Gaining Ground or Replacing ?

quote:

Originally posted by COACHBLU25:
Where do you feel the front elbow should be right before the throw?

Between the forearm and the upper arm.

When? Define "right before the throw."

Pointing toward 2nd and up shoulder height.

"right before the throw..."

Next to my side.

"slightly before right before the throw"

Somewhere between where I caught the ball and next to my side.

"longer before right before the throw"

Governed by whereever I caught the ball.

In other words, WHY IS ANYONE INSTRUCTING THE LEAD ELBOW TO A CATCHER.

I agree with Linear here. You should be bringing the glove back as you are pulling the ball from the mitt. The glove will go high to your ear and behind as you pull the ball. The elbow simply goes with it and is usually going to be hanging in a relaxed position. Get the throwing hand in the right position with the glove and you don't need to worry about the elbow.

Are you coaching gaining ground or replacing ?

Fellas

It's in your center.

Rotate from your center. Learn to do it and what your arms do is what they do to get the ball and transfer.

COACHBLU25,
I assume that you are talking about gaining ground in your movement toward second or replacing your feet. I keep it simple, with most of my players we replace the left foot with the right (which places the left in front), this is seen as a jump type of technique when done fast. We then stay low and throw as if we are in a slanted room. Stand up too early-hit your head. We go up and out which carries momentum toward second but does not actually move our body a great deal toward second.

I've watched pro catchers teach the gaining ground method (everything forward) as well as many major college coaches. The replacing of the feet according to them has momentum going one way to get set then forward to throw. They feel everything going forward is better and I agree. Right foot leads with the ankle to an area under your chin and the rest of the body squares in place. I guess its preference.

What would moving the right foot forward to under the chin do to a professional quarterback every time he said "go"? He would have the slowest release and wouldn't be in the league.

These guys can throw a football 70-80 yards with a load and throw.

Hmmm

If you need forward momentum to get off your best throw........you better try outfield.....or pitcher.

Please buy SteveE's DVD.

It will simply amaze you at what the center can do......and he teaches how.

I know I'm sounding like a religious fanatic. But, I've been able to do what he explains as a catcher all my life. Didn't know what I was doing but was doing it. Just like 99% of mlb hitters. Do it. Can't explain it.

Now, I do what I was doing as a catcher in hitting.......Oh My God.

Great for hitting and throwing.

As close to the holy grail as you'll find.

I'm asking a question on how coaches are teaching. Football QB is different than a catcher. I was both. My son is being taught what I don't agree with so I want to see what others teach.

Who is SteveD and do you have a link to his DVD site. I'd like to see it. I've viewed segments from mycoachonline that I agree with
plus a DVD from HQ4 baseball, Troy C. Yankee Minor league catcher. Neither feels the replacing is the best way. I like gaining ground and I believe many pros do as well although I've seen the other as well. Baseball is a mystery that were all trying to solve and this is just another segment.

thanks for input.

I was both too.

There is very little difference in the actual throw. Catcher raises out of squat, quarterback doesn't, but that's it. Both require extremely quick releases.

Neither can be quick if they move their right foot under their chin before they release.

If you think so, you need a new definition of quick. Because there is one different than yours.

And, if you think you need linear movement to throw....you need Englishbey.

As far as Steve's contact info is concerned, send me a PM and I'll give you phone and email address.

quote:

gaining ground or replacing

why argue about philosophies??
what are YOUR results?? mostly success or mostly failure??

My son has been exposed to both ways - I think he now does NOT gain ground, but I need to review some video & report back - he had success against FSU's Robinson so something must be working

my GUESS is that either can be effective, BUT, if one works better for your body & mechanics - - - just use it & don't beat the other guys over the head

JMO


.

quote:

Originally posted by COACHBLU25:
Baseball is a mystery that were all trying to solve and this is just another segment.

thanks for input.

Just a different perspective - but I see no mystery in it at all.

I think - especially nowadays - there are many people out there selling stuff that want to make it appear so. Because it benefits their ability to market product.

But it isnt mysterious - and there is no one single answer to anything - whether it be pitching - hitting - or fielding.

A few basics - yes - but pretty much little has changed over the years IMO. And virtually noone talks about the different physical aspects of an individual player when discussing theory. That is - IMO - the biggest flaw of most of the theories I see presented.

On the other hand - I understand why this is avoided - the marketing concept.

You need to make people truly believe they need something - and you need to show them that you have the ONLY answer to fulfill their needs.

A careful study of the games best players will show you the huge variety in mechanics in all aspects of the game IMO.

Not to disagree with anyones opinion, but don't the feet need to move on inside pitches, low or high (to RHH)? The best catchers need to be able to receive and release in more than just one way depending on the pitch.

Probably the biggest problem we see in amateur catchers with slow pop times is they tend to stand up. The best catchers will stay low (top of head about a foot below their actual height). The only exception being the high pitch that causes them to stand up.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:...but don't the feet need to move on inside pitches...

Absolutely not.

I assume you are talking about "handleable" pitches. Ones that are balls but don't require major body movements to get to them.

The farther a catcher has to reach left the harder the throw. No question. But, the more you move the feet the more difficult you make it.

I'm sure you've played burnt out before. You are trying to throw as hard as you can and release as quick as you can. You also have to do this while receiving the throw from your partner as you're walking in shortening the distance. What do you do when the throw is to your left? If you're playing properly, you are already into your throwing motion. Body has committed to throwing. So, you reach for the ball and bring it to the throwing side. Definately not as quick as a ball to your right side. But, definately quicker than moving your feet and then throwing.

PG,
You are right. You will need to change delivery depending on where the ball leads your body. I teach the jab step to all catchers (down the middle/inside) and the pivot (outside). The ball will naturally load your body on the outside pitch to a righty, so no need to move your feet. It will only put you off-balance more often than not.
The one thing I question is the "old-style" of taking the glove and ball to the ear. If you break down the throwing motion of all good catchers, they actually seperate their hands from the sternum and the glove and hand go opposite direction. If you take the glove all the way back to the ear, you never load your scapula which is a huge factor in throwing with leverage. 127 feet is not easy to throw without leverage. Thus you put a lot of strain on your throwing shoulder and increase the chances of shoulder problems.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach A:
...they actually seperate their hands from the sternum and the glove and hand go opposite direction...

Very good point. I call it "catching the ball deep". Let the ball travel to you. Don't go get it and bring it back. If you let it travel to you it will come right to your sternum (or very near it). The transfer occurs and the two hands go separate directions.

quote:

quote:

i agree with linear about catching the ball deep raking the ball to sternum or midline etc.the big difference in the way a catcher should throw is simply in his arm arc it should be flat and back not down around and back.
however i do teach to gain ground with the feet. generally replacing the feet the momentum of your body will be going towards 3rd base. a short, quick jab step with the right foot in front of the left will get you to close your shoulder to your target and movement towards 2nd. not many high school catchers have the arm strength to rocker step.

quote:

Originally posted by catamount36:...not many high school catchers have the arm strength to rocker step.

Would you consider a 2B, with right foot on the bag, turning a DP with no time problem (in other words he doesn't have to jump over the runner), to be using a rocker step technique?

quote:

Originally posted by catamount36:

quote:

quote:

the big difference in the way a catcher should throw is simply in his arm arc it should be flat and back not down around and back.

Exactly! That is the first time I have heard another catching instructor state that. I have said that for years.

Hey Linear,

This was a question, originally, to see what UPDATED COACHES are teaching there players. This is not a forum question for you to critique bits and pieces of things not related to the original thoughts. My problem is some coaches only teach what they were taught 20 years ago and do not even try to improve there coaching skills. I'm sick of paying money for coaches who do clinics and to be honest STINK.
I went to a hitting clinic where I felt embarassed for the coach and his players because they were all clueless. A few of these posts actually understand what I'm trying to
get answered.

quote:

Originally posted by COACHBLU25:
My problem is some coaches only teach what they were taught 20 years ago and do not even try to improve there coaching skills. I'm sick of paying money for coaches who do clinics and to be honest STINK.

Replace "some" with "most" and I agree 100%. We have a new indoor facility opening nearby next week...The coaching "advisory staff" list is full of guys with great bio's. I hoping they have "an idea".

quote:

Originally posted by COACHBLU25:
Hey Linear,

This was a question, originally, to see what UPDATED COACHES are teaching there players. This is not a forum question for you to critique bits and pieces of things not related to the original thoughts. My problem is some coaches only teach what they were taught 20 years ago and do not even try to improve there coaching skills. I'm sick of paying money for coaches who do clinics and to be honest STINK.
I went to a hitting clinic where I felt embarassed for the coach and his players because they were all clueless. A few of these posts actually understand what I'm trying to
get answered.

Hey, no problem. If you're looking for confirmation of your beliefs you should have said so.

Most here like to explore the truth.

Is the silence on my 2B question a statement of "oh, that's what he means?" Or just tired of the quest for truth.

I'm looking for the best way to teach catchers. Yes, I believe in gaining ground
but many others replace. I guess I'm back at square one. Where 2B came in I'm not sure but the distance is less and most 2b have weaker arms than catchers so whats the point. Give me some positive feedback not your negative bull
or trying to be a know it all like many of the coaches I speak with. Like Troy99 said, thats
most of the coaches we come in contact with.
Keep your answers positive Linear because you probally can ad some advice to this forum. PS If I was tired of the quest for the truth I wouldn't be here.

quote:

Originally posted by COACHBLU25:
...but the distance is less and most 2b have weaker arms than catchers so whats the point.

Not talking about the distance. Not talking about a players arm strength. I'm talking about the technique.

Sounds to me like the "technique" may be in the way of your beliefs.

CoachBlu25,
I am the biggest proponent of core "technique" in this forum along with Linear (from the way it sounds). That being said, the body has one way to move in order to be most efficient. Gaining ground towards 2B will assist the body in getting the ball to 2B quicker due to the momentum and energy being sent in the direction of the throw. If you simply stay in one spot and rotate, in theory your momentum/energy simply stays on a static axis and then your body works against you. A small jab step or getting the heel to turn to the pitcher will enable you to maximize arm strength, give you the cleanest throw (Less fade), and be the least taxing on the shoulder. I hope that helps answer your question.

Thank You and I agree with the momentum going in the direction of the throw. I don't agree with the right foot replacing the left because the momentum is going in 2 directions. I will continue teaching this way. I have some players I trained in the past year that are being taught the former along with some different front arm angles. They've contacted me and I posted on this forum to see what coaches feel is best. Thanks to everyone who responded pro or con, including Linear.

Linear,

Could you explain how you can receive and throw to 2B... the inside pitch to a RHH or outside to LHH... without moving your right foot?Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean.


Are there any video clips that show that technique being used on the glove side of the catcher? I don't think I've ever seen that technique used in that situation. If we are going to view all the good ML hitters in order to see what makes them so good (which I agree with)... wouldn't the same thing hold true for viewing the good ML catchers to see how they are throwing out runners?

If you are correct... we can put less emphasis on one of the main ingredients of a successful catcher... That being "quick feet"!

quote:

Originally posted by Coach A:
CoachBlu25,
I am the biggest proponent of core "technique" in this forum along with Linear (from the way it sounds). That being said, the body has one way to move in order to be most efficient. Gaining ground towards 2B will assist the body in getting the ball to 2B quicker due to the momentum and energy being sent in the direction of the throw. If you simply stay in one spot and rotate, in theory your momentum/energy simply stays on a static axis and then your body works against you. A small jab step or getting the heel to turn to the pitcher will enable you to maximize arm strength, give you the cleanest throw (Less fade), and be the least taxing on the shoulder. I hope that helps answer your question.

With all due respect.......hogwash.

You don't understand core rotation.

Explain to me how good ss's can make the throw from the hole. There is absolutely no linear momentum to help him. In fact his momentum is going the opposite direction.

Don't give me footwork bs. It comes from the hips.

How do ss/2B turn the dp? Very efficient core rotation. Very effective load/unload. Timely load/unload. Very effective "sudden change of direction" of the hips. Torsion bar type rotation with tremendous power.

Better yet, how do pitchers slide step? They don't move their post foot and they still throw 90+ mph. And the good ones are very quick to the plate.

PG

So you've never played burn out?

What does a 2B do when his foot is already planted on the base, and the throw from 3B or ss is to his left but within reach?

What is so hard to see?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Linear,

Could you explain how you can receive and throw to 2B... the inside pitch to a RHH or outside to LHH... without moving your right foot?Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean.

My 08 catcher had the same question when we talked about this last night... didn't think it made sense to pull all the way across the body ...he's been taught to adjust his foot-work to pitch location. Very close to Linear's description on the outside (to RH) pitch, but not otherwise. Basically, the feet come up along the path of the ball. He does not gain ground. He's been taught to use the hips rather than momentum but I'm sure he would not pass Linear's test on this, yet

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
With all due respect.......hogwash.

You don't understand core rotation.

Explain to me how good ss's can make the throw from the hole. There is absolutely no linear momentum to help him. In fact his momentum is going the opposite direction.

Don't give me footwork bs. It comes from the hips.

How do ss/2B turn the dp? Very efficient core rotation. Very effective load/unload. Timely load/unload. Very effective "sudden change of direction" of the hips. Torsion bar type rotation with tremendous power.

Better yet, how do pitchers slide step? I believe their rt foot stays planted and they still throw 90+ mph. And the good ones are very quick to the plate.

Point #1:
A ball hit into the hole would simulate a ball being thrown to the outside (RH) in which I said the plant and throw is accurate due to the body loading itself.
You won't see a SS take a ball right at them or to their left "plant and throw". Why is this? Simply stated, when the ball is to the throwing side, it takes too long to move your feet, remain balanced, and gain momentum toward a target, thus the core "load/unload" takes place more efficiently. Anything else warrants quick precise footwork.

Point #2:
All upper level SS/2B will use footwork towards 1B when the throw or baserunner allow. If a runner is baring down on them, or throw is wide to the LF side of bag, again the "load/unload" action takes over. If you watch, they will move their feet. I haven't met a middle infielder that tells me footwork isn't important in a DP turn.

Point #3:
A pitcher slide stepping still has body weight and momentum moving forward towards the plate. I have yet to see a pitcher slide step and leave their back foot attached to the rubber. That makes no sense. Again, no disrespect, but if you can prove to me that any high level pitcher only pivots on their back foot without following through, I will retract my statement with an apology.

Point #4: (I promise...last one)
Every professional ball player I have ever played burn out with moves their feet. The thing is that the feet are moving prior to catching the ball (as I suggested in another thread). Anticipation of the catch sets the body up early enough to move the feet and throw it quickly and efficiently.

Footwork will always be a huge factor in catching, inf, outfield, hitting, pitching, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach A:
Point #1:
A ball hit into the hole would simulate a ball being thrown to the outside (RH) in which I said the plant and throw is accurate due to the body loading itself.

Do you change the subject because your point is weak? The "specific" subject of the above post is in response to your claim of the need for linear momentum. My example was the effectiveness of a ss's throw from the hole, with not just NO momentum but in fact negative momentum. And the good ones make good throws from this negative momentum position. Clearly shows their is no need for linear momentum.

quote:

Point #2:
All upper level SS/2B will use footwork towards 1B when the throw or baserunner allow. If a runner is baring down on them, or throw is wide to the LF side of bag, again the "load/unload" action takes over. If you watch, they will move their feet. I haven't met a middle infielder that tells me footwork isn't important in a DP turn.

No they don't always move their feet. They use mulitple techniques. But, when they have to be their quickest, with no fear of the barring runner, and when they get to the bag "on time" the right foot plants at the base, they receive and throw. It is the most quickest turn.

quote:

Point #3:
A pitcher slide stepping still has body weight and momentum moving forward towards the plate. I have yet to see a pitcher slide step and leave their back foot attached to the rubber. That makes no sense. Again, no disrespect, but if you can prove to me that any high level pitcher only pivots on their back foot without following through, I will retract my statement with an apology.

Please.....What does this statement have to do with? The only thing it can have to do with is your lack of a quality response. Where did I say there was no follow through involved with a catchers throw? Where did I say a catcher leaves his right foot on the ground after throwing. Where did I claim a pitcher leaves his post foot in contact with the rubber.

quote:

Point #4: (I promise...last one)
...The thing is that the feet are moving prior to catching the ball (as I suggested in another thread). Anticipation of the catch sets the body up early enough to move the feet and throw it quickly and efficiently.

Exactly....Feet have moved "prior to catching the ball". Which means......right foot is planted while catching and throwing. EXACTLY my point. The key is not the footwork. The footwork is already done. A catcher receiving pitches from a pitcher 95% of the time, already has the feet in the position needed. The key is the load/unload of the hips. The key is "how do you create momentum without moving your feet. How do you create momentum that is not linear? How you do THAT is the key. Not the footwork.............And it is very easily done. And it is not linear. Linear, while creating momentum is slow developing. Too slow. Whatever advantage your player gets from linear momentum is offset by the time it takes to develop it. Fact. Fifteen minutes with your linear catcher and I can teach him how to develop momentum in another fashion. Will take him longer to perfect it. But he can "get the concept" and agree to it's value in 15 minutes.

Coach A,

Very good post!

Linear,

Burn out! Man, does that bring back memories. Don’t know what it has to do with a catchers pop time, but thanks for the memories.

By the way, are there some standard rules for burn out? We never hurried the throws, just tried to knock the other guys glove off.

When I think burn out, I remember John Yanda, he was an older kid on my block that had a very strong arm that he would use to absolutely punish me. We had some serious games of burn out! Fist fight would have been much less pain.

Guess these days, if kids did that everyone would worry about TJ surgery because I guarantee that we threw the baseball just as hard as we possibly could (didn’t need a radar gun) for a long time.

Didn’t know there was such a thing as mechanics. However your body told you, you could throw the hardest is exactly what you did. Bob Feller did it that way, too. He didn't believe in taking it easy behind the barn.

Nobody, ever needed surgery, but many developed a very strong arm. Hell, maybe a bunch of us would have had TJ surgery if it existed back then. The old days provide great memories about just how stupid we were. Or were we?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Coach A,

Very good post!

Simply unbelievable to me. The post is full of holes. And, in order not to be deemed too harsh....with all due respect.....in the nicest way I can say it in my current "shocked amazement".....because I do like you......what do you do for a living?

Linear,
Yes, I thought he made some very good points.

quote:

Exactly....Feet have moved "prior to catching the ball". Which means......right foot is planted while catching and throwing. EXACTLY my point. The key is not the footwork. The footwork is already done. A catcher receiving pitches from a pitcher 95% of the time, already has the feet in the position needed. The key is the load/unload of the hips. The key is "how do you create momentum without moving your feet. How you do THAT is the key. Not the footwork.............And it is very easily done. And it is not linear. Linear, while creating momentum is slow developing. Too slow. Whatever advantage your player gets from linear momentum is offset by the time it takes to develop it. Fact. Fifteen minutes with your linear catcher and I can teach him how to develop momentum in another fashion. Will take him longer to perfect it. But he can "get the concept" and agree to it's value in 15 minutes.

This makes sense. This is good. This I can not argue with (not that I'd want to). This is why I disagree with those who claim catchers cheat at showcases. People say they cheat by moving towards the ball and throwing way out ib front of the plate. My question is... Who are they cheating? Themselves. The ball travels faster than the body.

However, there are still the catch and throws where the right foot simply can't be planted before receiving the ball. I really would like to see video clips of the greatest catchers ever (catching and throwing) the glove side pitch.

Is it possible to catch a 95 mph running fastball and have your right foot moved and planted with your body in the best possible throwing position before the ball gets to your glove. That's a long ways to move that right foot (actually both feet and the body) without creating momentum towards 3B in about .4 seconds.

I will agree, that most any pitch that can be caught with the thumb down, the technique Linear mentions will be the quickest. However, those pitches that are caught with thumb up require a different technique (jump pivot) is probably quickest. However, when catchers receive the ball with thumb on top, it's usually a stolen base anyway, no matter what method is used or who's doing the catching.



Problem is... where would a person find those clips... anyone have any?

Linear,

I don't make pizza's

Because of the lack of a clip. I'll try an explanation.

Get in catchers low stance (no one on base stance).

Put both elbows against sides, show pitcher both palms. Left hand is now in thumb up position as if catching an inside pitch.

Right foot behind left foot (offset) Leave your right foot planted, rotate knees so they face 2bman and 1bman (or thereabouts). You now have separation with shoulders still not pointed to secondbase because you are catching the inside pitch.

As you raise out of the stance the hands come together (similar to clapping) and transfer.

This happens while the lower body is already unloading. Soon, the upper body engages the lower and you throw.

A rough explanation but no different than any other player, attempting to make a play, and the ball comes to his glove side

Very good description Linear. I get this and I'm going to use this method 2 see if my times go down.