FYI, I'm not an internet hitting guru! I've been doing this for a year or two and have had some success. You know what? I still have a lot to learn. When I make posts on hitting, I readily admit that there are subjects I won't get very indepth discussing including "Moving the Middle" per agreements elsewhere. However, when I post those things I've discovered be it video work or working with my hitters, it is simply one person's observations on a long journey. Naturally, I have my own opinions about who I enjoy discussing hitting with and I know that swingbuster does as well. While we aren't in the same "camp" I've always appreciated his knowledge. As I've stated before, I consider Blue Dog a friend. Ok so I'll stay out of these discussion for now.
Hmmm... CoachB25, was your post directed at me?
quote:Originally posted by Sandman:
Hmmm... CoachB25, was your post directed at me?
No, really it wasn't directed at anyone. General statement!
I try to avoid hitting discussions since I used to get myself into trouble in a no win situation. I do most of my hitting discussion on another site. Take care!
I hear ya!
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
There is way too much concentration on turning the hips when swinging a bat around here, IMO.......
The reason I use the term "the hips" when talking about rotation is that it's something that most people can readily understand.
The same thing isn't true when it comes to a term like "the center".
quote:I still say, "Put up, or SHUT up!". Show us your trained hitters and we'll start genuflecting when you enter a thread.
Sandman, you entered my thread.....I don't enter yours.....And, there is a reason for that.....
I just went back and checked and, yep, this is my thread.......Started by me...... 
To think I entered my own thread!!!!..
To think I entered my own thread!!!!..
Yes, and I politely corrected your miscue on Manny's hips opening prior to footplant. Then you got defensive. Thanks for the update. 
You've made a lot of good points over the years and I usually enjoy reading you. But if you're going to condescend the way you do, back it up, or you're hard to take serious.
P.S.
This is a public forum, so there are no "MY threads".
You've made a lot of good points over the years and I usually enjoy reading you. But if you're going to condescend the way you do, back it up, or you're hard to take serious.
P.S.
This is a public forum, so there are no "MY threads".
Oh BTW, I guess I won't be proven wrong afterall. 
quote:Originally posted by Sandman:
But I just don't see this debate going anywhere. Maybe I'll be proven wrong.
Sandman, you just don't get it...... 
You say you have grown tired of the gurus?????...You can figure out for yourself what the video shows????......Yet, you don't understand what differing degrees of rotating into footplant implies.......Manny rotates into footplant much less convincingly, and much later than many other MLB hitters.....I don't think you have a clue as to what this suggests....Or, what the implication is....
Some hitters finish high, and some finish low.....Again, I don't believe you have a clue as to why or if it even matters.....
You draw your lines and cicles and such on the pics like a detective as you try to figure out the effects of what they are doing.....You have always concentrated on effects.....And, you have always managed to overlook the causes......You do this without any help from the gurus......Blame them all you want as you continue to struggle with understanding this stuff.....
You say you have grown tired of the gurus?????...You can figure out for yourself what the video shows????......Yet, you don't understand what differing degrees of rotating into footplant implies.......Manny rotates into footplant much less convincingly, and much later than many other MLB hitters.....I don't think you have a clue as to what this suggests....Or, what the implication is....
Some hitters finish high, and some finish low.....Again, I don't believe you have a clue as to why or if it even matters.....
You draw your lines and cicles and such on the pics like a detective as you try to figure out the effects of what they are doing.....You have always concentrated on effects.....And, you have always managed to overlook the causes......You do this without any help from the gurus......Blame them all you want as you continue to struggle with understanding this stuff.....
quote:How can any conclusions be drawn as to when the hips open in relation to other parts of the swing/body when the clips only show the upper half of their bodies???
This statement is very revealing as to the fact that you just don't get it, Sandman......This is why you admittedly struggle with teaching......I gave you two clips which you should study very intently....Instead, you display your lack of understanding while complaining about how you are tired of gurus, whatever that means.....Perhaps you are tired of others understanding what you don't??????
How do you know the muscles that rotate the hips aren't trying to do so but there is no movement because the upper body is acting to hold everything back until the appropriate time?
Which means the hips may start rotating, at least the muscles that do the job, may activate long before you can see it.
The hips get a running start.
Which means the hips may start rotating, at least the muscles that do the job, may activate long before you can see it.
The hips get a running start.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Sandman, you just don't get it......
Yet, you don't understand what differing degrees of rotating into footplant implies.
That's funny. I don't recall offering any input that would lead you to believe that I do/don't undersand this??? I simply provided 2 clips that showed Manny rotating more into foot plant than the one you provided. From there, the discussion could've/should've turned into more about "But Manny does this less... why?". Instead, you got your panties all bunched up and went on the defensive.
I sincerely believe that I am not alone in "struggling to teach this stuff" because I am willing to prove what I teach is working or not... ON VIDEO. IOW, I can teach all I want - and my hitters' results DO improve, and we DO win titles, etc.. But then I look at video of their swings and see the same common youth flaws they've always had.
You may be more comfortable that you have this stuff figured out and can teach w/ better results. Fine. Post some before/after video and I'll believe you're any better than me or the thousands of other "struggling" Dads trying to help kids.
Yes, I draw my lines and circles "like a detective", sometimes offering NO input w/ it, just trying to keep the discussion "honest"/accurate, so that we might all benefit from it. So when you get caught by the "detective", why not just OWN UP and move on?!
Also, the reason I draw is because I believe we need to know where we're heading. Yes, the focus is on "effect" because we can't see HOW they got to those positions. But we CAN see the positions and, IMO, use them as "goals" or "barometers". IOW, at some point, when I compare my hitters to pros, I want them to eventually/someday swing like them (if at all possible). How would I know that they are though? Just because they hit a HR? No, I submit that my line/circle drawing is in the same category as anyone who posts a side-by-side of a kid w/ a pro - comparison.
Now, HOW we go about making that happen is surely the bigger challenge, hence the proliferation of so many wildly-varying internet opinions on HOW to swing. IMO, certain things are tangible/measurable: balance (head centered over middle of feet from side, shoulders over toes from front/pitcher), timing of upper body load (rear elbow up at stride toe touch instead of tucked at side already), etc.. And these are the means by which we can objectively measure our hitters progress - unless of course we just watch the line drives to the back of the cage and subjectively self-proclaim our methods successful?
The only reason I admit that I "struggle" to teach youth hitters is because I put my teachings to the [video] test. How do YOU monitor your hitters' progress??? As to you "giving me 2 clips that I should study intently"... you changed gears! The discussion was about the hips and whether Manny's opened into foot plant. I showed that they did. Then you posted 2 clips in which the hitter's hips aren't even visible?! Yeah, maybe they have relevance and should be discussed. But that was just a smoke-n-mirrors job on your part. If those were the ones that should be studied, why didn't you just post THEM in the first place?
No, BD, I think YOU just don't get it. I posted quotes from you from the past few years, back when you were just as adamantly proclaiming that you knew it all and we were all stupid. Now you're adamantly on another bandwagon. And yes, modifying our way of thinking IS good. But w/ you doing a complete 180 on this "hips open into foot plant" thing, WHY on earth should we listen to you (and believe that we're all dumb) when you offer no PROOF of your teachings???
I'm out of "your" thread now. Let the lurkers judge for themselves. I have a kid to teach and 2 teams, as well. There are plenty of other sites where amicable discussions can usually be had. You can stay here and continue talking down to everyone in "your" thread.
quote:The discussion was about the hips and whether Manny's opened into foot plant.
Sandman, wrong..... More proof that you don't get it...
It was about the overemphasis on the hips and the fact that Manny rotates into footplant much later and with much less emphasis than some other MLB hitters....
You don't like the two clips I posted because you don't understand what is happening in them....There is "cause" in those clips.....You only look for "effects".....
There you go again, drawing conclusions w/o basis and pontificating.
What exactly did I say that suggests that I don't understand those 2 clips?
You're a waste of time.
Get over yourself.
I notice that you simply ignored everything else - esp. the part where I ask how YOU monitor your hitters?
PUT UP, or STFU already!!! These discussions about who thinks they know more about what's going on inside a pro hitter's body are purely a matter of opinion. That's why there are so many interpretations - "arm action is king", "move the middle", etc.. Your opinion is irrelevant if you can't back it up.
SHOW US the hitters you've taught, focusing on your [current, seeing you've "evolved"] particular areas of emphasis. Don't explain it in riddles either. Provide a step-by-step blueprint for how YOU make hitters better. Then SHOW US the results on video.
Otherwise you're just an arrogant internet jerk who thinks he knows it all.
What exactly did I say that suggests that I don't understand those 2 clips?
You're a waste of time.
Get over yourself.
I notice that you simply ignored everything else - esp. the part where I ask how YOU monitor your hitters?
PUT UP, or STFU already!!! These discussions about who thinks they know more about what's going on inside a pro hitter's body are purely a matter of opinion. That's why there are so many interpretations - "arm action is king", "move the middle", etc.. Your opinion is irrelevant if you can't back it up.
SHOW US the hitters you've taught, focusing on your [current, seeing you've "evolved"] particular areas of emphasis. Don't explain it in riddles either. Provide a step-by-step blueprint for how YOU make hitters better. Then SHOW US the results on video.
Otherwise you're just an arrogant internet jerk who thinks he knows it all.
Is anyone else besides BullDog and me reading this thread??? Feel free to chime in.
quote:Originally posted by Sandman:
Otherwise you're just an arrogant internet jerk who thinks he knows it all.
That is why I stay out of these discussions. After a few times, it gets old and repetitive.
Most important thing in teaching any baseball skill...
Results!!!
'
Results!!!
'
You're right, PG... results on the field are what count. And there are a host of varying swing mechanics that manage to get it done.
But when you're training in a cage or practice, if a player is pounding the ball, do you always just leave him alone? Or could it be that the BP pitching is unrealistically easy and that's why he's succeeding in that environment? IOW, is it still valid to periodically check video to see if the player's mechanics are improving so that he can continue to succeed as the pitching gets tougher?
But when you're training in a cage or practice, if a player is pounding the ball, do you always just leave him alone? Or could it be that the BP pitching is unrealistically easy and that's why he's succeeding in that environment? IOW, is it still valid to periodically check video to see if the player's mechanics are improving so that he can continue to succeed as the pitching gets tougher?
quote:Originally posted by Sandman:
But when you're training in a cage or practice, if a player is pounding the ball, do you always just leave him alone? Or could it be that the BP pitching is unrealistically easy and that's why he's succeeding in that environment? IOW, is it still valid to periodically check video to see if the player's mechanics are improving so that he can continue to succeed as the pitching gets tougher?
Great point.
A swing that works at one level may not work at the next level.
It's no simple task to re-build a guy's swing, so I think they should be taught the right way the first time. Also, I have seen 7Us with great rotational swings, so I don't buy the argument that you have to baby step your way into a rotational swing (e.g. squish the bug for a few years in order to get hip rotation down).
Results are generally a product of those baseball skills and hard work of course
quote:Provide a step-by-step blueprint for how YOU make hitters better.
Sandman, why don't you start some threads and show us your understanding of the swing?......Can you do more than post trivial nonsense???.....
Come on Sandman, step up to the plate and start some threads for us to learn from you!!!!...
Why? I don't have some undying need to prove that I'm the smartest internet hitting guru-wanna-be. I start threads when I have questions - usually about how to help my son improve. I also participate in other people's threads when I think I can help or help clarify something (yes, often by "drawing my lines and circles" ). I often do that just to try to add a picture to someone's words (afterall, "a picture is worth a 1,000 words", right? ).
You and I have totally different agendas pal. I'll start a thread when I have something to say/ask; not just to puff my chest.
BTW, I notice you still haven't addressed my challenge to you to post video of your hitters doing what you teach? Oversight? Or convenient maneuver?
). I often do that just to try to add a picture to someone's words (afterall, "a picture is worth a 1,000 words", right? ).You and I have totally different agendas pal. I'll start a thread when I have something to say/ask; not just to puff my chest.
BTW, I notice you still haven't addressed my challenge to you to post video of your hitters doing what you teach? Oversight? Or convenient maneuver?
O.K. Sandman.....So, we can expect more trivial nonsense from you.....And, no suggestions as to how to swing a bat.....I got it..... 
No... you DON'T "got it", evidently.
I don't post "Here's my entire theory on [my current, as of today, but ever-evolving] swing mechanics" because I'm not trying to establish myself as an internet swing guru. Nor do I post rude little jabs/riddles telling people how clueless they are. I post when I have specific questions or think I might be able to offer useful input to someone else's questions.
NOW do you "get it"?
(But please keep dodging my challenge to backup your constant condescending. I'm sure none of the other readers can see through that tactic?!
)
I don't post "Here's my entire theory on [my current, as of today, but ever-evolving] swing mechanics" because I'm not trying to establish myself as an internet swing guru. Nor do I post rude little jabs/riddles telling people how clueless they are. I post when I have specific questions or think I might be able to offer useful input to someone else's questions.
NOW do you "get it"?
(But please keep dodging my challenge to backup your constant condescending. I'm sure none of the other readers can see through that tactic?!
Hey, it's Blue Dog's thread. Leave him alone.
He looks fully capable of talking to himself. (edited - please keep it clean)
He looks fully capable of talking to himself. (edited - please keep it clean)
I certainly don't claim to know it all. NTL, I wrote this article a couple weeks ago, in prep for a team practice, in which we went over this (live/demo), then I gave each player a copy of this to take home.quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Sandman, why don't you start some threads and show us your understanding of the swing?......Can you do more than post trivial nonsense???.....
Come on Sandman, step up to the plate and start some threads for us to learn from you!!!!...
Loading Sequence - Hips Before Shoulders
Perhaps 12YOs are too young to digest this type of material? That's why we explained it to them, showed them video, and demonstrated the movements. Will they get it right away? Probably not. But changing swings isn't an overnight process. Hopefully, some of their parents read the article too and can help them practice at home.
Of course, BullDog will probably just chastise my "lines and circles" again as "useless focus on effects". But I don't really care if he approves.
Maybe the info can help some others who might be reading this thread? But don't worry, if it doesn't help, or you don't agree with it... I won't call you "clueless".
Sandman,
Good article. Is it possible that this thread will get back to discussing hitting?
Bluedog
Ted Williams
Saying the "the hips dont matter" is a "theory" that might require a little more research.
Good article. Is it possible that this thread will get back to discussing hitting?
Bluedog
quote:Much more than upper half in those clips.....And, those clips make my point, which is, the hips don't matter......It ain't about the hips....!!!!!!
Ted Williams
quote:The way you bring your hips into the swing is directly proportionate to the power you generate
Saying the "the hips dont matter" is a "theory" that might require a little more research.
Thanks deemax.
Ted Williams
quote:
The way you bring your hips into the swing is directly proportionate to the power you generate
Actually, you may have just made BD's point. Read the Ted Williams statement again, and what BD is saying.
quote:
The way you bring your hips into the swing is directly proportionate to the power you generate
Actually, you may have just made BD's point. Read the Ted Williams statement again, and what BD is saying.
Wayback, some people will never get it.....
Nice to see you do......
Nice to see you do......
Bluedog
Going back to the McGuire/Vladi clips.....they each show a different way of "using" the hips in their swing.
Are you suggesting that since each (both accomplished MLB hitters) uses a different way, that there is something else going on, or do you think one way could be better than the other?
Going back to the McGuire/Vladi clips.....they each show a different way of "using" the hips in their swing.
Are you suggesting that since each (both accomplished MLB hitters) uses a different way, that there is something else going on, or do you think one way could be better than the other?
I'll keep my strong opinion out of this. But I have a question... Do the hips matter or not? And why do they or why don't they?
A clue regarding my opinion on this and just about everything else... I believe most everything matters!
A clue regarding my opinion on this and just about everything else... I believe most everything matters!
PGStaff, let us hear your opinion on the hips......
quote:Going back to the McGuire/Vladi clips.....they each show a different way of "using" the hips in their swing.
Can you explain what is so different??
The reason I ask is, I don't see any difference in the way they are using their hips....
quote:Originally posted by Bludog:
Compare these......Hips open in different time frames...
Maybe I didn't word it right, but I was thinking more about why they opened in different time frames.
So if we take the focus off the hips in these clips, are you now referring to the upper body load/unload patterns?
My grandpa once told me… The quicker you can turn the belly button the harder you hit the ball.
Using anyone’s explanation of hitting, over the years, I have yet to hear anyone claim this advice is outdated.
The hips and the rest of the swing work closely together. It’s not open up your hips wait a second and then start your swing. It’s not keep the hips closed and swing. The body works together to create the most possible leverage, most bat speed and accuracy. Opening the hips too early or too slowly destroys all of that.
Watching whatever anyone would claim is a great swing… It is very easy to see the timing and quickness involving the hips becoming an advantage to the things mentioned above.
The only thing that would ever change my mind would be to hear a great hitter tell me the hips are not very important. I’d probably need several great hitters to claim that before changing my opinion.
Quick hips actually allow a hitter to wait longer. Slow hips must start too soon. I have found that quick hips and quick hands seem to go together. (Throwing or hitting) I can’t remember ever seeing a player with slow hips and fast hands. I know from past posts that you don’t believe in the strength or speed of the hands being important either. No matter what terminology is used, be it hands or hips or body… Strength, quickness, timing and accuracy will always be important attributes in baseball and in hitting. It’s the actual natural skill part of hitting.
Perhaps I’ve misunderstood what this topic is about, but that is my opinion.
Using anyone’s explanation of hitting, over the years, I have yet to hear anyone claim this advice is outdated.
The hips and the rest of the swing work closely together. It’s not open up your hips wait a second and then start your swing. It’s not keep the hips closed and swing. The body works together to create the most possible leverage, most bat speed and accuracy. Opening the hips too early or too slowly destroys all of that.
Watching whatever anyone would claim is a great swing… It is very easy to see the timing and quickness involving the hips becoming an advantage to the things mentioned above.
The only thing that would ever change my mind would be to hear a great hitter tell me the hips are not very important. I’d probably need several great hitters to claim that before changing my opinion.
Quick hips actually allow a hitter to wait longer. Slow hips must start too soon. I have found that quick hips and quick hands seem to go together. (Throwing or hitting) I can’t remember ever seeing a player with slow hips and fast hands. I know from past posts that you don’t believe in the strength or speed of the hands being important either. No matter what terminology is used, be it hands or hips or body… Strength, quickness, timing and accuracy will always be important attributes in baseball and in hitting. It’s the actual natural skill part of hitting.
Perhaps I’ve misunderstood what this topic is about, but that is my opinion.
quote:So if we take the focus off the hips in these clips, are you now referring to the upper body load/unload patterns?
Wording is important in talking about this....
I am talking about the center.....
Tom Guerry, Swingbuster and Swingbuilder have said many times that the lower body is slave to the upper body....There is alot of truth to this, IMO.....
quote:Perhaps I’ve misunderstood what this topic is about, but that is my opinion.
PGStaff, you did not misunderstand.....Thanks for the reply.....I did want to hear it.....
quote:My grandpa once told me… The quicker you can turn the belly button the harder you hit the ball.
Staff, IMO, your grandpa was right.....
Do notice, he said the belly button and not the hips....
