teams do increasingly draft college Players because they arrive more quickly and have less bust potential.

The cubs almost exclusively draft college hitters in the first two rounds (actually 11 out of the 15 top 5 picks out of the last 3 years were college Players) and both bryant and schwarber made it to the Majors really fast. if they did not believe college prepared them they would not have taken them (obviously that only applies to the very top college Players).

when it Comes to HS Players and international guys it is more a numbers game, you get tons of them and hope one or two make it.

also college Play gives the sabermetric Teams a Chance to use stats and not just pure Tools for recruiting. HS stats say nothing but you can read a lot into strong D1 Division stats. it is very hard to learn plate discipline (most hackers remain hackers) and by drafting guys that showed discipline in college Teams like the cubs get hitters that have a larger Chance of being disciplined in the Majors too.

Yes and some teams draft college pitchers exclusively for rhetoric same reason.

However most of these players are exceptions and first rounders or high picks.  I think that I stated that.