Go "Noles"

What is next? PETA going after the animal mascots? Maybe Florida can be really PC and name the team the "Really Wealthy, Casino Owning, Native Americans", they can put a pair of dice with an arrow and dollar sign on the uniform. Puhleeze!

Maybe the Fighting Illini can be renamed the Passive And Well Mannered Illini.

The NCAA, for a long time, has been considered elitist and just plain ignorant on so many issues. This time they have gone that little extra to prove the organization is really out of touch not just with the athlete but the fans and schools as well. How can a governing body be so insensitive to whom it oversees? According to published reports, for instance, the Seminole Indian tribe has clearly stated that they are “proud” to have FSU use the Seminole name. In fact, Max Osceola, a member of the Seminole tribal council bemoaned the fact that history, unkindly, is being repeated ``Non-Indians are again telling Indians what is good for them'' he said. The Florida Seminole Indians are in total support of FSU.

Hostile and abusive... Come on! Certainly in the past there have been some mascots that have been less than flattering to the tribal nations. For the sake of political correctness these mascots have been retired or replaced. However, if the NCAA, in their infinite wisdom, find the use of Indian names and references hostile and abusive explain how the University of North Carolina-Pembroke is exempt from the sanctions. Myles Brand and his minions have ruled that because North Carolina-Pembroke has historically admitted a high percentage of American Indians (reportedly more than 20% of the student body are American Indians) they may continue to use the nickname Braves. Hey, maybe it is just me but does anyone else think that maybe those 20% are the very people the NCAA is looking to “protect” from the hostile and abusive nicknames, mascots and references?!?

The NCAA is pandering to a small group of people that have little else to do. For the NCAA to cave in on this could really lead to some serious consequences. For instance, how many people in Florida (especially around September) cringe when you hear any reference to hurricanes? Watch out Miami! Is anyone offended by the fact that fans in Arizona and North Carolina are cheering for the devil. Watch out Arizona State and Duke! The NCAA PC crew is on the prowl.

Brilliant. Miles Brand is the smartest man in America and if you don't believe me just ask him. Let's see, on the pecking order of things that may be of concern to the NCAA, they decided to tackle the most difficult and complex issue of all time first. Gee, why didn't I think of that. I guess that's why I don't get paid the big bucks (sarcasim off).

How about this one, every division in college football has a playoff system, yet, in D1 it is considered totally unworkable. Lets just have the computer geeks and sports writers decide it. You know what's really cool, since they don't have playoffs, they are exempt from the mascot rules - you gotta love it.

They made St Johns University drop the "Redmen" tag and the name had nothing to do with Indians-- the "redmen" tag came from the fact that early on the uniforms, band etc were all red, Somehow or other the name evolved into an Indian thing

Highlander

You state that the NCAA is pandering to a small group of people. That should not surprise anybody just look at what goes on in the political arena in this country. This PC thing has gone to far. Gee "The Fighting Irish" a violent depiction of the Irish? You never know

Goodbye Indians, what about the Cowboys? OK State, Wyoming and a few others.

How about them Fighting Irish? I'm offended, my ancestry is being demeaned.

The Oklahoma Seminoles are offended, but the Florida Seminole Tribe is honored.

What a joke! Let the travesty D1 football non-playoff system continue, but certainly get rid
of those offending mascots.

Oh Boy!!! This is going to get real interesting.

BigHit, that is some funny stuff

What about the FIGHTING IRISH? I don't understand how they can name, towns, counties and even states using Indian names. Will the NCAA force states to change their name.

I can see there are some mascots and logos that could be considered degrading to American Indians. However, there also seems to be some positive recognition brought to some great Native American people. Some might be completely forgotten if it weren't for these names being used. Maybe that's what people want.

I think the degrading stuff needs to go, but isn't it a big honor to have your name used by a major university. Are these institutions of higher learning just trying to downgrade an entire race? I don't think so!

quote:

What about the FIGHTING IRISH?

....and the Ragin Cajuns??

Dad04,
Now that's "hostile" !

May I apologies, in advance to all those who I may offend by this post.

I wonder if Fungo finds the mascot named after him offensive?!?!?!? Looks racially or ethnically "hostile" or "abusive" to me??? Maybe it’s the hostile crossed eyes. If this PC thinking trickled into MLB God help us…. Think of all those bandana’ed “pirates” or white sox’ed nerds roaming the streets! It scares me to think of the possibilities!

Thanks FutureBack.Mom for finding Fungo, the mascot of the New Hampshire Fisher Cats, the AA affiliate of the Toronto Blue Jays and bringing this possible insult to our attention.

http://www.nhfishercats.com/uploads/images/mascot2.jpg

NOTE: The information is provided for informational purposes only, and is not intended to offend Fungo or anyone that may resemble Fungo or anyone who can not read but may be offended by the pictorial of Fungo or anyone the is blind but can read and my know Fungo. Smokey does not warrant the intelligence of this post or assume any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information. This post may contain material on Fungo and should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered.

“The other teams could make trouble for us if they win.” ~ Yogi Berra

In the 60's we went through this with the commie pin-heads feigning being insulted about their heritage. It isn't about that, its about getting money from the federal government for some innane program so they can give their colleagues in academia busy work instead of a "real" job. Most of them wouldn't know an Indian if he was standing right next to them. And quite frankly I doubt if there are any "true" Indians left as their lineage has been absorbed through inter-racial marraiges, and have all being assimilated into our national culture.

Just another sanctimonious demonstration by the NCAA that getting money from the government is their real mission.

Stanford University was one of the first to succumb to this heresy. They went from the Stanford Indians to the Stanford Cardinal (color) not the bird. And their logo is a Redwood Tree. Can you get anymore non-offensive then that. But I anticipate that there will be the ECO-Terrorist nuts who will be offended that the Redwood Tree is being used as part of a sports symbol.

UC Santa Cruz uses the Banana Slug. The only thing that faculty and students care about there is where they're going to score their next doobie.

Just based upon that idiocy, I would never allow my kid anywhere near that campus.

I get it now....the NCAA is concerned with the Seminole logo on a FSU players jersey perhaps offending a few but need not be concerned with that same player wearing the Seminole logo taking a 115 mph bullet in the face off of some aluminum bat.
Priorities in order!

Smokey,
Thanks for making me aware that I'm being targeted. Should I file a class action lawsuit for me and all the other Fungos of the world? I never really thought about it but now that you mention it, that "character" up in Massachusetts is hostile and abusive to all us Fungo's.
Back to the farce about the Indian mascot being considered offensive to the American Indian. I would be more inclined to believe a college program with their mascot being a 7th Cavalryman as more offensive to the American Indian population than an Indian brave? But then who said “Politically Correct” was correct after all?
Fungo

The Seminole Tribe of Florida that stayed home and fought the white man's dominance are represented by a decendant of perhap's the bravest Indian Chief in history, Chief Osceola.

Max Osceola and the FLORIDA Seminole Tribe are on record in support of Florida State University using the Seminole name. The Seminole Tribe of Florida has been involved in an advisory capacity regarding logo's and even merchandise design's for more than 30 years!

How does this even remotely compare to the ficticious "Chief Illiniwek" dancing on the Illinois basketball court and football field?

It is time to take a very hard look at an organization that wants the college athletic world to believe they are looking out for thier best interests when they have never taken a stand on uniform drug testing. Is it more important to fight over logo's and mascots...or to allow each institution to regulate thier own drug policy's? Note: An athlete at some schools is out after 2 failed tests while other schools allow 4!

My point exactly soxnole - thank you. The NCAA has nothing better to do with its limited time and resources??? Why exactly do we need the NCAA? Someone explain that one to me!

I don't get it too - - when a school or team selects a symbol or mascot to represent them they'd choose something they feel shows tradition, pride, etc that they want to portray

the fact that in the past there was maybe some shoddy artwork, or that some mascots have come to act like cartoon characters certainly could be handled in any number of ways

smokey, why anticipate any offense from Fungo? that mascot is a spittin image of how I pictured him in his younger days

Wonder what they are going to do with the anteaters or the horned toads?

Fungo,
You are cute, and a mascot for the Blue Jays!
How coincidental

"Tar Heel" is slated to be banned...

...once the NCAA can find two, reasonable people who can agree about what it is!

yes, and I'm now on the "warpath" (if that's PC) against yellow jackets, there were some out back that I tried to "treat with respect" & they stung the He** outa me - - -
now it's gasoline, & M-80's baby!

Wanna see your blood rise ???
Try this

The NCAA Clearinghouse gets what --- $30 bucks a pop from every HS kid , male and female, who think they can play college sports at the D-I D-2 level.

This for all sports --keep that in in mind -- so you do the math---

Nice eh--must be good money involved for Brand to cease being the President at University of Indiana to run the NCAA

When you consider Miles Brand, Bud Selig becomes a genius.

Here in the politically correct Commonwealth of Virginia (and be careful, the next two presidential candidates might come from here), we should be mostly okay because nobody is quite sure what a Hokie (Virginia Tech) and Wahoo (UVA) are, JMU is the "Dukes" (a dog apparently), Richmond is the Spiders (and that insect has no fan club), and George Mason's "Patriots" are only slightly questionable (demeans the British that lost the war after all), but William and Mary, with the "Indians" has got to go....

And while we're talking, hasn't "Mary" played second fiddle to "William" long enough? Why not require that it be "Mary and William" for the next 200 years to even things out? Maybe that's why they haven't found a new baseball coach in over 1 month of searching.

And then there's "University of Mary Washington ". What was Mary's maiden name? Why must she use "Washington"? Was George's dad a chauvinist? Oh the shame of it all.....

Personally, I want to thank the NCAA for taking on such a signficant issue. They could easily have gotten side-tracked by such lesser issues as steroids, drug-testing, recruiting abuses, and the questionable-but-just-so-obvious -it's-silly unfairness of giving only 1 year scholarships at 4 year schools (how obvious does that have to be?).

Heck, lesser groups might have tackled why D-1 football is incapable of a championship game when every other sport at every other level has one, or why coaches can break contracts with impunity, and work the next day, yet to do the same thing, players must sit out a year, unless those very same coaches agree otherwise.

(cut to background music-Battle Hymn Of The Republic here)

I know guts and gumption when I see them, and while others may question Dr. Brand and the PCAA (oops, NCAA), I say Great jobs guys (oops, persons) Great job!!!!!!!!

hokieone,

Classic post! I love sarcasim and you have done a nice job here. I agree with you, it is about time to rename William & Mary to M & W

For those of us who think this is crazy, send Mr. Brand an email!

mbrand@ncaa.org

I think I'll email this thread, he might get a kick out of Hokie's post.

Why does baseball only get 11.7 scholly's? Why does football need so many?

Wonder what can be done about the Aggies............?

They certainly offend my cotton pickin' heritage.

Fungo see what you started…. Hokie, great post. I heard that the alums from FSU pledged some big numbers (over a million) to fight this. Maybe soxnole can fill us in?? While reading this tread one of my favorite movies comes to mind, and I quote;
“Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests - we did. But you can't hold a whole NCAA responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole NCAA system? And if the whole NCAA system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, President Myles Brand - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!” ~ Otter

Hokie...I'm being repetitive here, but great post. Thanks for starting my day off with a "thought provoking" chuckle!

Hokie - That's great!!!

TR - I agree - we pay the bucks and then must sit back for months waiting on the response!

Will this turn up to different sports such as MLB? Because I really don't want the Braves to go.

Edit- What about any other sports? I dont know any NBA or NHL ones but the Redskins came to mind.

That is a great question akbb20. When the Cleveland Indians were perennial play-off contenders in the mid to late ninties, outside groups began to pressure them big time. Funny, no one really gives a c-r-a-p about Cleveland (except for late night tv fodder) until one of their teams is successful for the first time in over 50 years.

These protest groups usually had American Indians as front people but I suspect there were radical PC groups that were actually the political force behind them. I must admit, Cleveland's logo Chief Wahoo could have been considered offensive in that it was more in the characature (sp) style. The team has tried to downplay the wahoo image in recent years by featuring the name "Indians" on there uniforms and promotional literature rather than the actual face of Chief Wahoo. I think the Braves are targeted by the same groups.

I'm surprised no one'shad my view yet.


On the one hand, teams like the Seminoles, who have close ties to an actual tribe or group, are okay. They are part of an actual group. (Notre Dame falls into this as well.)

However, teams like 'Indians' 'Braves' and 'Redskins' could be very offensive. Why just the Redskins? Why not Blackskins? It could have an African American on the helmets! Or the Fightin' Rednecks! It would have a white guy as a mascot, running around, acting like a total moron.
NO! it's racist, no matter how you toss the dice. It's not tradition, it's offensive.

I think if you ask the ethnic groups involved the majority will give you a big "so what".

It is all petty BS---The Fighting Irish is nt found to be offensive

What about the Dirtbags of Long Beach State?

I think our country has gotten TOO SOFT as well as TOO FREAKING SENSITIVE ABOUT THINGS

You know we can solve the problem--no names for the teams just the school name or the pro team name--The New York Baseball team for instance--the Florida State Football Team

Still didn't respond to my point:

Would you be fine with a Blackskins team? Or a Fightin' Asians? Or a Fightin' Whiteys? No.

Should these groups just stop being too freaking sensitive? Geez. Some people find racial slurs offensive believe it or not.

Personally, I am appalled that the NCAA is still allowing the use of Eagles and Tigers as nicknames.

Eagles are nice birds. They have families.
The same goes for Tigers.

Doesnt anybody care about these creatures feelings?

It is just so unfair.


And then - the sausage races in MLB. Its disgusting IMO. Dont get me going on this.
Total denigration of Italian sausages. You must remember - those sausages were once living beasts.

Whats next - racing meatballs?

The Horror - the Horror.

BTW - This went under the radar screen - but the last sausage race winner in Milwaukee - was found guilty of steroid abuse.

I knew it too - I saw the race - no way a sausage can make up lost ground to a speedy and well-tuned hot dog, like that one did.

Nothing is sacred anymore.
Even the sausages are juiced.

YC

Why you trying to drive this into a "racial slur" attitude ????---

I have a major problem with that

I agree with Yankee Clipper. There's no need to use an ethnic stereotype as a team mascot. Making a clown out of a representative of a group and using that clown as a team mascot is disrespectful, and if I've tried to teach my kids anything it's not to be disrespectful - especially towards people you don't even know. I've seen the "Indian" mascots - they aren't pretty. The Atlanta Braves' tomahawk chant (or whatever it is) makes my skin crawl (I keep seeing Jane Fonda doing it.) The phony arguments justifying using a cartoonish "Indian" clown as a mascot because the "fighting Irish" isn't offensive to Irish Americans are pretty transparent. Clipper is right: it's no more OK to call a team the "Indians" than it would be to call them the "Darkies" (with a blackface tap dancing mascot?) or the "Beaners" with a Mexican sleeping against a cactus for a mascot. People are people, not animals or dirtbags. It is demeaning to the members of that group - even if they don't want to complain about it.

I, for one "whitey" would feel very honored if the Seminole Tribe or the
Cherokee Nation wanted to name one of their teams "The Palefaces" or "The Long Knives" or the "Whiteeyes".

Not sure I've ever heard the term "Blackskins" before.

Hard to imagine anyone naming their team a derogatory name just to offend a
group of people.

Talk about sensitive, these names have been around for years, I've seen
native Americans here in Florida wearing Indians, Braves, Seminoles, and yes
Redskins shirts. Much ado about nothing.

How about:

The Fighting Ziti?

I like that one.

quote:

Originally posted by P-Dog:
People are people, not animals or dirtbags. It is demeaning to the members of that group - even if they don't want to complain about it.

I take offense to that, on behalf of all animals who cant speak for themselves.

You have equated animals with "dirtbags".

I find that offensive - and my dog does too.

In fact - he is howling in anger as I write this.

Just horrible.

P-Dog,

Almost forgot - my goldfish is angry as well.

Blew a gasket and he just turned belly up.

The insensitivity is mind boggling.
Now - I gotta flush him.

I agree that the cartoonish characters that seem to denigrate an ethnic group or race are probably past their time, especially in this day and age. However, many ... if not most ... of the mascots are no longer portrayed in that light.

We have the same problem here in So Cal with people trying to change high school mascots that they believe are offensive to our residents of Mexican descent. And yet, for the most part, these mascots are indeed quality depictions of the strongest warriors of the Mexican nations. My son's high school team was known as the Aztecs and the graphic of the male and female Aztec warrior was not the least bit offensive or denigrating. It was inspiring ... so why force a change?

If I had any mascots to complain about, it would be anything with "devil" as part of its name as I find that horribly offensive due to my faith. Does anyone think the NCAA will put a stop to that anytime soon because people of faith find it offensive? And what about the school whose mascot's nickname is the four-letter word describing a rooster? Am I the only female in the country that finds that totally offensive?

I believe that some adjustments could be made to mascot depictions if they bring a negative stereotype with them. But I just don't think that is the case anymore and the NCAA has gone too far.

How about this one:

One school (I wont mention the name) has a mascot as follows:

It's a somewhat balding - overweight hairy man about 5'10 - 235 pounds - wearing a strapless t-shirt with a spaghetti sauce stain on the front.

They call the team "The Sloppy Goombahs"

I am disgusted and appalled. Horrified actually.

Mr. Brand - please put an end to this madness.

So here is the current personal recap:

I have one dead goldfish (Heart attack) - Offended to death. Down the bowl he goes.

I have a howling pissed off dog - because he was equated with "dirtbags". He is offended and has just recently expressed his outrage on my brand new living room rug. (That is truly offensive.)

I have 32 offended male relatives who are now irate as a result of the mascot previously referred to. They are hanging up their stained tshirts as I speak.

I have 2 pounds of sausage in the refridgerator that are offended as a result of those denigrating MLB races. They refuse to be cooked and have left the freezer in protest.

And - lastly - I am offended that everyone is offended.

You go Brand - You Go!

Now that I think of it, I am appalled by Kenyon's use of Lords and Ladies. These names suggest an elitist society in which certain groups are considered inherently better than others simply by virtue of birhtright. That is not the kind of thing we want our kids to learn for $40k a year! And while we're on the Fighting Irish, don't forget the Fighting Scots of the College of Wooster.

We could have a bowl game--the Fighting Irish vs the Fighting Scots or is that already happening?

Based on the history of the founding of the college, Dartmouth used to be called the Indians. From dartmouth.edu:

quote:

Dartmouth is the nation's ninth-oldest college, founded in 1769 by Rev. Eleazar Wheelock for the education of "youth of the Indian Tribes ... English Youth and others ..."

And imagine a baseball teamwearing this excellent Indian warrior logo.

Presbyterian College is the:


Blue Hose

I ain't touching that one folks!

perhaps the answer is for each college to be assigned a random series of hexadecimal symbols for identification instead of using a traditional name,
that way they could be easily identified with a digital scan - and team uniforms could have a barcode on the sleeve where the team logo normally is

that way only a very few would be offended - just us with a lick o' common sense

speaking of offensive - - - Y-clipper, ya don't really show much sensitivity yourself by
stealing the nickname of a dead baseball legend

Sun Sports tonight @ 7PM Eastern...

T.K. Weatherall, President of Florida State University will discuss the NCAA B.S.

also:

Max Osceola of the Seminole Tribe with his Oklahoma counterpart.

and:

A VP of PC from the NCAA will also take part.

Hokie ...

quote:

Presbyterian College is the:
Blue Hose
I ain't touching that one folks!

What could you possibly mean?

YC & P-Dog,
You folks are just plain wrong and over sensitive on this issue. I am 1/4 Wa****a Indian. I t is my strong belief that when the persons who sat down and made the decision for their team to be named the Indians, Braves, Seminoles or Redskins, it wasn't to make fun of themselves. I think majority of Americans who aren't bigots have a vision of an American Indian being an extremely proud, brave and fearless human being. It is unfortunate the typical "squeaky wheel" seem to get their way more & more. I don't know of any Indian who is nearly as offended by the Florida State Seminoles, Midwestern State Indians, or Atlanta Braves as I am by the absurdity of these supposedly intelligent men at the NCAA. Every year it seems there is some new ruling which makes it more difficult to enjoy the rich heritage & traditions of high school and college sports due to the governing bodies who keep us under their thumbs. It seems we are governed more & more by people who have only their own best interests and comfort zones in mind. It is disgusting.

I think that FutureBackMom's take was about right on this issue. In other words, there is room on both sides of this issue. On one hand, it appears the NCAA has way too much time on their hands, on the other there is nothing wrong with being sensitive to cartoonish or outlandish depictions that may indeed be over the top.

YC - I hadn't considered the Redskins argument before. I don't think the generic Braves and Indians names fall into a racially sensitive category however.

True. But I also never included specific tribe names with local or community ties. I do think names just grouping a whole race is questionable, but for sure cartoonish mascots and logos can be offensive.

Do Native Americans take offense to having their names in sports? Personally, I think it would be an honor. And if people say that the logos are offensive, name one that is for me please. How can a logo be offensive if it isn;t being used in a disrespectful way?

Not to presume to speak for native americans, but just based on what I read etc. there are some groups that voice opposition to names/mascots based on their heritage and some that don't. Apparently the Seminole tribe in Florida has supported FSU, while for example Native Americans have fought other schools-San Diego State comes to mind in that regard. I think the differences lie not with the use of names, but how the mascot is depicted.

Years ago when Stanford were the Indians, they had a rather cornball mascot and their cheerleaders were dressed as little Indian maidens.

As far as offensive logos, IMO, the Cleveland Indians logo is not the most respectful. At least they improved upon it somewhat from the cartoon used in the 40's 50's. The sad part of the misunderstanding here is that the Indians were named after a player and to honor him, who was the first native american to play in MLB. Prior to that they were the spiders.

The Braves Chief knock-A-homa was probably not the most respectful depiction of native Americans, but at least he has gone by the wayside.

The name redskins is derived from settlers buying the skins of corpses of slain native americans and that the is name of our nation's capital's football team.

Bottom line, I don't think it is just about names. It is about mascots, ceremonies etc. that go with it.

I went to a college located in a predominately african-american neighborhood. One of the fraternities was called the fijis. They'd dress their pledges in black face and have them run around campus and fraternity row as if they were "native savages". The annex building to their house was burned to the ground. Guess some of the neighbors didn't care for the depiction.

Notre Dame always gets mentioned in this, but their mascot is a leprechaun and those are fictional characters. Similarly, not too many Spartans and Trojans roaming our streets. Native americans are not fictional characters.

Perhaps you need only look to the concept of your own heritage being depicted as a cartoon mascot

Back to Notre Dame and the leprechaun, when Stanford's band brought this past the leprechaun and into the realm of actual people and presented a half time show about the potato famine, they were permanently banned from ND campus

If you Substitute any ethnic group and an attribute they are stereotyped for and put that in place of 100,000 college students doing war chants and the tomahawk chop, maybe the issue comes more into focus.

HB,

I agree with you. I think teams like the Seminoles, who are respectfully honoring local people and tradition, are okay. I dislike names like the Indians, Redskins, etc. The Indians is bad because, even with good original intentions, it is still a term that does not give respect to a group, but rather a whole race. With this responsibility, they have not been responsible in the past. Just look at some of their cartoonish logos. If I were Native American, I would be offended by may Indians logos. The Braves is a little better, but the 'Tomahawk Chop' and the chant is something that could easily be offensive, and trivializes a group of people. The Redskins is the worst, and that was before I knew it referred to corpses. That's not respectful, it categorizes people by skin color...something I think we SHOULDN'T DO. But the fact that it refers to corpses makes it all the more appalling.

Good post, HB.

Well then - I guess its safe to say that sausage races are OK.
And the animal thing is cool too.

Still not sure about the "Sloppy Goombahs" though.

As for the depiction of your heritage as a cartoon - if you watch TV - you will see far worse than a cartoonish depiction - of just about every heritage on the planet.

Personally - I like the previous suggestion. Use a collection of symbols (Like the singer Prince did when he changed his name) for each team.

The Michigan //*((%'s

The Georgia @@&^@!))'s

and lets not forget the Texas ***^%^%^&^'s

That way, all the people watching will be safe from being offended (Until of course they go home and turn the TV on)

Interesting.
There are, I believe 7 teams in all divisions combined using Devil.
Also 2 using that famous fighting bird, that I find quite offensive (more than any Indian names).
I won't go there with the BlUE HOSE thing, but what is a GORLOCK (Webster University) and what is a CHOCTAW (?) (Mississippi College), and what the heck are EPHS (Williams College). I find that offensive just because I have no idea what they are!
Oh and while we are at it, are any QUAKERS or PILGRIMS offended using those as mascots?

How about "Hoyas"??? Is that some native tribe of DC?

Having graduated from Oregon State University I guess I'll just be wise and leave their mascot out of this discussion!!!

Its an "offending jamboree"!!!

Here's an idea:

Lets all get together and put down a list of things that "offend" us. Then we can send it to Mr. Brand and demand action.

I do believe we will need a significant amount of bandwidth for this wonderful exercise.

to answer the post above about Georgetown, their teams were originally called the stonewalls

The had a cheer " Hoya Saxa" which is apparently latin for "what rocks". somehow over the years this cheer morphed into Hoyas.

why their mascot is a dog

Anywho, I do think there is some legitimate issues on all sides here, but I've got my own problems... my son plays for the Sagehens (try as they will to call themselves the Sagecocks, they seem to be consistently "PCed").

gotwood,
Depends where your mind is at, I was thinking animal!

http://www.ncaa-baseball.com/

Lists all Div 1,2,3, you all can pick out what offends you for that list!

Since it was brought up...coming from a family of "Quakers"....I can personally tell you that we are not offended by the University of Penn and their mascot....but don't even get us started on our opinion of that round-shaped box of oatmeal!

luvbb - lmao - you are the best!

Choctaw is a Native American tribe from the Oklahoma area, I believe.

luvbb ...
I always knew there had to be a special reason you were so passive ...

P.S. to Dr. Brand and the PCAA:

While we're at it, I recall the great shame and embarrassment felt the first time I was ever called a "jock". Coming from a small town, I had never heard the term used to refer to an athlete until getting to college in 1972.

I think it highly offensive to refer to an identifiable group of individuals by such a demeaning term, which is normally used for an article of wearing apparel that smells like a locker room, times six. Besides, female athletes don't even wear them so "lady jocks" is an oxymoron anyway. Do we call them "Sports Bras" ? I think not.

Henceforth, the PCAA/NCAA should require of all students, before being admitted to an NCAA athletic event, certification they have taken and passed a course on "Athletic Supporter Sensitivity" training. The acronymn is just great!

hokieone,

Always liked the term “athletic supporter” myself! Its gender neutral and anyone can be one, even couch potatoes. Oooopppps, hope I didn’t offend any lazy spuds!!! Sorry.

“You don’t think experience means anything until you have it.” ~ Walt Weiss

FBM....LOL ! You will notice... I said I come from a "family" of Quakers.....I'm the proverbial black sheep! But...I think you already knew that!

Actually, with the term 'jock' you get additional offensiveness....two for the price of one! My English friends were puzzled when I refered to my son as a jock....Jock being the dismissive term for Scots, much as 'Paddy' is for Irishmen.

I don't suppose having a little sense and balance is an option......

Tiger Paw Mom,

Maybe you can find a Pilgrim and ask him/her?

IT is by now pretty obvious you can offend anyone by using any name you can think of. Earlier in the discussion it was suggested the PCAA/NCAA just require the schools only be known by the school name. I think this too would would be offensive. What self respecting Texas football player would want to be known as an Oklahoman, no matter what they paid him.

Maybe there;d be some good debate or discussion if people took this issue seriously on one side or the other. Jokes about jockstraps don't find a solution. Man, and I'm a kid!

YC,
The reason a lot of folks are making wisecracks about this topic is because it is such an absurd ruling by the "powers to be" that it is laughable. IF it would do any good to curse and TYPE IN BOLD I would gladly do that. Don't keep score, everybody makes the team, everybody plays, parent pressure on school coaches, can't have mens college sports without equal womens sports, no Indian mascots. Why the heck did athletics have to become so political?

clips, We are not lawyers so we can't fix it seriously. We are just people who want to express their feelings about the subject and have a little fun with it. I am a kid too and I don't have a problem with people expressing their concerns. I might not agree with it all but it is what it is.

Yankeeclipper,

Actually I am an attorney, so I can't dodge the fuss for that reason, but part of the life lesson we all learn along the way is to never lose your sense of humor. None of us can change everything we dislike nor can we right every wrong, but sometimes, when you have a warped mind like mine, some things will just strike you as silly, and it's okay to laugh a little in this world.

There will be times when issues, people and/or events get people so uptight that you want to explode and that's when you step back, take a breath, and find a way to grin. It'll be okay.

I wonder if the PCAA is now going to move their headquarters from INDIANapolis?

Yankeeclipper,

Its all in fun. There is no stopping the tidal wave of politically correct nonsense washing over us all.

We just have to wait until the surf is in - and get a big towel to dry off.

And use sunscreen while you are waiting.

yankeeclipper,
the discussion can get serious when ya discard your stolen, ill-gotten, & offensive sceen-name - -

or is that you comin back to us, Joltin' Joe???


.

I'm just gonna ignore the name thing.

I know it's important to joke and laugh, but honestly, I think this is a more important issue than some of you see it as. You laugh and joke about the NCAA being useless, but it comes on the heels of a major decision. What is it? Pointless or important? The fact that they DID SOMETHING makes you downgrade them? Wow.

It was a decision that needed to be made, and if you look at my posts you'll see I outlined a clear, logical solution, somewhere during this SNL skit.

Yankeeclipper,

I am offended that you dont like my sense of humor.

Now I see that the infamous Florida Governor, Mr Bush, is getting into the fray-- he is going after the NCAA

quote:

Now I see that the infamous Florida Governor, Mr Bush, is getting into the fray-- he is going after the NCAA

TRhit

About time.

TR are you saying that Governor Bush should not be getting involved in something that involves
a state college supported by Florida taxes-of which he is ultimately in charge of?

BTW I believe he knows a little bit about discrimination since he is married to a lady of Hispanic descent and speaks fluent Spanish.

Or are you just making a statement of fact with a little "jab" thrown in?

Moc

It is fact and no jab intended-- perhaps he has the power to make the NCAA stand up and be counted

y'clipper, hmmm

so if I understand,
because "YOU" apparently intended no offense "taking" and using Joe's nickname - and maybe even did it to honor him - - then I should just get over it???

Well - - OK, it's cool - - I'll take your word you meant no malice, but - - that's exactly the view-point YOU have been AGAINST in this topic!

a bit of consistency would be good - that sounds like "situational values" to me??

"Syracuse Orange" is offensive to all fruit everywhere.

itsinthegame---

I like your sense of humor!

PioneerDad---

Uh oh!! You just might be opening up a whole can of worms here (you know...depends on what the definition of "is" is)...

I was browsing on logoserver.com and I came across that Northern Colorado's team name is the Fightin' Whites. Though that was kinda funny.

AK- That might be the team whose logo is a white guy with a briefcase. I think his name is Bob, but I coudl be wrong. As far as I know, it's a real team and logo.

And the Trojans?! How can you not be offended by a team named after cond . . . Oh wait. My wife tells me that a Trojan is something else. Who knew?

You know, in high school there was always a guy who made derogatory comments about other students disguised a "jokes". If the person it was directed at didn't laugh, the bully always got on him for "not having a sense of humor." When somebody makes fun of themself, that's humor. When somebody makes fun of somebody else, if the person being made fun of is insulted or hurt by it, it's not funny. Good natured ribbing is OK, as long as you're careful not to take it too far. We've all seen it happen. Once you cross the line between having fun and hurting someone, if you say "You shouldn't be so sensitive" instead of "I'm sorry", well - as far as I'm concerned, you're a jerk.

It's always easy to say somebody else shouldn't take offense at a comment, joke or caricature directed at their race, religion, ethnicity, occupation or whatever, but if you've never been in their shoes, you really have no right. I'd bet that if State U. adopted a mascot of the "Morons" - and had a candid picture of you picking your nose as the official logo - well, the humor might tend to fade after a while. Chief Wahoo? Yeah, I can see where a Native American might be a little less than thrilled with the red guy with the buck teeth. I think 'most everyone has a sensitive spot that you could find and pick away at if you tried. If it's not your sore spot, who are you to lecture?

Like I said, I try to teach my kids to respect people, even if they don't necessarily "get" where they're coming from. If your mascot offends people, what's the big deal with changing it? The Sonoma State teams used to be "Cossacks" - now they're "SeaWolves" Why? Don't know, don't care. Taking offense at people who take offense at the use of their ethnic heritage as a cartoon mascot for a college sports team just seems a little to close to that schoolyard bully for my taste.

So lets see.

If American Indians dont mind a particular mascot - in fact - actually support it and dont want it changed - some clown that lives an entirely different existance can come in and spout his views and usurp the very people that are the subject of the "offense".

Political correctness run completely amok.

Has nothing to do with bullies. It has to do with people that must have their wishes met - regardless of basic common sense. They want what they want - they are used to getting what they want - and by God they will get this too - period. Even if it has absolutely zero relevance to their lives.

Nice.

Whats next? - is someone going to tell me what movies and TV shows need to be cancelled because they portray MY heritage in a way THEY dont like. Perhaps they should just mind their own business.

P-Dog,
As stated by others, I too see offense to any group that is charaterized by a cartoon character. It is wrong.
Why doesn't the NCAA target those schools? They are being PC by taking a situation and punishing ALL.

That's what makes this thing so ridiculous.

P-dog,

TPM, now you've set cartoon characters as the standard for being offensive???

I resemble that remark!



"L-Tunes" official spokes-bunny's response to TPM's new guidelines

Daffy's thoughts

Daffy II

Daffy III

Foghorn weighs in

Porky closes (PG-13)

'inthegame, perhaps those who know what's best for us will kindly list what we should watch & not

Read this

http://www.msn.foxsports.com/other/story/3882860

ya gotta love it!

"Making this issue even trickier is approval of FSU's mascot and imagery by the leadership of real Seminoles in Florida - - - - (the) NCAA is treating Florida's Seminoles as a people lacking the wisdom to understand when they're being insulted."

so, that's why we need elitist pc's - to tell us how we really should feel

Bee,
You are silly, didn't you know I was referring to college and university logos!?!

Itsinthegame says:

quote:

If American Indians dont mind a particular mascot - in fact - actually support it and dont want it changed - some clown that lives an entirely different existance can come in and spout his views and usurp the very people that are the subject of the "offense".
Political correctness run completely amok.

I don't claim to know what all American Indians do or don't "mind". I do know that

quote:

Joely De La Torre, an American Indian activist, said the Seminole Tribe of Florida was entitled to its position. But she said many members of the nation's more than 550 tribes are insulted when Chief Osceola enters Doak Campbell Stadium on horseback before kickoff and throws a flaming spear into the ground as 80,000 fans roar.

"It's ridiculous that in 2005 you have institutions of higher learning wanting to hold on to stereotypes and images that are offensive," said De La Torre

And TRHit, thank you for the link to the commentary which included:

quote:

As expected, many wise guys of sports reporting have rolled out the big guns of cleverness in their reactionary spin.

What about people of Irish descent who may feel insulted by Notre Dame's "Fighting" description? Fine, says the NCAA. Lodge a formal protest.

The severely clever are wondering about animal lovers opposed to the use of nicknames such as Wildcats and Bears.

Sounds vaguely familiar....

P-Dog,

Well then - I guess if Joely the Activist wants it changed - it must be changed. It offends her.
I have no doubt Joely will get it changed.
And it is awfully kind that she admits that the Seminole tribe is entitled to their opinion. I am sure they are very grateful for her endorsement. LOL

I may rail against this nonsense - but I am also a realist - and even I realize political correctness has yet to run its course.

The only question I have is - where and when does this spolied rotten baby boomer nonsense stop?

My guess is as good as yours. And hopefully my guess wont offend anyone - or perhaps I might be banned from making guesses in the future.

Its, I'd be more impressed with your opinions if you didn't rely so much on name calling - "spoiled rotten baby boomer", etc. Has it occurred to you that you haven't exactly bent over backwards to try to understand the other people's point of view in this situation? I don't have a dog in this fight - I'm not an Indian, didn't go to a school with an Indian mascot - it doesn't really affect my life one way or the other. I just try not to blow off the opinions of other people - especially where things that do directly concern them is involved. I can see where a Native American would feel that his or her ethnic heritage is being disrespected by some of the silly shenanigans college mascots do. (I didn't know that "Chief Osceola" threw a flaming spear into the turf before football games, for example - kinda cheesy, don't you think?) I can also see that others might not care one way or the other. But considering that the total actual value of any particular college mascot is about the same as a pitcher of warm spit, I don't see a basis for getting all worked up over the NCAA rule requiring those that are based on Indians to be changed. It's no big deal. It's got nothing to do with "political correctness" - it's just simple respect for people.

I am not here to impress you. But lets not digress.

I understand what you are saying now.
If I dont agree that all mascots with any hint of Indian heritage be eliminated immediately- I have no respect for other people.
That is actually the ultimate in name calling - in a PC sort of way. But lets disregard that and move forward a bit - because it is really a boring exercise that we suffer through every night on the evening news and talk shows. IMO.

Here is what I want to see - and lets see if you can get my point - despite my horrific lack of sensitivity.

When my son makes an error or strikes out - and the fans call him a bum - or a POS - or some other name - I am offended.

I want all fans muzzled from now on. Full scale Hannibal Lechter type muzzle masks.
All of them.
Hopefully - you will be sensitive to my point of view. I am offended by this activity - and it must stop. It isnt fair and it is insensitive and offensive.

Muzzling all fans is the only way to stop this terrible activity.

What do you think? Can I get my needs met on this one?

Simple answer: the price you demand to avoid the possibility of someone hurting your feelings is too high. I agree, no one should call a high school baseball player a POS just because he makes an error (I assume we're in agreement here.) If it were the school policy to do that - say, if they had an announcer to do it over the PA system, I'd say that that policy should be changed. Do you disagree? But to muzzle every spectator at every game your son plays in just to avoid the possibility that somebody might say something which hurts your feelings; hmm, no. The remedy you demand is too high a price, even though I agree that no spectator should say the things you refer to about your son.

And if there was a serious loss of some kind involved in changing a mascot's name, then it would be something that would require more thought, weighing the disrespect people feel to their heritage against the cost. But the cost of changing a mascot's name is trivial. It's kind of like making a policy that the announcer at your son's games is directed not to announce that your son is a POS everytime he makes an error - pretty easy to do, no real loss to anyone, and probably a good idea.

Just simple common sense in my opinion.

I do not think it is too high a price to pay for the fans. You do - but I dont.

You are not being sensitive to my needs.

We are offended - we need a remedy.

Sound familiar?

BTW - I think at a few schools - calling him a POS was policy - especially when he had a good game. LOL

P,
I don't know about the other schools, but as far as FSU, I hope they don't lie down and give in to the fight. I have been living in FL, land of the Seminoles, for almost 30 years, I have NEVER, EVER heard any seminole complain. And FYI, we don't find the logo (mascot) offensive but I do find the HUGE, 100 FOOT HIGH SEMINOLE CASINO SIGN down the road from my neighborhood very much so.

If anyone is offended at Chief whoevercoming into the stadium, if that is the issue, fine, then deal with that issue.

This is an economic issue as well for many. It also affects the conference FSU is in, the licensing, etc. it trickles down. You are not talking about Pudunk U.

Let me add - if we are going to do this - then do it across the board.

"Giants" - no good. Offensive to very tall people who are sensitive about their height.
There are thousands of football and baseball teams with that name.

"Vikings" - no good. Offensive to people with a Nordic heritage. Lots of high schools with that name.

"Pee Wee and Midget Football" - no good - short people are offended.

Little League - no good. Just call it league. Little implies inferiority to some people.

Minor league - no good. Same as above.

Cowboys - no good. Lots of people in the southwest are offended.

Twins - no good. The Olson girls hate it.

And on and on we go with this silliness.

Serious question: Will PETA get involved and try to get animal names removed next?

And last question - when will this craziness end?

As Forrest Gump said (no offense to Forrest):
"And that is all I have to say about that"

quote:

And TRHit, thank you for the link to the commentary which included:

The severely clever are wondering about animal lovers opposed to the use of nicknames such as Wildcats and Bears.

I know, Its, sarcasm is sooooooo hard to express in writing, but still.....

Its ...

quote:

Serious question: Will PETA get involved and try to get animal names removed next?

Some may think you are trivializing this subject by asking such as question but you aren't far from reality. Here on the Left Coast, animal rights' activists tried to get a fast food commercial off the air because it made fun of chickens (the tone of the commercial had to do with lab scientists looking ALL over a chicken for her nuggets). The gal that started the campaign said that chickens have feelings and that the commercial was humiliating to them when the scientists appeared to look in private areas. Another group has tried to get commecials off the air which feature cattle in California who live a charmed life on grassy sunny hills because the commercials do not reflect the TRUE picture of our dairy cattle in California.

For P-Dog and yankeeclipper ...
I do understand what you are saying and I also think that we need to be considerate of the sensitivities of other cultures and ethnicities. And I honestly don't think anybody here is interested in being disrespectful. However, there are several questions I would like to ask the powers that be at NCAA:
(1) Why is football exempt? If the mascots are offensive, are they any less offensive to football fans? Or could it be that football is the money maker for NCAA and they wouldn't want to bite the hands that feed them?
(2) Why only in post-season play? Is it not offensive the rest of the season? Or is this like their policy of removing any reference to alcoholic beverages at college fields (such as advertisements and including the sale of beer) during post-season play? [After all, it is allowed the rest of the year. I can understand possible advertising conflicts when the games are televised but that doesn't happen at all the regionals so why there?]
(3) Is there nothing more important on their agendae than this? There are so many important issues they could deal with that involve the safety and health of our young men ... steroids, smokeless tobacca (which is more prevalent than many people are aware of), metal bats, etc. If this is the way it has to be, fine. But does it have to be at this scale?

Just some thoughts ...

The decision does not affect football because there is no NCAA tournament! How convenient.

To me, this is their own version to compromise and make some PC people happy WITHOUT biting the hand that feeds them.

Actually the answer to both 1 and 2 is that those things are outside of the NCAA's jurisdiction, so they have no ability to enforce. (Although I think only Div. 1 football has its own sanctioning bowl organization. I assume that the new rule would apply to Div. II and III postseason play as well.) As to No. 3, that's a valid point. Team mascots are not the biggest deal in the universe. I'm a little surprised that the NCAA saw fit to take action on this issue when there's a lot of other stuff worth looking at. Maybe its because it is such a trivial thing that they felt it could be done without spending a lot of time agonizing over it.

This issue bothers myself, and others I think, for reasons unrelated to much of what has been discussed here. Simply put, I see the tail wagging the dog.

I live around the University of Illinois even though I didn't attend that school except for a couple of classes many years ago. I don't live and die with Fighting Illini sports. But I do see firsthand the ongoing battle.

The people making all the noise are a small minority. Oh, they yell loudly enough to try and convince the rest of us otherwise, but it just isn't so. A recent example: some of the U of I faculty long advocated for a referendum by the student body as to whether they supported the use of Chief Illiniwek. When the vote was finally held, the student body overwhelmingly supported the Chief and his continued use. After the vote, and the devastating loss, the Chief opponents decreed that since only about half the student body voted, that must mean that the other half opposes the Chief! Victory after all!

This example sums up the problems that bother me. First, a very small minority is making the fight. Nothing wrong with their expressing their opinions just as there is nothing wrong with the majority rejecting them. Second, the lack of logic and rational thought, as in most things dealing with political correctness, is astounding and bothersome. Third, we the majority better wake up and fight back or we will find our lives being dictated by that small but vocal minority. The minority knows this which is why they yell louder after each defeat. The old adage that the squeaky wheel gets the grease is too true in this instance.

We are a country where the majority is supposed to rule but with concern for the minority. If the issue is so significant that a ruling should be in favor of the minority, such as with voting rights and segregation issues, then that's what we do. But this issue is not significant except in the minds of a few. (There aren't even any indians of the Illinois federation of tribes left to complain; they were wiped out long ago by other indian tribes.)

The claim that the minority is offended is irrelevant. That's not said out of disrespect; it's simply true. We don't govern this country based on what offends people. Or at least we shouldn't.

Here's the final problem. So long as the minority keeps yelling, they are likely to win. There will come a time, maybe it's already here, when the vast majority will wash their hands of the issue and give in because they don't want to waste any more time on a trivial issue. And that will be wrong. Because the issue isn't about Indian mascots (which issue is trivial), but about how we are going to govern this country in the future.