quote:...[i'm sure the
gang will jump on this]...
If you still have posting privileges at sun up we can debate.
If you still have posting privileges at sun up we can debate.
If you still have posting privileges at sun up we can debate.
My fan club gets larger and just look at the individuals in it
Thanx to you fine gentlemen during this holiday season for the kind words
J bags--thanx for the compliment--
LOL--amazing how it goes---
Happy New year
Thanx to you fine gentlemen during this holiday season for the kind words
J bags--thanx for the compliment--
LOL--amazing how it goes---
Happy New year
linear,
great post on mechanics and egos. you are 100% right on this. i think more often in youth leagues and the "elite" travel teams but theres plenty of it on the high school level too. its a trap that im sure all of us fall into with different areas of the game but need to do our best to avoid. great point.
great post on mechanics and egos. you are 100% right on this. i think more often in youth leagues and the "elite" travel teams but theres plenty of it on the high school level too. its a trap that im sure all of us fall into with different areas of the game but need to do our best to avoid. great point.
Southern writes
"Is this where the arms, and hands add to it?
Arm and hand action is about a pattern of movement that can affect the loading of the shoulders.
In regards to bat speed the arm and hand action is discussed in reference to a negative move...how to get the hands back and on an inside /out path through properly loading the shoulder unit.
This "arm and hand action" is not used considering or discussing the true swing after launch as a rule
The eternal debate is whether this arm and hand action is equal to a more simple backwards move. It envolves the players conscience ability to move his hands back and stay loaded until toe touch vs. putting the bat in a location that he MUST move his shoulders back in order to hit putting it on auto-pilot.
If the hands start in and to then the brain knows they must go back and away. It is a similar pattern that you see at "hand break" pitching from the stretch. This move gets overlapped by the hips rotating and turning toward the target and torque is created in the midsection. (again similar to pitching)
The debates goes to an argument that having the hands move in the simplest pattern( almost preloaded) is QUICKER( an still fast enough) vs a dynamic path the increases nuero stretch factors that yield more bat speed
( which it does by the way). Opponents say a fast bat that misses the ball is useless.
There are hand path issues and timing issues too, so it will never be solved. Your only benefit derived is that with study and consideration you will likely pick up some points of interest and learn a few things of value.
You will endure a few battles along the way but welcome just the same
"Is this where the arms, and hands add to it?
Arm and hand action is about a pattern of movement that can affect the loading of the shoulders.
In regards to bat speed the arm and hand action is discussed in reference to a negative move...how to get the hands back and on an inside /out path through properly loading the shoulder unit.
This "arm and hand action" is not used considering or discussing the true swing after launch as a rule
The eternal debate is whether this arm and hand action is equal to a more simple backwards move. It envolves the players conscience ability to move his hands back and stay loaded until toe touch vs. putting the bat in a location that he MUST move his shoulders back in order to hit putting it on auto-pilot.
If the hands start in and to then the brain knows they must go back and away. It is a similar pattern that you see at "hand break" pitching from the stretch. This move gets overlapped by the hips rotating and turning toward the target and torque is created in the midsection. (again similar to pitching)
The debates goes to an argument that having the hands move in the simplest pattern( almost preloaded) is QUICKER( an still fast enough) vs a dynamic path the increases nuero stretch factors that yield more bat speed
( which it does by the way). Opponents say a fast bat that misses the ball is useless.
There are hand path issues and timing issues too, so it will never be solved. Your only benefit derived is that with study and consideration you will likely pick up some points of interest and learn a few things of value.
You will endure a few battles along the way but welcome just the same
Swingbuster, very impressive!
Many of today’s hitters are better because of better technique employed. If you or your hitters are not taking advantage of better techniques today or are resisting change, than you are missing the boat. The problem is that many of the improvements are subtle and most are not obvious enough to be understood by many.
If you disagree with the above, than I ask you to explain why baseball is so much different than say, basketball. Would anyone disagree that basketball has seen much change? Could you imagine seeing a player shoot like they used to with two hand push shots or many other old time basketball dribbling techniques?
I guess that is why some of us get a little frustrated with the many so called baseball people who we think would know better. We can’t understand why they still teach hitters the baseball equivalent of the two handed push shot.
If you disagree with the above, than I ask you to explain why baseball is so much different than say, basketball. Would anyone disagree that basketball has seen much change? Could you imagine seeing a player shoot like they used to with two hand push shots or many other old time basketball dribbling techniques?
I guess that is why some of us get a little frustrated with the many so called baseball people who we think would know better. We can’t understand why they still teach hitters the baseball equivalent of the two handed push shot.
I would like to go back to the original question " How will you teach hitting?"
very simple-- one on one-- no gimmicks, no gadgets-- one on one explaining and showing to the player ( regardless of age) what he is doing wrong
Keep in mind that each player is unique unto himself so "cookie cutter" methods will not and do not work across the board
Sometimes we try to get too darn scientific-- baseball is a game of "feel and reaction" not physics and cyber talk--there is no way a .200 hitter becomes a .300 hitter--he just ain't got it physically and mentally
very simple-- one on one-- no gimmicks, no gadgets-- one on one explaining and showing to the player ( regardless of age) what he is doing wrong
Keep in mind that each player is unique unto himself so "cookie cutter" methods will not and do not work across the board
Sometimes we try to get too darn scientific-- baseball is a game of "feel and reaction" not physics and cyber talk--there is no way a .200 hitter becomes a .300 hitter--he just ain't got it physically and mentally
I agree with TR that baseball gets too scientific, but I also think that it gets too generic. I always hear "see the ball, hit the ball" then someone else says "make sure you're right knee is perpendicular to the alignement of the shoulders". I don't think neither of those helps. I think the specificty lie in the middle somewhere. Some players need more specific instruction, some need more general instruction.
quote:..I don't think neither of those helps.
I agree.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
I would like to go back to the original question " How will you teach hitting?"
very simple-- one on one-- no gimmicks, no gadgets-- one on one explaining and showing to the player ( regardless of age) what he is doing wrong.
TR really thinks he's making a point when he says this. I think it's approaching 50-60 times he's posted this gem.
Of course, while we're posting this stuff it's the equivalent of a bunch of coaches sitting around a table discussing fundamentals. None of us, at the moment of the discussion is teaching. Yet, we all (at least most of us) do teach. And we teach one on one just like anyone teaching hitting.
It's the best he can come up with I guess. Satisfies his need to type.
quote:Originally posted by Linear:
A major mistake 95% of all coaches make is searching for batspeed improperly. They search for the fastest bat at the expense of quickness. And, they look good for a while. Whether that is the youth league for many or the high school level for some. They help a kid reach top batspeed numbers and in so doing make him a worse hitter.
Because, at the level where your athletic ability is higher than your opponents, any mechanics will do as long as the bat is fast.
But, at such time that your athletic ability is no better than everyone else's, IF your mechanics are poor, you're doomed. Retirment time.
I've heard numerous posters say "you don't mess with someone who's hitting". Well, you're enabling his failure IF you know something about his future and don't tell him and don't ask him to (make him) work on it. And, this is 95% of all amateur baseball.
Because, most coaches aren't in it for player development. They love trophies. Their egos are really what they are about. They can't take a chance on "helping" a kid (which may mean 2 steps back before taking 1 step forward) because that will hurt their chances in league or districts or whatever.
Linear,
I read this - and as always - test the intent of the message to the reality.
The reality I see here in this part of the country is exactly the opposite of what you describe.
95% of the coaches I have seen here at the high school/travel team and college level do a great job of developing players - and it is their main intent.
That is what confuses me so much about your posts - you can be so technically articulate about hitting - and then you drop off the cliff with nonsense about coaches you know nothing about - have never met - and have never watched.
Its like cooking a really good meal - and then pouring motor oil on it right before you serve it up.
I can't help the fact that you don't understand the message. But since you don't, you won't reach the same conclusion.
Linear
The question is "How will you teach hitting?"
I answered--I truly apologize that I do not know as much as you think you know--
You do it your way and I will do it mine--I think I will be successful--you are the who knows it all-- but nobody knows anything about you other than you try to make everyone think you are the only one who is ever right.
One other thing--at least I do it my way,not the way I have been brainwashed to do it such as you are-- be original for once and always realize that every kid is different--no one way works for all of them
The question is "How will you teach hitting?"
I answered--I truly apologize that I do not know as much as you think you know--
You do it your way and I will do it mine--I think I will be successful--you are the who knows it all-- but nobody knows anything about you other than you try to make everyone think you are the only one who is ever right.
One other thing--at least I do it my way,not the way I have been brainwashed to do it such as you are-- be original for once and always realize that every kid is different--no one way works for all of them
quote:Originally posted by Linear:
I can't help the fact that you don't understand the message. But since you don't, you won't reach the same conclusion.
On the contrary, I understand the message. Actually messages - plural.
The "hitting stuff" - although not new or revolutionary - is well articulated and, at times, interesting to read.
The "coaching stuff" makes virtually no sense and is in direct contrast to what I see just about every day.
I truly believe that the marketing approach you use to disseminate information is very poor.
Just my opinion.
quote:
The "hitting stuff" - although not new or revolutionary - is well articulated and, at times, interesting to read.
Trust me.......You don't get it. Your response would be different if you did.
quote:I truly believe that the marketing approach you use to disseminate information is very poor...
I'm not selling anything. Don't care if anyone "buys".
But what I describe is the truth.
The proof is in the numbers. Millians of kids begin at say age 5 or 6. By the time they are 24 less than 100 are playing mlb.
Coaches line up to coach little league, babe ruth league, legion ball, high school etc etc. Add up all the teams all over the country and they can't get more than 100 to play mlb at age 24??? Now that's a bad track record.
And you expect me to believe you and the others "get it".
You're sadly mistaken.
quote:Coaches line up to coach little league, babe ruth league, legion ball, high school etc etc. Add up all the teams all over the country and they can't get more than 100 to play mlb at age 24??? Now that's a bad track record.
Linear,
How can teaching something at the little league level change the number of roster spots at the MLB level?
Don't mind him folks, the little white van with the nice little sirens the cool jacket with the long arms will be stopping by his house in the morning. 
de·lu·sion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-lzhn)
n.
A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
In Psychiatry- A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.
Why did you quit coaching? It appears you could have become THE most prolific coach in the history of the amatuer ranks, I mean with sending ALL your students to the show and all. What a shame you gave up on the game.
What kind of establishment doesn't serve chicken tenders?
de·lu·sion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-lzhn)
n.
A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
In Psychiatry- A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.
Why did you quit coaching? It appears you could have become THE most prolific coach in the history of the amatuer ranks, I mean with sending ALL your students to the show and all. What a shame you gave up on the game.
What kind of establishment doesn't serve chicken tenders?
Linear,
Actually - I dont believe you get "it".
And yes - you are selling your ideas.
Or at least attempting to do so.
You may not think you are - but you are.
Poorly - I might add.
As for talent in this country - it just seems to be getting better and better - every year - at all ages. I am surprised you have not noticed this. Someone is doing something right. Actually - alot of things right. Perhaps a trip to the field - and out of the lab - may help.
As for Fungo's comment - I agree 100%.
What does the number of roster spots in MLB have to do with youth training?
Actually - I dont believe you get "it".
And yes - you are selling your ideas.
Or at least attempting to do so.
You may not think you are - but you are.
Poorly - I might add.
As for talent in this country - it just seems to be getting better and better - every year - at all ages. I am surprised you have not noticed this. Someone is doing something right. Actually - alot of things right. Perhaps a trip to the field - and out of the lab - may help.
As for Fungo's comment - I agree 100%.
What does the number of roster spots in MLB have to do with youth training?
quote:Originally posted by Mr3000:
I agree with TR that baseball gets too scientific, but I also think that it gets too generic. I always hear "see the ball, hit the ball" then someone else says "make sure you're right knee is perpendicular to the alignement of the shoulders". I don't think neither of those helps. I think the specificty lie in the middle somewhere. Some players need more specific instruction, some need more general instruction.
The above quote is what Mr. 3000 wrote regarding hitting and how he agreed with TR about some coaches trying to be to scientific and others trying to be to generic.
quote:Originally posted by Linear:quote:..I don't think neither of those helps.
I agree.
The quote above is how Linear replied.
Now, I have placed the actually thought that Linear is refering to in Mr. 3000 message in bold. Now a real coach would have explained why they agree with the statement in question. What they would be focusing on and How they would go about teaching it different and what they would be looking for. However, Linear just gives a one liner about how he agrees but offers no explanation.
Scooter
quote:...Now, I have placed the actually thought...
No, you didn't "get" the first jab and I doubt if you "get" this one.
quote:Originally posted by Linear:quote:...Now, I have placed the actually thought...
No, you didn't "get" the first jab and I doubt if you "get" this one.
Cool, try harder with your insult buddy. You are just back stepping now since you have been put on the spot. Oh by the way, try and remove your self from a certain person's back side and maybe you will comprehend what I am getting at with my post.
Oh yeah, Why do we drive on a parkway and park in a driveway?
Scooter
Linear,
Your relentless criticism of the youth coaches has got me thinking, I wonder how many major league baseball players started out in youth baseball. I would venture to say that most, if not all of them did.
Your relentless criticism of the youth coaches has got me thinking, I wonder how many major league baseball players started out in youth baseball. I would venture to say that most, if not all of them did.
As I said before, what a shame that Mr. Schenck (Linear) retired from coaching. If he'd have kept coaching we now have 45 MLB teams, all full of his former students!
how could you turn your back on MLB like that Richard?!?!?
how could you turn your back on MLB like that Richard?!?!?
quote:Originally posted by Fungo:
Linear,
Your relentless criticism of the youth coaches has got me thinking, I wonder how many major league baseball players started out in youth baseball. I would venture to say that most, if not all of them did.
How many criminals started out in jail???
Why Ask Why??
Absolutely Gloveman. Its all in the preparation.
Coachric
Coachric
Linear,
Thanks for your example. VERY good. "How many people in jail started out as criminals?". I would say just about all of them. Thanks for proving my point!
Fungo
quote:How many criminals started out in jail???
Thanks for your example. VERY good. "How many people in jail started out as criminals?". I would say just about all of them. Thanks for proving my point!
Fungo
LOL
That was pretty funny.
Stepped right into it.
That was pretty funny.
Stepped right into it.
Fungo
I said...."How many criminals started in jail"?
Of course, it won't make your point so you change it to "How many people in jail started out as criminals".
Sorry, I'm not buying your *** backwards logic.
For "followers" I don't recommend you drink the Kool Aid.
The point I'm making is the vast majority of players that make it, can not point to anything but their own trial and error process that got them there. What got them there was learned on their own, and with most cases their dad. Again, vast majority.
So much a vast majority, that not only can most players not point to a coach who made the difference in their understanding of "how to get the barrel there quicker" but most coaches, in fact, were obstacles themselves in the learning process. Not facilitators. Not teachers. But, obstacles.
The things most coaches provide is opportunities to play. Which is very valuable. What they don't provide because they refuse to study is "skill" knowledge, in particular "hitting skill knowledge". But they really like the accolades when they live in a community that have kids who work there butts off, trial and error, with dad, and then play at their school. Now, they like to say "look at me!! Look what "I" can do." ""I" can put him in the 1 hole, him in the 2 hole, him in the 3 hole etc, he can pitch, he can field and....oh my god....look what "I" can do." Right B25? Well, only about 95 out of a 100 can look at 20 players and pick the best 9.....What really are you doing?
What good is it if someone provides an opportunity while at the same time unknowingly placing obstacles to one's success. And, it's these obstacles that cause the "baseball track record" to be so bad. Plain and simple, bad coaching. About 40% of major leaguers are from other countries even though we have all the wealth, facilities, etc etc. If there was any decent rate of good knowledge dissimination that figure would be much lower.
It's
Ever have an original thought? You remind me of the "hit me" guy in One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest.
Long and the short of it is you "lineup card maker outers" that call yourselves coaches, have no clue what is involved in a high level swing. Not only have no clue, but want no clue. Which is the worse sin a coach can commit.
But you do like trophies.....right B25?
Isn't it about time for your self strokes?
I said...."How many criminals started in jail"?
Of course, it won't make your point so you change it to "How many people in jail started out as criminals".
Sorry, I'm not buying your *** backwards logic.
For "followers" I don't recommend you drink the Kool Aid.
The point I'm making is the vast majority of players that make it, can not point to anything but their own trial and error process that got them there. What got them there was learned on their own, and with most cases their dad. Again, vast majority.
So much a vast majority, that not only can most players not point to a coach who made the difference in their understanding of "how to get the barrel there quicker" but most coaches, in fact, were obstacles themselves in the learning process. Not facilitators. Not teachers. But, obstacles.
The things most coaches provide is opportunities to play. Which is very valuable. What they don't provide because they refuse to study is "skill" knowledge, in particular "hitting skill knowledge". But they really like the accolades when they live in a community that have kids who work there butts off, trial and error, with dad, and then play at their school. Now, they like to say "look at me!! Look what "I" can do." ""I" can put him in the 1 hole, him in the 2 hole, him in the 3 hole etc, he can pitch, he can field and....oh my god....look what "I" can do." Right B25? Well, only about 95 out of a 100 can look at 20 players and pick the best 9.....What really are you doing?
What good is it if someone provides an opportunity while at the same time unknowingly placing obstacles to one's success. And, it's these obstacles that cause the "baseball track record" to be so bad. Plain and simple, bad coaching. About 40% of major leaguers are from other countries even though we have all the wealth, facilities, etc etc. If there was any decent rate of good knowledge dissimination that figure would be much lower.
It's
Ever have an original thought? You remind me of the "hit me" guy in One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest.
Long and the short of it is you "lineup card maker outers" that call yourselves coaches, have no clue what is involved in a high level swing. Not only have no clue, but want no clue. Which is the worse sin a coach can commit.
But you do like trophies.....right B25?
Isn't it about time for your self strokes?
Linear,
You stepped into the poop. LOL
As for "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" - Was that DeVito? If so - yup - I look just like him.
LOL
You stepped into the poop. LOL
As for "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" - Was that DeVito? If so - yup - I look just like him.
LOL
FWIW ..the latest info on hitting which I find most desciptive has been evolving for 3-4 years. Now I know baseball has been around for a while but many people are not up on the latest stuff. I will let you guys argue whether it is good or bad.
The group that could use a brushing up can include anybody. A childhood friend of mine just stopped by and we talked hitting. He was interested in the new methods of teaching rotational hitting as he still dabbles in it. He pitched for the Twins in a World Series, played for Atlanta and several other organizations.
My forays into camp settings does reveal some mind numbing approaches to the swing that have kids looking for clover. If I had found that those presentations had the answers then I would have stopped searching and none of you guys would be here either
The group that could use a brushing up can include anybody. A childhood friend of mine just stopped by and we talked hitting. He was interested in the new methods of teaching rotational hitting as he still dabbles in it. He pitched for the Twins in a World Series, played for Atlanta and several other organizations.
My forays into camp settings does reveal some mind numbing approaches to the swing that have kids looking for clover. If I had found that those presentations had the answers then I would have stopped searching and none of you guys would be here either
quote:The point I'm making is the vast majority of players that make it, can not point to anything but their own trial and error process that got them there. What got them there was learned on their own, and with most cases their dad. Again, vast majority.
Let me get this straight players have reached their goals by their own trial and error and not by no coach's helping hand. Well, I guess that puts you into the same category as the rest of us. Because if the vast number of players reach these goals without our help, then the vast number you have coached have reached their goals without your help. So basically, your belief and coaching ability is no better than the rest of ours especially if players reach their goals without any help except for dad.
quote:The things most coaches provide is opportunities to play. Which is very valuable. What they don't provide because they refuse to study is "skill" knowledge, in particular "hitting skill knowledge". But they really like the accolades when they live in a community that have kids who work there butts off, trial and error, with dad, and then play at their school. Now, they like to say "look at me!! Look what "I" can do." ""I" can put him in the 1 hole, him in the 2 hole, him in the 3 hole etc, he can pitch, he can field and....oh my god....look what "I" can do." Right B25? Well, only about 95 out of a 100 can look at 20 players and pick the best 9.....What really are you doing?
Please dont paint the kettle black, cause you stated in a post the other day that only good players can comprehend what you teach. So basically, you are syaing you only take advanced players that already have a good foundation and tweak it here and there and then proclaim you are an expert, which is no different then what you just stated. Anyone can do that with a little reading about Epstein's system. So what are you really doing?
quote:And, it's these obstacles that cause the "baseball track record" to be so bad. Plain and simple, bad coaching.
Maybe, it is just because kids here in the United States have more to choose from than the other countries. I am sorry that you are angry at the system of coaching because you weren't given a shot to go further. I was blacked-balled by my high school coach cause I wasn't a good ole boy but I admire all coaches and teachers because they are the back bone of our future leaders along with some good parental support and love.
quote:Ever have an original thought? You remind me of the "hit me" guy in One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest.
Have you ever had an orginial thought yourself?
You are always blasting on Coach Butler and I think it is jealousy. Why? because he is successful at getting players to the next level and you just take advanced players and tweak their mechanics and they give you no accolades for their progress. You may not won't them to tell you thank you and you may say you don't do it for that but deep inside everyone wants the acknowledgement of helping others reach their goals
Scooter
Scooter
I offered it to him last year-- come and do a hitting seminar at one of our showcases--- all I got was silence--DUH !!!!!
I have your back !!!
I offered it to him last year-- come and do a hitting seminar at one of our showcases--- all I got was silence--DUH !!!!!
I have your back !!!
Trhit,
Thanks and I remember your invitation but thats was not to Linear that was to Teacherman and Linear doesn't know Teacherman....lol
Scooter
Thanks and I remember your invitation but thats was not to Linear that was to Teacherman and Linear doesn't know Teacherman....lol
Scooter
quote:...not by no coach's helping hand.
There you go again.
Did you say you're studying to be a teacher/coach?
Then again....
quote:
Any where, Any time, Any place
I can't decide where you're better suited.
and lacrosse here in the Northeast
Scooter
Then you know something we were not aware of--same ego-- same talk--same ego
Scooter
Then you know something we were not aware of--same ego-- same talk--same ego
quote:...It would be nice to have great pitching coaches and great hitting coaches all over the country, but it won't make much of a difference...
Disagree. The number of "close but" players who don't make it now, could make it with a solid "upbringing". How many of them are there?
Why do they have to spend that kind of money on showcases, tournaments etc? Because the system is set up for coaches to win trophies and say "look what I've done". Put all the best on one team so we can win. Now, lets travel all over the country for tournaments. Player development is of no interest to 95% of them. "Pick em clean quick". They use you until they have a better replacement. Then they kick you to the curb. Let's win win win.
"Coaches" don't teach. They are trophy happy.
quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
The African American kids have been left out of the game in just a short period of time, because baseball in America has become an upper middle to upper class game. When you spend $7,000-$20,000 every summer on showcases and travel teams, where do you think the African American inner city kid ends up? He ends up in a basketball or football uniform. So does the lower income level white kid. If you can't afford to showcase and travel team, your chances of a scholarship diminish, because all the college coaches go to showcases and follow big time travel teams.
S>O>C>C>ER is the problem.
Bingo!
Great post. IMO.
Linear - You may just not be in the right place.
That is definitely not the case here.
That is definitely not the case here.
I wish it were as easy as blaming the S game. As Doug pointed out, the S game is merely catering to what our kids and the parents seem to want: an easy victory with lots of praise to go around.
I've always liked a quote I read somewhere, made by a high school teacher: "Football may be the best subject taught in high school because it's the only subject we haven't tried to make easy."
I've always liked a quote I read somewhere, made by a high school teacher: "Football may be the best subject taught in high school because it's the only subject we haven't tried to make easy."
