High school summer ball hurt development?

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Originally posted by Playball2:

your not serious, are you?

Maybe I define "development" a bit differently, which would be Junior's overall growth as a player/pitcher and getting him ready to play in college, if given the opportunity. Development would not include running a risk to derail those opportunities.

So, in that context, I would say: Yes, I am serious. His HS coach already knows what he can do, Junior was told he would not be expected to pitch that day and his HS coach knew Junior had some opportunities coming up for which he needed to be fresh. Overall, his HS coach gets it and is very good with such things. His HS and travel coach work together on a schedule and for that, I am thankful. But, because he threw when he didn't need to, opportunities now will pass him by.

I also understand the strain could have happened at any time. But, as a parent, it becomes hoping, praying and cringing every time he stepped on the mound for a couple of innings at times when he didn't need to be out there.

To me, HS Spring, HS Summer playoffs and playing/pitching in front of coaches/scouts is one thing, and pitching in a situation that doesn't matter is another. Why run the risk?

Used to Hit 300- If your son only pitches when he "needs to be out there", how do you expect him to perform at his peek ability when it matters? Doesn't he need a bullpen session occasionally anyway? Doesn't he need to work on his pitches? Also, you better not give him the reputation of being a little china doll or that will steer coaches away from him more than a poor outing.

It's been my experience that HS coaches far too often are inexperienced at virtually every aspect of coaching. For every solid coach there seem to be 5 lost souls.

No where was this more apparent than at a local private HS that has a fabulous reputation for athletics in general. Freshman and sophomore players were subjected to a man that shouldn't have coached tee ball.

Not every player can play at OPRF, Brother Rice or St. Rita......etc.

At least on the high end Illinois and the midwest in general have some excellent Travel ball opportunities. My advice...if your kid is not a high end performer, keep him with the HS summer team. If he is a high end performer get him with one of several Travel teams where he can gain exposure and find out just how good he is.

The better the HS prgram is, the more likely the coach will be willing to work out a schedule that is right for the HS team and the player.

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It's been my experience that HS coaches far too often are inexperienced at virtually every aspect of coaching. For every solid coach there seem to be 5 lost souls.

And that isn't rampant in travel ball, select ball, whatever? Daddbyball anyone???

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Originally posted by Used to Hit 300:
But, as a parent, it becomes hoping, praying and cringing every time he stepped on the mound for a couple of innings at times when he didn't need to be out there.

To me, HS Spring, HS Summer playoffs and playing/pitching in front of coaches/scouts is one thing, and pitching in a situation that doesn't matter is another. Why run the risk?

This is meant very respectfully, so I hope it doesn't come out wrong...but the point, is to play. Teaching timidity, which has come up twice now in the last week, is counter productive, not only to sport, but to the development of a person.

What is the risk? That you won't be able to play the game. Sounds like a catch 22. If you play the game, you risk not being able to play the game, but not playing the game means you're not playing the game you don't want to risk playing.

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Originally posted by CPLZ:

This is meant very respectfully, so I hope it doesn't come out wrong...but the point, is to play. Teaching timidity, which has come up twice now in the last week, is counter productive, not only to sport, but to the development of a person.

What is the risk? That you won't be able to play the game. Sounds like a catch 22. If you play the game, you risk not being able to play the game, but not playing the game means you're not playing the game you don't want to risk playing.

In response, respectfully, he plays plenty - usually getting 7-9 innings on the mound per week, some infield/outfield and his AB's. He wants to be on the field. I completely understand the Catch 22 and it is not the issue. It's just with the HS coach knowing what the kid has/had on his playing plate, I just thought it to be an unnecessary risk. Respectfully

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Originally posted by soxnole:
And that isn't rampant in travel ball, select ball, whatever? Daddbyball anyone???

Too often I have noticed the travel ball, select ball, whatever coaches are there to coach the game (fill in the line-up) and not coach the game. soxnole, some daddy's actually have somewhat of a clue.

used to hit .300...I could get your point if had gotten hurt because he was overpitched at the time of the injury...but if he wasn't I don't get your point. Is he allowed to throw any time he "doesn't need to?" You could say throwing the ball from anywhere but the mound is an unneccesary risk.

Some coaches would never let a blue-chip pitcher play outfield just for that reason. Why let a kid try to gun down a runner at home from 250 feet away? That seems like far more of a risk than pitching.

Thinking about heading out to the old high school ballyard tomorrow to see many of these players on both sides get their baseball development stunted. Should be fun.

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Originally posted by Playball2:

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That gets back to my point exactly, why play games 4 days a week and NEVER practice? Why not play 3 days a week and practice on those 'weaknessess" on the practice day instead of waiting for the "offseason"?

DTA,if there is one thing that I am confident of it is that travel fails at the same level to practice as many times as you suggest HS baseball to practice (infact this baseball utopia you speak of doesn't exist). While it true about all sports, you get better at the game by playing. There is great difficulty in simulating all that baseball can encompass.

Secondly,You state that this is not a debate about HS ball, but you finish your statement by stating that travel ball is light years ahead of HS baseball. I have spent many a year watching and evaluating the efforts of those light years ahead and have found it to be significantly inconclusive as it applies to the development of my players (and I have had many). There is a major distinction between Travel and HS summer programs, I said it before and I will say it again. Summer baseball is about identifying strengths and weaknessess within the team/individual. Travel ball is about exposure, instuction/instructors is of great quality and poor quality, no different then any level of baseball. But there is a freedom I have in HS that leads to a multitude of teachable moments and develops skill with out the consequence of not being deemed a prospect.

As an example: we will hit and run on 1-1 counts with one out and a man on first. No matter the score/inning/pitcher/catcher. Or we will sacrafice bunt innings 5/6/7 again, no matter the score/innings/out.

So before you pass judgement think, which really enhances player development.

Playball2 - you are probably more the exception, not the rule when it comes to coaches and working on things to make your team better from what I have seen, heard and talked to players who are playing in summer league games.

No duh the travel team fails at the same level of practice that the HS team does. I do not get any of the players during the week because they play with their HS teams and I would never insist that a kid missed his HS games. Not sure where I said anything about this baseball utopia, because it does not exist around here.

I would contend that the better HS players that are juniors and incoming seniors would be better off NOT playing HS summer baseball and playing more travel level games or legion leagues, whatever it is that gets them more games against better competition. It is also my opinion because MOST do not, summer baseball hurts their development.
For the average player, you are probably right, the HS summer season does have some benefits for them, and even the higher level player gets some benefits from summer baseball (AB's) and innings pitched.

Practice - doesn't need to be the worthless 3 hr practice where nothing gets done. A quick 1.5 hour practice working on fielding groundballs (can never get enough groundballs) and situations, covering first etc once a week can do nothing but improve young ballplayers. If a kid does not want to or like practice, then maybe he does not want to be a ball player. This again is just my opinion.

In the off season, I don't think kids should be forced to play travel baseball or high school off season baseball.

Results are what count! Someone needs to check the results of all those that play one or the other.

The results could include the success of the individual high schools which would be measured by wins and loses or championships. Or the results could be measured by what happens to the individual players as far as moving on to the next level or highest levels.

Either way, competing against the best possible competition in front of hundreds of college coaches can be very benificial. Whether it is travel or high school, lack of competition is not going to help a whole lot.

We are very lucky because we get to see most of the top players from Illinois. (Those who experience the "most" success in recruiting or the draft)

We do not go to any high school games in Illinois during the summer. That's not to say that MLB scouts and college recruiters don't.

If this is all about development... Players need the best possible at developing talent and the best possible competition. The best at developing talent could be either the high school coach, the travel coach, or someone who works with individuals. I believe the best competition involves playing against the best players and best teams in the country. Travel teams that don't travel, probably will not understand this.

There's a very good reason why the best players usually end up playing for one of the top travel teams from Illinois. Same thing in any other state, for that matter. Just my opinion! I have been wrong many times!

My kids were pitchers and I watched all this summer high school baseball for the last 5 years. My opinions of it are mixed.

It is better to face hitters than just throw a bullpen.

"Throwing" versus "pitching" doesn't develop the pitcher's pitching skills.

Our pitchers never call their own pitches during the spring but call their own games in the summer (other than the playoff games.)

However, if a kid has mechanical issues it generally is not going to be worked on in the summer.

Looking back I would say it was better than nothing but at least at our high school, it really did not help them make big strides in developing their pitching skills. As for exposure, I see fewer and fewer people coming to watch.

Used to hit 300..............

Please don't misquote me.

Proof Read, comprehend and make sure you know who the heck your talking to.

I'm actually on your side of the argument, though Daddyball is more often a problem than a path to success...it's not about being a Dad but about your qualifications and your assistant's qualification.

Not every travel team has a Top Tier, Wisconsin Blazers, Norwood Blues or Indiana Yankee type of staff. Not every travel team has a Buddy Swift or Bill Copp at the helm.

Every "travel team" stands on its own and should be evaluated with extreme scrutiny. I have seen some scary travel teams in my day.

Well said as usual Soxnole.

Rich Pildes as been a tremedous help to my son as the Norwood Blues coach. They only practice the first week, but we do have an extensive pre-game whenever possible. Pildes takes notes and goes over situations that presented itself in each game and discusses why things were done, what could have been done better, or what was done well. It is how to play baseball strategically. Fundamentals are not taught fot the most part, although he has been known to help kids before and after games if he thinks it is necessary. He has also recommended coaches that give lessons if he feels a kid needs it.

But, my son was lucky with summer high school ball. He had Ron Zagorsky and others coach in summer. The summer team would show up an hour before games to practice, then play the game. Fundamentals were worked on in the high school level.

Travel and summer ball coexisted because the coaches all wanted my son to be the best he could be. During the week, he would play hs summer ball if there was no conflict. If there was, he would play travel. Of course, he wasn't a pitcher which obviously complicates matters.

You can get lucky with coaches. You can also be unlucky. My son has been lucky to have had Pildes, Tichy, and Toledo, as well as great assistants like Zagorsky, Casey and Sanchez.

quote:

Originally posted by soxnole:
Used to hit 300..............

Please don't misquote me.

Proof Read, comprehend and make sure you know who the heck your talking to.

I'm actually on your side of the argument, though Daddyball is more often a problem than a path to success...it's not about being a Dad but about your qualifications and your assistant's qualification.

soxnole - we are on the same page and I had no intention of misquoting you. Paraphrasing the current Supreme Court nominee, my comment fell flat. I too have seen daddyball - and travel ball - at it's worst. And I have seen daddyball prepare kids better than non-daddy's coaching travel teams. It is all about the qualifications.

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It is better to face hitters than just throw a bullpen.

and vice versa from the offensive stand point. Again if it is development we are speaking of I see no better opportunity than HS summer league. Again, making attempts to enhance what ever skill without the threat of being written off as a prospect.

Regardless of HS Summer Ball or Travel Ball, development has to come from the player 1st and foremost thru effort and commitment that seldom have that many wish they had.

For him to fully develop over the Summer/Fall/Winter into Spring, he'll have to work hard when neither HS or Travel ball are going on b/c there isn't enough time regardless of either direction to fully develop.

Whether that means a players needs improve his arm strength and throw long-toss off a brick wall or him and a buddy go a local cage and work on hitting by doing tee/soft-toss drills etc.

True maxmimum effort will go further than deciding one way or the other between Travel ball or HS.

UK...true but irrelevant to the discussion, let alone stating the obvious.

After two weeks of not pitching, HS coach wants Junior to throw an inning last night to check recovery status. Two pitches in, Junior takes a line drive off of his pitching hand. Just too funny.

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After two weeks of not pitching, HS coach wants Junior to throw an inning last night to check recovery status. Two pitches in, Junior takes a line drive off of his pitching hand. Just too funny.

Wow common sense ain't too common in Chi-town, huh? Why would you allow that? Why would your son allow that? If the doctor did not clear him to pitch, he should NOT pitch!

.

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Wow common sense ain't too common in Chi-town, huh?

We used to have quite a deep reservoir of it years ago...



...but we're tapped out now!

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Originally posted by soxnole:
UK...true but irrelevant to the discussion, let alone stating the obvious.

How is it irrelevant?

Parents put too much focus on travel ball/Summer, how many showcases can we afford to have my son enter, etc?

It isn't some magic potion to guarantee every wish simply b/c your son plays travel ball over HS or vice versa.

Picking one or the other likely matters very little in the overall development of a baseball athlete picking one or the other.

I'd rather practice less with a quality instructor than more with a poor one.

The only that gets discussed in travel/HS debates in trying to compare them to one another rather than what separates them from each other for that individual child.

Very seldom does the quality of coaches get mentioned nor does the actual effort an athlete puts into it get mentioned, it's not stating the obvious b/c so many kids don't do much beyond what is expected, the kids with the great make-up stick out it doesn't require talent to do yet is extremely hard to find. Just b/c you pay for something (showcase, travel, equip.) doesn't automatically that he'll get the most out of it. It's up to the child to get the most out of something, not some HS or travel ball program. Some kids and way too many parents look for excuses rather than looking closer to home when something doesn't go their child's way. Most of the time it is a lack of god given ability and sometime effort as to why he didn't develop as you had hoped rather than some coaching flaw.

UK,

Because it go's without saying....if not irrelavant it is superflous!

Re-read my posts...coaching is what it's all about.

If your kid is a better than average player then he might lean to TB or HS based on the opportunity.

Some players with no rep or clout would certainly be better off playing for OPRF or St. Rita than an also ran travel team. The flip side is that the elite travel teams can provide a signifigant step up with regard to competition and
instruction...depending on the HS team, the travel team and playing time.

Hard work and dedication is a given regardless of who you are and where you play.

I agree, just having seen and heard some of the excuses throughout the years from parents and kids, sometimes I wonder how obvious what I said is actually obvious.

My son is a rising senior playing on a top travel team this summer. There are probably 12 kids on the team who will end up with scholarships to D1 schools by the time the recruiting process is over.

The reason I bring this up is I cannot believe the amount of pressure that their high school coaches put on some (most) of these kids to come back from their tournament to play in a meaningless summer high school playoff game. There have been recruiters (and a few head coaches) from top schools at our travel games throughout the summer determining a player's future and in addition to the pressure these kids naturally feel from that situation they also have to deal with phone calls from high school coaches telling them how selfish they are because they don't drop everyone and come home to play in front of grandma (assuming she's not busy). It is the most unbelievable thing I have ever witnessed. Kids have been almost in tears after talking with their coaches. I know of one coach who pulled his hs team together to tell them before a game how selfish this one player is because he was not there and instead was playing with his travel team.

Don't believe for a moment that its only the lower level hs coaches who pull this stunt, the top hs teams coaches do the same. I know it first hand. The recruiting window is very small and the opportunities as we all know are few. The top 5% kids must get out there during the summer and play in front of the colleges and the hs ball must take a back seat (if at all). Think for a moment if the shoe was on the other foot; that is, a high teacher's professional development was affected by a short time frame in the summer. Think under this scenario that a hs administration telling the coach that instead of his future and professional development he must instead attend a meaningless optional event. The union bosses would be all over it and it would be handled in their next contract. These hs coaches get away with this nonsense simply because they can. My nephew in Coloradio was not allowed to play summer travel ball last year and his baseball career is over. Would his career be over if he was allowed to play travel ball during this important time in his life? Maybe, maybe not but he'll never know.

What I've wintessed this summer listening to parents and players (thankfullly its not my sons coach, he's been great)is nothing short of a scandal. If I was to give one piece of advice to 8th grade parents about your son's post high school dreams it would be check out your hs school coaches philosophy on travel ball, particularly the summer of his junior year. Its a make or break attitude that could affect his future more than anything else.

For an overwhelming number of schools it may be concluded that the number one priority of high school baseball is not about the development of the individual's baseball skills, it is about "something different." Fill in the blanks.

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My nephew in Coloradio was not allowed to play summer travel ball last year and his baseball career is over. Would his career be over if he was allowed to play travel ball during this important time in his life? Maybe, maybe not but he'll never know.

What I've wintessed this summer listening to parents and players (thankfullly its not my sons coach, he's been great)is nothing short of a scandal. If I was to give one piece of advice to 8th grade parents about your son's post high school dreams it would be check out your hs school coaches philosophy on travel ball, particularly the summer of his junior year. Its a make or break attitude that could affect his future more than anything else.

Well done IGBALL condemn a whole institution because of hearsay and a nephew who didn't move forward. Sounds pretty arbitrary. Let me represent the remaining shred of dignity that was afforded to us HS coaches after this post by saying this. Don't play HS baseball. If there is a better option then take it. Why would you want to put your son in a program that fails to look out for his best interest. It is the one thing that continues to baffle me. Aren't parents supposed to be protecting their kids, but they would continue to put them back into a situation that fails to enhance their person. Come on. You actions speak louder than, your words. You can't have both. Make a decision and don't look back. Hindsight is always 20/20, hope you've make the right decision, for your sons sake.

Playball,

Trying to understand your point. My nephew is not the subject of the post but only one small example. The point is many many hs coaches only care about themselves and not their players future (again not all, my son's hs coach is great as I mentioned). What many of them have put some kids through this summer is not make believe but nothing short of abuse. Your point seems to be that if you don't like the abuse don't play hs baseball at all. Either grin and bare it or leave. Very enlightened reasoning. I think one part of a teacher/ coaches job is to help some kids play on the next level. Do you think for the top kids that that goal is best reached on your summer field or in front of hundreds of college recruiters elsewhere? If you don't like me mentioning this fact about your profession how about the poor kid with tears in his eyes because his hs coach ripped him in front of his team simply because he wants to play college baseball? This instance is not isolated but pervasive and is not hearsay. I think you would like to keep these ugly facts about some of your brethren in the dark and your comments only suppport my point that some (again not all) coaches do this because they can.

BTW, its not about my son either, he's doing just fine thank you. It's about the abuse other fine kids have received at the hands of hs coaches this summer. It's a scandal.

We faced this issue when my last son was playing. I do understand that those kids who want to play on a higher level want the challenges associated with high level travel ball. But I'd hate to think that all these kids are so talented and so on the fast track that they can't enjoy their HS experience, and if any kid around here thinks they are too big to play for their HS in The Summer League Playoffs maybe that's not a good thing.

I'm not saying playing with your Travel Buddies isn't a good thing, but there is an awful lot to be said about going to HS and the memories and experince that goes with it. There are certainly a few players around who truly are that special that perhaps giving up those HS experiences is just the right thing to do.

Once it becomes business and nothing but a business for a HS kid, I'm not sure that is a good thing.

I guess I'm not making the point very well. It's not about being too big for your team or by-passing the joy of hs baseball. It's about some kids desire to continue to play this great game after high school and them putting in the time, effort and cost associated with those dreams during the summer after their junior year and simply not having to deal with abusive hs coaches in the process.

I don't think its too much to ask.

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What many of them have put some kids through this summer is not make believe but nothing short of abuse

But that is not the institution, that is the individual coach. I do agree that part of my job is to get kids to the next level. Something I work very hard at. However I want to put a polished product out on the field, there are things that the individual can develop within the summer league that won't deem him a non-prospect.

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There are certainly a few players around who truly are that special that perhaps giving up those HS experiences is just the right thing to do.

Once it becomes business and nothing but a business for a HS kid, I'm not sure that is a good thing.

Agreed, 100%