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How will you teach hitting?

S swingbuster1,000+ posts
As my hair grows gray I look back at the many approaches I have seen and used and I draw some conclusions. One is that maybe you have to use different methods for different levels of athletes.

Some younger kids and those with less ability to synch with the pitcher might need to start in a position closer to the launch point.... Wider stance, shorter stride, bat already cocked. You can win some LL titles like this and Garciaparra did well too,

The high level swing has more arm and hand action. When pitching the thumbs break down. In batting, the same move occurs as the top hand cocks and internally rotates the real elbow.
( Thanks Tom Guerry) The cocking of the bat and internal loading of the shoulders synch with the stride to balance it , limit it , and work opposite of it to create dymanic stretch and torque. It is easy when the pattern is modeled after the pitching motion and gives the most power with less head movement and less tugging on the handle. You can handle oppo easily.

Your player must be able to start his motion in synch with the pitcher. Many young players cannot/ will not do this as it puts them in the line of flight to get hit if the pitch is off line. Unfortunately the optimum hitting position is the most vulnerable for the batter because his muscle activity is on offense not defense

These guys will have to 'shorten up". I define this is getting cloer to the launch position, take away the arm and hand action some of the stride, and they will lose some oppo potential and some power. The amount they lose is masked by the aluminum bat....but it is a lot.
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S swingbuster1,000+ posts
Texan,

The arm and hand action starts with a very very relaxed upper body in constrast to a preloaded position. This alone shifts the focus to the lower body and the hip/hand nuero connection tends to lead the load. The upper body is forced to load dynamically from this starting position and the timing like all timing cannot be taught.

You read about "when the pitcher starts to show you his butt;you show him yours etc". But can we really teach that? I think it is about a good swing then much live arm practice. We all know about when it should happen and sometimes we tell kids that but does it help...I don't know?

As far as change ups, they will always get their share of people out. Even for no stride , if the arm action doesn't match the ball speed your still screwed up. While hitters are practicing great mechanics so are the pitchers. That is why it is a great game.

Tom Writes:
The rear arm action sequence is the same as in the overhand throw where you break the hands with elbows up and palms down (or out) which kinesiologically you might describe as abduction and internal rotation of the throwing/back arm (humerus).This arm action interrupts/prevents any excessive backturn/counterrotation as the bat is coked. The sequence then goes on to prduce "pre-launch tht" as the bat turns back to the catcher/begins to uncok,then "tht at launch" which optimizes trunk coil dynamics (creates "x-factor stretch") to set up consistent and quick unloading.

When you can dig out what is happening here it is simple and it IS how many great hitters swing if you look frame by frame. Even Babe Ruth.

For those that will never teach arm action do one thing for me. Put your bat barrel in the 45 degree launch slot and measure how far your lead elbow is from your left pect muscle. Now put the hands stacked almost vertical and close to your right collar bone...WHERE IS YOUR LEAD ELBOW? it is almost touching your pect now. Which is tension free? How much tension is in your arm at hand break pitching? Would it help to put yuour hand back in the power throwing psoition and muscle up?

When you start the bat in the 45 slot then go vertical and back to the 45 launch slot your lead elbow works tight to the pect muscle as the stride begins and the hips are rotating and the lead shoulder locks into the rotation before the bat starts to flatten at true launch. The hips are ahead of the hands naturally just like pitching. Imagine how speed would be lost pitching if your hips and your shoulders turning to throw at exactly the same time and in the same phase.

Some say learn to turn over and over to help hitter get it. But how? You will learn to turn when what your doing helps you to turn. Projecting the bat barrel correctly through the zone aids give you the feeling that the turn is connected and working without rushing to the ball. It compliments the turn and follow through. You cannot take a bad swing and practice it until you turn well. Your working against mother nature and physics.

There is a strong tendency to chicken wing and tug the handle in many players..especially RH hitters that throw RH. They seem to be benefited by this arm and hand action.
Last edited by swingbuster
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
quote:
I'm having trouble with the equating of the pitcher's break (thumbs down) with the batter's swing. Just not following that.



When a batter cocks the bat the top hand thumb work downward and the rear elbow upward. Good pitching is thumbs down at hand break and rear elbow works up. Same move.........What follows is the hips coil as they begin their stride..same move.Rear elbow internally rotate..same move

Sorry for the long post, I had time to kill Razz
Last edited by swingbuster
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
Fungo, I am only me, I assure you......I have no other identity on this board.....

I consider Swingbuster a good and sincere guy.....However, we do differ on some aspects of hitting technique.....Linear and myself probably totally agree as we are both students of a person we greatly respect whose name cannot be mentioned on this board.....And, our belief system is a result of what we have learned from this person through many hours of listening and trial and error........I have grown tired of arguing with people about this stuff......Linear is much more resilient than me and I applaud him for his efforts......There is much to be learned from him.......If people would just listen and trial and error......
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
Timing is a brain effort.....What's important is when the front foot goes down, not up......If the body is moving efficiently, the brain will know when to put the front foot down whether the pitch is fastball or offspeed.....It's about learning to move the middle properly (weight shift momentum and rotation).......And, it won't work without connection by the hands and arms.....There is no rotation without connection......When the hands and arms go independent and lose the connection with the shoulders, the link is broken and the rotation stops......
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
quote:
It's also interesting that you didn't comment on the pause in the load/unload that you teach.


If you hand any novice player a bat and say hit this ball coming at you maybe 1 in 1000 will get his front foot down on time and rotate into it's path( Bonds description of his swing not mine).

Breaking the steps down is a way to teach players to learn to turn. You cannot rotate when the front foot is in the air at bat launch. It is a drill station and a very popular one based on sales and currect use.

The icing on the cake ( as evidenced by many Hall of Famers) is the synchronization of an upper body that also learns how to turn inconcert with the lower body. The arm and hand action is the "running start" of the upper body to get in orbit around the core move. If done improperly it is disaster and results in many of baseballs worst swing flaws

Just as the hips coil , the short stride is taken and the hips uncoil, there is a similar pattern ( available to those that chose to use and learn it) that the upper body uses to interface with the lower to make the total movement the most effective.

If you cannot see it in 100s of clips then you do not chose to see it and that is fine. Or maybe those in your charge hit well without it and thats fine too. THere are some clips that support that style too.
Last edited by swingbuster
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
If you cannot see it in 100s of clips then you do not chose to see it and that is fine. Or maybe those in your charge hit well without it and thats fine too. THere are some clips that support that style too.


Yes, many HOF's get/got a running start. Yes, many mlb clips will show the running start. Just as many will show something different.

The problem is you teach arm action as the key. The difference maker. The thing most players are missing. The thing that "if they'd just do this" they'd have success.

That couldn't be further from the truth. What the best do is load their center and create momentum by carrying the load into launch. And then, rotate with good connection.

Most call this carrying move a stride. The word stride is so far from accurate that it is has the same value as "arm action" when it comes to hitting. It has none. Most interpret a stride as similar to a "walking" stride. Simply getting momentum from which to swing with. Its very different from that. In fact, the feet don't even have to move to carry the momentum forward. In fact, something else happens which causes the "stride" or "momentum" shift. In other words, there really isn't a stride. There is a carrying move that moves the foot. If in fact it moves at all.

The actual "move" or "cause" is up the chain. What most see, the foot move, (and call it a stride), is a result of a something else going on.

And this carrying move, or momentum shift, and it's immediate unload at foot touch down is key. And your device teaches something completely different.

Pay attention to the time between foot touch down of a hitter and the launch of his swing as compared to touch down of a player using your device and the launch of his swing.

Maybe, if they hit the ball on the way up it would have value. Otherwise......you're not helping anyone. And a very good case can be made that you are hurting hitters.

Your interest in arm action defines why you think the device is good. The problem is, arm action will not make you a hitter. Learning to properly load, carry and unload the center will.

Your obsession with "hands back" isn't most hitters problem. Most hitters problem is they don't understand the load and carry move. If they did, their hands wouldn't be a problem. At least "hands back" wouldn't be a problem.

You mention your success helping youth hitters by moving their hands back and preloading them. Not a bad move for a coach and his youth hitters. At least it gets them to have some success. The problem is, at that level, they rarely face the need for, and notice their lack of, swing quickness. So, your band aid works.

But, as they advance, they will have to learn something completely different to be successful. They will have to learn to load their center, create momentum by carrying the load into foot touch and launch with good connected rotation. Otherwise they will never develop the swing quickness to "catch up" to the pitching speeds they have to face.
Last edited by Linear
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Linear

For a guy who degrades every other approach you have shown us nothing

You, and bluedog , are still shills for the guy you cannot mention--he of the claymotion images

Show us something and perhaps we can believe you

Based on what you have shown I wouldn't let my grandmother take lessons from you for no cost.
L Linear500+ posts
Mommy, mommy.....

The record will show that TR threw the first punch, I countered, and now he's whining about it.

Swingbuster and I are/were having our discussion. Each was supporting their views with substance, and each poster/lurker could make a decision on their own about who to follow. OR, unlike some, could decide they don't care and read elsewhere.

How about we short circuit the entire discussion and just assume It's and Glove Man threw their punches, I countered them into oblivion, and then mommy told us to stop.

It will save everyone time.
Last edited by Linear
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
Linear...please explain how you teach players to "load the center". what are your key teaching points you tell the guys

I am obsessed with "how the hands get back". Certain movement patterns assist the shoulder loading making that move more natural for many players.

The shoulder and hips work in concert and how can the center be discussed if it doesn't include both...does it?

If the stride moves weight to keep the center of gravity under the rotation what moves the shoulders back?

How do you tell people to do this?
Last edited by swingbuster
S SBK500+ posts
I found this post of interest and enjoyed the opinions and the give and take.

Discussing hitting in person is tough enough, online is nearly impossible but it is still interesting and thought provoking at times.

However, just like it used to be when I frequented more, some people can’t leave the thread alone even though he has nothing substantive to share. It’s the same type of garbage that wore me out from posting.

This is a great site for the most part! Some add a little humor; some add a little logic and some people share their experience. However a few people seem to think they need to jump into every thread just to see their words on the screen, I guess?

It’s too bad because not only does it mess up that thread for others; it also wrecks the thread wrecker’s credibility in the threads they may actually have something to contribute.

I remember others using the analogy that it might make sense to approach this forum like a buffet. It’s all right to pick and choose. You don’t have to eat everything, every time. If it doesn’t make you sick, it will probably make others around you sick.

Merry Christmas to all.
Last edited by SBK
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
Swingbuster, I won't indulge in this topic too much since I've vowed to not go mud wrestling. However, we load with a slight (SLIGHT) rotation of the shoulders. We also have gone almost exclusivly to "Heal-Toe" for our base. This enables us to "coil" or "flex" and be ready to uncoil. We picked this up from the baseball Cardinals. Pujos and Edmonds both do this in their own ways. Listen as they both hit one day on the field.
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
quote:
Swingbuster, I won't indulge in this topic too much since I've vowed to not go mud wrestling. However, we load with a slight (SLIGHT) rotation of the shoulders. We also have gone almost exclusivly to "Heal-Toe" for our base. This enables us to "coil" or "flex" and be ready to uncoil. We picked this up from the baseball Cardinals. Pujos and Edmonds both do this in their own ways. Listen as they both hit one day on the field.


Thanks for an honest, sincerely reply
My simple point is this. You can keep your same base( I personally like it) and experiment
( yes they will not break) with different hand positions and bat slots. **** the bat
( tipping toward the pitcher)out from the rear collar bone at about the same height. Have the bottom hand under the top and the bat in a verticle plane ( as seen from behind).This will facilitate a great shoulder load ( as natural as throwing) and all you have to say is "start it there and relax your hands and hit". Watch what happens .....
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
bluedog

I have to say the feeling is mutual--between you and linear, I have seen nothing-- at least swingbuster brings something to the table and I am not one who is into what I term "hitting gadgets" .He is realistic and makes sense and he has a purpose

You and your alter ego simply regurgiate what the claymation dolls show us--nothing at all original.

As for being lost I think not. At least I do not shill for others
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
Swingbuster, we want the bat in a 45 degree angle past the hitter's ear. We've had success with that. However, we won't change a hitter until they prove to us that they need changing. We use the top shoulders and hands as a unit. They rotate slightly all together. I can't stress enough slight rotation. Some people try to do this and move a couple of inches. That destroys the whole thing. We do teach hands and I know several here do not. However, we teach hands only when it becomes apparent that they are trying to swing around the ball and not to the ball. To set the hands where we want them, often all we really have to do is the rolled up towel under the lead arm's armpit. As per the back shoulder, I think someone alluded to that in this thread. We don't coach that other than to say relaxed and comfortable.

Oh, the bat at a 45 degree - here is how we arrived at that. Say you were in an alley with a bat and a bad man came along to attack you. How would you hold that bat if you had to fight for your life. I'm betting you would load it in a 45 degree angle. We simply are letting our hitters do what their instincts tell them to do. JMHO!
Last edited by CoachB25
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
...all we really have to do is the rolled up towel under the lead arm's armpit...


It's impossible to execute a high level swing with a towel being held in the lead arm armpit.

The lead arm (upper arm) must be perpendicular to the spine for maximum rotational efficiency and swing quickness.

Without that you lose the box and the body's ability to properly transfer energy up the chain.

By holding the lead arm down (holding something in the armpit) you can not effectively meet the proper pitch plane. By that I mean you can not transfer maximum energy to the ball while still meeting the pitch plane.

Beyond that a low lead arm is a major cause of early roll over.

If you want to hold a volleyball or basketball under the armpit, maybe. But, not a towel.
Last edited by Linear
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
Linear, to each their own. Disagree but then again, that is the norm for most things. Perhaps you know a better method. This works well for us. You can reference our hitting stats anytime. You know the site where those stats are kept. Pressure under the armpit? We are not putting pressure there. They aren't trying to get their elbow flush to their side. BTW, do you realize how big a towel rolled up is. In no way is their elbow next to their side.

We seem to be just fine getting our lead arm in the right place.


Perpendicular to the spine - to me Perpendicular means a 90 degree angle. So you teach to point your lead elbow to the pitcher?
Last edited by CoachB25
S swingbuster1,000+ posts
Linear writes...It's impossible to execute a high level swing with a towel being held in the lead arm armpit.

The lead arm (upper arm) must be perpendicular to the spine for maximum rotational efficiency and swing quickness""



It is NOT impossible to begin a high level swing there. Thats is what you don't see. Getting the bat out of plane on purpose forces the hands to move back , the bat to flatten, as you launch and is what increases torque and bat speed through hips shoulder separation. Why doesn't the pitcher just start with this hand back in the throwing position , turn and throw. What is the purpose of over lapping the upperbody take away and the lower body hips rotation to the plate

Starting on the 45 works for some and for some they are actually too quick to the ball and tug the knob. It is hard to project the barrel from there. You also have a tendency to start early and more difficulty with offspeed.

Again see Babe Ruth, Bo Jackson, Chipper, Kirby Puckett, Piazza, Giambi,Glaus. If you look close many start on 45, lower the lead elbow, cocking and making the bat go out of plane toward vertical and return to the 45 slot( as always ) at launch. Their hips **** , shoulders load, bat knob comes out toward oppo batter box, the barrel is perp to to ball flight.

If you have a kid that is not performing up to par just let them try it. It takes one minute to switch back.
Last edited by swingbuster
L Linear500+ posts
quote:
...Thats is what you don't see.


The arguments you make are laughable at best.

Does CoachB25's drill (holding a towel under the lead armpit) allow for the player to drop the towel?

If so why do it?

It's impossible to HOLD the folded towel there and get the arm perpendicular to the spine at any point in the swing. Takes too much pressure to hold the towel and deal with the forces generated by the swing.

Finally, a still picture is the worst when it comes to analyzing what a hitter did or did not do. But, for anyone interested, this hitter is totally disconnected as he hits the ball. Not an ALL bad thing IF he made a great adjustment on the fly. And, he may have hit this ball out of the park. But, what is demonstrated in that still photo is not a high quality swing.
Last edited by Linear
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