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Midlo Dad posted:

CACO3GIRL,

"Unacceptable" is probably too strong a word.  "Inappropriate" or "presumptuous" might fit better.

I don't think a parent should encourage or expect the player to renege on his commitment, much less pressure him to do so.  I don't think the parent should fight a turf battle with the coach, putting the player in the middle.  I think a player should know that he is not to walk into the coach's office and say how things will be; at most, he may go there to present a request for advance permission.  And I would suggest that the coach should respond by appreciating the position the parents have put the player into, and suggesting that the player find a third path.

I would add that a Legion team, like a travel/exposure team, has a very short season.  Any questions about the team's coaches' attitudes about missing practices or games should be inquired about prior to making the commitment to the roster.  Committing first, getting into the season, and then telling the coach you've decided not to be there one day is not appropriate.  Your options are to discuss arrangements in advance, or to accept that if the team won't accommodate you, your choices might be reduced down to either playing for that team and living with the restrictions or finding another team that will accommodate your priorities.

There are, after all, literally dozens of team options out there, and they all have different policies.  Find one that suits you; don't ask the one you choose to change mid-season to suit you.  If every parent did that, the team could not function.

I am pretty sure that if every player missed one practice per season the team would function swimmingly. 

Midlo Dad posted:

CACO3GIRL,

"Unacceptable" is probably too strong a word.  "Inappropriate" or "presumptuous" might fit better.

I don't think a parent should encourage or expect the player to renege on his commitment, much less pressure him to do so.  I don't think the parent should fight a turf battle with the coach, putting the player in the middle.  I think a player should know that he is not to walk into the coach's office and say how things will be; at most, he may go there to present a request for advance permission.  And I would suggest that the coach should respond by appreciating the position the parents have put the player into, and suggesting that the player find a third path.

I would add that a Legion team, like a travel/exposure team, has a very short season.  Any questions about the team's coaches' attitudes about missing practices or games should be inquired about prior to making the commitment to the roster.  Committing first, getting into the season, and then telling the coach you've decided not to be there one day is not appropriate.  Your options are to discuss arrangements in advance, or to accept that if the team won't accommodate you, your choices might be reduced down to either playing for that team and living with the restrictions or finding another team that will accommodate your priorities.

There are, after all, literally dozens of team options out there, and they all have different policies.  Find one that suits you; don't ask the one you choose to change mid-season to suit you.  If every parent did that, the team could not function.

In just the scenario I have described, what would your penalty be to that player if he went?  Could it result in a shift in how dedicated you think that player is to your program? Would it affect your recruitment efforts for that player?

2020dad posted:
Midlo Dad posted:

CACO3GIRL,

"Unacceptable" is probably too strong a word.  "Inappropriate" or "presumptuous" might fit better.

I don't think a parent should encourage or expect the player to renege on his commitment, much less pressure him to do so.  I don't think the parent should fight a turf battle with the coach, putting the player in the middle.  I think a player should know that he is not to walk into the coach's office and say how things will be; at most, he may go there to present a request for advance permission.  And I would suggest that the coach should respond by appreciating the position the parents have put the player into, and suggesting that the player find a third path.

I would add that a Legion team, like a travel/exposure team, has a very short season.  Any questions about the team's coaches' attitudes about missing practices or games should be inquired about prior to making the commitment to the roster.  Committing first, getting into the season, and then telling the coach you've decided not to be there one day is not appropriate.  Your options are to discuss arrangements in advance, or to accept that if the team won't accommodate you, your choices might be reduced down to either playing for that team and living with the restrictions or finding another team that will accommodate your priorities.

There are, after all, literally dozens of team options out there, and they all have different policies.  Find one that suits you; don't ask the one you choose to change mid-season to suit you.  If every parent did that, the team could not function.

I am pretty sure that if every player missed one practice per season the team would function swimmingly. 

That is my point, or maybe some of you missed that. He said mid season he lost his start, and the only thing he did was miss a practice that he told them about in advance.

Coaches dont take away starts if a player is performing as well as he said he was, there is more to this.

I dont really care for any post where the OP is putting blame on anyone for anything, 17 year olds, moms, dads, etc.

JMO

 

TPM posted:
2020dad posted:
Midlo Dad posted:

CACO3GIRL,

"Unacceptable" is probably too strong a word.  "Inappropriate" or "presumptuous" might fit better.

I don't think a parent should encourage or expect the player to renege on his commitment, much less pressure him to do so.  I don't think the parent should fight a turf battle with the coach, putting the player in the middle.  I think a player should know that he is not to walk into the coach's office and say how things will be; at most, he may go there to present a request for advance permission.  And I would suggest that the coach should respond by appreciating the position the parents have put the player into, and suggesting that the player find a third path.

I would add that a Legion team, like a travel/exposure team, has a very short season.  Any questions about the team's coaches' attitudes about missing practices or games should be inquired about prior to making the commitment to the roster.  Committing first, getting into the season, and then telling the coach you've decided not to be there one day is not appropriate.  Your options are to discuss arrangements in advance, or to accept that if the team won't accommodate you, your choices might be reduced down to either playing for that team and living with the restrictions or finding another team that will accommodate your priorities.

There are, after all, literally dozens of team options out there, and they all have different policies.  Find one that suits you; don't ask the one you choose to change mid-season to suit you.  If every parent did that, the team could not function.

I am pretty sure that if every player missed one practice per season the team would function swimmingly. 

That is my point, or maybe some of you missed that. He said mid season he lost his start, and the only thing he did was miss a practice that he told them about in advance.

Coaches dont take away starts if a player is performing as well as he said he was, there is more to this.

I dont really care for any post where the OP is putting blame on anyone for anything, 17 year olds, moms, dads, etc.

JMO

 

I think it's worth mentioning that while we on this board take baseball very seriously there are parents out there that think it is a recreational sport played for fun.  I can imagine there are very talented and dedicated players out there that have parents that would say "This is our family vacation and you aren't staying here to go to a practice, you are part of this family. You are leaving for college soon and this may be the last time we can go as a family."

I don't know how a child would get out of that one, and I am using the word child because while they will soon be out of their parents house they are not there yet. What kind of example does it set for younger siblings for the kid to make a stand and tell his parents no?  What pressure that puts on a young person, upset his coach or upset his family.

We always say baseball ends for everyone...maybe we should include "but family is forever"?

Taking all of this in as a whole, I think it would be helpful to view it from a coach's perspective. As a coach, you are often faced with some difficult choices with respect to playing time, starting pitcher decisions, etc. Often, it is extremely difficult to make some of these decisions. If it is borderline & you have player A who is "all in," so to speak & you have player B who is off to the beach on occasion,  & these 2 players are similar in ability, then you can easily see what the result would be. The result would be exactly what we have here in this case.  Nobody is really "at fault," but player B has helped make the coach's decision by freely choosing to not attend a practice. 

Twoboys posted:

and hold on just a second here...isn't LHP2017 going to be graduating HS and then (maybe) playing in college?  This thread is about summer 2017?  

My 2017 has played for several years for an often discussed on this site national showcase/travel organization but he isn't sure where he will be playing NEXT summer as he is waiting to finalize his college plans and then have a game plan as to what the college coaches would like him to do.

 

I did bring this up earlier.  Why not finalize your college plans before you decide where the best summer fit would be.

Steve A. posted:

Taking all of this in as a whole, I think it would be helpful to view it from a coach's perspective. As a coach, you are often faced with some difficult choices with respect to playing time, starting pitcher decisions, etc. Often, it is extremely difficult to make some of these decisions. If it is borderline & you have player A who is "all in," so to speak & you have player B who is off to the beach on occasion,  & these 2 players are similar in ability, then you can easily see what the result would be. The result would be exactly what we have here in this case.  Nobody is really "at fault," but player B has helped make the coach's decision by freely choosing to not attend a practice. 

A 16 year old doesn't get to make many decisions "freely".  Sure, he can choose to wear his blue shirt or his red shirt and which movie he wants to see with his girlfriend but he does not get to decide if he goes on the family vacation or not.

Midlo Dad brought up a great point of how things use to be, well sadly, times have changed. Now, we have new legal terms like "Parental liability", which  is the term used to refer to a parent's obligation to pay for damage caused by negligent, intentional, or criminal acts committed by the parent's child.

And my personal favorite...parents suing other parents because they think their child should have been watched better, or been controlled more, like this pregnant girls parents suing the boys parents because they apparently KNEW the kids were having sex and did nothing to stop it. http://articles.orlandosentine...boy-gets-girl-detmer

I recall being able to walk home from school in 3rd grade, open up my house door, lock it, and keep myself occupied until my parents got home.  I was taught not to open the door for ANYONE, even if I knew them.  If I did that with my daughter next year I would be reported to the state. The laws right now encourage parents to keep a tight reign on their children...OR ELSE.

TPM posted:

I still dont buy in here. You missed a practice and you pitched well in playoffs but your defense let you down so you lost opportunities just sounds like a bunch of excuses.

I think its a great idea you are making a change, he probably is glad too.

JMO

 

I'm guessing the coach's version greatly differs from the player's.

CaCO3Girl posted:
Steve A. posted:

Taking all of this in as a whole, I think it would be helpful to view it from a coach's perspective. As a coach, you are often faced with some difficult choices with respect to playing time, starting pitcher decisions, etc. Often, it is extremely difficult to make some of these decisions. If it is borderline & you have player A who is "all in," so to speak & you have player B who is off to the beach on occasion,  & these 2 players are similar in ability, then you can easily see what the result would be. The result would be exactly what we have here in this case.  Nobody is really "at fault," but player B has helped make the coach's decision by freely choosing to not attend a practice. 

A 16 year old doesn't get to make many decisions "freely".  Sure, he can choose to wear his blue shirt or his red shirt and which movie he wants to see with his girlfriend but he does not get to decide if he goes on the family vacation or not.

Midlo Dad brought up a great point of how things use to be, well sadly, times have changed. Now, we have new legal terms like "Parental liability", which  is the term used to refer to a parent's obligation to pay for damage caused by negligent, intentional, or criminal acts committed by the parent's child.

And my personal favorite...parents suing other parents because they think their child should have been watched better, or been controlled more, like this pregnant girls parents suing the boys parents because they apparently KNEW the kids were having sex and did nothing to stop it. http://articles.orlandosentine...boy-gets-girl-detmer

I recall being able to walk home from school in 3rd grade, open up my house door, lock it, and keep myself occupied until my parents got home.  I was taught not to open the door for ANYONE, even if I knew them.  If I did that with my daughter next year I would be reported to the state. The laws right now encourage parents to keep a tight reign on their children...OR ELSE.

You are missing the point, but I think RJM got it.

As travel ball has become more relevant there are now two kinds of Legion ball. There's country club Legion ball ball and there's serious Legion ball. 

If missing a practice is an issue I'm guessing this Legion team is the latter. What is serious Legion ball? It's high school level baseball. What would happen if a high school baseball player told his coach he was going to miss time for spring vacation with his parents? At our high school a player asked. The coach told him he could go. Just be sure to turn in your uniform before you leave town.

RJM posted:

As travel ball has become more relevant there are now two kinds of Legion ball. There's country club Legion ball ball and there's serious Legion ball. 

If missing a practice is an issue I'm guessing this Legion team is the latter. What is serious Legion ball? It's high school level baseball. What would happen if a high school baseball player told his coach he was going to miss time for spring vacation with his parents? At our high school a player asked. The coach told him he could go. Just be sure to turn in your uniform before you leave town.

Coaches should be respected on and off the field, but they should not abuse the power they have over these kids.  if they want to give penalties like bear crawls after practice, or water boy for the next home game, maybe raking the field by themselves... that's all fine, but what you wrote here is just an abuse of power, that's not coaching.

All I can say to those just beginning HS....things really havent changed, its tougher now than ever, because there are so many players and less spots on a roster.

Coaches have rules in place for a reason, if they let one take off, then they have to let everyone, whether it be a practice, a game, etc.  FWIW, sons HS coach had a rule, for every game you miss you sit double. One mom was so upset as they had to go up north for a wedding. She felt that was a valid ok, no sitting out, was she shocked her son had to sit out a few games.

But again, I am not sure if this applies in this situation.

 

Last edited by TPM

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I'll try to answer the questions above:

I do think most teams could function with an occasional absence.  I also think most coaches will, if approached in the proper manner, consent to many advance requests.  But if a player simply misses and then gives his reason after the fact, or if the player speaks up in advance but presents the matter as simply giving notice that a decision has already been made and the coach, having not been asked, is merely being told how things are going to go, I think you could well see the coach act so as to make a point -- even if the circumstances were such that he might well have given consent had he been approached correctly.  The coach has to be clear about who's in charge and who's calling the shots, and to that end, he may have to administer an object lesson so as to avoid having his authority undermined.  It is also true that sometimes an absence will really cause a problem, so it should be understood that even properly presented requests will sometimes be denied.

The excuse that "family comes first" or "family lasts forever" does not justify making a commitment to a group activity, then reneging and expecting the person in charge to deal with the consequences of your whims whenever they strike you.  That is really just being a prima donna and then hiding behind high sounding language. 

Look, if you truly want your family's activities to come ahead of baseball, you absolutely have the right to make that call.   All you have to do is say so up front.  But you should also understand that if your priorities don't line up with those of the people running the show, you might lose out on a roster spot, to someone who was ready to be there 100% of the time.  The problem here is that people seem to want it both ways:  They want all the benefits they see from being on this particular team, but they don't want to accept the full commitment that this particular team entails. 

Or perhaps they just don't understand that standard rules of conduct, good manners, and the respective roles of player (subordinate) and coach (superior) are all in play here.  So they make vacation plans during season, they join the team without saying a word, and then they expect the coach to organize his plans around their absence on short notice.  There's a lot of "me" in there, don't you agree?  Think of it this way:  If you went into your boss's office at work and said, "I'm going to be out Thursday," how would your boss respond?  Might it go differently than if you had gone to the boss and asked, "May I have Thursday off?"  If you understand the difference, then at what age would you contend a person should learn the distinction?  Personally, I should hope this lesson gets learned BEFORE a person's got a job at risk.  Meaning, it is wholly appropriate for a coach to administer this lesson to a teenager, as opposed to indulging the player because "he's just a kid."

It's definitely true that not everyone has baseball as their top priority, but the OP specified that he is intent on pursuing collegiate baseball.  The translation of that is that baseball is supposed to be HIS top priority outside of school.  Someone seeking to get recruited doesn't put a beach week ahead of baseball, not if he's serious about it.  Every game is an opportunity to be seen, and every practice is an opportunity to prepare to be your best at the next game.  You can't give away those opportunities lightly.

As to what a player could expect from a coach if he failed to make the advance request and merely told the coach he was not coming (without any thought that the final decision was actually the coach's to make), then I think the player should expect some reaction.  The typical response is not suiting up for a game or some such. 

But the other question then becomes how the player responds.  Does he learn the proper lesson, apologize, and conduct himself properly going forward?  Or does he resent not having his way, or resent the consequences he faced, and then badmouth the coach behind the coach's back?  If he learns his lesson, we should hope that the coach becomes someone who would speak well of the player in the future.  But if the coach learns that he's being badmouthed behind his back, small wonder that the player and he don't see eye to eye, and in that situation, the player has squandered the chance to cultivate a key reference and thereby damaged his chances in the recruiting process.  Because I would surely expect a college coach to ask the Legion coach for his take on the player before committing to him.

 

CAGirl,

In my son's FR or Soph year, there was a starting SR outfielder/part-time pitcher.  Ended up graduating with Honors. He had planned to go on a School-sponsored trip during Spring Break (maybe to a foreign country).  FYI, we have 1-2 district games during Spring Break. Coach knew about it a year in advance.  Player went. He did tire flips for 2-3 weeks when he returned during practice and didn't play much rest of year because of him attending the school-sponsored trip.

I felt like the coach was wrong then. Still feel like the coach is wrong. I understand the whole if one gets to do it then they all get to but every situation is different.  The punishment, IMO, didn't fit the supposed crime.   Not sure why there should be games during a school's Spring Break but that is a whole different discussion.

PS; same young man went to TAMU, was in the Corps, graduated on time and his intra-mural (? not correct term, I think) team won the National Baseball Championship.   Very fine young man as is his whole family.

Last edited by RedFishFool

I worry that sometimes we read too much into questions and give advice other than what posters request.

In this case, he did not ask us to fix or diagnose or assign proportional blame for the deteriorated relationship with the coach.

His comment about the friction between them suggests there was more to it than the one absence. But that's not the problem he asked us to solve.

All he asked for was advice on the fifty ways to leave your mentor. And the members do seem to agree on how to handle that: keep it simple, stay classy, tell the truth, don't point fingers or compare the old team to any new teams. 

Swampboy posted:

I worry that sometimes we read too much into questions and give advice other than what posters request.

In this case, he did not ask us to fix or diagnose or assign proportional blame for the deteriorated relationship with the coach.

His comment about the friction between them suggests there was more to it than the one absence. But that's not the problem he asked us to solve.

All he asked for was advice on the fifty ways to leave your mentor. And the members do seem to agree on how to handle that: keep it simple, stay classy, tell the truth, don't point fingers or compare the old team to any new teams. 

I agree with you, but it doesnt work that way here.

Maybe this is a good example of giving TMI, a good lesson for all involved.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I have been a HS coach and the parent of HS players. I had rules for several reasons. When it came to missing, there was no difference in games and practices. In my mind they were both equally important. A program is bigger than me and it's bigger than you. Once you start allowing kids to miss for one reason you can't stop other kids to miss for other reasons. Before you know it you can't preschedule your practices because you don't know who is going to show up. Players that rarely play who never miss don't understand why kids that do miss always play. The player that is allowed to leave early on Wednesday's for Church has now opened the door for the Scout member to attend a function on Tuesday night. The players that are allowed to miss to go on a ski trip over Easter break are followed up with a request by other members to miss for their reason. Parents don't understand why Johnny can miss for his event but you didn't allow their son to miss. They don't understand why a kid who missed a practice is playing in front of their son who is never out of practice. Parents believe their son is not playing because he is being punished for not coming. ON and ON it goes.

Then there is the whole concept of commitment. Someone got cut. Someone didn't get opportunity you got. When you signed on to this you said this team was your priority. You made a commitment to this team to this program to this quest. That means you will have to make sacrifices in order to fulfill your commitment. Just like I will have to make sacrifices and your team mates will have to make sacrifices. I will have to miss my kids events. You will have to decide if it's worth missing the other things you like to do. The time to make that decision is before some kid is cut. The time to make that decision is before you accept that jersey.

Once you start bending the rules there are no rules. Once you start making exceptions there are no rules. One kids trip is no more important than opening day of Turkey season for another. At least in those kids minds. Where do you draw the line? "This is really important to Jimmy so I am going to let him miss." "I Don't think this is as important to you Tommy as that was to Jimmy so I am not going to allow you to miss." I don't know what is so hard to understand really. If you decide to be a part of this team and you make this team you are required to be at every practice and game for the entirety of the season. Right then and there is the time to make that call. Some kid who would have honored that commitment didn't get the opportunity because you said you would.

There is nothing more frustrating and demoralizing to a team than to show up for practice and guys are not there. "Coach where's Tommy?" Unchecked it starts a crack in the foundation. It's just practice coach! Practice is the most important part of a teams foundation. It's what allows you to perform at the level needed to win. And if it's not important to the coach good luck instilling the value of practice to your players.

As far as this situation. I have never gone wrong in my life when I simply was honest with a situation. It might not have been pleasant at the time. I might have had a nervous stomach at the time. But when it was all said and done I knew I did the right thing. Do the right thing. Tell the coach your not going to play for him. Tell him you feel you have an opportunity that you feel is right for you. Thank him for his time coaching you. And wish him well. And simply move on.

 

CaCO3Girl posted:
RJM posted:

As travel ball has become more relevant there are now two kinds of Legion ball. There's country club Legion ball ball and there's serious Legion ball. 

If missing a practice is an issue I'm guessing this Legion team is the latter. What is serious Legion ball? It's high school level baseball. What would happen if a high school baseball player told his coach he was going to miss time for spring vacation with his parents? At our high school a player asked. The coach told him he could go. Just be sure to turn in your uniform before you leave town.

Coaches should be respected on and off the field, but they should not abuse the power they have over these kids.  if they want to give penalties like bear crawls after practice, or water boy for the next home game, maybe raking the field by themselves... that's all fine, but what you wrote here is just an abuse of power, that's not coaching.

The coach is committed to being there. Why shouldn't the players? What would you think of a coach who told the players, "Be prepared to win Monday after vacation. I'll see you then. I'm headed to Cancun for a week of sun and fun?"

What ever happened to commitment and sacrifice? No one is forcing anyone to play for a team. With choices come responsibilities.

TPM posted:
Swampboy posted:

I worry that sometimes we read too much into questions and give advice other than what posters request.

In this case, he did not ask us to fix or diagnose or assign proportional blame for the deteriorated relationship with the coach.

His comment about the friction between them suggests there was more to it than the one absence. But that's not the problem he asked us to solve.

All he asked for was advice on the fifty ways to leave your mentor. And the members do seem to agree on how to handle that: keep it simple, stay classy, tell the truth, don't point fingers or compare the old team to any new teams. 

I agree with you, but it doesnt work that way here.

Maybe this is a good example of giving TMI, a good lesson for all involved.

Especially in the off season when we're willing to expand any subject as far as it will go.

RJM posted:
TPM posted:
Swampboy posted:

I worry that sometimes we read too much into questions and give advice other than what posters request.

In this case, he did not ask us to fix or diagnose or assign proportional blame for the deteriorated relationship with the coach.

His comment about the friction between them suggests there was more to it than the one absence. But that's not the problem he asked us to solve.

All he asked for was advice on the fifty ways to leave your mentor. And the members do seem to agree on how to handle that: keep it simple, stay classy, tell the truth, don't point fingers or compare the old team to any new teams. 

I agree with you, but it doesnt work that way here.

Maybe this is a good example of giving TMI, a good lesson for all involved.

Especially in the off season when we're willing to expand any subject as far as it will go.

Nah, would we do that???? 

My son's high school coach was definitely old school. Our school district had tougher rules than the state association. The coach had tougher rules than the school district. 

The state had eligibility rules relating to the last quarter. Our school district had eligibility rules relating to last week. If a player failed a test or failed to pass in homework. He was warned on Friday he had until Monday at 4pm to remedy the situation or be ineligible until the problem is resolved. The coach's rule was you're ineligible all week. No one ever missed a game or practice.

Was this a gnarled, old, crotchety coach? No. He was in his mid thirties then. He was a rising star assistant coach from a top program in the state when he was hired as head coach. He learned from a coach who expected two things from his players; success on the field and success after high school. This team was so self disciplined they could run their own practices without screwing off.

Hopefully people understand the connection between team rules, the demands of a coach and self discipline and success after high school.

When I played youth ball (LL, BR) it was always in multiple age groups. High school and Legion is 18u ball regardless of your age. College is 22u regardless of your age. My attitude was if I can't be as talented as you I will out work you to compete. With this kind of work ethic the game got easy as I hit the top end of the age group when I worked hard and had the talent. In college it allowed me to be competent enough to be a starter.

More importantly this attitude carried over into the professional aspect of my life. Playing sports as a kid is about a lot more than just playing the sport. 

A friend of mine summed it up perfectly. How do you beat a guy in street, touch football who is willing to dive in the street to make a catch if you're not willing to do the same? I'm not suggesting anyone tell their kid to go dive in the street. I hope I don't have to explain.

CaCO3Girl posted:
Steve A. posted:

Taking all of this in as a whole, I think it would be helpful to view it from a coach's perspective. As a coach, you are often faced with some difficult choices with respect to playing time, starting pitcher decisions, etc. Often, it is extremely difficult to make some of these decisions. If it is borderline & you have player A who is "all in," so to speak & you have player B who is off to the beach on occasion,  & these 2 players are similar in ability, then you can easily see what the result would be. The result would be exactly what we have here in this case.  Nobody is really "at fault," but player B has helped make the coach's decision by freely choosing to not attend a practice. 

A 16 year old doesn't get to make many decisions "freely".  Sure, he can choose to wear his blue shirt or his red shirt and which movie he wants to see with his girlfriend but he does not get to decide if he goes on the family vacation or not.

Midlo Dad brought up a great point of how things use to be, well sadly, times have changed. Now, we have new legal terms like "Parental liability", which  is the term used to refer to a parent's obligation to pay for damage caused by negligent, intentional, or criminal acts committed by the parent's child.

And my personal favorite...parents suing other parents because they think their child should have been watched better, or been controlled more, like this pregnant girls parents suing the boys parents because they apparently KNEW the kids were having sex and did nothing to stop it. http://articles.orlandosentine...boy-gets-girl-detmer

I recall being able to walk home from school in 3rd grade, open up my house door, lock it, and keep myself occupied until my parents got home.  I was taught not to open the door for ANYONE, even if I knew them.  If I did that with my daughter next year I would be reported to the state. The laws right now encourage parents to keep a tight reign on their children...OR ELSE.

I thought we were supposed to let our 16 year olds make every decision, including when to strike a potential college off the list if he feels uncomfortable with a question on the information card - no questions asked.  Oh, wait, I think that was a completely different thread but it sort of struck a nerve with me.  Now I'm really confused.

Besides, my 17 yo normally gets his shirt selection reviewed by his mother.  But then again, so do my shirt selections.  

As for letting your 17-18 year olds stay home by themselves before they leave for college....you would be doing yourselves and theirs a favor by letting them.  GIve them a little money to eat at Chickfila, have them text you when they are in for the night.   Allow them to have ONE person over to play video games (and hopefully not the GF).   The summer before senior year is a good starting point.   

I think I have now covered all the topics addressed in this thread.

keewart posted:

THIS is what gripes me about some coaches (that I think some failed to read from the OP)

".....this practice was called the night before and I had already told them I'd be gone."

If a practice was on a schedule, fine.  But don't expect everyone to be there for a practice called THE NIGHT BEFORE!

Keewart,

That tidbit of info came later.  But this only adds to the point I was trying to make.

I don'the think a coach benches a player because he missed a practice that was called the night before.

BTW was the player told that was the reason, or was this his perception?

He made his decision and that was great, but it just appeared that a main reason was that the coach was a jerk. 

I like to help people but it's hard sometimes, this post is one of the reasons why.

TPM posted:
keewart posted:

THIS is what gripes me about some coaches (that I think some failed to read from the OP)

".....this practice was called the night before and I had already told them I'd be gone."

If a practice was on a schedule, fine.  But don't expect everyone to be there for a practice called THE NIGHT BEFORE!

Keewart,

That tidbit of info came later.  But this only adds to the point I was trying to make.

I don'the think a coach benches a player because he missed a practice that was called the night before.

BTW was the player told that was the reason, or was this his perception?

He made his decision and that was great, but it just appeared that a main reason was that the coach was a jerk. 

I like to help people but it's hard sometimes, this post is one of the reasons why.

I did not say that my coach was a jerk anywhere in the OP, I just said we did not mesh well on the field. I still train with him daily in the offseason just like I have the past two years. I was told this was the reason yes, otherwise I wouldn't have even mentioned it. And as for your "help" on this thread, virtually none of what you have said has helped me, if anything it was more of an attack because you had nothing better to do. You came in after I gave the update that my conflict was resolved, appreciate your opinion though!

2017LHPscrewball posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:
Steve A. posted:

Taking all of this in as a whole, I think it would be helpful to view it from a coach's perspective. As a coach, you are often faced with some difficult choices with respect to playing time, starting pitcher decisions, etc. Often, it is extremely difficult to make some of these decisions. If it is borderline & you have player A who is "all in," so to speak & you have player B who is off to the beach on occasion,  & these 2 players are similar in ability, then you can easily see what the result would be. The result would be exactly what we have here in this case.  Nobody is really "at fault," but player B has helped make the coach's decision by freely choosing to not attend a practice. 

A 16 year old doesn't get to make many decisions "freely".  Sure, he can choose to wear his blue shirt or his red shirt and which movie he wants to see with his girlfriend but he does not get to decide if he goes on the family vacation or not.

Midlo Dad brought up a great point of how things use to be, well sadly, times have changed. Now, we have new legal terms like "Parental liability", which  is the term used to refer to a parent's obligation to pay for damage caused by negligent, intentional, or criminal acts committed by the parent's child.

And my personal favorite...parents suing other parents because they think their child should have been watched better, or been controlled more, like this pregnant girls parents suing the boys parents because they apparently KNEW the kids were having sex and did nothing to stop it. http://articles.orlandosentine...boy-gets-girl-detmer

I recall being able to walk home from school in 3rd grade, open up my house door, lock it, and keep myself occupied until my parents got home.  I was taught not to open the door for ANYONE, even if I knew them.  If I did that with my daughter next year I would be reported to the state. The laws right now encourage parents to keep a tight reign on their children...OR ELSE.

I thought we were supposed to let our 16 year olds make every decision, including when to strike a potential college off the list if he feels uncomfortable with a question on the information card - no questions asked.  Oh, wait, I think that was a completely different thread but it sort of struck a nerve with me.  Now I'm really confused.

Besides, my 17 yo normally gets his shirt selection reviewed by his mother.  But then again, so do my shirt selections.  

The fundamental differences in this thread (and the other one) is the difference in a 16 year old making a decision about now vs. making a decision about after he will be 18. Right now the old saying "If you live under my roof your will live by my rules" is coming to mind.

I would wager that 99+% parents on this board wouldn't schedule so much as a doctors appointment during baseball season...but we are the anomalies not the average parent.  I will take away from this conversation though that it is important for a player to present the problem as a request rather than a statement to his coach, thanks Midlo Dad!

CaCO3Girl posted:
Steve A. posted:

Taking all of this in as a whole, I think it would be helpful to view it from a coach's perspective. As a coach, you are often faced with some difficult choices with respect to playing time, starting pitcher decisions, etc. Often, it is extremely difficult to make some of these decisions. If it is borderline & you have player A who is "all in," so to speak & you have player B who is off to the beach on occasion,  & these 2 players are similar in ability, then you can easily see what the result would be. The result would be exactly what we have here in this case.  Nobody is really "at fault," but player B has helped make the coach's decision by freely choosing to not attend a practice. 

A 16 year old doesn't get to make many decisions "freely".  Sure, he can choose to wear his blue shirt or his red shirt and which movie he wants to see with his girlfriend but he does not get to decide if he goes on the family vacation or not.

Midlo Dad brought up a great point of how things use to be, well sadly, times have changed. Now, we have new legal terms like "Parental liability", which  is the term used to refer to a parent's obligation to pay for damage caused by negligent, intentional, or criminal acts committed by the parent's child.

And my personal favorite...parents suing other parents because they think their child should have been watched better, or been controlled more, like this pregnant girls parents suing the boys parents because they apparently KNEW the kids were having sex and did nothing to stop it. http://articles.orlandosentine...boy-gets-girl-detmer

I recall being able to walk home from school in 3rd grade, open up my house door, lock it, and keep myself occupied until my parents got home.  I was taught not to open the door for ANYONE, even if I knew them.  If I did that with my daughter next year I would be reported to the state. The laws right now encourage parents to keep a tight reign on their children...OR ELSE.

OK, just insert (Player B's Parents helped make the coach's decision).....a little Parental Lliability there so to speak. No difference really. Player B faces the consequences either way.

 

Also, I might add that "Parental Liability" is certainly nothing new.  The difference today is that lawsuits force the "liability" where as in the past it was the family.

The fundamental differences in this thread (and the other one) is the difference in a 16 year old making a decision about now vs. making a decision about after he will be 18. Right now the old saying "If you live under my roof your will live by my rules" is coming to mind.

I said I was really confused earlier, but now I guess you could say I am mystified.  Isn't it the same 16 yo kid making a decision - today - that could impact his future life, whether next week or next year?  It sounds like a 16 yo should have the right to make decisions that might affect his adult life (I guess you could characterize these decisions as "big decisions"). but not allowed to participate in the smaller decisions that affect him short term (maybe ruin his summer).  I want my kid to make all the decisions he can on the small stuff and see how his decisions pan out.  When he runs across an important decision as a teenager, then I'll try my best to ensure he doesn't make a bad decision or a stupid decision (may be same decision but thought process is different between the two).

I'm hoping that maybe by 21 yo, I can back away completely, but I'll certainly try to provide "guidance" or "counseling" until then.  I suppose at some point he can choose not to listen, or possibly even clue us in on a decision, but I still think lots of boys don't really fully "grow up" until their 20's.  I would want nothing better than to discuss his decisions and begin to appreciate his maturation.  I love Keewart's idea of letting the kid stay home one weekend.  I guess this could be viewed as a test.  Put in a few safety measures to ensure he doesn't go bonkers and let him test his decision making skills.  I know some kids who would probably hate their parents leaving them as they would end up toeing the line too close.  Others I would never imagine leaving home alone.  Most probably fall in the middle somewhere.  Love the old saying about letting them fail - hopefully fail on the small stuff and end up getting it right on the big stuff.

Last edited by 2017LHPscrewball
BigJay posted:

I'm a new guy on this site, but my God, this question was asked and answered early on page 1. Is this a site about baseball, or child rearing, legal liability, and who can predict a player's future without ever seeing him play? What a lot of nonsense.

Yes, its about all of those things!!!

Welcome to the HSBBW!

Welcome to the site BigJay.

I have seen people's opinion on this site change on topics over the years. Usually it coincides with where their kid is in this whole process. Pre HS days. HS days. College days. Pro days. Post baseball days. People tend to see things much differently depending on their experiences and the experiences of their kids. Along with those experiences are life experiences. Not just baseball related experiences.

Take TPM for instance. I knew her when her son was just a new guy coming into Clemson. A professional player. I met her in Jupiter and we watched my son play. I knew her when her son started his Coaching career. Our conversations over the years have been about many topics. In fact many times not about baseball but about life. Over these years I have learned a lot about many of the poster's on this site. And of course their players. I know PG loves Bacon. I know CD loves Coastal Carolina and who his son's first room mate there was. I know what CD likes to do during his down time. I know TR loved Rock N Roll. And I know what he loved to eat before he went to bed. And there is so much more.

So for me what really makes this site special is I get to know people. I get to watch them change over the years. I get to know their kids. I get to listen to their wisdom and even when I don't agree, no especially when we don't agree I kind of think I learn something. I get to look in the mirror and see if I don't need to take a different look at that deal.

I remember when I first started on this site. I didn't really enjoy listening to parents gripe and b tch about coaches. I came back pretty hard and was closed minded. But the more I listened the more I learned. And I really learned it didn't matter if I agreed with how they felt or not, it was how they felt. And I needed to learn why they felt that way and if there was something I could learn from it to be a better coach. And yes the parents on this site made me a better coach. And some of those conversations that made me a better coach didn't have everything to do with baseball. Sometimes they had nothing to do with a game.

I can tell you this, my opinion on some baseball topics when my kids were 12 are not even close to what they are now. We are strong because we are a diverse group with varying opinions. We are open and honest and willing to share things to help others in the journey. And sometimes that help ends up appearing to have nothing to do with a game. But that game is what brought us here. But for many it's not what keeps us here.

Welcome BigJay.

 

Matt13 posted:

Some times the question one asks isn't the one that needs answering.

I agree with that one.

People don't realize, sometimes these questions asked raise other questions. I guess sometimes people read things into what's written differently.  

Coach May,

That was a very nice post. TY, we have known each other for a very long time.

Some of our new posters, IMO, don't really realize how this place isn't just a baseball site. Just as an example, next week while in NY to watch a qualifier for the WBC, I will meet with a friend who is one of the moms who used to post here, whose son made the team, who also played at Coastal with CDs son.  We have known each other for many years.

That's how it works around here, usually.

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