High School Team issues...What do I do?

quote:

Originally posted by HVbaseballDAD:
I personally have NEVER seen a situation where a parent coaching did not result in favoritism - sometimes extreme - for their kid and their friends. Whether it is in innings played, first crack at their favorite position, spot in the batting order, reps in the cage or the field, benefit of the doubt when playing poorly, etc. If someone is equal or better than their son at a position, the first move is to try to convince the other kid that they would be better at another position.

All of the parent coaches out there can say it is not them, that they treat their kid the same or worse, but I think 90% would probably say that and I have never seen it.

I've seen plenty of daddyball in rec and travel sports up to 14U. It happens because there isn't a vetting process for a dad starting his own travel team or much of a vetting process for rec ball where programs usually have to beg people to coach.

But in middle school and high school I haven't seen it. The dads were coaches before their kids came through the school. In my son's high school baseball conference there were two dad coaches. Many parents outside these programs weren't aware of the situation. One kid was an all-conference catcher. One kid was an all-conference outfielder. Both their dads played college ball. It would make sense their kids would be talented and earn their positions. One of the coaches was an assistant on my son's showcase team. My son played center over his son when my son played outfield.

At my son's high school the basketball coach had a son in the program. The kid got insignificant varsity playing time his junior year. It wasn't until his senior year he was a starter.

The observation that HS Dad-coaches are far less likely to be an issue in HS rings true to me, as there will usually be a fairly thorough vetting process (as CabbageDad ad others noted). I also agree with the observation that a kid who rises to the level of a Dad coach who is already established at that level is usually a sign that trouble is less likely, as it is if the Dad is making a conscious and transparent effort to avoid being involved in the coaching of his kid and playing level/time decisions involving their kid.

I have seen the "Daddy Ball" phenomenon FAR more often in travel/select ball than in HS, and as I said before, it is usually at younger ages - mostly after a year where the Dad thinks his kid got a short stick and decides to form his own team for the kid's benefit, often after undermining the coach his kid used to play for and taking some of that coach's players as a result. So...14U, maybe even as young as 13U. After those ages, players and parents get wiser to this game and it becomes less and less common (or so it seems, as a general matter).

Today's HS is more and more an extension of (or a supplement to) travel ball, and in the more politicized world of HS sports today, it is hard to see parents of older travel/select ball players putting up with s*it in a HS coach that they wouldn't in a travel/select ball coach without doing a lot of complaining to the AD.

That said, the OP described a classic "Daddy Ball" situation, where younger travel/select coaches move up with their sons (and another Dad comes in as a new coach without having coached before because he is unhappy about how his son was handled on a team with lots of the same players that are now competing for HS spots). Obviously, we can't know the truth of that situation, but taking the OP's description at face value, this is a RED FLAG situation for sure.

I still wouldn't jump ship after freshman tryouts just because my freshman kid didn't immediately make V, but I'm not going to tell the OP his instincts are wrong, either.

Argh! RJM posted many of the same thoughts while I was writing my post and said much of it better! Sorry for the duplicative points.....

This brings up another point. Why would you want to coach your kid? It will just add stress for the kid. My father was always a principal or superintendent at the schools I attended. I took a world of irritation from students, staff and other parents because of the fact that my father was in charge. I cannot see any benefit that would outweigh the pain that would be caused to any kid by having your dad as your HS coach.

My son played with the son of the varsity coach last year. The kid was a stud, and now is now at an SEC school who saw playing time this weekend as a freshman. With that said, nobody ever questioned why he played shortstop or batted third in the lineup, since he backed it up. Good kid, too.

As far as why would you want your kid to play for you in high school? My wife is a teacher and our kids go to the district she teaches, and my daughter is in the classroom across the hall this year. I guess these coaches figure that if the school is good enough to give them a job, its good enough for your kids to attend.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:

"This brings up another point. Why would you want to coach your kid? It will just add stress for the kid."

That's a fair question.

In my case, the answer is as simple as "they asked me to." It is important to me to do whatever I can to help the coach and the program, so when he asked me to coach (which was before my kid got there, BTW) I did it.

Before this season began, I told the coach I had some misgivings about continuing to be on the staff if at the same level my kid ends up, because I didn't want other players to feel that he hasn't earned anything he gets, but I also that I also didn't want to miss his games. I didn't see much of an option but to NOT coach, and I still feel that will be the case if I am in the dugout. He suggested being a roving guy at all levels, and keeping score or some other duty outside of the dugout on game days, and I am willing to do that if it is important to him that I do that.

We'll see if it works out - but I am sensitive to what you are saying. If my kid ever expressed reservations, or on the day I hear even a single grumble about my kid getting some "undeserved" thing, I will probably resign from the staff.....

Mizzou,
If the kid is a standout and no doubt SEC material, that is one thing. But most are not. I still wouldn't do it even if my kid is SEC bound. I appreciate my dinner table being a calm place and the relationship between a player and his HS coach is something that I would want my son to experience on his own. It is special and helps develop a kids maturity. It helps them to deal with problems and work things out with adults. This is my opinion only of course. But all of us say, let the kid talk to the coach, not the parents. It is a time for growing up.

Doughnut ...

I coached my daughter in rec and travel softball through showcase ball. I coached her in rec and travel basketball. For several years she was the stat keeper for the travel basketball team until she was good enough to make it. I coached my son in rec and travel baseball and basketball. By showcase ball he needed someone other than me to kick him in the rear.

It was easy to coach my kids coaching my kids. They played based on their talent. I couple of times I was accused by parents of going overboard not giving them what my kids what they deserved to the detriment of the team. And yes, in the preteen years I heard some, "They start (or play x position) because of their dad" from ignorant parents.

I coached my kids with the following rule in mind. I didn't treat them any differently than any other player. They didn't treat me any differently than any other coach. We rarely crossed the line. The one exception to this rule was my kids had to be a model citizens as to not undermine my authority.

The one time my son critically violated the citizenship rule in 13U I suspended him from the team for the remainder of a tournament.

RJM,
You may not be seeing the problem. No matter what you do, you will be second guessed. You are the parent, they are your kids. It will be brought up. You say they won the jobs based on their talent and that could very well be the case. But all parents have rose colored glasses. You, me and the parent of the kid your son is playing in front of.

It is not such a big deal in travel because anyone can leave a team. But in HS, most parents don't have the resources to move their kids to a different school. They have to play in the district that they live in and if the Dad is a coach and your son plays the same position as the coaches kid, there will be problems.

I believe if you are a father who loves his son it is impossible to completely 100 percent divorce yourself of all fatherly emotions when you get to the ballpark. I am a father first and always and proud to be so. That is the problem. I believe that anyone who says they can treat their son and a kid they met yesterday identically is not being truthful with themself.

Doughnut ...

I never paid attention to any parental second guessing. My favorite was a father (without knowing) telling my wife my son is the youngest starter and playing point guard only starts because of his father. My son proceeded to score 29 points with about 20 coming on steals covering his point guard son.

Seattle ...

I coached baseball and basketball before I had kids. I had very little problem seperating the emotions of coaching my kids. Even when I'm not coaching I'm not emotional on the sideline while watching them.

my son would never have permitted me to coach hi hs team

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
RJM,
You may not be seeing the problem. No matter what you do, you will be second guessed. You are the parent, they are your kids. It will be brought up.

Doughnutman,
This is not a problem. It is the nature of coaching that you will be second guessed for MANY of your decisions. If a coach can't handle second guessing, now that would be a problem.

I've been here 20 years. My boys play football, basketball and wrestle for other coaches but I am the head baseball coach here. I ain't leaving and neither are they.

cabbagedad,
It is the nature of the beast. Are your kids mature enough to handle the second guessing that they will have to put up with from teammates and parents and boosters of the program? I am sure YOU can handle it. Just speaking from experience. I heard more c r a p than my Dad ever did and he was just in administration.

Just trying to help. It will not affect my kids either way.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
I've been here 20 years. My boys play football, basketball and wrestle for other coaches but I am the head baseball coach here. I ain't leaving and neither are they.

Well said.

Last try. It will not affect the coach all that much. You will not hear the stuff that is said to your son. It may just be a little bit tougher on your kid than you think.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Last try. It will not affect the coach all that much. You will not hear the stuff that is said to your son. It may just be a little bit tougher on your kid than you think.

My kids believed in their ability. If anyone bothered them they would have ignored it. A parent even got in my daughter's face one year and told her she plays short because of daddy. She looked at the woman like she was out of her mind.

But most people knew I didn't play favorites. My daughter didn't start for me in basketball the first four years. The fifth year she started two games before I decided she wasn't ready.

I turned down the opportunity to coach in the middle school and high school. But had I preceeded my kids there I wouldn't have quit.

Let's hear from some people that had their Dad as their HS coach. Anybody out there? It is completely different from travel. The kid can't leave!! The kid can't go to his parents for help to try to figure out a way to solve the problem when their Dad is the problem. It is not a good situation most of the time. Trust me on this. I went through a very similar situation. It was not fun. I can only imagine how much worse it would be if my Dad was the coach. It is not about you. It is about your kid and his HS experience. Not yours.

Come on, am I crazy? Was I the only one to experience this kind of thing as a kid? Anybody have their Dad as a coach or admin in HS?

quote:

It is not about you. It is about your kid and his HS experience. Not yours.

From some of the things I've seen, it can be far from the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
RJM,
You may not be seeing the problem. No matter what you do, you will be second guessed. You are the parent, they are your kids. It will be brought up. You say they won the jobs based on their talent and that could very well be the case. But all parents have rose colored glasses. You, me and the parent of the kid your son is playing in front of.

I don't quite understand why any decent coach would be so worried about second-guessing and parents' skewed viewpoints. Hell, you gotta deal with that whether you coach your son or not.

Seems like your whole point is coaching your own kid is bad because people will gossip behind your back and say mean things to your kid. Seems to me to be two very trivial things.

The coach at St. Thomas HS in Houston is Craig Biggio. He has had two sons play for him at that school. One son is a junior there right now. He is a very advanced player for his age.

The St Thomas team coached by Biggio has won a Texas state championship both of the last two years. I wonder if any of the parents complain about daddy ball? I wonder how many parents would like to have their high school kids coached by Craig Biggio.

I think I can give a unique perspective on this debate from the head coaches point of view. When I was head coach in Kentucky we had a kid in our program who was coming in as a Freshman and his dad asked if he could coach. Now the reason why I even considered it is because he had coached youth leagues the entire time I was there and I saw where he was doing good things with those kids....plus he had pitched at AAA and had a good AA career.

I was hesitant at first because I wasn't sure if he was in it for his son or if he was in it for the team. We talked a few times during basketball games and talked philosophy. I liked where he was coming from and then I dropped the bomb question and asked if he was in it for his son or the team. His honest response was he was in it for both. We talked about perception among the guys on the team and if he was going to show favortisim or if he was going to be to tough on his son to keep from it looking like favortism. He said he was aware of those things and he believed he could balance the two.

So I hired him as my pitching coach and it was one of the best decisions I ever made. He didn't favor his son, he had the best interests of the team and there were a few times where he was tougher on his son but it wasn't that bad. I'm sure there were some grumblings from people in the stands but it didn't matter because those same people would have found something else to complain about if I hadn't hired him.

No doubt I was afraid this was going to blow up in my face and destroy the chemistry of my team but in the end I couldn't pass up what this guy had to offer in terms of a coach. He stayed on after his son graduated and even coached one more year after I resigned and moved from the area. I can't say this is going to always be the case and I would still prefer not to hire parents for my staff. But you still have to consider it because it may be the best thing you can do.

Coming from a coach's wife's perspective:
Coaches sometimes CAN'T not coach their sons because their JOB is coaching their son's sport!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
The coach at St. Thomas HS in Houston is Craig Biggio. He has had two sons play for him at that school. One son is a junior there right now. He is a very advanced player for his age.

The St Thomas team coached by Biggio has won a Texas state championship both of the last two years. I wonder if any of the parents complain about daddy ball? I wonder how many parents would like to have their high school kids coached by Craig Biggio.

I think there is a big difference between a son playing for a professional coach and a dad who is volunteering.

Keep in mind that for every story that is a good one there are stories of professional coaches who show unearned favoritism towards their sons, and stories where the coaches were exceptionally harder on their sons than on other players.

I think that what some people are trying to say is that this arrangement doesn't always work well for most but there are exceptions.